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Other Lemmings Projects => Levels for other engines => Topic started by: exit on June 14, 2014, 01:25:15 am

Title: cLemmings
Post by: exit on June 14, 2014, 01:25:15 am
This topic will be the official topic for cLemmings, a new Lemmings game (or rather set of Lemmings games). Basically, I made 113 levels to replace all of the old levels, with the exception of the first seven "tutorial" levels, because those don't need to be replaced. I'm going to put the website up sometime soon (soon meaning in a week or two, but no promises). The attachment is a zip file that you just need to extract and then you can run it. I'm currently working on an ONML version, but it may take quite a while (at least a month or so, and that's if I basically make and test levels for eight hours every day) for it to be done. cLemmings (the "c" stands for "custom", I couldn't think of any other names) was made with the Lemmix level editor by Eric Langedijk and runs on the LemmixPlayer Lemmings clone, also by Eric Langedijk.

Like I said, this topic will be the official topic for cLemmings, so if you have any comments, questions, or ideas, post them here.

Thanks to Eric Langedijk for creating the LemmixPlayer clones and the Lemmix level editor, without those two programs this wouldn't have been possible.

To go to the cLemmings website, click the following link: <a href="http://www.clemmings.altervista.org/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">www.clemmings.altervista.org</a>

For newer versions of cLemmings, look through the thread.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 14, 2014, 07:11:39 am
Would you like me to build you a Lemmix Player like the official ones (ie: all the files packed into one EXE, instead of heaps of LVL files and needing to use LookForLVLFiles)? I can do it on either traditional Lemmix (the version you're used to) or NeoLemmix (an updated version, less buggy, supports finer placement of pieces, but levels may need some minor adjustments), just as easy either way. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 14, 2014, 02:26:39 pm
Thanks for asking!

It would be fine if you could just make it into one executable file, but if you could give me the tool for packing the executable file, it would help because I'm planning on updating it. And I'm also making an Oh No! More Lemmings version, like I said in the previous post. It will really help.

If you don't want to give me the tool, that's fine, too.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 14, 2014, 04:27:50 pm
It's not so much about whether I'd like to give it to you, but more whether you'd be able to use it. In reality, what I'd be doing is recompiling Lemmix from source code, using your data instead of the official game's data. If you're up to that, you can get the source code right here (use Delphi 7 to compile it). Includes the updates by ccexplore; but doesn't include any of my NeoLemmix updates (I haven't released the NeoLemmix source yet).


There isn't really any "tool" as such, apart from Delphi 7 to compile it (and the Lem Resource Builder tool, which is included - in both source and compiled forms - with the Lemmix source; this just packs the data files into a compressed format that Lemmix uses internally), and a tool to pack the individual LVL files into compressed DAT files (some level editors can do this (LemEdit and Lemmix can; jLevelBuilder can't; NeoLemEdit can't yet but will be able to in future), as can Mindless's Lemmings Tools; I have my own tool for this but it doesn't do anything that these other ones can't, it just automates a lot of the work).

Anyway, I'll send you a PM shortly to sort out some of the finer details.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 14, 2014, 05:23:26 pm
Anyway, on the subject of the levels themself, I've played through Fun so far. (Wow, me actually playing levels instead of just making them... probably helps that this is on Lemmix rather than Lemmini though.)

I found the levels quite interesting, although around the middle of Fun there seemed to be far too much reliance on builders. I also noticed two levels in a row (Lemming Athletics and Huff And Puff) which were extremely similar, I don't know if that was intentional but if not you might want to re-order them a bit. I also don't quite understand why the save requirement is so low on Frantic Lemmings; it's possible (and very easy) to even save 100% there.

"A Towering Problem" was one level that I found to be particularly good, although if I'm not mistaken doesn't one of the official game levels have that name?

I'm also not sure if you're aware, but it's possible to complete Pink Lemming with just two skills. I get the feeling that level was meant to be a bit more complex than that.

Anyway, good designs! I'll probably have a go at Tricky soon (I did already play the first level actually; also quite a good one).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 14, 2014, 06:43:25 pm
If there isn't a tool for compiling you're welcome to compile it. But I was just asking so that you wouldn't have to compile it every time I updated it. But since you're compiling the actual code itself, like I said, you're welcome to compile it, and if you do, thanks in advance.

About Lemming Athletics and Huff and Puff, there are Tricky repeats of those levels which are maybe five levels or so apart, gives or take a few. But for the fact that they're close to each other, that's a bit hard to explain, but let me try.
I made the levels in order from last to first (in order of playing). Why? Because I thought that if I made a bunch of Fun levels first, then went onto the Tricky and Taxing, I would be burn't out by the time I got to Mayhem. Also, I find it easier to make easier versions of a level than making a level harder, which is the way the guys at DMA did it. I think it's fine that they look alike because the solutions are very different (if you did lemming athletics by making them all athletes).

"A Towering Problem" Is the name of Wicked 8 (I think), but it also repeats in Taxing. I made it the name on purpose.[I actually should have said "named it that way on purpose]

That reminds me about something else. In every level rating there's one level that's harder then the rest, in Fun I consider it to be the Lemming Tower, which belongs in Tricky, but it's a building exercise, so it wouldn't be of Tricky level "nature". Why did this come up at A Towering Problem? Because the repeat is the Taxing "harder-than-the-rest" level.

I think in Pink Lemming (know what it's referencing?) you can use the two miners to make a straight fall into the exit. You could also use one miner because there's a hole in the left side. But still, it's a Fun level, so I won't give you two miners because beginners would say:"How on Earth" (cheesy reference to ONML).

You may have also noticed that the Fun levels are getting a bit tricky towards the end (not for you, but they are harder than the fun levels). I did this because I think that the Fun levels and even the first few Tricky levels are a bit too easy.

You may have noticed this in levels like Not so Fast!, as I put two traps in there (there's also a little surprise in case you try to bash through the giant pile of terrain).

I forgot to mention that the small save amount in Frantic Lemmings is due to my forgetting to change it when I copied the level (it has a Tricky repeat which is similar to Cascade).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 15, 2014, 06:41:03 am
I'm saving replays of these, so once I've beaten all of them I'll send you those so you can see how I did it. I'm currently near the end of Tricky, I don't remember off-hand exactly what level number.

EDIT: (Removed at exit's request)
There's the everything-in-one-file Lemmix player for it. :) (Exit mentioned in a PM that he's going to be away for a while, hence why I'm posting it instead of letting him do so.)

EDIT: I've now completed up to (but not including) Taxing 20. The levels are starting to get challenging. :D Taxing 19 was especially good (try to save 100% :P ).

I'll do detailed comments later, but a few things I feel I need to point out now:

> Taxing 11 is a repeat of one of the levels in Tricky (or might've even been Fun); I actually found the Taxing version to be by far the easier of the two. The only thing that's harder about it is the time limit.
> There's a few too many levels that rely mostly or solely on bomber timing for these difficulty; these kind of levels usually aren't looked on too positively from what I can gather. (Indeed, that's the reason I got rid of the countdown in my level packs; because I do like to be able to use the bomber for its unique nature (small area of effect, requires a lemming to be sacrificed) but the timer was just an annoyance that added nothing except an element of trial-and-error and guesswork.)
> Even more so than bomber timing, you're REALLY overusing the "hold the crowd between two blockers (or a blocker and a wall) while one lemming does the work" concept. It's definitely possible for this kind of level to be good, and even for it to be hard; and the formula works very well for Fun/Tricky-type levels, but by mid/late Taxing, I'd personally expect to see this sort of die off a bit.

Now to be fair, these are the kind of things that everyone does at first. My early packs (the Cheapo-based Lemmings Plus packs) were also full of these kinds of flaws (as well as over-reliance on builders); even the more-recent LPDOS exhibits them to a degree. Don't get me wrong - there are also many VERY good levels in here, you definitely have a LOT of potential, and I'm looking forward to the rest of this pack and your next one. :D

I'm saving replays as I go, I'll send them to you when I've completed them all. :P
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 24, 2014, 09:23:15 pm
All right, I'm back.

Thanks for the comments. I will definitely keep them in mind.

I have to tell you something about your downloads. When I click on the link, it takes me to mediafire to download it. I download it (the green button), and when it downloads, it says that the file is malicious and the browser blocks it. So if you could just attach the file, I would be able to download it.

-For Taxing 11, yes, it is a repeat of one of the later Tricky levels. The reason the solution is easier is because it is meant to be a repeat level with just a lower time limit to make it harder. I just went through it and saw that I could move the time limit down to two minutes (in the next update), because the building is very minimal. You might notice that some of my levels have extreme amounts, such as a level having way too much time, a level having an excessive amount of a certain skill, etc. This is either to trick the player into thinking of a solution that won't work, or is a product of my testing (you will notice that some levels have nine minutes of time, when you need only a couple of minutes. This is because the level is either not meant to be challenging in the means of time, or because I forgot to lower the time limit after I was testing).

-I can only count 4 (End With a BANG! doesn't really count as a bomber-timing level) levels that actually require you to use bombers in the solution in the Taxing levels up to 20 (5 overall on the taxing rating). So, I don't get what you mean by that. Maybe you solved the levels differently than intended. (I guess though, that four levels is a fifth of 20, and 5 is a sixth of 30, but in my opinion, they aren't that big of a piece).

-I see what you mean, but, like I said in the above section, this is a result of the level focusing on one part. For example, Simultaneous Action has a blocker trap for the lemmings (after you stop the splatting), but the level is focused on the fact that you have to control both lemmings at the same time (hence the name). That doesn't exactly meet the criteria of "lemmings are hemmed in by the blocker and one lemming goes ahead", so I'll give another example. Fire Fun; the lemmings are closed in by the blocker, and one lemming goes ahead to do all of the work. That's because the level focuses on the getting through those thin poles. Also, notice how in the original games, they used that technique in a different way, so I can see what you're coming at because those levels were really easy.

As for "everyone doing that at first", I'm not a level creating beginner, I've just not been part of the community until now. I've created many levels, just not a big project like this yet (I used to end up deleting my levels because I didn't like them, instead of editing them. I don't know why I did that). So, like I said, these are intentional, because I don't want to make the level too hard. You might notice that the repeat of Fire Fun makes the player hold the lemmings differently. Basically, I has the option to make the player not use blockers, but decided against it. I can see why you're complaining though, because you're used to levels being really tricky in every way possible, but still not making it so that it is too hard to both execute and figure out. The Mayhem levels are that way. In fact, 18 of the Mayhem levels don't use the standard blocker trap or at least use a creative way to free the lemmings/blocker, 11 of which don't use a blocker trap at all. So you'll probably find the Mayhem levels more satisfying.

