Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: WillLem on January 12, 2021, 07:34:28 PM
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Walkers should have priority when in the thrower state, because you cannot assign a throwing skill to a lemming in that state
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This is only a bug in regards to them having the priority over shruggers.
In that case, I'd suggest that:
a) the "shrugger" state be something different - maybe the lem could put their hand on their forehead as if to look at what they've thrown, before continuing walking (e.g. a "looker" state)
b) this state be activated as soon as the current projectile leaves their hands - or, maybe, no more than 2-3 frames later, allowing for a nicer animation
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a) the "shrugger" state be something different - maybe the lem could put their hand on their forehead as if to look at what they've thrown, before continuing walking (e.g. a "looker" state)
This was proposed before, when the idea was floated that maybe the thrower-shrugger should have minor physics differences from the builder-shrugger (as I didn't want the literal same state to have these differences, but a similar but unique state having them is okay). It didn't end up going anywhere.
Is there any situation where, despite all of skill queueing, directional select and highlight existing, you'd still need this priority change?
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(re: proposed "looker" state)
This was proposed before... It didn't end up going anywhere.
Maybe it could go somewhere now that it has been proposed again? Personally, if the projectile skills make it into stable I'd like to see a unique state for the post-throw anyway (i.e. regardless of priority), and I would strongly support any suggestions/ideas to that effect.
Is there any situation where, despite all of skill queueing, directional select and highlight existing, you'd still need this priority change?
I don't suppose there is given the existence of the tools you mentioned. And, it can sometimes be favourable to have 2 lems spearing from the same spot (bridge building and delay tactics spring to mind). So, perhaps this part of the suggestion can be ignored.
The "looker" state (or similar) is something I definitely think should happen though. Happy to re-post about it in the discussion topic if necessary.
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What will be different about it compared to Shrugger, physics-wise?
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Ideally, it would be reached more quickly and last longer.
So, at the moment the "thrower" state lasts for 6 frames, and the "shrugger" for 8. That's already a pretty good window as it is, to be fair, but it could be slightly better.
If the proposed "looker" state were to last, say, 12 frames, that's an extra 4 frames of repeat assignability from the same spot. And, if the "thrower" state were super quick (say, 4 {or even 3} frames), then the lem's unassignability window would be shorter.
This would have the effect of reducing the "wait" time between repeat assignments to the same lem, whilst extending the time spent on the initial throwing spot, and also meaning that passerby lems are potentially less of an issue when using the skill in realtime. All of this would make the throwables that much better in terms of their assignability and their usefulness as delay skills.
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How quickly the shrugger/looker state is reached is not a property of the shrugger / looker state; it's a property of the state leading to it (in this case, thrower).
Lasting longer is indeed a difference in the shrugger / looker themselves, but I'm not really sure that it's justified. It would mean a new state is being introduced, that (physics wise) is identical to an existing one except it lasts a few frames longer. The only reason for this state to be here is that it reduces the risk of assigning to the wrong lemming when spamming assignments. This is even further weakened in light of that I haven't yet seen a case where this problem arises and getting the exact right lemming(s) matters and none of the existing fine-control features (such as highlight or directional select) can deal with it. Not to mention - if a custom level that gave rise to such a situation were to be made, it would be too much of a frustrating-execution level for me to care much about; challenge solutions, while a more valid reason for such a situation to exist, should not be given too much weight when deciding physics.
Now perhaps a reason why a looker state could be justified, is if it went beyond just "a few frames more than the shrugger", such as "remained as a looker until the projectile impacted or went off-screen". However, in general, it seems the preference was for the lemming to only have a short delay after throwing, rather than waiting for impact.
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How quickly the shrugger/looker state is reached is not a property of the shrugger / looker state; it's a property of the state leading to it (in this case, thrower).
In that case, I suggest reducing the duration of the "thrower" state.
Now perhaps a reason why a looker state could be justified, is if it went beyond just "a few frames more than the shrugger", such as "remained as a looker until the projectile impacted or went off-screen"
+1 for this! I must have missed this vote - this is definitely what should happen! A unique state adds further definition to this skill, and waiting for actual impact/disappearance of projectile seems like a great idea.
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Keep in mind that that would make them very powerful as delay skills - and they, especially grenader, are already very powerful.
