Most out-of-place levels

[namida]

Which levels from the original games do you think are most out of place? (As in, in the wrong difficulty setting, or too early/late in the one that they're in)

Some of the ones I most thought this about:

Tricky 14 - Menacing. (The Sega Master System one). This level is quite hard compared to the others in Tricky, and I think it would've been better in Taxing, or even early (but not late) Mayhem.
Tricky 19 - Postcard from Lemmingland. Come on, this one should've been Taxing. >_>
Tricky 21 - All The 6s. While I think Tricky is right for this level, it should've been MUCH earlier in it.
Taxing 2 - Watch Out, There's Traps About. This one was just a tad too easy for Taxing. Mid-Tricky would've worked better.
Taxing 14 - Hunt The Nessy. This one should've been late Fun, or maybe early Tricky. (Or even better, absent altogether -_-")
Taxing 24 - Take A Running Jump. This level is very easy... should've been at most mid-Tricky.
Taxing 29 - How Do I Dig Up The Way. What the HECK? This level is pathetic. Late Tricky, at best.
Mayhem 8 - Last One Out Is A Rotten Egg. Too easy for Mayhem. Early Taxing, maybe.
Mayhem 17 - Stepping Stones. While Mayhem-worthy, I think it should've been much earlier in Mayhem.
Mayhem 18 - And Then There Were Four. This one would've been an ideal early Taxing level.
Mayhem 24 - All or Nothing. A luck based level this late in the game? Nah. Throw it back.
Mayhem 26 - The Steel Mines of Kessel. Would've worked well in Taxing.
Mayhem 30 - Rendezvous at the Mountain. Come on, this is WAY too easy for the final level. Maybe late Tricky or early Taxing.

[Minim]

For OhNo, These are my five levels:

Tame 20: Custom built for lemmings: Too easy for a last level
Crazy 11: No Problemming!: Too easy
Wild 5: Lemming Head: Too easy
Wicked 14: The Lemming Learning Curve: Too easy
Havoc 10: Flow Control: Either easy or impossible.

I didn't have much trouble with Tricky 19, but Tricky 26 was really difficult. Fun 13 and Tricky 2 were the first levels that stumped me.

[Proxima]

It seems the original designers had a philosophy of relaxing the difficulty at the end of each category, which seems annoying to us now when we revisit the levels, but was probably quite welcome when we solved them originally I certainly remember what it felt like to finally complete the Taxing rating, and the fact that the set concludes with the abysmally easy "How do I dig up the way?" and another "We all fall down" level really had no effect on that.

Fun looks like building up to a tough climax with two consecutive RR 99 levels, and then we get the stupidly easy "Nightmare on Lem Street" and "Lock up your lemmings". Tricky has a series of excellent levels -- then comes "Island of the Wicker people" and "Rainbow Island". Taxing has the aforementioned "How do I dig up the way?" and I agree with you that "Rendezvous at the Mountain" isn't the game's hardest level. (Much too hard for Tricky or early Taxing as you suggest, though. And the awesome title and the theme of coming together at the end do make it seem an appropriate level to finish with.) The last ten Mayhem levels also contain the very easy "All or Nothing" and "Just a Minute (part 2)", and "Going up" ain't so tough either.

If we ignore the end few levels of each category, the levels I would nominate for worst-placed are "Follow the leader" and "Pea Soup" (though as I said in another topic, I'd rather the latter were omitted entirely).

On the other hand I think "Postcard from Lemmingland" was well placed. A tough little puzzle, but it gets you out of a 20-of-everything frame of mind and into the puzzle-solving frame you need for levels like "From the Boundary Line", "Tightrope City", "Cascade" and "I have a cunning plan" that are shortly to follow. And I wouldn't move "And then there were four", which is not by any means an easy level.

[Fernito]

I'm impressed that you haven't included "Have a nice day" in your lists. I always thought it was so misplaced. The first time I played it I couldn't believe how easy it was (actually I used EXACTLY the same solution I used for the Tricky level with the same layout, which name I can't remember by now).

haha, also I'm impressed that you included Just a minute 2 and Going up in your lists. I had problems with those levels (Just a minute 2 because the platfom was missing and Going up because the long build required some precision).