I'm also noticing that you are saying that my levels are too easy. I tried to make it so that the difficulty gradually went up, with slight jumps in between difficulty ratings.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 24, 2014, 11:35:25 pm
cLemmings 1.1 is now OUT!

There are lots of level changes:
Fun 29 - raise save limit
Tricky 10 - drastically raise save limit
Tricky 27 - remake completely new level
Taxing 9 - remove backroute
Taxing 10 - change time limit to three minutes, change builder amount to 15
Taxing 11 - remake completely new level
Taxing 15 - change time limit to 4 minutes
Taxing 26 - change time limit to 2 minutes
Taxing 27 - change time limit to 2 minutes, change builder count to 10, change name to "M.C. Escher's "Relativity"" (an actual drawing by M.C. Escher)
Taxing 30 - remake solution
Mayhem 19/Tricky 30 - remove backroute
Levels have been aesthetically changed

Some levels have been moved, too:
Fun 9 - replace with Fun 14
Fun 20 - move to Fun 18
Tricky 11 - move to Tricky 6
Taxing 9 - move to Taxing 12
Taxing 10 - move to Taxing 11

Note: Tricky 11 is an impossible level. This has been fixed in 1.3.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 25, 2014, 12:06:29 am
Since you're working on an update, I'll give you my replays so far in case I've found any backroutes. I haven't played Mayhem yet though; so this only has the first 3 ranks.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 27, 2014, 03:42:19 am


The cLemmings website is now up!
It also has a lemmings level creation tutorial (for the lemmixPlayer), for those who need a better understanding of level creation.
I will include a thanks to namida when I obtain the newer cLemmings lemmixPlayer.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 27, 2014, 06:02:45 am
Check your PM's re: title screen graphic. Once that's sorted I can give you the player; I already have everything else ready. :)

By the way - a lot of the Mayhem levels seem to have very low save requirements. For example, "Going Through Hell" (i think that was the name; the one that gives you 80 builders - which is also FAR more than you need, I think I used about 12?), the requirement was in the 40's but I quite easily managed to save in the 90s. In fact, with a bit more effort, I could've probably raised that to 98%, although I don't think 100% is possible. Another one is "The Boiler Room"; the requirement is 40% but it's possible without too much hassle to save 100% (by using a similar trick to the one used in the intended solution of PSYCHO 19 from LPDOS). Also, there seems to still be a lot of levels that are almost exclusively "build, build, build", and I still am finding that the majority of levels involve holding lemmings between blockers while a worker solves the rest (which is often the build build build part); I personally feel that by Mayhem-level difficulty ranks, these levels should be not nessecerially absent but definitely not even close to every level... although there are also some very good levels in here too. I remember thinking that (I think it was these two anyway, I'll check once I finish the few I've still got left to go) Mayhem 5 was awful - but then Mayhem 6 more than made up for it and is probably my favorite level of your pack so far.

Once I finish all the levels (I'm close), I'll give more detailed feedback - not nessecerially on every level, but any that I feel are either really bad, really good, or I just in general have something to say about.

One other thing I noticed - you have a lot of levels with 95 lemmings, which is a somewhat unusual number (nothing wrong with this of course, it's just not something I've seen often). Does this number have some significance to you or is it just random?
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 27, 2014, 08:50:56 am
Okay, here's my detailed feedback:

General - A few of these levels have names that are identical to those from the original game. "Lemmings Lemmings Everywhere" and "The Boiler Room" are the first to come to mind. Not that I've never been guilty of doing that... xD

Fun 1-7 - I think you should fill these slots in with your own levels, just a thought. Don't have to be training levels, could just be really easy ones.
Fun 8 - A buried exit is a bit of a harsh start, even if it's visible where it is. :P
Fun 14 - The level isn't bad in itself, but I think it should be moved to a later position in the pack.
Fun 15 - Well you know my opinion on bomber-timing in general, but I especially think this is far too early a position for it. Recall that the original game didn't have any bomber timing until mid-Tricky.
Fun 16 - I like the design. It somewhat reminds me of Wimpy 20 / PSYCHO 8 from LPDOS.
Fun 19 - No real comments either way about this level (it's not bad, but it doesn't particularly stand out either), but a small challenge - try to beat it with only 1 builder (other skills staying as-is). :P
Fun 21 - I'm glad to see you moved this, the similarity to "Lemming Athletics" isn't so noticable when they're a few levels apart.
Fun 25 - This is a good level, but I'm not 100% sure about the placement of it - I think it would've been more suited to early Tricky.
Fun 26 - This level is one of the best examples of what I mean about builder-heavy levels. It probably would be a good level if these kind of levels were rarer, but as it stands, it's just one among many builder-overload levels.
Fun 27 - I already mentioned about solving it with just two skills; it's a good level though. :)
Fun 30 - I think this was a good level to finish Fun with. :)

Tricky 1 - ...and a good level to open Tricky with too.
Tricky 2 - Not a bad level, but I feel this repeat is far too close to the original version in the level order.
Tricky 3 - Another example of overreliance on builders.
Tricky 4 - This is quite a good level.
Tricky 5 - This is a very good level too, although as you might notice in my replay, it's easily possible to save far more than required. In fact, I would've probably saved close to 100% (not quite since I used a bomber, but close) if I'd paid more attention to the clock.
Tricky 6 - This was also a very good level, though maybe should've been placed a bit later.
Tricky 8 - Now, this is an example of a level that does use a lot of builders, but is still a good level, because there's plenty more to it than just "block off the crowd, build build build maybe use a basher build build, release crowd".
Tricky 9 - This is another example of one that uses builders but isn't bad - because it's quite short, and the thematic design makes it much less annoying.
Tricky 10 - This level is placed FAR too early in the pack. It is however a very good level.
Tricky 11 - Now this is another example of the kind of builder-heavy level that isn't so great.
Tricky 12 - And this is another example of the kind of builder-heavy level that is good, although this is also another one that's too hard for its position. To be honest, I think this should've been a Mayhem level.
Tricky 14 - This is a pretty fun level.
Tricky 15 - Firstly, this is another excessive-building-to-the-point-it's-tedious level, and secondly, remember how I mentioned originally about "Lemming Athletics" and the level following it? You've got the same two levels' repeats in a row here too, just in the reverse order. I'd say move them a bit further away from each other too.
Tricky 18 - This level, and its repeat, are two of my favorite levels from this pack. :D
Tricky 20 - This was also a pretty good level.
Tricky 22 - This was also a pretty great level, though maybe again a bit hard for the position.
Tricky 23 - This level is an example of one that is annoyingly heavy on builders, but at the same time, the parts of the level outside of the excessive building are actually pretty good.
Tricky 24 - This is FAR too hard for Tricky; but it is a great level.
Tricky 26 - Another mostly-builder level.
Tricky 27 - The new level here is quite good.
Tricky 29 - This is an almost perfect example of the builder-heavy levels.
Tricky 30 - Not a bad level, but it's too easy for its position.

Taxing 1 - This is pretty good!
Taxing 2 - The big gap between the pillar coming from the top and the one with steel doesn't really add anything to the level; that aside it's pretty good.
Taxing 3 - This is a good level! I like the design, too.
Taxing 4 - This is also a good one.
Taxing 5 - Now, here's another example of a level that uses builders a lot without being bad. This was actually the first level that gave me a lot of trouble.
Taxing 6 - This one wasn't so impressive...
Taxing 7 - Bomber timing. Yuck.
Taxing 8 - This one was good!
Taxing 9 - I don't remember this one, is it new? (It's not mentioned as new on your list) At any rate, it's another builder-heavy one with not much else to offer.
Taxing 10 - This isn't a bad level, though check my replay - the fire doesn't quite work as well as you expected, I think. Unless that was your intention.
Taxing 11 - Same goes here as for its earlier version.
Taxing 12 - This is a VERY good level.
Taxing 13 - Same goes as for the earlier version.
Taxing 14 - More bomber timing. >_>
Taxing 15 - This probably should be in Mayhem, but I thought it was a good level. Though this trick is a bit overused by now (not meaning by you as such, just in general in Lemmings levels).
Taxing 17 - I actually didn't find this one too bad.
Taxing 18 - This was another one that took me a while to work out. Not a bad level. And I LOVE the name.
Taxing 19 - I think this level took me the longest to solve out of the pack. It's pretty good.
Taxing 20 - This one was quite good too.
Taxing 21 - This level is EXCELLENT!
Taxing 22 - This one isn't really any harder than its earlier version...
Taxing 23 - This one took me quite a while to work out too! Nice level.
Taxing 24 - This is another case of a level that contains good parts, but is padded out with a lot of pointless building too. This level would be a lot better with the middle 1/3rd cut out.
Taxing 25 - This is a good level. :D
Taxing 26 - So is this.
Taxing 27 - And this.
Taxing 28 - And this.
Taxing 29 - And this.
Taxing 30 - This, though, is far too easy for the final level of Taxing.
(On a side note, I think Taxing is by far the most well-made rank in your pack - sure it has a few duds, but the majority of the levels are really good.)