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I think having a separate "looker" state instead of re-using shrugger is a good idea in terms of visuals, but I think it might be sufficient for it to just be a reskinned shrugger.
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and they, especially grenader, are already very powerful.
Is that still true after the most recent update (V6), though? ;) Have any Grenader backroutes been persisting since then?
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Keep in mind that that would make them very powerful as delay skills - and they, especially grenader, are already very powerful.
I'm not sure I agree that they're very powerful. Sure, they're instant-effect skills which also delay the lemming, and allow the lemming to remain in the same spot - that's powerful, no question.
However, they also have many limitations:
Spearers, by themselves, cannot be used to get the lemming that throws the spear off the ground (that is, from a small platform or pit area). They also require large quantities to be provided in order to build a sufficiently large bridge to cross, say, a water pool. Furthermore, whilst they can be used to make a "blocker", this requires ideal positioning and, sometimes, very fiddly execution - such as when 2 spears need to be placed perfectly side-by-side.
Grenaders, now that they have the smaller crater, again require large quantities to make it through a sizable chunk of terrain. They also, by themselves, cannot be used to remove terrain immediately beneath the thrower's feet (and are therefore not "replacement bombers", as such).
The range/arc element of the skills can also be limiting: if a platform is too near the top of a level, the projectile is useless since is simply disappears offscreen. They also require a navigable area that's at least the length and height of the full arc in order to be immediately useful; otherwise, other preparatory measures must be taken to ensure their usefulness.
A good example of this is in the attached solution to Crazy 4 Lemming Express for the 4-skills-only challenge. Note that, in order to throw a single spear to turn the worker lemming around at the end, it's necessary to blow many holes in the terrain above the lemmings to clear a path for that spear.
So, are they powerful? Sure! Are they very powerful? I would argue not so much. Are they too powerful? Definitely not.
Since the proposed state would change the length of time they remain on the spot, for better or worse (i.e. sometimes it would be shorter, sometimes longer, depending on the layout of the map and the location of the thrower), I'd say this would be a good move to a) add further definition and uniqueness to the skill, and b) enhance and refine its usefulness as a delaying skill.
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Added a poll.
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I voted for option 3, but 2 would be equally good.
Just to clarify something: does this mean the thrower would start walking immediately upon impact/disappearance of the projectile, or would there be some time (even 1 frame) to repeat-assign?
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Alright, there's not much preference for option #3. The only person who's voted for it has stated their position and said they'd also be fine with current behavior but longer window to assign.
I guess my next question is - to those of you who'd like a longer assignment window, what's the reason for this? Is it simply convenience, or do you have ideas that would benefit from it beyond this? Do you think the period in which assignment of a new skill should be possible, should start earlier than it currently does, or end later, or both? (And by how much?)
If there is any difference in the duration, it would need a unique state. Keeping the same duration but just shifting it to a bit earlier would not need a unique state, it could still use the shrugger - but that doesn't seem to be what the preference is.
The other thing that comes to mind is, if it's a "looker" state, should it end early if the projectile impacts before it would usually finish? There is also the option of a Looker falling down (either while remaining a looker, or - my preference - transitioning to a faller, and then upon landing, a walker) if the ground underneath him is removed - something a Shrugger does not do. Even if we keep the same duration, perhaps just to allow for this (which feels more natural to me, and the Shrugger's behavior is more kept to preserve existing content) we want to introduce a Looker state...
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Hard to put my finger on exactly why, but I feel the lemming becomes available for re-assignment too quickly. A longer delay would be beneficial from the gameplay point of view since when you spam several grenaders you could see more of the effects before you choose to assign, and it would be easier to avoid the very common mistake of assigning one too many. (Of course, spamming shouldn't be the most common use case and maybe we shouldn't be bothered too much about what it feels like.) Still, even in general it just feels quicker than I would expect it to be at the moment.
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Hard to put my finger on exactly why, but I feel the lemming becomes available for re-assignment too quickly. A longer delay would be beneficial from the gameplay point of view since when you spam several grenaders you could see more of the effects before you choose to assign, and it would be easier to avoid the very common mistake of assigning one too many. (Of course, spamming shouldn't be the most common use case and maybe we shouldn't be bothered too much about what it feels like.) Still, even in general it just feels quicker than I would expect it to be at the moment.
