What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?

[Clam]

I've improved Mayhem 14 to 15 skills, by taking advantage of the placement of the steel areas, which don't match up exactly with the terrain. The attached replay shows everything up to the steel-glitch part, which doesn't work in replays. See spoiler for the rest:

Dig down 3 times using the cursor glitch, as far to the right as possible. This is a bit annoying since it selects the same lemming each time, so be careful not to let the other lemmings jump up into in the water. Block the second digger (the one used to perform the glitch) in an exact spot so that the first digger keeps digging without releasing it, and the main group of lemmings comes as close as possible to it when they turn around - this is needed for a bomber to destroy the steel. Give a lemming a bomber skill at the left position, holding the right mouse button to avoid selecting the blocker. This bomber should explode and make a hole. Bomb and block again to open a path to the exit.

[ccexplore]

I have no better luck with Mayhem 20.  Actually, there is an almost-solution that I think could've worked if the topmost row of pixels of the starting platform is at y=62 instead of y=61.  That affects the alignment of the field of a blocker placed on the starting platform:  at y=62 the field extends to the top 6 rows of pixels, but at y=61 it only extends to 3.

One thing you should not try is getting 2 miners to mine towards each other and hope they both stop.  Due to the same miscalculation that led to the miner glitch (miner can drop off terrain w/o breaking through it), that will never get both miners to stop.

Then again, in terms of overall numbers, Mayhem 21 is far bleaker.  So far I'm not seeing any way you can avoid assigning all 50 lemmings floaters.

Anyway, made some random progress today on three levels:

Wicked 16:  3 (nothing special; nuke glitch didn't help)
Wicked 17:  6 (attached; failed to do any better so far)
Wicked 20:  4 (pretty obvious I think)

[LemSteven]

Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

Wild 13 can be done with 9 skills -- nothing too difficult.

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

[Clam]

Then again, in terms of overall numbers, Mayhem 21 is far bleaker.  So far I'm not seeing any way you can avoid assigning all 50 lemmings floaters.

I've got it

There is a way to create a high enough platform to allow the lemmings to fall safely using only one builder. By bashing into the wall, you can open up a bit more room for the builder to work. And, because of the shape of the basher tunnel, the builder can start 1 pixel above ground level. This lets you build a bridge just high enough to prevent the lemmings from splatting. Unfortunately, you can't start the basher until the first lemming has prepared enough of the path so that the others don't fall to the lower part of the level. The best solution I've found uses 21 floaters, and 28 skills total (replay attached).

Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

  As far as I can tell, it takes 7 skills just to get some lemmings to the exit. Do you have a replay?

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

It must be a DOS-only thing. The ceiling route works just fine in Lemmix, and gives a 10-skill solution.

[LemSteven]

Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

  As far as I can tell, it takes 7 skills just to get some lemmings to the exit. Do you have a replay?

No, I do not have a replay for two reasons:

1:  I've been doing my work in the DOS version of Lemmings.
2:  It's too easy for a replay.

My solution was actually pretty straightforward, other than a little bit of steel mining/bashing in the end.  If you're still stuck, here's the outline of my solution:

1: Make the first lemming a climber.
2:  Make the second lemming build up to the brick that juts out above the others so that the crowd can get past it.  This lemming will turn around when he's done.
3:  Build into the pillar below the entrance to keep the crowd from falling into the pit below.
4:  Make the climber build over the second half of the chain.
5:  Release the crowd by building a bridge up to the white stairs that lead up to the chain.
6:  Make the climber mine when he is about 40% of the way up the brick ramp.  He will hit steel and turn around, but his last stroke will take out more than half of the steel.
7:  Have someone from the crowd bash out the last chunk of steel.

Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

[Clam]

Too easy? Perhaps I should avoid the spoiler and try it again later...
EDIT: got it

[Clam]

Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

As much as I'd like to believe you... well, I don't believe you. Maybe I need a break


For now, here's a couple more from Mayhem.

22: 13
23: 14
25: 9

[namida]

I've tried Taxing 21 again. I /nearly/ came up with a 6 skill solution, but it just barely doesn't work. By making a second lemming a climber, and having him take over the rest of the work (but this both uses a 7th skill and fails to get 100%), it will work. Maybe someone who knows more could improve on it?

Basically, it involves the dig-the-side-of-steel glitch to get past the flamethrower... and from there the rest is obvious.

[ccexplore]

There is a way to create a high enough platform to allow the lemmings to fall safely using only one builder.

Good job. Clearly I need to stop eyeballling the fall distance from entrances and actually measure it out next time.

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

It must be a DOS-only thing. The ceiling route works just fine in Lemmix, and gives a 10-skill solution.

How high are you when you start bashing?  Back on the old old forums, I executed ceiling-route solutions for Mayhem 12 and Havoc 11 in DOS Lemmings, so clearly it can work in DOS Lemmings.  I'm especially baffled with Wild 19 since I examined the level in both LemEdit and Lemmix, and the only terrain there that extends off the level top boundary are the steel blocks (the terrain, not the actual steel areas), and they are all at the same altitude, so even if there's some unknown issue with clipping at the level top boundary, it shouldn't be happening halfway through your bashing.