Mayhem 1 - This was a pretty good level, though you give (not require - this is a completely different matter here) far more builders than are nessecary. :P Come on, THIS. IS. MAYHEM!
Mayhem 2 - Either this level is far too easy for Mayhem, or it has a major backroute that I'm not sure how you missed. I'm guessing the latter, given the layout.
Mayhem 4 - Not a bad level (though why are you saying "by DMA Design" on a fanmade level...?), but it's too easy for Mayhem.
Mayhem 5 - As I said before, this level is horrible... more excessive building while blockers hold the lemmings back, and a completely unexpected trap at the end to boot (yes, hidden traps can be good, but this is a case of where it's just annoying - it is kind of hard to explain the difference).
Mayhem 6 - Okay, so I wasn't thinking of Mayhem 5 and Mayhem *6* with my comment before. However, this is a pretty good level, but again a bit on the easy side.
Mayhem 7 - Okay, this is the level I was talking about in the above post. This is my favorite level from this pack! Well done on this one!
Mayhem 8 - This one was annoying...
Mayhem 9 - But this one was pretty good.
Mayhem 10 - This one was also quite good. Although, you may want to adjust the placement of the water - if a lemming tries to climb up the steel block in the bottom-right, it drowns. (Doesn't happen to lemmings merely turning around at it; they have to try to *climb* it)
Mayhem 11 - Pointless at first glance, and then hidden traps in the wall... this is not a very good level, sorry to say. Though I also think that perhaps some variation on the design could make this one into a good level.
Mayhem 12 - This one was really good.
Mayhem 13 - Build, build, build, build, build, build, build... >_>
Mayhem 14 - Pretty much identical to one of the good Taxing levels, except with bomber timing instead of fairly-manageable diggers. Unlike its earlier version which was one of the best levels in the pack IMO, this level is awful. I would feel SO sorry for anyone trying to play this without Lemmix especially.
Mayhem 15 - This one was pretty good, I thought. Required a bit of clever thinking.
Mayhem 16 - Build build build build build...
Mayhem 17 - This one was fairly good. Though why the gap under the exit (though that can be said for the earlier version too of course), it doesn't really add anything to the level. Perhaps remove the trap and reduce the number of builders so the gap actually serves a purpose (to let the worker pass)?
Mayhem 18 - With this one having a creative lower half, as well as a fairly limited number of builders, this was actually a fairly good level despite being builder-heavy.
Mayhem 19 - This was very good!
Mayhem 20 - ... did you actually intend for this to simply be a matter of building onto the top of the block, or is that a backroute? (If so, I have no idea what you intended, unless it was bomb the whole way through in which case, BOMBER TIMING >_>)
Mayhem 21 - Not a bad level as such but why is the save requirement so low? My solution saved 95%, I could probably have improved that a bit further if I tried. And especially given how many builder-heavy levels you have, seeing "80 builders" in the skillset almost made me want to skip this one at first, until I noticed it didn't actually rely so heavily on them as such. (The amount of blockers and bombers is also somewhat excessive, but at least it isnt' off-putting as such.) ... I do hope you weren't intending for the player to bomb their way up to the exit from underneath it, though...
Mayhem 22 - Another EXCELLENT level, as I mentioned in the comment on its earlier version.
Mayhem 23 - Build build build build build build build! Oh my bad, need a floater first... but still.
Mayhem 24 - Build build build build build build!
Mayhem 25 - As I mentioned in the above post, this is a great level but once again, why is the requirement so low, especially considering that 100% is possible without too much difficulty?
Mayhem 26 - Left half: BUILD BUILD BUILD BUILD BUILD! Right half: Far too easy for Mayhem. Trapping the crowd involved an interesting trick, though.
Mayhem 27 - Now this was another EXCELLENT level.
Mayhem 28 - This one wasn't too bad either.
Mayhem 29 - This is a decent level, though a bit on the easy side.
Mayhem 30 - I think my solution might be a backroute, but if not, this is FAR too easy for Mayhem at all, let alone the final level of it.

So in short - there are some absolutely excellent levels in here, but some feel like you've either designed something and not wanted to improve/discard it, or that you ran out of ideas and had spaces to fill. You definitely have potential as a level designer; indeed my earliest levels were a lot like this pack, whereas the ones I make these days (as far as I can tell) are thought of quite highly - so I am DEFINITELY not saying give up on making levels.

By the way, I attached my replays for Mayhem.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 27, 2014, 04:15:56 pm
The names are fully intentional.
My replies to your criticism/comments:

Fun 1-7 - I wanted it to be simple, and I didn't want to remake tutorial levels.
Fun 8 - You don't have to bash to the exit, they walk into it on the top of the block.
Fun 15 - This was meant as an introduction to bomber timing, but it became a two in one because the player had to think to make the timing easier on them.
Fun 16 - I haven't played your LPDOS.
Fun 25 - Like I've said, the game becomes harder quicker, so some of the Fun levels should go into early Tricky.

Tricky 2 - If I would've made the gap larger, I feel like one level would be too easy or too hard for it's place
Tricky 5 - The first few Tricky levels are meant to be easier! I'm not going to make levels that would fit in early Taxing and put them in Tricky. The level is Cascade-LIKE, not a Cascade level in fire. The first few Tricky levels are meant to have multiple solutions. If I'd wanted it to be a Cascade level, I wouldn't have included the bombers.
Tricky 6 - Are you playing the old version of cLemmings? If so, the newer version has the level called "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" as Tricky 6, which in my opinion is perfectly fine in its place.
Tricky 10 - One moment you're saying the levels are too easy and the next you say that they're are too hard. Not to sound rude, but, seriously? How many times do I have to state this to you; the levels will become harder more quickly, but not too hard.
Tricky 12 - Mayhem? I think that's a bit too harsh. "I Have a Cunning Plan" from the original Lemmings is also a "Mayhem" level by those criteria.
Tricky 15 - I don't think the placement is wrong; the solutions are very different. And Tricky 15 focuses on the part where you build into the fire blower, NOT the building.
Tricky 24 - This is the "harder-than-the-rest" level for Tricky.
Tricky 30 - You're probably playing the older version, because I removed the backroute by placing steel in the space.

Taxing 2 - The gap is to get players to think into going down there (not all players will do this, obviously), and the steel is just so that people can't directly bash through the pillar.
Taxing 9 - Yes, I completely remade the level in the new version because of your saying *cough*complaining*cough* of it being too easy.
Taxing 10 - Intentional.
Taxing 15 - Same as Tricky 24
Taxing 24 - Just a question, did you go into the cave ever? There is another solution that includes going over the cave.
Taxing 30 - Changed in the update.

Mayhem 1 - I don't care about the excess amount of builders, because it gives this level more solutions (e.g. going under the rock formation).
Mayhem 2 - (I haven't watched the replays, so sorry) Over the barbecue, right? The inside is meant for people who don't know about that trick. I was aware of the backroute.
Mayhem 4 - I forgot to add Lemmings, in front of the by, but that's what I mean by it. I'm not going to fix it, because "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it", and "It ain't broke".
Mayhem 5 - It's meant to be hated, and the trap is really evil. Did you notice the excessive amount of decoration? It started when I added so much of the hanging grass that the index was up to 150, and I decided I wanted to fill it up to the maximum 256 terrain and 16 objects.
Mayhem 10 - (This may sound a bit snippy, but still) Then don't go there! Like you said, THIS. IS. MAYHEM!
Mayhem 11 - It was meant to be a spinoff of "Last One Out is a Rotten Egg!", but I decided to make it more interesting.
Mayhem 13 - This is strategic building, the stuff everyone hates.
Mayhem 14 - Why feel sorry? I'm sorry, but I really don't get what you mean.
Mayhem 17 - The gap is so that people have to build to get into the exit, instead of just walking in. It's meant to puzzle people that just play lemmings, and don't study it.
Mayhem 20 - You aren't meant to be able to do that! I guess I'll have to fix it by, oh, I don't know, adding a piece of steel, . . . ;P
Mayhem 21 - You are supposed to bomb up the wall, which is why you get the excessive amounts, I'll have to fix that too.
Mayhem 25 - I never even thought of that, so I'll make the requirement 100%.
Mayhem 27 - Thank you, I think so too.
Mayhem 28 - This is supposed to be the hardest level in the game, do you think so?
Mayhem 30 - Have to fix the backroute.

Finally! I actually needed somebody to fully test the game. Thanks.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 27, 2014, 06:42:32 pm
cLemmings 1.2

Mayhem 20 - removed backroute
Mayhem 21 - removed backroute
Mayhem 25 - raised save requirement to 100%
Mayhem 30 - removed backroute

New cLemmings lemmixPlayer, which includes the new logo and icon
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 28, 2014, 01:51:28 am
A word of general advice - don't take the criticism so harshly. It's just my opinions offering advice on what I did/didn't like in this pack; I'm not trying to insult your pack, I'm trying to explain what I didn't like and why (and on the flipside, what I did like and why). Maybe have a look at the level review games people were doing a while back - you'll notice that some levels from the official game are almost universally liked ("It's Hero Time" and "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" being the two most noticable), some almost universally hated (if I remember correctly, bomber timing came up a lot here) - and most crucially, some levels had wildly different opinions, for example some people mentioned "Save Me" as one of their favorites while others mentioned it as one of their most hated. Likewise, with my pack Lemmings Plus II, there's one level in particular where opinions are very polar, and that's Cunning 4 "Droppin' Bombs", which is bascially a level with an overhead bar which you blow holes in with bombers, then bomb other lemmings as they fall to create a path through obstacles. (Just for the record, LPII has the same instant bombers as in the NeoLemmix engine, even though LPII itself just uses a slightly-modified traditional Lemmix player - it's LPIII that's being built for Neo.) Some players have said it's a very interesting concept making great use of the instant bombers, while other players find it annoying and fidgety - and my own opinion of the level lies in the middle; I find it to be fairly decent but it doesn't stand out as overly special.

Anyway, I'll have your player ready within the next couple of hours or so - just got some IRL stuff to do first.

EDIT: I should mention, apart from the levels that are completely *new* in the update, I haven't replayed any of the older ones (since I solved up to the end of Taxing before you made the update). The Mayhem levels though, I played the latest versions.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on June 28, 2014, 03:42:41 am
Alright, here you go.
It includes slightly modified text on the title screen / scroller, your custom logo, and your custom icon for the EXE.
Also as per your request, there is no LookForLVLFiles option in the INI; but instead this option is *always* turned on.
It contains the V1.1 levels internally, so you only need to include LVL files that have changed since then when distributing it.
It contains all official graphic sets (including Xmas), but does *not* include the LPII styles or the Sega style - so basically, the same as what ccexplore's version of the Orig Lemmix player contains.

Edit: I noticed you said "and the steel is just so that people can't directly bash through the pillar." (Taxing 2). I fully understood why the steel was there, I wasn't meaning to say *that* shouldn't be - I was meaning the stuff between "the starting part" and "the pillar with the steel".
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on June 28, 2014, 04:15:28 pm
Thanks for the executable file. Now you don't need to do any more work.

I'm not taking the criticism to heart. I guess it's just that this is the first time I've actually been criticized on this. But thanks for the comments, I will definitely keep them in mind.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 01, 2014, 05:00:01 pm
Progress on Oh No More cLemmings!

The Havoc rating is currently finished. The demo included contains two Havoc levels, as Tame 9 and 10.
Once the game is finished, you might find the levels to be more difficult than the original cLemmings. This is because the Oh No More Lemmings tilesets are easier to work with (and make harder levels out of) than the Original Lemmings tilesets.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 08, 2014, 04:01:21 am
More progress on Oh No More cLemmings!

The Wicked rating is finally finished!
The attachment is the second demo, which includes the first two Havoc levels and the first two Wicked levels. The demo levels will be the first two levels of every rating, put sequentially as the first ten Tame levels; Tame 1 and 2 as Tame 1 and 2, Crazy 1 and 2 as Tame 3 and 4, etc. I have been updating the website with the release of every demo, so you will find the demos on the website's downloads page.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 10, 2014, 05:53:25 pm
One quick thing to say: Sorry for the people who don't like double posting, so I've decided that four posts in a row is enough. This will be the post where I will post the last three demos of Oh No More cLemmings (and the one prerelease).