Fair enough - I hadn't even considered should the window start later to be honest. Do you feel the duration of the assignment period is okay (and it just needs to start later), or...?
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The use of spamming has been an issue in some of the easier "fun style" levels and has hurt my opinion of these skills rather than helped them, honestly. The only skills that come even close in terms of "seriously, why would you do that, level designer?" potential is excessive use of builders/platformers to cross stupidly large gaps.
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I feel the lemming becomes available for re-assignment too quickly
I'd actually be in favour of the window starting earlier. However, as long as the window is longer, later is fine.
The use of spamming has been an issue in some of the easier "fun style" levels and has hurt my opinion of these skills rather than helped them, honestly. The only skills that come even close in terms of "seriously, why would you do that, level designer?" potential is excessive use of builders/platformers to cross stupidly large gaps.
I have to take issue with this general sentiment. There can be many reasons why a level designer would choose to include large gaps for building across, including but not limited to:
a) enforcing multitasking
b) ensuring the builders are required for that particular task, and cannot be used elsewhere (and maybe it's not practical to simply make the gap smaller)
c) aesthetic reasons, which are important; as much as I love Oh No! More Lemmings, a lot of its levels are very boring to look at because the designers prioritised puzzles over aesthetics. Original Lemmings is a far more iconic game, arguably because its levels are far more recognisable, with this being arguably due to their aesthetic value
d) to make a longer, more epic level; one-screeners are great, but the occasional builder-fest is fine by me, especially if the music is good 8-)
And, I wish there were a better term than "spamming" to mean "repetitive skill assignment"; it infuses it with a negativity it doesn't necessarily deserve. Chucking loads of Grenades at a wall to blow a path through it is great fun! Also, it's a fact that repetitition is one of the best ways to learn, understand, and get better at things. I've learned way more about all of the skills by being given opportunities to "spam" them than by following the detailed instructions of a level that only provides enough of the skills necessary to complete its prescribed solution.
Grr! >:( Rant over :lemcat:
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Okay so, a "stay in place until impact" is clearly out - only one person voted for that. So, I think it's time to say absolutely for sure, that's ruled out. There is about equal support between keeping it as-is, or making it longer.
Making it longer would require introducing a new state. However, the flipside to this is that a new state means it doesn't have to behave exactly like the shrugger - of particular interest is the possibility for the Looker to instantly revert to a faller if the terrain underneath him is removed, unlike the shrugger who does not.
Is that behavior worthwhile, keeping in mind that a Grenader who removes terrain under his own feet would undergo a thrower->faller transition without ever becoming a shrugger/looker anyway, so it would only become relevant if another lemming does the removal? I think the worthwhileness of this change is ultimately going to determine whether or not a new state gets implemented here, and if one does, there's no reason why the duration can't be extended as well. On the other hand, if that change isn't worthwhile, then I don't feel that adding a new state just to extend the new assignment duration is worth it. This does not, however, preclude making the assignment phase start later (while retaining the same duration as it currently has).
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+1 for either making the assignment phase longer, or at the very least making it start sooner rather than later. As a last resort, leaving as it is would be sort of OK (in that I'd rather have the skill as it is than not have it at all); however, reliance on direction select, highlight lemming, and skill queuing is not a good attribute for a skill to have, so the more of this that can be removed in the physics of the skill, the better.
A "looker" phase would be something unique to these skills, and makes more sense than a shrugger visually. The chances to make it a longer state, make it behave differently to the shrugger, give the thrower skills more character, etc, seem to me like good enough reasons to implement it.
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reliance on direction select, highlight lemming, and skill queuing is not a good attribute for a skill to have
Throwing skills are only reliant on these if you are spamming them, in the middle of a crowd or a stream of incoming lemmings. This is not a typical use scenario, and generally speaking, a level that requires it is probably not a good one regardless of how easy it is to perform on the UI side of things. So this is a very minor concern at worst.
I appreciate the uniqueness of a different looker state, but I don't accept that in and of itself as being a reason, with these other things being "while we're at it, let's also change so-and-so". I need to see that the benefits, physics-wise, of having the different duration (or other behaviors, which is the more likely angle here) outweigh the hassle of implementing it - which also means adding another extra sprite that custom lemming spritesets must create, don't forget. The aesthetic advantages are the bonus.