[Minim]

I'm impressed that you haven't included "Have a nice day" in your lists. I always thought it was so misplaced. The first time I played it I couldn't believe how easy it was (actually I used EXACTLY the same solution I used for the Tricky level with the same layout, which name I can't remember by now).

Yes, I missed that athough I think I know the solutions you made are backroutes in that level, both not using the platform on the left.

Giga's posted one backrouted solution, but I'm guessing this is the solution which you came up with. Highlight the big space to read:

Let the first lemming build to the wall (One lemming will die) then set a blocker on the left of the platform. Make someone an athlete. Build to the right wall and turn around. Build to the left (Leaving no gaps) to create a safety bridge for the other lemmings. Let him climb to the next gap and build over it. Now let the other lemmings dig the stair and build over the right wall.

That was what I call a backroute, this is almost the same solution as to the first time I completed "Lemming Drops" (The name of Tricky 13).

[Pooty]

I came up with that solution as well. It seems like the natural solution to go for. So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

[Minim]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

[chaos_defrost]

Pretty much ALL of the last 10 levels of Mayhem are misplaced:

21: It's not that hard at all if you realise that large gap in the middle can be dug through. In fact, the hardest part for me was getting the basher at the end to go the right way
22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills. Either cut back the skills or move this down to much eariler in Mayhem.
23: A bit harder, but really still not that bad. Should be an earlier Mayhem, not last 10.
24: Should not exist, but this isn't even Taxing.
25: No harder than the tricky equivalent.
26: This was really easy for me. May be harder on other versions, with only 10 of all skills).
27: There's a lot easier levels in this list, but this still seems easy for last 10.
28: Same as 27. This could so in mid-Mayhem maybe.
29: Well... yea, can't complain about this one.
30: It's FAR too easy, but this is meant to be a sort of "epic" level so it's OK.

I always thought some of the earliest levels in the last two sets are the hardest, so:

Mayhem 1: A great starting level for the set, but I think this is one of the hardest levels in the game for some reason.
Mayhem 5: Should be a last 5 level, this is really freaking hard.
Mayhem 9: This also gave me problems as a kid.

Taxing is FAR worse, though.

Taxing 1: Way too hard for the "intro" level of the set.
Taxing 2: Way too freaking easy considering the last level.
Taxing 3: Way too hard for level 3.
Taxing 4: Still quite hard for early Taxing.
Taxing 11: Could conceivably be in the last 10 mayhem levels, wow this is hard to pull off.
Taxing 12: Really? This should be like first ten Tricky.
Taxing 17: Remove the left exits, then this level is fine. As it is, it's literally no harder than the Fun version.
Taxing 24: I like this level but come on this is really easy.
Taxing 26: Can be (early) last 10 Mayhem.
Taxing 29: yea I don't know either

So I guess my last ten levels in the game would be, if I had to order them:

Mayhem 21: The Far Side (this is harder than all the levels after it until No Added Colours)
Mayhem 22: The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Mayhem 23: BeastII, with 4 of all skills, 10 builders instead of current skillset.
Mayhem 24: Mind the Step
Mayhem 25: Triple Trouble
Mayhem 26: Just a Minute (Part II)
Mayhem 27: Down, Along, Up (yes, this is 3rd hardest level in the game. No, really, it is)
Mayhem 28: No Added Colours or Lemmings
Mayhem 29: Save Me
Mayhem 30: Rendezvous at the Mountain
.
And I'll get started on ONML later, because it's a LOT worse than Lemmings was

[Proxima]

The above Mayhem 25 solution is nothing like the way I solved it, which involved sending the worker lemming off to the left, using all three terrain-destruction skills to get through the stairs under the starting platform, then building up to the exit from the stairs just below it.

As for Mayhem 26 (replying to Insane Steve's comment) on the Mac you not only have 10 of all skills, but you can only lose eight *and* three of the "thorns" in the terrain approaching the bear-trap turn the lemmings back... this level took me ten years to solve.