Here is the Wild demo. I've now completed the Wild rating and will most likely be done by this weekend. The Crazy rating will be a very quick make and the Tame even quicker (for the record, it took me three days to make the Wild rating, only making two levels today).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: Minim on July 10, 2014, 08:54:52 pm
One quick thing to say: Sorry for the people who don't like double posting, so I've decided that four posts in a row is enough.

Double/Multiple posting is OK, but as long as they're not "Can you hear me?" posts you should be fine on this small forum.
Anyway, I'm excited about playing the demos...
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 10, 2014, 10:21:06 pm
Level 5 and Level 9 seem to be... well, I'm sure you know what I'm going to say here. Level 10 too, but I didn't actually properly play that one yet, so I can't say for sure.

Level 6 and 7 were very good! And I haven't actually been able to beat Level 8. xD Though Level 6 might be a bit hard for its position, at least if Level 5 is any indication of the average difficulty at that point.

One more thing: Is there any reason you continue to use an older version of the Lemmix player for this? I've been manually replacing it with the new one (not NeoLemmix, just a more up-to-date version of traditional Lemmix); but if there's a specific reason why you're using the old one, then I'll make sure to play on that in future; but not if there's no actual reason for it.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 10, 2014, 10:54:29 pm
I know what you're going to say, but just so you know, most of the levels will not be very "builder heavy" (even though I don't think using 7 or 8 builders is really builder heavy). Level 10 is not so much builder heavy as it is multitasking, though.

I tried to make the levels less tedious and more interesting. Level 6 is not too hard for its position as Wild 2 in my opinion, because it is the level that is meant to set the standard for Wild, somewhat tricky to figure out and tricky to execute.

I don't have the "newer" version (because I don't know where to obtain it) of LemmixPlayer. And you don't need to move the level files to a different game, you know. Please clarify. ???
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 11, 2014, 12:20:27 am
You can get the up-to-date versions of all Lemmix players (except CustLemm; check the CustLemmix topic for that one) in one download here:

Note that it doesn't include H93, but rather has H94 instead (since H94 contains all the H93 levels anyway). It also has a lot of players that aren't on the website, including Xmas 91/92 (both in a single player EXE), Covox and Prima (two small "demos" with unique levels), and one labelled "Extra" which contains the levels exclusvie to the Genesis version, the Sega Master System, and a few other non-standard levels from various versions (such as some of the alternate Tricky 21s, the levels that replace the VGASPEC levels in versions that didn't have those, etc).

Don't be confused by the lower version number; this version is more recent (for example, it reproduces a couple of mechanics that aren't reproduced accurately (or at all) in version 1.3, such as the nuke glitch, and also has improved fine-control). The reason behind the odd version numbering is a long story...
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: mobius on July 11, 2014, 02:46:03 am
I started play your levelset set today. I like the layout of your levels.  :)
I only got a little into tricky and was stumped on the dirt level with 3 Lemmings.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 11, 2014, 03:57:20 am
If you don't want to try to figure it out, you can just view namida's replay, but that would spoil the fun. Thanks for the comment though. I like that my levels can at least stump some people (I'm not meaning to offend you). This was more geared towards standard lemmings players that have some knowledge in lemmings but don't hack it and such.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 11, 2014, 09:06:29 am
exit: It helps to think of (or come up with on the spot) hints you can give people without outright telling them the solution. For example, for this one you could say...

Quote from: Highlight to read
Think simple; some parts of the level are actually unused even though they look like part of the solution.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 11, 2014, 05:06:28 pm

Note that it doesn't include H93, but rather has H94 instead . . .

For the next cLemmings I'll be making only an H93 version, and the next one will be the H94 version which will include the H93 levels (like the original game). Therefore, I will still use the "old" H93 player. So I won't be able to use the "newer" H93 and H94 version. If you could just give me the H93 lemmixplayer with the music, though, I would be happy. I won't be making a companion, covox, prima, Xmas 91/92, or Sega/Mac versions of cLemmings, though. I hope this doesn't disappoint anybody, but the reason for this is because those versions are only smaller sets of levels, or (in the case of Sega) are simply the game with some new levels.

I will then make hints accordingly to people wanting them, as you suggested.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 11, 2014, 07:06:43 pm
To make such an H93 player, I'd have to either undo the changes to turn H93 into H94, or I'd have to start from the H93 base and readd the music. If you're planning to do H94 eventually anyway, and include the H93 levels, I see very little reason to do this - why not just use the H94 player, and leave the H94 levels unaltered until you're ready to do them?

I'm actually considering looking into how hard it'd be to do some kind of customizable Lemmix player (not just where you can put your own level file in like CustLemm(ix), but actually fully customizable - set the number of ranks, levels per rank, etc, and build everything into the EXE, or alternatively into a single data file). Though if I were to do so, it'd (at least at first) be NeoLemmix only.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 11, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
Okay, I can do that. I wasn't trying to demand anything of you. I just wanted to know if you could (and wanted to).

That would be great! It would help a lot of people (including me). You might want to think of putting in a customisable music pattern (e.g. let people add in their own music with names like Track01, etc. and possibly name one track "end" or something like that for the last song). There are a lot of possibilities with this. It would be like the next Lemmings editor past level creation; game creation. You could have the program work sort of like lemmixplayer in that it would pick levels with names "xxxx.lvl". This would probably make it easier both on you as a designer and on users as you could probably alter some of the lemmixplayer code on how it finds levels, and it would be easy for users to use instead of making levelpacks like are in the actual game, of which the order could be very confusing. Obviously these are only ideas, so don't feel pressured. I suggest you start a topic on this if you are going to do it.

Wow, I only have three more Crazy levels to go before I finish the Crazy rating.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 11, 2014, 08:41:45 pm
I take back what I said about that one post being the "all demos here" post. Here's the Crazy demo. You might notice how the second Crazy level (Tame 4) has a release rate of zero. I assure you, that is intended. :P
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 12, 2014, 05:59:59 am
Okay, I can do that. I wasn't trying to demand anything of you. I just wanted to know if you could (and wanted to).

That would be great! It would help a lot of people (including me). You might want to think of putting in a customisable music pattern (e.g. let people add in their own music with names like Track01, etc. and possibly name one track "end" or something like that for the last song).

I'd have to come up with something specific (like naming one "end", as you suggest, though this probably isn't the exact approach I'd take) for a normal Lemmix version; but on NeoLemmix, the levels themself can actually include information on what music track to play. (If it doesn't have any specific setting, of course, it just resorts to the normal in-order.) NeoLemmix has a lot of cool extra features like that.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 12, 2014, 07:23:06 pm
I didn't mean to literally name it end, I just gave an example.

It seems like you're taking this as a serious idea. I will definitely look forward to this.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 12, 2014, 08:14:49 pm
I didn't mean to literally name it end, I just gave an example.

It seems like you're taking this as a serious idea. I will definitely look forward to this.

I had actually already been thinking about such an idea, so showing interest in it just gives me more motivation to do it. :P

And now that I think about it - the easiest way to allow special musics for certain levels in a traditional version would probably simply be to backport NeoLemmix's feature of allowing selection of music (similar to how I've backported a few NeoLemmix features that don't affect gameplay into CustLemmix, such as 32-color graphic sets).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 12, 2014, 08:20:53 pm
You could make it so that you have to name the music track by the level like the levels: 0201 for rating two level one. This way you wouldn't have to make a separate track and call it something else (like "end", for example), but could simply make a track named 0430 (if you have 4 ratings with 30 levels per rating).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 12, 2014, 08:39:39 pm
I had actually thought about that exact idea, but the main issue is - what if you want to use that track on more than one level? For example, if you had a special music for the final level of each rank. You'd then have to include four copies of it. Which is why I'm thinking along the lines of sticking to the default NeoLemmix system - that is, they're titled track_##, and it simply loops them once it passes a certain one (which doesn't have to be all of them - for example, you could include up to track_08 but tell it only to go as far as 6 in the automatic rotation, with 7 and 8 being reserved for special levels), plus two tracks with specific titles "gimmick" and "frenzy" though these would not be nessecary if your pack doesn't use gimmick and/or frenzy levels. Then, in each level, there's a setting for which music number to use; whatever value is set here, it plays that track, so on the levels you want the special music, you'd just set this to 7 / 8. (To make a level just use the normal rotation of musics, just set it to 0.) Between the normal rotation and any special musics (but not including the gimmick and frenzy ones), you can have a total of up to 252 tracks in the player, which should be more than enough. The reason the limit is 252 is because the music setting can only range from 0 to 255; and setting it to any of 0 / 253 / 254 / 255 have special functions.

Since this is a fairly effective system, that's why I'm thinking the easiest thing to do would be just backport this. The downside is of course that NeoLemEdit is the only level editor that supports the setting. (Lemmix Editor won't take too kindly to levels that have it set, whereas LemEdit should load them fine but might erase the setting when you save them again, not sure.) But you can always design the level in your preferred editor, then just use NeoLemEdit to make that change.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 12, 2014, 08:47:05 pm
You could also have the user create an ini file, and have them specify the special tracks, by having tracks named "special_x" and, have them do something like this:

(bit from the hypothetical ini file)
. . .

This would be easier than making separate tracks, and easier than having to open up all the level that need to have special music just to change one setting.

For gimmick and frenzy levels, you could do this:
gimmick_0=(I don't know how gimmick levels would work)
frenzy_0=(Same here)
. . .
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 12, 2014, 09:06:39 pm
Traditional Lemmix doesn't support gimmicks and frenzies, so that's not an issue there (Lemmings Plus II and the LPII Bonus Pack do, but that's kind of a special case; their players could probably be considered "pre-NeoLemmix", in that their code is what eventually became NeoLemmix). In NeoLemmix, the setting for them is in the level itself, no need to set it in any INI. (Though more recent versions of NeoLemmix (from V1.08n onwards) also have an option in the settings INI to set a "forced gimmick", that overrides what levels (including levels that don't have a gimmick) set - this can be quite fun to mess around with on existing levels, the backwards walkers gimmick is especially fun on a lot of levels.)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 12, 2014, 11:39:09 pm
I don't think this should turn into a section of the topic for this, so here's some new on the new Oh No More cLemmings:
The Tame rating will soon be finished! After I make this level, I only have to make twelve more levels (sorry, but I really haven't had much time today), seven of which will be tutorial levels (the tutorial levels will have the same task pairings as the original Lemmings tutorial levels). Once I finish the Tame levels, I will release the prerelease on the topic post.


I wasn't thinking. Of course Traditional Lemmix doesn't support gimmicks or frenzies.  :XD:

I was only thinking of setting an ini file for the Traditional Lemmix, by the way
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 13, 2014, 02:47:57 am
Oh No! More cLemmings is finally (pre)released! Check the topic post for download!

