Most out-of-place levels

[namida]

Which levels from the original games do you think are most out of place? (As in, in the wrong difficulty setting, or too early/late in the one that they're in)

Some of the ones I most thought this about:

Tricky 14 - Menacing. (The Sega Master System one). This level is quite hard compared to the others in Tricky, and I think it would've been better in Taxing, or even early (but not late) Mayhem.
Tricky 19 - Postcard from Lemmingland. Come on, this one should've been Taxing. >_>
Tricky 21 - All The 6s. While I think Tricky is right for this level, it should've been MUCH earlier in it.
Taxing 2 - Watch Out, There's Traps About. This one was just a tad too easy for Taxing. Mid-Tricky would've worked better.
Taxing 14 - Hunt The Nessy. This one should've been late Fun, or maybe early Tricky. (Or even better, absent altogether -_-")
Taxing 24 - Take A Running Jump. This level is very easy... should've been at most mid-Tricky.
Taxing 29 - How Do I Dig Up The Way. What the HECK? This level is pathetic. Late Tricky, at best.
Mayhem 8 - Last One Out Is A Rotten Egg. Too easy for Mayhem. Early Taxing, maybe.
Mayhem 17 - Stepping Stones. While Mayhem-worthy, I think it should've been much earlier in Mayhem.
Mayhem 18 - And Then There Were Four. This one would've been an ideal early Taxing level.
Mayhem 24 - All or Nothing. A luck based level this late in the game? Nah. Throw it back.
Mayhem 26 - The Steel Mines of Kessel. Would've worked well in Taxing.
Mayhem 30 - Rendezvous at the Mountain. Come on, this is WAY too easy for the final level. Maybe late Tricky or early Taxing.

[Minim]

For OhNo, These are my five levels:

Tame 20: Custom built for lemmings: Too easy for a last level
Crazy 11: No Problemming!: Too easy
Wild 5: Lemming Head: Too easy
Wicked 14: The Lemming Learning Curve: Too easy
Havoc 10: Flow Control: Either easy or impossible.

I didn't have much trouble with Tricky 19, but Tricky 26 was really difficult. Fun 13 and Tricky 2 were the first levels that stumped me.

[Proxima]

It seems the original designers had a philosophy of relaxing the difficulty at the end of each category, which seems annoying to us now when we revisit the levels, but was probably quite welcome when we solved them originally I certainly remember what it felt like to finally complete the Taxing rating, and the fact that the set concludes with the abysmally easy "How do I dig up the way?" and another "We all fall down" level really had no effect on that.

Fun looks like building up to a tough climax with two consecutive RR 99 levels, and then we get the stupidly easy "Nightmare on Lem Street" and "Lock up your lemmings". Tricky has a series of excellent levels -- then comes "Island of the Wicker people" and "Rainbow Island". Taxing has the aforementioned "How do I dig up the way?" and I agree with you that "Rendezvous at the Mountain" isn't the game's hardest level. (Much too hard for Tricky or early Taxing as you suggest, though. And the awesome title and the theme of coming together at the end do make it seem an appropriate level to finish with.) The last ten Mayhem levels also contain the very easy "All or Nothing" and "Just a Minute (part 2)", and "Going up" ain't so tough either.

If we ignore the end few levels of each category, the levels I would nominate for worst-placed are "Follow the leader" and "Pea Soup" (though as I said in another topic, I'd rather the latter were omitted entirely).

On the other hand I think "Postcard from Lemmingland" was well placed. A tough little puzzle, but it gets you out of a 20-of-everything frame of mind and into the puzzle-solving frame you need for levels like "From the Boundary Line", "Tightrope City", "Cascade" and "I have a cunning plan" that are shortly to follow. And I wouldn't move "And then there were four", which is not by any means an easy level.

[Fernito]

I'm impressed that you haven't included "Have a nice day" in your lists. I always thought it was so misplaced. The first time I played it I couldn't believe how easy it was (actually I used EXACTLY the same solution I used for the Tricky level with the same layout, which name I can't remember by now).

haha, also I'm impressed that you included Just a minute 2 and Going up in your lists. I had problems with those levels (Just a minute 2 because the platfom was missing and Going up because the long build required some precision).

[Minim]

I'm impressed that you haven't included "Have a nice day" in your lists. I always thought it was so misplaced. The first time I played it I couldn't believe how easy it was (actually I used EXACTLY the same solution I used for the Tricky level with the same layout, which name I can't remember by now).

Yes, I missed that athough I think I know the solutions you made are backroutes in that level, both not using the platform on the left.

Giga's posted one backrouted solution, but I'm guessing this is the solution which you came up with. Highlight the big space to read:

Let the first lemming build to the wall (One lemming will die) then set a blocker on the left of the platform. Make someone an athlete. Build to the right wall and turn around. Build to the left (Leaving no gaps) to create a safety bridge for the other lemmings. Let him climb to the next gap and build over it. Now let the other lemmings dig the stair and build over the right wall.

That was what I call a backroute, this is almost the same solution as to the first time I completed "Lemming Drops" (The name of Tricky 13).