I've never found Mayhem 5 to be especially hard. (One of my fondest memories of Mayhem is, the night when I finally beat "The Boiler Room", I managed to solve all the levels from there to 9 in one go. My dad was so impressed when I presented him with the access codes the next morning!)

Mayhem 21, on the other hand, was the only level I had to have a friend help me with

[Minim]

Mayhem 22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills.

I know that, and to make it worse, I've found an alternate solution to your level I think (not certain yet).

[ccexplore]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

I think it's a mistake to think that the solutions presented in the Lemmings Encyclopedia is definitive or official in any way.  One must also remembers that sometimes a level is meant to have multiple solutions, or at least not intended to restrict the player to just one solution.  I think Fernito/Giga's solution is just as valid as the solution in LE.

I did got the "Lemmings Official solution Compendium" book from Mr. Kiwi, so I guess later today, I could check and see what solution that book has for this level.

[ccexplore]

22: Neat looking level, but come on, I made a custom of this with 7 fewer of all skills. Either cut back the skills or move this down to much eariler in Mayhem.

I suspect it's intentional that they put "Beast II" as Mayhem 22 to parallel "Beast" as Fun 22.  In any case, perhaps one should not evaluate the special graphics level in the same vein as regular levels, as they were more about the graphics (which is meant to be taken from other games, and therefore not amenable to much level editing like regular levels) than the puzzle.  At least one can agree that the 4 special graphics levels are ordered correctly amongst themselves for difficulty.

[ccexplore]

Taxing 17: Remove the left exits, then this level is fine. As it is, it's literally no harder than the Fun version.

I can't say I agree with a number of points you made, but this one really takes the cake:  you'd actually advocate the hidden exit as a way to improve a level?!?!?!?   I do hope that was a typo and you mean to say remove the right exit.

I think the point of that level is that since there are no blockers nor diggers, you are forced to think about a different way to hold back the crowd, instead of the usual two ways already drilled into the player's head at this point (eg. blockers obviously, and the digger's pit).  True, not exactly difficult or cutting edge, but still shows that it's not just a thoughtless repeat of an earlier level.

[chaos_defrost]

The level has a bunch of terrain that reads "EXIT   X" in various spots. If the exit is actually under one of the Xs, and there's no visible exits, I don't see the problem. It's like a treasure hunt!

yarrrrrrrr

[ccexplore]

Perhaps, but the player is also misdirected by the two "fake" exit X's on the left.  It'd be rather easy for the player to think the X's are all just red herrings and just get really annoyed.  In any case, I don't think I'll be easily convinced that a drawn-out version of Tricky 28 is the answer to this level.  I'm sure if they did do the hidden exit thing, a bunch of people would now be whining and placing the level at their bottom-5 list.

[Proxima]

I think the point of that level is that since there are no blockers nor diggers, you are forced to think about a different way to hold back the crowd, instead of the usual two ways already drilled into the player's head at this point (eg. blockers obviously, and the digger's pit).  True, not exactly difficult or cutting edge, but still shows that it's not just a thoughtless repeat of an earlier level.

Digger's pit? I can't see a single level that "drills this into the player's head". With hindsight it's certainly the easiest way to solve some levels (Taxing 11!!!) but when I was solving the levels originally I used miners every single time to contain the crowd on 100% levels (only taking a short break to use a basher on Taxing 8 ).

In reply to the post you made while I was typing this, isn't the player is virtually certain to have seen that there's nothing behind the left Xs while solving the Fun version?

[ccexplore]

Digger's pit? I can't see a single level that "drills this into the player's head".

Hmm okay, maybe it just happens to be my style of playing, although surely you remember Taxing 3 don't you?   Or did you use a miner there too?

I think I avoided using miners to hold the crowd back when I was playing, because miners are slower, takes up more space to get the desired effect, and they only block the crowd one way.  I'm sorry to hear that you actually used miners for Taxing 11, that must've been rather unpleasant.

In reply to the post you made while I was typing this, isn't the player is virtually certain to have seen that there's nothing behind the left Xs while solving the Fun version?