Oh No! More cLemmings WILL NOT include a levellist, as my methods for creating Oh No! More cLemmings was different.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 15, 2014, 08:53:42 pm
I haven't properly played any of it yet, but I did have a quick look at some of the Tame and Crazy levels, and it looks like you've really paid attention to the feedback. I look forward to playing these levels, I'll probably start a bit later on today. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 15, 2014, 09:08:14 pm
Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:
I did pay attention to the feedback (but you will see the occasional "builder-heavy" level, though, if I recall correctly, none of the later levels in Havoc are builder heavy).

Also, Oh No! More cLemmings is now officially released!
The topic post will now include ONMcL version 1.0, but look onward for the (if there will be) newer versions.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 15, 2014, 09:23:57 pm
Yep, I noticed there's some that appear that way - but there's nothing wrong with them here and there, it's only when they're overused. There are even some great levels out there that rely solely on builders - one good example that comes to mind is the second level in Akseli's pack.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 15, 2014, 09:26:02 pm
Alright. Well, I found another glitch, and I'm going to post it in the glitches thread.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 15, 2014, 11:50:03 pm
Played through Tame. Most of these levels are quite simple (though with nice designs) so not much to say, though a few I will mention something on:

Tame 12: My first thought was to go under the water (I tend to think like that xD). I'm not sure how I feel about the water extending all the way across. xD In a higher rank, I'd think that was a great evil twist, but it seems a bit excessive for Tame. Perhaps make it visible for as far as it extends (since going under is prevented either way)?
Tame 13: I really like this level. It's still easy, but does require a bit of thinking beyond the normal.
Tame 14: This one feels quite similar to Tame 12 at first glance, although it plays fairly differently.
Tame 17: Here's an example of a builder level that's still pretty good. Firstly, because there aren't so many builder levels, it doesn't get annoying so much when one does show up. Secondly, it retains some interesting twists - for example, you can't bomb a blocker on the bottom as the lemmings will fall out the bottom of the level, so you have to work around that somehow. The obvious solution is to just not block off the crowd, but then you need to take extra care to avoid too many lemmings splatting. This is an example of builder-heavy levels done right.
Tame 18: I assume you have noticed that the exit doesn't work without an extra builder by it? Also - perhaps it wouldn't hurt to move this level so that it isn't right next to Tame 17, since both are fairly buildery levels?
Tame 19: This is a fairly good level too. Here's a small challenge - beat the level, saving 100%, using only 3 of the same skill (as in, pick one skill and use it up to 3 times, not use each skill up to 3 times). This isn't very hard, but it's not immediately obvious.
Tame 20: It's a good level functionally, but visually it's quite boring. Some extra decorative terrain would probably go quite nicely on this one.

I made replays if you want them, though for Tame I don't think they'll be that interesting. If you want them now let me know, otherwise I'll just include them when I've done further.

Anyway, my first impression was right - these levels are (at least so far) a HUGE improvement over the original cLemmings! Well done! :)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 16, 2014, 12:53:32 am

Crazy 2: Some of the traps aren't visible until it's too late. Though I guess that's not so bad since the level doesn't require 100% or anything.
Crazy 3: Nice level - it's a similar concept (though much easier, if you don't take backroutes in my level into account) to Death Row from LPDOS. Though the save requirement is very low...
Crazy 8: This level is very easy compared to the ones around it (though not a bad level), even if you aim for 100%.
Crazy 9: Uh... any reason this level doesn't have a name? :P Very good level though with many different solutions, none of which are too easy.
Crazy 10: I'm not sure if this level might be a bit hard for its position; but it's a pretty neat level.
Crazy 12: Hm... are you sure this one is actually possible? With the positions of the icethrowers and terrain, it seems like there's no way to get across to the right side of the level without any floaters... there could just be something I'm missing, though.
Crazy 13: Nice level, though a bit on the easy side.
Crazy 14: I'm almost certain the solution I found is a backroute. (Check the replays)
Crazy 16: This is a pretty cool level, though a tad easy. Suggestion: Reduce builders to 5, increase requirement to 98% or even 100%. (It can be 98%'d - not sure about 100% - with even less than 5, but we don't want to make it TOO hard since it's still only the second rank.)
Crazy 17: Possibly my favorite level so far. This one's really good.
Crazy 18: This one is also very neat.

In general, I'm noticing that you're coming up with levels that use different methods of crowd control rather than always blockers, as well as some levels which don't involve crowd control or where the level's design already takes care of that. This is really good, it adds a lot more variety to the levels. :) I was correct in my observation that you have a lot of potential, it seems. :P

Attached my solutions for all of Tame and Crazy (except Crazy 12, which as I said, I can't see any way to solve).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 16, 2014, 03:36:44 am
My reply:

Tame 12: The water doesn't extend all the way across. It's just that the water goes right up to the edge of the snow clump, and then stops.
Tame 18: I didn't know about that (it's hard to judge the exit trigger area on the snow, and I didn't want to waste my time testing it because I needed to finish the game).
Crazy 2: I think some of the traps are semi-visible (by one pixel, but it looks like those little green dots in the rock cracks).
Crazy 3: The save requirement is low because of the intended solution. You probably found a backroute. I won't change it because I don't want this to be exactly difficulty-jumping as Oh No More Lemmings was, where one level you can lose half of them and the next you can only lose one (as in the case of Tame 20 to Crazy 1). Though the difficulty will rise to Oh No More Lemmings difficulty and even exceed it (you'll find this most noticeable in the Wicked and Havoc ratings).
Crazy 9: I'll make that a feature (just like some of the levels have an intentional release rate of zero, which is meant to put people off).
Crazy 12: I'm not actually sure this one is possible (I didn't bother testing it). I'll remove the icepuffers in the next update, but for now, just skip it (if you don't know how to use cheatcodes, go into the code entering screen, and enter "difficultyxx". For example, enter Crazy13, and that will take you to Crazy 13. I'm not going to fix it straight away because I'm taking a break from building/editing levels). Sorry.
Crazy 14: The backroute is obviously harder than the actual solution (to figure out, but you found it because you're used to finding the hard way of doing something), which is going around, so I won't fix it.
Crazy 16: Your solution is a backroute, but, like the previous, it's harder than the intended solution.
Crazy 17: I should've not built this for Oh No More cLemmings. I should've saved it for Holiday cLemmings. I notice it (and always have noticed it)hard to make puzzle levels out of snow. You'll see a couple here and there, but not often. One to note, though:
Quote from: Spoiler
Havoc 18
Crazy 18: Thank you. I try to make my levels be at least "neat".

I look forward to more feedback.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 16, 2014, 06:37:16 am
I'll play more a bit later - but anyway, re: Crazy 12, rather than removing the throwers, I'd suggest adding a couple of floaters and putting it in one of the higher ranks.

I agree about finding the snow level hard to make challenging levels in - I do have a couple of examples of them (PSYCHO 8 and PSYCHO 18 from LPDOS; though the former is more a case of the intended solution being deceptively hidden; the latter is a genuinely hard level) but in general, the rough-edged sets I find a bit tricky.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 16, 2014, 01:56:44 pm

Wild 7: This was a pretty cool level! :) I like how it's based on the placement of the bombers, not timing them (due to having blockers). Challenge: Try to save 91%. (I don't think 92% is possible.)
Wild 8: This is a really good level! :)
Wild 9: I'm going to take a guess and say this is another one that you didn't test? Despite that, it IS possible (and even 100%able), but relies on steel destruction, albeit due to what appears to be badly-placed steel areas rather than outright glitches.
Wild 10: I thought this was a real good level until bam, hidden trap at the end. :/ Although hidden traps are not nearly as annoying as some of the things in the first pack (and once again, at least it's in a level that has room to lose a few lemmings), they are starting to feel a bit overused by this point.
Wild 11: This level is really good! :D
Wild 12: This one too. :)
Wild 13: Three in a row! :D
Wild 14: The steel areas in this one seem to be set very poorly (see attached image for something that should NOT be happening - the miner stopped there because of hitting steel). I remember you claiming you're "really good at placing steel areas" and "better than DMA are at it"; this level very strongly suggests otherwise (so does Wild 9 for that matter, though not as badly). However, steel area issues aside, this is another pretty good level.
Wild 16: I'm guessing this is another one you didn't test based on the exit not working properly (need to build a step under it). However, I also have to ask why so many builders, since (including the one to make a step up to the exit) you only need 3... (maybe even 2)
Wild 17: This one is pretty neat! :)
Wild 19: This one is REALLY good!

These, again, are mostly very good levels. However - I'll stress the need to test them before release! A tight schedule is no excuse - take a look at Lemmings Plus II, it was made in just approximately three weeks, despite having a comparable number of levels to ONMcL (LPII has 105) and custom graphic sets. Despite this, every level was also tested*. Besides, this isn't a professional project where you have a release date to stick to - if you need extra time to test it, then take an extra day before releasing it. Besides avoiding impossible or glitchy levels, another good reason to test them is so that you have replays handy if you want/need to show anyone how to solve a specific level.

* Actually, I will confess there's one LPII level that wasn't tested, but it's one where there is absolutely zero doubt that it's possible - Cunning 21. (The level in question consists of nothing but assigning floaters quickly - the difficulty in it comes from the fact that you can't pause, and both the release rate and save requirement are very high.) However, I did test the level before anyone actually discovered it exists, at least (in LPII, level 21 of each rank is a secret level; you can't access it simply by beating level 20, but have to find a hidden "portal" to it). xD
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 16, 2014, 05:27:37 pm
Wild 7: Thanks. The level had an earlier version which was to be placed in Havoc which only gave you 15 bombers (and looked different and was different).
Wild 9: I actually did test this level. Not badly placed steel areas, but glitches (check it in the editor).
Wild 10: Yes, the hidden traps are a bit overused in the Wild rating, but the level would be a Crazy level without the tricky trigger areas of the traps.
Wild 11: Thank you. It's hard to make bubble levels that aren't long builder, basher, miner, digger levels.
Wild 12: Thanks again. This level is one of my personal favorites.
Wild 13: You seem to like the somewhat-short-and-simple-with-a-little-bit-of-every-task style (as in the end of Taxing, which you really liked).
Wild 14: The if you check in the editor, you'll see that the left steel piece is not big enough to cover all three steel plates, so I used the center piece to cover the rest. It isn't "poorly placed".
Wild 16: That time it was fully intentional (that isn't an excuse; it seriously was intentional). The builders are for the intentional solution (go around up through the big space). The route you took is an intentional backroute, which I noticed while testing the level.
Wild 17: This one was meant to be a small puzzle, yet not one that is too hard to figure out.
Wild 19: This one I'm particularly proud of.