I'll take a look at it myself soon, but if you can give more precise information on where exactly you start bashing, it would help me investigate what's going on.

[namida]

Also; I think Mayhem 24 is very obvious: 3 skills.

[ccexplore]

I've tried Taxing 21 again. I /nearly/ came up with a 6 skill solution, but it just barely doesn't work. By making a second lemming a climber, and having him take over the rest of the work (but this both uses a 7th skill and fails to get 100%), it will work. Maybe someone who knows more could improve on it?

Basically, it involves the dig-the-side-of-steel glitch to get past the flamethrower... and from there the rest is obvious.

I've already considered this since I was the one to issue the no-builder challenge for that level back on the old old forums.  I don't think you can get that to work with less than 8 skills actually:

1) You need to dig down the edge of the steel block a total of 12 pixels.  Then because the initial frame of falling goes down 4 pixels, the lemming will "fall through" the trigger area skipping it in effect.

2) I think you need at least 3 skills to clear away the top 7 rows of pixels of steel:  build twice to the right height and bash, or climb dig bash.

3) You then need to set up a blocker to enable you to dig down the final 5 pixels at the edge, and then you need to also free the blocker afterwards.  So that's already another 3 skills:  one to block, one to dig away the steel, and one to free the blocker.

4) Finally, even when you get past the framethrower into the bottom of the pit where the exit is, I think you need at least 2 more skills to create a path to the exit.  You can't just build up to it because the framethrower reaches a small portion of the left end of the terrain where the exit sits.

Even if there's some way in #3 to clear pixels and free the blocker with the same skill, you still end up with 7 total.

[ccexplore]

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

I've just played my copy of ONML in DOSBox, and I was able to bash through the ceiling in Wild 19 at height 7 and height 6 without encountering the problem you have.  (At height 5 the bash does just one stroke and stops, just like in Lemmix.)

I did check the game's programming.  If I read it right, the location on the trigger map the basher would check for steel/one-way-wall is actually not even covered in the trigger map (the trigger map only covers up to the top of the screen).  The calculations for accessing the trigger map at that out-of-range location would actually wrap around to some completely unrelated portions of memory, which may well contain garbage values that happen to match the value for a steel or OWW trigger area by accident.

[LemSteven]

All I know for sure about the positioning of my basher in Wild 19 is that it was at the lowest place he can start.  The horizontal positioning doesn't make any difference.  Also, the basher stops in the same place every time, which is about halfway through.  There is no "clink" sound that indicates he hit steel, so he is behaving more like he hit a one-way wall (even there are no one-way walls in the said level).  If I try and use the other basher when he comes back, he just takes one stroke and then does the same thing.

I've also had problems with this on Mayhem 28, although there it doesn't ruin the solution because there are sufficient bashers and diggers that I can go under the problem areas.  I don't have any problems with Mayhem 12 or Havoc 11.

Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

As much as I'd like to believe you... well, I don't believe you. Maybe I need a break

Okay, admittedly this one is somewhat more difficult than Wild 11.  I'll do my best to explain this one:

Set the release rate to about 25 or so for the first few lemmings.
1.  The first lemming builds from the edge of the ice platform.  The second lemming will drown, but the third one will land near the edge of the platform below.
2.  Make this lemming bash a step or two after he lands.  He must be low enough so that nobody gets killed by the ice shooter later on.
3.  Place a blocker so that nobody else falls into the water.
4.  Wait until the basher gets to the little dip just past the ice shooter (there is a little hump just past it).  Hopefully the top of the basher's tunnel will be exposed.  When this happens, make him build to stop bashing.  (If the top of the tunnel is not exposed here, you will have to start over and bash a little higher.)
5.  When a lemming is going down the right side the little hump (to the left of the icicles hanging down), make him build.  If this is done in the right spot, he will not hit his head on the icicles, even though it looks like he will.
6.  When the builder runs out of bricks, give him more.
7.  The builder will run out of bricks when he reaches the snow wall on the right.  Let him walk up as high as he can and then bash.  If you bash from the right spot, he will stop bashing on the other side and walk up the rest of the way to the exit.

Meanwhile, the rest of the crowd is milling around freely.  This is why you need the top of the first basher's tunnel to be exposed -- so that the lemmings who turn around will drop back into the tunnel and not get killed by the ice shooter.  Everybody should get to the exit in time, though, saving 96%.  (Make sure to raise the release rate to 99!)

[ccexplore]

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

If you can get DOSBox v0.73 working on your machine, I suggest using DOSBox for those levels where you run into the problem.  As I explained in another post, the game has buggy calculations in locating the trigger areas when the basher is that high in the level, and ends up reading memory that I'm not sure is even part of the program.  In DOSBox though at least those memory areas seem to remain all 0s (translating to empty trigger areas), unlike if you run it in actual DOS where it could well truly be random garbage from previous programs.

[Clam]

Never mind, I've found the spot you have to build from (on Wild 12). I thought that hanging icicle got in the way wherever you started from, but apparently not.