True, but then depending on the player's thought process, one could easily come to either the conclusion that "it must be the remaining X!" or that "the Xs are all just red herrings, the exit is hidden some other place".  I do suppose together with the title the former conclusion is more likely.  Still, requiring the hidden exit seems to rather cheapen the level, without making it any harder to work out and execute.

[Proxima]

I used lots of miners to solve Taxing 3 It's not for nothing that it gives you 30 of everything!

And yes, Taxing 11 was hard, but I wouldn't call it unpleasant; it was certainly a feeling of immense achievement when I cracked it!

[Clam]

Vacation in Gemland is out of place in a Xmas game.

[ccexplore]

LOL That's why it's called Vacation in Gemland.

And I'm surprised this coming from a New Zealander, who should know better than anyone that not every place on Earth has Xmas during winter.

[Clam]

There is Christmas South of the Equator, you know. And we still have Christmas pudding (in the game and IRL), however inappropriate it is for the middle of summer.

[namida]

...you're from NZ too, Clam?

[Minim]

Just look at his profile.

Anyway: Some 3D Lemmings level are out of place. Here they are:

32: Dot to Dot: Yes, it's big but it's too easy.
38: Play Time: Quite a bit too hard for Tricky
42: Picky Platform: I was completely stumped at that one. Too hard for early Taxing.
43: Let the Race begin: Way too easy. Should be Fun.
46: Ricochet: Still too easy
57: T minus five and Counting: Such a stupid level. It's either too easy or too hard.
58: Snake: Too easy, and repetitive. End of story.
62: Brechin's staircase: THIS, IS, TOO, EASY!
74: Jelly Belly Islands: Includes a backroute which makes the level easier.

[namida]

Many of the L3D levels have backroutes. Those I can remember off the top of my head:

Fun 8 - Lemmings Inside
Fun 19 - Attack of the 50ft Lemming
Tricky 29 - Land Ahoy (debatable, the backroute is harder than the normal solution but clearly unintended)
Tricky 32 - Dot to Dot
Tricky 39 - Stilt Walkers
Taxing 41 - Spaghetti Junction
Taxing 45 - 3D: A Lemming Odyssey
Taxing 60 - Death Slide
Mayhem 63 - Tower of Lemlab
Mayhem 66 - Family Tree
Mayhem 67 - Driving Range
Mayhem 71 - Across The Network
Mayhem 74 - Jelly Belly Islands
Mayhem 80 - Final Maze

[chaos_defrost]

ONML is a LOT worse than original Lemmings for what it's worth:

Crazy 2: Not terrible, but still rather hard to execute for such an early "serious" level in the game.
Crazy 7: Near pixel precision this early in the game? This is really freaking hard for its position, though not as bad as...
Crazy 10: A HAVOC CALIBRE LEVEL. In the 2nd tier. This is harder than all levels in Wild, All Wicked levels but Wicked 10, and at least half the Havoc levels. When I solved this I felt so amazingly well, except all the later levels in the set were so ridiculously underwhelming are beating this. It's a very well-made puzzle, but I mean come on middle of the 2nd tier out of 5? Really?
Crazy 11-20: LOL at all of these after beating Crazy 10 >_<
Wild 3: So I got to Wicked 10 and Havoc 10 before beating this. Really. The precision required to do this stage is really deceptive. And this is hand enough to place the skills to be at least Wicked.
Wild 10: Such a horrifically lazy level. Also easier than everything in Crazy except maybe Crazy 11.
Wild 11: Oh and then after that we get the hardest level in the set. Again, I find this harder to pass than most of the Havoc set. Ridiculous builder precision for this early in the game and there's a lot you have to think about to pass it.
Wild 17: uhhhhhhh if you know ANY way to stop a crowd without blockers (or you know how to free a blocker) this is a total joke.
Wicked 1: I like being able to pass the first level of a set without it being harder than most of the set, yea. Got that, Taxing/Mayhem from Lemmings 1? Guess not.
Wicked 9: Huh, this is easy just due to complete lack of any other solutions but the right one. Crazy 2 is harder.
Wicked 10: Hey this belongs in second half of Havoc too. I had so much difficulty passing this level as a kid. Again, a great puzzle ruined by being too early in the game.
Wicked 12-14: Ok these are all really freaking easy, especially 14. Seriously, you except these to be any challenge at all after 10 (and, to an extent, 11)?
Havoc 3: There's about 6,000 different ways to do this. Based on the title, it seems you had one specific answer in mind. Huh. Very easy, demote to Crazy.
Havoc 4: What's with all these really freaking hard levels right after or before really freaking easy levels? This is one of the 5 hardest levels in the game -- unforgiving multitasking, a very short timer, and a completely not obvious solution. Yea, much this back plx
Havoc 6: easyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasy
Havoc 9: One of my favorite levels in the game, but still very easy for its rating.
Havoc 13: ...