You'll have a lot of fun with the Wicked rating. That's when it'll catch up with Oh No More Lemmings.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 16, 2014, 11:12:35 pm
Judging from the demo levels, it does look like Wicked is going to get very interesting. I'll probably play it at some point today; though I really need to get to making more levels for LPIII too. :P
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 04:49:33 am

Wicked 2 - I managed to solve it now! :D
Wicked 5 - I think I might've backrouted this one, as I only used one bomber (to blow up the crowd control blocker) and saved 98%. :P
Wicked 7 - Sorry to say, but this level was nothing short of annoying as hell. Invisible traps galore (including one BEHIND THE EXIT), in a level that only allows you to lose one lemming (and good luck getting a second worker out if you lose your first one), and trying to avoid them in a crowded area with that kind of overhead terrain... and water hidden completely behind terrain in case you do the logical thing and go under them? If you want to avoid people going under, either put *visible* water, or steel, or something like that... this is, sorry to say, a really bad level.
Wicked 8 - This one is pretty good, though. :)
Wicked 9 - So, either part of the water is fake and has hidden terrain behind it, or there's an invisible exit floating somewhere in the air, or there's an exit hidden somewhere in the terrain the lemmings start on that I'm meant to find and get to with only 9 timed bombers to destroy terrain. Or, a level that's impossible, and so obviously so that even lack of testing is not an excuse for not realising it; as three builders will very clearly not make it across that gap, even without taking into account how to trap and then release the crowd (which is possible, but would rely on VERY precise timed bombers). I'm not going to even try to guess which, let alone solve it - this is an awful level.
Wicked 10 - This one wasn't so bad, a bit on the easy side for Wicked though.
Wicked 11 - Another awful one. If you're going to make levels with hidden objects like this, you need to either give strong hints as to what's where, or give plenty of skills to spare and (if it's traps) lemmings to lose. At least this one gives bashers and diggers, though, rather than just timed bombers - so I did solve this one.
Wicked 12 - The time limit doesn't really add any challenge to the level, it's just a nuisance. Apart from that, this is a good level.
Wicked 13 - This is pretty good. It's a bit on the easy side though; if you increased the requirement to 100%, it'd be good for its position.
Wicked 14 - Not a bad level. Though I'm not sure if you realised that what I did is an option... I know I've overlooked it in some of my levels, even though other levels I've made specifically rely on it. :P
Wicked 15 - I'm pretty sure I backroute'd this one. :P If what I found is the intended solution, it's quite well hidden, though.
Wicked 16 - Very nice level! :D
Wicked 17 - This is also really good.
Wicked 18 - Another hidden trap, and another buried-but-doesn't-look-like-it's-buried exit... apart from these two things, this is a fairly good level, though. But yeah - there is literally no reason why this trap needs to be hidden; in fact it feels like that terrain was placed there solely for the purpose of hiding the trap. Likewise, if you're going to bury the exit (which in some cases has its uses, though in this one I'd say it doesn't really add anything to the level), make it very clear that it's buried - the entire doorway should be covered, or at least part way up it; the exit shouldn't look like it isn't buried.
Wicked 19 - This level is AWESOME! :D
Wicked 20 - Yet another level with loads of hidden traps (no, they don't count as "visible" if they blend in so well with the terrain that it's still impossible to tell they're there until one gets you). I got down to the ground, but after realising there wasn't just one, but many hidden traps there, I didn't bother to completely solve this level - sorry, but the hidden traps are getting to the point that they're the ONMcL equivalent of build-build-build levels in the first pack; and once again, it's in a level where you don't have many lemmings or skills to spare.

Replays attached for all except 9 and 20; those two are missing for the reasons mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong - there's a LOT of good levels here, and definitely much improved over the first pack, but you really need to cut down on the traps, or at least make it clearer where they are (since there's definitely nothing wrong with traps in themself; it's the way they're used that's an annoyance here). And I'll definitely say, you've done a great job of having more variety than every level being a builder-heavy worker lemming level, so well done on that! :) I'm also not saying hidden traps are something you should *never* do - I have a few levels that use them too! (in some cases, looking back, they're used quite poorly and I probably should slap myself for using them in those ways; other ones aren't too bad) - but excessive use of them, or using them in cases where there aren't plenty of lemmings (and if nessecary, skills) to spare, is annoying; and putting them near the ends of levels probably isn't the best design decision either.

But yeah, as I said - I can definitely see, even between these two packs, some HUGE improvements in your level designs; so definitely don't give up on it, we need more good level designers! Perhaps, I'm not sure if this is the case but just on the offchance - if you have a design that didn't turn out so great, realise that sometimes you simply have to discard the level in question and make another one to take its place. In small level packs (the 10-level ones that most people tend to make) you'll probably have to get rid of the level altogether; but in large packs like this one you can often, maybe with some modification, use it as one of the lower-rank X-of-everything levels. (One example of such - although it's still relatively late in the pack - is Danger 24 from LPDOS; this was originally a PSYCHO level, but got demoted to a filler in an earlier position, in this case due to simply having far too many backroutes that couldn't be fixed very neatly. Though ironically, the new level that took its place became the most backroute-plagued level in LPDOS anyway; so I guess PSYCHO 23 must just be a cursed slot. xD)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 17, 2014, 03:50:39 pm
Wicked 2: Pretty ingenious, huh?
Wicked 5: That is a backroute. Will have to be fixed in the next update.
Wicked 7: Sorry. I knew that level was going to be hated. I think Havoc will please you more.
Wicked 8: Your solution is a backroute, and will be fixed by putting a long gap between the bottom of the level and the bricks.
Wicked 9: Don't give up on a level just because you don't like. It's obviously impossible to go to the visible exit (yes, it was tested). Cheating a level just because you don't like it doesn't work. Come on, THIS. IS. WICKED. Right?
Quote from: Spoiler
The exit is buried at the edge of the screen. Start bombing at the spot in the picture, going forward by two or three pixels for the next bombing.
Wicked 10: I don't think this is that easy. It's meant to be somewhat of a break.
Wicked 11: I'm glad you did. I said the levels are going to catch up to ONML, and being tedious means being difficult (that isn't my excuse for the level, just a generality).
Wicked 12: Thanks.
Wicked 13: I've been noticing that my Wicked levels are in mixed difficulty. Nice solution. Will definitely make that the intended solution (with the respective skills, in the next update. Just so you know, I'm going to update it when you're done playing through the whole thing).
Wicked 14: That's exactly the solution.
Wicked 15: That isn't the intended solution, but it works. I'll look into that in the update (probably remove the bomber and floater and add a digger).
Wicked 16: That isn't the intended solution (I'm not going to say "but it works"). It's strange how it use the same amount of skills as the actual solution, which requires some tricky mining. I'm going to make this the intended solution, and that another solution.
Wicked 17: Thank you.
Wicked 18: In my opinion, if you can't see the staircase, it's buried. You can't see the staircase here, clearly. I'll remove a lot of the Wicked set's hidden traps.
Wicked 19: That's a backroute. But, it is as hard as the intended solution, and . . . (look in spoiler). I'll attach the replay of the intended solution.
Quote from: Spoiler
It uses a trick that is used in the solution of one of my Havoc levels.
Wicked 20: I'll give you a hint (wow, I actually have to give you a hint!). I have to say what I had to have said for Wicked 9.
Quote from: Spoiler
Do what you've been trying to do to pass the traps.

Don't give up on levels just because they're "awful" or "really bad". The point of Lemmings is to solve all the levels, not solve the ones you like and skip the ones you don't.

Apart from that, thanks for the critique. I hope the Havoc rating will cheer you up. There are some levels in there you're going to hate.
Quote from: Spoiler
Bomber timing in some. Very precise bomber timing. Pixel perfect bomber timing. Literally.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 06:00:44 pm
With Wicked 9 type levels, you need to take into account that you know where the exit is. Other players don't, and since there's nothing to really indicate it (the small ditch makes a good reference point once you already know about it, but is useless to those who don't), that leaves the player left with having to guess. That's where it differs from Wicked 11; which still wasn't a great level, but at least you can for the most part quickly check large areas, then once you've mapped it out, work out an actual solution. I get what you say about the "solve every level" thing - this is something I actually enforce at first with my packs by not revealing the cheat code (I change it from "CHEATCODES" to something else in every pack) and removing the setting from the INI (while still allowing it to work if the code is entered), though I do release the code after a while. But on the other hand, a level like this is something that would probably end up taking more time than the entire rest of the rank combined just trying to locate where the exit is - again keeping in mind that, without knowing what only *you* know about the level, I have no way of actually knowing it's a buried exit in the terrain, rather than an invisible one in midair, or an approach that involves going "under" the water possibly via a fake piece of it.

Wicked 20 again, it's not that I couldn't work it out, but that I couldn't be bothered trying after getting frustrated with the traps. I think something to consider here is - is there ANY reason why you couldn't keep them in the exact same places, but make them more visible? (Either move the terrain down a few pixels or the traps up a few). I do get the feeling this may actually be a good level, but the hidden traps (and again, this is not the effect of a one-off thing, but the effect of hidden traps repeatedly appearing on a regular basis) made this level annoying to the point I didn't want to play it. I will probably come back to this one before I start Havoc, though.

And no, tedious and difficult are not the same thing. A level can be tedious without being very difficult (for example, Mayhem 30 from the original game); a level can be difficult without being tedious (for example, Mayhem 3). However, at the same time; long and tedious are also not the same thing (We All Fall Down is tedious but not really long... for a level that's long but not tedious, Mayhem 9 comes to mind).

Pixel-precise bombing can be an annoyance, though Lemmix does reduce the degree of annoyingness of it. It ultimately will come down to how it's used - are the levels fairly well-desgined levels that happen to require some very precise timed bombers in their solution (along the lines of Mayhem 19), or are they levels that derive their difficulty solely from having to time bombers and would be overly easy with instant bombers (along the lines of Havoc 20)? If it's the former, it's not nearly as bad. But we'll see when I actually play them - even if there's some bad levels among them, judging by the first four ranks I'm expecting to see a lot of very good ones too.