[Pooty]

I came up with that solution as well. It seems like the natural solution to go for. So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

[Minim]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

[chaos_defrost]

Pretty much ALL of the last 10 levels of Mayhem are misplaced:

21: It's not that hard at all if you realise that large gap in the middle can be dug through. In fact, the hardest part for me was getting the basher at the end to go the right way
22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills. Either cut back the skills or move this down to much eariler in Mayhem.
23: A bit harder, but really still not that bad. Should be an earlier Mayhem, not last 10.
24: Should not exist, but this isn't even Taxing.
25: No harder than the tricky equivalent.
26: This was really easy for me. May be harder on other versions, with only 10 of all skills).
27: There's a lot easier levels in this list, but this still seems easy for last 10.
28: Same as 27. This could so in mid-Mayhem maybe.
29: Well... yea, can't complain about this one.
30: It's FAR too easy, but this is meant to be a sort of "epic" level so it's OK.

I always thought some of the earliest levels in the last two sets are the hardest, so:

Mayhem 1: A great starting level for the set, but I think this is one of the hardest levels in the game for some reason.
Mayhem 5: Should be a last 5 level, this is really freaking hard.
Mayhem 9: This also gave me problems as a kid.

Taxing is FAR worse, though.

Taxing 1: Way too hard for the "intro" level of the set.
Taxing 2: Way too freaking easy considering the last level.
Taxing 3: Way too hard for level 3.
Taxing 4: Still quite hard for early Taxing.
Taxing 11: Could conceivably be in the last 10 mayhem levels, wow this is hard to pull off.
Taxing 12: Really? This should be like first ten Tricky.
Taxing 17: Remove the left exits, then this level is fine. As it is, it's literally no harder than the Fun version.
Taxing 24: I like this level but come on this is really easy.
Taxing 26: Can be (early) last 10 Mayhem.
Taxing 29: yea I don't know either

So I guess my last ten levels in the game would be, if I had to order them:

Mayhem 21: The Far Side (this is harder than all the levels after it until No Added Colours)
Mayhem 22: The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Mayhem 23: BeastII, with 4 of all skills, 10 builders instead of current skillset.
Mayhem 24: Mind the Step
Mayhem 25: Triple Trouble
Mayhem 26: Just a Minute (Part II)
Mayhem 27: Down, Along, Up (yes, this is 3rd hardest level in the game. No, really, it is)
Mayhem 28: No Added Colours or Lemmings
Mayhem 29: Save Me
Mayhem 30: Rendezvous at the Mountain
.
And I'll get started on ONML later, because it's a LOT worse than Lemmings was

[Proxima]

The above Mayhem 25 solution is nothing like the way I solved it, which involved sending the worker lemming off to the left, using all three terrain-destruction skills to get through the stairs under the starting platform, then building up to the exit from the stairs just below it.

As for Mayhem 26 (replying to Insane Steve's comment) on the Mac you not only have 10 of all skills, but you can only lose eight *and* three of the "thorns" in the terrain approaching the bear-trap turn the lemmings back... this level took me ten years to solve.

I've never found Mayhem 5 to be especially hard. (One of my fondest memories of Mayhem is, the night when I finally beat "The Boiler Room", I managed to solve all the levels from there to 9 in one go. My dad was so impressed when I presented him with the access codes the next morning!)

Mayhem 21, on the other hand, was the only level I had to have a friend help me with

[Minim]

Mayhem 22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills.

I know that, and to make it worse, I've found an alternate solution to your level I think (not certain yet).

[ccexplore]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

I think it's a mistake to think that the solutions presented in the Lemmings Encyclopedia is definitive or official in any way.  One must also remembers that sometimes a level is meant to have multiple solutions, or at least not intended to restrict the player to just one solution.  I think Fernito/Giga's solution is just as valid as the solution in LE.

I did got the "Lemmings Official solution Compendium" book from Mr. Kiwi, so I guess later today, I could check and see what solution that book has for this level.

[ccexplore]

22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills. Either cut back the skills or move this down to much eariler in Mayhem.

I suspect it's intentional that they put "Beast II" as Mayhem 22 to parallel "Beast" as Fun 22.  In any case, perhaps one should not evaluate the special graphics level in the same vein as regular levels, as they were more about the graphics (which is meant to be taken from other games, and therefore not amenable to much level editing like regular levels) than the puzzle.  At least one can agree that the 4 special graphics levels are ordered correctly amongst themselves for difficulty.

[ccexplore]

Taxing 17: Remove the left exits, then this level is fine. As it is, it's literally no harder than the Fun version.

I can't say I agree with a number of points you made, but this one really takes the cake:  you'd actually advocate the hidden exit as a way to improve a level?!?!?!?   I do hope that was a typo and you mean to say remove the right exit.

I think the point of that level is that since there are no blockers nor diggers, you are forced to think about a different way to hold back the crowd, instead of the usual two ways already drilled into the player's head at this point (eg. blockers obviously, and the digger's pit).  True, not exactly difficult or cutting edge, but still shows that it's not just a thoughtless repeat of an earlier level.

[chaos_defrost]

The level has a bunch of terrain that reads "EXIT   X" in various spots. If the exit is actually under one of the Xs, and there's no visible exits, I don't see the problem. It's like a treasure hunt!

yarrrrrrrr

[ccexplore]

Perhaps, but the player is also misdirected by the two "fake" exit X's on the left.  It'd be rather easy for the player to think the X's are all just red herrings and just get really annoyed.  In any case, I don't think I'll be easily convinced that a drawn-out version of Tricky 28 is the answer to this level.  I'm sure if they did do the hidden exit thing, a bunch of people would now be whining and placing the level at their bottom-5 list.