At least all the later stages are at least challenging (maybe not late Havoc, but still fairly hard) after 13.

[ccexplore]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

I think it's a mistake to think that the solutions presented in the Lemmings Encyclopedia is definitive or official in any way.  One must also remembers that sometimes a level is meant to have multiple solutions, or at least not intended to restrict the player to just one solution.  I think Fernito/Giga's solution is just as valid as the solution in LE.

I did got the "Lemmings Official solution Compendium" book from Mr. Kiwi, so I guess later today, I could check and see what solution that book has for this level.

Lemmings:  The Official Companion presents Fernito/Giga's solution (block on the left, build to seal gap on the right, climber over wall to build path to exit, dig to release crowd) for both Tricky 13 and Mayhem 25.  Moreover, on Tricky 13, after presenting the solution, they say:

This is certainly not the only way to win this level! There are quite a few other solutions! [...]

Therefore, I wouldn't call Fernito/Giga's solution a backroute, and I would say that they did not intend the level to have only one solution.

[Clam]

...you're from NZ too, Clam?

Sure am

with most of Insane Steve's list, but there are a few I'd like to add:

Crazy 17 - For the time limit alone, this level is at least one rating too soon.
Wild 13 - Same here, and difficult other reasons too. Should be Havoc.
Wicked 2 - At least wait until later in Wicked before you go and break the game. Preferably Wicked 20.
Wicked 6 -  It's easier than Wild 1. What is it doing 25 levels after?
Wicked 11 - You briefly touched on this one. I think it's worthy of Havoc rating.

Havoc 13: ...

Did you mean to write something in here? I mean, "..." sums it up fairly well, but...

[Proxima]

How does Wicked 2 "break the game"? It's easier than the first level!

[namida]

Wicked 2 "breaks the game" by introducing a new mechanic completely unique to that level and unexpected: forced fast-forward.

[LemSteven]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tricky 1.  That level should have been placed around Fun 9 in my opinion.

[Minim]

That's a good point actually. I completed this level before Fun 13.

[Proxima]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tricky 1.  That level should have been placed around Fun 9 in my opinion.

I always thought the intention was to have overlapping categories -- Tricky 1 was never meant to be harder than Fun 29, but each category gets harder as it goes along (except for the "blips" that we're picking up in this topic) and each category as a whole is harder than the previous. That model works well for a game where you can start from the first level of any category, but have to progress within the category to unlock later levels. My favourite game Repton 3 does the same, and I have deliberately followed this model in the many level sets I've designed.

You mentioned Fun 9, though, and I think that should be mentioned as a level that should have come later than it did. Sure, it only takes one skill to win, but release rate 99 and a high save requirement on only the second real level of the game?

[ccexplore]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tricky 1.  That level should have been placed around Fun 9 in my opinion.

"I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tame 1-20.  Those levels should have been placed in the trash bin in my opinion."

 

j/k, but hey, you know in your heart I'm right to some extent.

[Dullstar]

Tame was okay, but compared to the rest of the game?

Difficulty Curve

[namida]

I think that was intended, though.

ONML was meant as a bonus level pack, and Tame was most likely simply meant to be a few easy levels added in to fill space or entertain the less skilled players who still wanted more Lemmings action.