The problem with that definition of a buried exit, especially when using traditional DOS mechanics rather than NeoLemmix or Lemmini, is that the trigger areas won't always agree with that; nor is it always overly noticable (and this latter one applies even on the newer engines). That's why I suggest making it *very* obvious. As for removing the traps - some of them do actually have a purpose; perhaps rather than removing them, just make it clearer that they're there. If the player can see them, they can plan their entire strategy for the level taking them into account, and at that point, if the level is difficult, it's no longer because BAM! surprise trap, but rather, because "here's a trap I can clearly tell exists, and I need to think of a way to get around it".
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 07:51:54 pm
Havoc 1 to 8:

Havoc 2 - This level is actually a lot better than it looks to be at first glance. However - with the low save requirement, you can completely ignore the lower-left entrance and still pass the level. I don't know if this was intentional or not. (Increasing it to 75% would ensure you have to save lemmings from all entrances, due to it being impossible to save *every* lemming from the top-right one)
Havoc 3 - Hm, I wonder if you expected the route I used. On one hand, the detail paid to the lower part would suggest no, but on the other hand, the little ledge by the exit would suggest yes. Oh well, watch the replay and you can decide for yourself. :P
Havoc 4 - This level is either FAR too easy for its position (keep in mind that SuperLemming doesn't really count for much in Lemmix, where you can assign skills while paused; unless of course you combine it with Frenzy, which would require NeoLemmix), or has a MAJOR and very obvious backroute. I'm going to guess the latter, given the setup and skillset of the level.
Havoc 5 - I think I might've backrouted this one too. Nice level either way.
Havoc 6 - A hidden trap in a 100% level...? But aside from the trap - which admittedly an average solution might not even encounter - this is a good level. :)
Havoc 7 - This is a really good level! :D This one actually had me stuck for a while.
Havoc 8 - Are you sure this level is possible? If it actually is (and assuming it doesn't just rely on obscure glitches or a hidden exit somewhere - I did look for one buried in terrain, I didn't bother to look for invisible mid-air ones), this is a really hard level. o_O Also, I noticed yet another hidden trap (in another 100% level), one which would appear to not serve any purpose though it's hard to say until I've found the actual solution. If it actually is just a really hard level - I have to say I notice an interesting coincidence, in that LPII also has a disproportionately hard level as level 8 of the 5th rank. :P

Since you don't seem to like me skipping levels, and since I don't know for sure that this is an impossible or unfair level (as opposed to just a really really hard one), I'll wait for your response before I skip to the next one.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: Simon on July 17, 2014, 09:52:47 pm
I've started playing the ONML pack in Lix. (Nonstandard physics, some levels won't be solvable there; steel areas are ignored, visible pixels of steel terrain blocks become steel instead. All levels are selectable at all times.)

The genuine puzzles are great, with refreshing ideas. Your level designes are kept condensed to bring out the core puzzle idea in full. Very nice work!

Eventually, I got thrown off by the hidden exits and traps. This feels like a huge issue to me, completely distracting from the puzzles. I've begun checking most of your levels in the editor before playing, as I won't trust their normal appearances anymore. (The Lix editor counts exits and highlights all trigger areas.) If you are afraid of lowering the difficulty by showing all special objects, rest assured that the puzzle difficulty remains the same, only the frustration will be lowered.

namida's steel area issue in "Written in Pascal" under the grinder wheel has no effect in Lix. Nonetheless, if you would like the steel area to extend this far, I recommend putting a steel terrain block there, to not confuse the Lemmix users.

Some levels feature time limits that do not prevent backroutes, but punish forgetting RR-setting. I recommend to scrap these time limits; if that is not possible in the game, raise them to the maximum amount. Whenever a time limit doesn't prevent backroutes, it lowers the playing experience. See details in the thread "Time Limits".

-- Simon
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 10:29:07 pm
^ Thanks. It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks those things; I would feel bad if I was making such a big deal out of something that no one else really minded.

Whenever a time limit doesn't prevent backroutes, it lowers the playing experience. See details in the thread "Time Limits".

I would also add to that; in some cases, there are levels that directly derive their difficulty from the time limits. In these cases though, the time limit should be the main part of the challenge, not an extra thing tagged on where it doesn't serve much purpose. In other cases, it can also be useful to require the player to use an active approach rather than taking their time; this is especially prominent in some multitasking levels. I wouldn't say time limits are inherently bad; but rather, they are a feature that's very easy to use in bad ways.

To use a few of my levels as example, PSYCHO 20 "No Time To Die" is a level that specifically derives its difficulty from the time limit - in the absence of one, it would be quite an easy level, but the challenge comes from having to navigate around the time limit. Although it's a difficult position there, because 2 minutes is very tight even with the best of solutions, but 3 minutes is far too lenient - obviously that wouldn't be a problem in NeoLemmix (although I didn't modify it in the NeoLemmix version due to 2 minute time limits now being a staple of No Time To Die levels), but NeoLemmix didn't exist back when I made this level. Nonetheless, despite (or possibly even because of) the time limit, it appears to be one of the most liked levels in LPDOS, and it's certianly one of my favorites.

On the other hand, Medi 16 "The Oddstack" is a level where the time limit doesn't really provide anything apart from frustration - and indeed, why I increased it in the NeoLemmix version.

Genius 6 "Treetop Trial" is a level where the time limit isn't going to impact a decent solution, but it will bite you in the ass if you're taking your time too much.

PSYCHO 2 "The Parking Lot" is a level where the time limit is the *ONLY* point of difficulty, to the point where the entire challenge of the level is derived from fine-tuning the otherwise-obvious solution to stick within the time limit. This is the kind of level that, in hindsight, was a poor decision to make.

In general with LPIII, while many levels have semi-tight time limits, I'm aiming for giving at least 20 seconds or so to spare, unless the level either works out in such a way that the time limit won't become an issue anyway (for example, there's a level in Rough with a time limit as low as 40 seconds; but it also requires 100%, and with any approach I'm aware of, if you run out of time with a given solution, that same solution would not be able to save 100% anyway even with infinite time), or the time limit is in itself part of the challenge of the level (an example would be the Dodgy level "Dreamy Drift" featured in the first demo).

I'd also say that maximum is not always the best idea - a small level with a 9 minute time limit feels weird, not to mention it may lead people to think their solution is a backroute if they solve it in a minute and a half, for example. Rather; the limit should be set to allow a decent margin of room for error - for example, if the level takes just under 2 minutes on average to complete, set the time limit to at least 2:30 (or 3 minutes in this case, since traditional Lemmix doesn't support setting them to-the-second, you can only set whole minutes).

Anyway, exit, I'll wait for your response before continuing Havoc or trying again on that level, but I'll have another go at Wicked 20 now. Will post the replay if/when I find a solution, assuming I don't get too annoyed at it again. EDIT: Done. Replay attached. If my solution was the intended one, then that'd actually be a very good level if the traps were made visible, so it's a shame that they bring it down (and AGAIN, a trap hidden behind the exit?!).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: ccexplore on July 17, 2014, 10:49:15 pm
As a reference point related to hidden traps, and to satisfy my curiosity, I decided to see how many levels in the original ONML have hidden or otherwise well-disguised traps.  Here's the list (note: did not bother with Tame as presumably there are none of relevance there):

Crazy 15 (Worra load of old blocks!): a few near start (hidden)
Wild 14 (ICE SPY): 1 start (disguised), 1 end (disguised)
Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): 1 middle (disguised/practically hidden)
Wicked 19 (Up, DOwn or Round and Round): 1 end, a few in middle outside of path of solution (all hidden)
Havoc 1 (Tubular Lemmings): 1 end (hidden)
Havoc 17 (Where Lemmings Dare): a whole bunch near the exit (disguised/practically hidden)
Havoc 19 (Looks a Bit Nippy Out There): 2 start (hidden)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 10:51:06 pm
As a reference point related to hidden traps, and to satisfy my curiosity, I decided to see how many levels in the original ONML have hidden or otherwise well-disguised traps.  Here's the list (note: did not bother with Tame as presumably there are none of relevance there):

Tame does not have any traps full stop IIRC (unless you count water).

On the subject of Havoc 8, I examined it in a level editor to see if there was anything hidden (or a gap in the steel, not that that wouldn't be EXTREMELY unfair), and there isn't (apart from the trap that I'm already aware of; but I was looking for a hidden exit). Given the layout of the steel and the width of the gap with the "water" (if you can call it that in this graphic set xD), there is quite clearly no way to solve this level that doesn't rely on glitches - if it had more builders and didn't require 100%, it would be possible, but neither is the case.

So yeah, this is quite clearly either a glitch-abuse level or another untested and impossible one; either way, I'm moving on to the next one.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 17, 2014, 11:57:53 pm
Some more Havoc:

Havoc 9: This level is the type that might annoy some people, though I personally don't find it too bad. I thought it was fairly good, though not one of your best.
Havoc 10: This is a very good level!
Havoc 11: I think I backrouted this one, though I don't see any other way... if this is a backroute, this is another example of you Kanye Westing about your steel area placement skills. Keep in mind that the ideal placement is *not* perfectly in line with the block itself (this is something I myself didn't realise until very recently; so even LPII often has the same problem) when using traditional Lemmix (on the other hand, in NeoLemmix, perfectly aligned with the block *is* the ideal placement, although autosteel somewhat negates the need for it anyway).
Havoc 12: Another really good level. :) Took me a while to get this one!
Havoc 13: Yet another hidden trap, and yet again, a case where terrain that serves no other purpose has been placed there seemingly for the sole purpose of hiding a trap. And yet again, this is a level where apart from hidden traps, it's a REALLY good level. Now in this case, the trap actually does add something to the level - so I'm definitely not saying remove the trap; I'm just saying remove the terrain hiding the trap.

I'll continue later.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 18, 2014, 02:15:27 am
I'll answer the posts in order.

Havoc 2: You're meant to be able to ignore the lower-left entrance.
Havoc 3: No, I didn't expect that, but the your solution uses the same trick as the intended solution. The level's difficulty comes from discovering that trick.
Havoc 4: That's a backroute.
Havoc 5: This level has many different solutions.
Havoc 8: I'll have to move the water down so that it tricks the player into thinking that it'll swallow them.

I don't really have anything to say.

The time limit wasn't for a challenge. It was meant to just be something that you have to take into account. You've seen some levels with absurd time limits (usually nine minutes). Those levels are meant to be such levels where you don't need to worry about the time.

With this post, ccexplore unintentionally showed that, at least up to now, there are exactly the same amount of ONML levels with hidden traps as ONMcL.

This level was half tested. I think I might've actually accomplished to get the lemming to stop with a pixel under the steel (I think, I'm still going to move the water down so that the trigger area isn't in the level).

Havoc 10: Thank you.
Havoc 11: That is a backroute. It will be fixed by making more steel, all the way up to the trigger area. Try and solve the level as if that were in place.
Havoc 13: That wasn't the actual solution. I'll add some icepuffers into the left wall so that you can't do that. Try and solve it this way, too. I might remove the terrain hiding the trap. Might.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 18, 2014, 02:32:06 am
If the water isn't meant to kill the lemmings, then what's the point of having it there at all?