[ccexplore]

And to be fair, even for seasoned players, those Tame levels provide a surprising number of interesting challenges.  That's the beauty of easy levels--they tend to give you many extra skills, which you can in turn use to solve the level in many creative and unusual ways.

[Dullstar]

I just came up with an idea...

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=180

[CynicalOkie]

I don't think there's a thread like this already, but do you think there's any levels in any of the lemmings games that are in the wrong category? I think a few are:

The Crossroads - Mayhem -> Late Tricky
I Have a Cunning Plan - Tricky -> Taxing
Livin' On the Edge - Taxing -> Tricky

[ccexplore]

Haha, that's like a perennial topic around here actually, I'm sure I've seen at least 2 or 3 incarnations of this throughout the ages of our forums.  Almost everyone agrees many levels are misplaced in the game in terms of difficulty etc. [note: this doesn't just mean wrong ratings, but also whether it appeared "too early" or "too late" within a rating], but if I recall correctly, there are few if any levels that were universally agreed upon by all as such, to say nothing of what people think the correct placement should be.

In other words, if people aren't bored of this topic already at this point, I imagine you'll get a good number of replies.  If nothing else, I'm sure some of the newer members will have something to say.

[Adam]

I think this topic's quite a good one, and some levels do seem to generate a different response each time.

I'll take a look through the Master System version to see which levels are inappropriately placed.. the Master System was generally easier anyway due to the pause button being on the console itself, but I'm sure there'll be some which stand out like a sore thumb.

[finlay]

I don't think there's a thread like this already, but do you think there's any levels in any of the lemmings games that are in the wrong category? I think a few are:

The Crossroads - Mayhem -> Late Tricky
I Have a Cunning Plan - Tricky -> Taxing
Livin' On the Edge - Taxing -> Tricky

I think Crossroads is alright, actually, but partly because I played a version where you require 100%.

Triple Trouble is my massive pet hate level, as it took me years to complete for the first time. Should have been in Mayhem, but actually I'm quite glad it wasn't because I'd probably have missed out on more of the game. As it happens it was only two new levels that I missed.

And of course, there's always that classic: Highland Fling should not be in Havoc.

[chaos_defrost]

Honestly with Lemmings 1 the levels that bother me the most have to do with the ordering and not the set -- I find that a lot of early Taxing is harder than a lot of late Taxing, being the most obvious one to me.

Crossroads was always really easy for me, though I can see in 100% versions where it might be tricky.

ONML has a lot more badly placed levels set-wise, I know I've made posts about them in the past; I'll have to see if I can dig them up.

[CynicalOkie]

If all versions of the Crossroads were 100%, I'd say it would definitely be Mayhem; but unfortunately, I've really only seen 80% ones out there, which makes it extremely easy for Mayhem.

[Adam]

The SMS was 100%, but with RR50.. very strange level!

[Clam]

"The fast food kitchen" is another one that depends on the version. On Amiga it's definitely Mayhem, but the DOS version has a much lighter time limit and % requirement that makes it no harder than the Tricky level.

And since someone mentioned pet-hate levels, "Upsidedown World" has bugs and inconsistencies that make it more like a Mayhem level. If it behaved as expected, then probably Taxing would be ok.

[Simon]

No wonder you think upsidedown world is buggy, with all the earthquakes you have there >_>;;

-- Simon

[Mike Rosoft]

Also, what's "Vacation in Gemland" doing among the easy levels of "Holiday Lemmings" - Flurry? (Its graphics don't match the rest of the game, either - it seems to have spilled over from "Oh no - more Lemmings".


Mike Rosoft

[Minim]

Hello Mike, and welcome to the forums!

In response to your question I have no idea. Maybe the developers wanted to make a more colourful and brighter level than the Amiga version of Flurry 8, which that level is called "Clouds of Lemmings". That level featured nothing more than a rock and some clouds. In my opinion I think Clouds of Lemmings should've been on the DOS, so that this won't affect the steepness of the learning curve.

[AK_WDB]

Have a Nice Day is absurdly easy to be an upper Mayhem level.  It's not any harder than Lemming Drops.