Likewise, for Havoc 13, unless that terrain *does* form part of the intended solution, there is literally no reason to keep it there hiding the trap. If it does, then perhaps consider other ways of making the trap's presence noticable. Or, of course - just like I said about buildery levels in your first pack - if you don't have them overly frequently, it's not as much of a big deal when one does show up, and can even become an interesting occasional twist; just like how having every level being a buildery worker lemming level gets annoying, whereas if that concept is only used occasionally, especially if the levels are well designed, it can be really good - indeed, as far as buildery levels go, I think you've gotten it right with ONMcL - they're there, but they're infrequent enough that they're certianly not annoying, and most of them are quite fun levels to play. (Or if they are frequent (since I haven't really noticed an excess of them), then the ones this time are interesting enough that the player doesn't end up noticing the abundance of them. Either way is fine.)

Ultimately, it's your level pack and it's up to you how you design it - but if you keep doing annoying things like the excessive buildery levels in the first pack, or the excessive hidden traps in this one, you're going to end up putting people off wanting to play your levels - case in point, Wicked 20, how I initially decided I couldn't be bothered with it because I'd had enough of the hidden traps; when I went back to play it in the end, I thought it was actually a pretty good level (aside from the traps being hidden). It's quite possible some people might get so sick of them that they don't even *get to* that level, let alone bother to complete it.

And one other thing I'd strongly advise is (I do this myself these days), do not release your pack until you have a working replay for every level in it, even if you don't plan to ever release those replays. It's just a failproof way to ensure every level is possible. Don't just rely on "yeah, I made one a while back" - testing every replay should be the last thing you do before you upload the pack. I myself tested all my LPIII replays earlier today; and in doing so, found that one level had actually been rendered impossible by backroute fixes that I had forgotten to test after - now, if I had've released it without catching that, that would've looked really bad (especially due to what I said about blocking out cheat codes, and the fact that this level was very early in its rank).
One tip for this - since you're just making sure there's a working solution (there's no reason for you to actually watch how to complete your own level, unless you want to) - load the replay then just hold down the spacebar until you see the post-level screen. If the level is passed, you know that level is fine. If not, then watch the replay properly to see *why* it doesn't work - while it could be that a change has actually rendered the level impossible, more often it's that a change has simply broken that replay and the level is still possible (but without completing it again, you won't know for sure).
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 18, 2014, 03:06:14 am
The water is meant for killing the lemmings. The you can't dig low enough, though, to build to the steel without plugging it up because of the trigger area.

Like I said, that your solution isn't the intended solution. The intended solution is completely different, and isn't "buildery".

I understand. I wasn't meaning to be all this-is-mine-and-I'll-do-it-how-I-want-to.


I assure you, all of the next levels were tested and completed by me, so you don't have to worry about any more impossible levels.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 18, 2014, 04:06:10 am
No no, I wasn't saying it was buildery! :P Well I guess actually my solution somewhat is, but it's not in the annoying sense (compare to Taxing 14 or Mayhem 1 (of the Original lemmings, not cLemmings)).

What do you mean about Havoc 8? First you say you were going to move the trigger area outside the level (so it won't kill the lemmings), but now you're saying it is meant to kill them and meant to prevent building to the steel without plugging it? I'm confused... xD
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 18, 2014, 03:31:22 pm
I meant your solution, which if it was the intended solution, would make the level buildery.

Let me clarify. The water was supposed to kill the lemmings if you dug too far. But, you can't dig far enough down to be able to hit yourself on the steel without plugging it. I'm going to move the water because you can't do that.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 19, 2014, 10:29:50 pm
Havoc 14: I'm fairly sure this was a backroute (given that it relies on slipping past a kinda badly-placed trap), but I'm not completely sure. This level did take a while to solve, although this is mostly because of it relying on hidden details. Also, yet another hidden trap right by the exit, although by this point, I was fully expecting that to happen. Finally, the one way arrows are kind of hard to see on the icicle - although my ultimate solution ended up not really being affected by them anyway.
Havoc 15: ...more hidden traps, in yet again, a level that's otherwise really good. At least there wasn't one by the exit this time. This level was also a bit on the easy side for its position.
Havoc 16: FAR too easy for its position.
Havoc 17: Same here. This would've been a really good level for Wild or Wicked, but in late-Havoc, it's just too easy for that.
Havoc 18: Well, by now, you can guess from a mile away that the traps are there in this one, so it wasn't such a big deal. This level wasn't too bad, though again a bit on the easy side.
Havoc 19: If my solution is the intended one, that was actually quite creative. :P
Havoc 20: Also a bit on the easy side, though this was a fairly decent level.

Overall, for the pack as a whole - the first thing I'll say is that there's definitely a lot of improvement over cLemmings here. ONMcL has a lot of *annoying* levels with the hidden traps and stuff; but on the other hand, at least most of the levels aren't tedious or repetitive this time. I definitely once again will stress the need to test your levels before release. And most importantly - there are also many levels in here that are simply BRILLIANT! While ONMcL may have some new problems of its own, I can definitely see that you've taken into account the criticisms from cLemmings. Yes, ONMcL has a buildery level here and there - and you know what? It did not bother me even ONCE, precisely because they're only "here and there", not every level - in fact they often turned out to be quite fun when they showed up, this time. Take for example Havoc 1 - it's almost purely just building, but because it wasn't the Xth in a series of many buildery levels in a row (and also because it was a nicely designed level that required some thinking beyond just building to the exit), it was still a fun level.

As myself and Simon have said, the hidden traps (and hidden exits in two cases) are very annoying. Hiding critical elements of the level does not add anything to the puzzle in most cases, only to the frustration. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't be used at all, but there should either be hints as to where they are, or room for error - for example, if it's going to be in a worker lemming segment, put the hidden trap fairly close to the start of it, and in all cases, don't make it a case of "if the hidden trap gets you, you'll need to start the level again because you've lost too many lemmings already", rather make it "you can lose a lemming or two, and it'll slow you down, but you can still complete the level" - take a look at Nice 19 from LPII; it has a hidden trap near the start, but it also allows you to lose a fairly decent amount of lemmings, so it's not as much of a huge deal. Another case is Sneaky 6 (also LPII), this one has a lot of hidden traps but if you'll play it, you'll see why they work well for that level rather than being a nuisance. A couple of other levels in the same pack do have them with no real redeeming factor - but in this case, the rarity of them is what makes it not so problematic, and also in a lot of levels they're out of the way where you'll usually never encounter them - Cunning 17 has a hidden trap, most players probably never even noticed it's there, because the correct solution doesn't cross the trap's path in the first place.

Once again, a lot of the complaints I have about these levels are things I myself used to do in a lot of my levels a long time ago - so I can understand how it might seem like a challenging idea, rather than an annoying one. But you have to take into account, as I said - you know all the details of your levels, what's hidden where, etc. Other players don't. If you're going to make a level based on guesswork, there should be hints, or the levels that involve such should be very sparse, etc.

Finally, don't get the wrong idea about me having a lot of criticisms - because, as I've noted in their individual cases, there are also a LOT of excellent levels this time, and many of the ones that have some frustrating factor (such as hidden traps) are good levels that could be brought to their full potential with some minor adjustments; either removing the hidden traps, making them visible, or giving hints as to where they are. If a few are left over where none of these are an option; it probably won't be such a big deal when it's only the odd level here and there, rather than being almost a staple design of the pack.

In my opinion, it took me two large packs of somewhat cruddy levels (Cheapo LP1 and LP2) before I started to make mostly good ones, and then another two (Cheapo LP3 and JHLR) that were mostly good but still had some really poorly designed levels in there, before I really started to nail it in LPDOS. Even that had some really bad levels (Danger 9, PSYCHO 2, and a few that were replaced with better levels in the V7 update); I would say LPII is my first really high quality pack - and yeah, that was my sixth large level pack. So, don't give up - it does take a while to get there, but I can tell you're definitely an author with the potential to do it; I can definitely see in the future you and your level packs being seen in the same way that mine are currently!

When you've done the update to fix the two impossible levels and patch backroutes in others (and hopefully address some of the issues in some levels), I'll have a look at the new versions. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 19, 2014, 11:07:27 pm
Havoc 14: This is a backroute, but it uses the same characteristics as the intended solution. There's no real way to fix that, so I'll just keep it there.
Havoc 15: Never saw that option. I'll put a trap in the nook there (will be visible, somewhat) to enforce the actual solution.
Havoc 16: I can't believe I never saw that. Will definitely fix that in the new version.
Havoc 17: Yet another backroute. The actual solution is much more difficult.
Havoc 18: This is yet another backroute. I will fix that by putting a piece of steel in the iceblower (which cuts off the gap).
Havoc 19: That isn't the right solution. I will add a piece of steel jutting down to cut off the building up that way.
Havoc 20: Not the intended solution, yet again. I will fix this also.

Well, thanks for the feedback.

You'll probably be more satisfied with Holiday cLemmings. No traps. :P

I'm not getting the wrong idea about criticism. I'm simply replying.

Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 19, 2014, 11:43:24 pm
Well, that was quick. Check the topic post for the new version.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 20, 2014, 02:10:34 am
I notice you've included all LVL files rather than just those that have changed - do you by any chance have a list of the ones you've made modifications to?
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 20, 2014, 05:31:57 pm
You don't need to make it have the lvl files internally in it. It's easier for me to simply have all of them in one place (my OhNo folder), and I can access them there. Then, when I edit them, I simply compress the folder into a zip file and put it on the website/forums. You don't need to put them in the executable. All you need to put in is the custom Main file. Sorry for not telling you sooner.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on July 20, 2014, 08:40:28 pm
No, I'm asking which ones have changed so I know which ones I need to play again. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 20, 2014, 09:27:06 pm

Crazy: 12
Wild: N/A
Wicked: 5,8
Havoc: 4,8,15,16,17,18,19

There you go.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on July 27, 2014, 06:08:04 pm
Sorry for not posting that often about cLemmings news and such, but I've been devoting most of my free time to building levels for Holiday cLemmings.

More info on Holiday cLemmings:
Holiday cLemmings will include all four Holiday Lemmings difficulties, but the difficulties will rise in order (e.g. Frost, Hail, Flurry, Blitz instead of Frost/Flurry on one difficulty and Hail/Blitz on the other). Also, Holiday cLemmings will be much more difficult than Holiday Lemmings (though not necessarily harder than the other cLemmings games). If you are playing on a level that takes a lot of time, you can use the B key to skip back a frame, and hold it to skip far back (I don't get why this isn't documented anywhere). You can also use this on timed bomber levels so that you don't have to restart and remember the spot you bombed from previously. Just like ONMcL, Holiday cLemmings won't have a levellist.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on August 03, 2014, 07:53:49 pm
Well, I'm finally giving a progress report on cLemmings.

The last three ratings are complete! I only have to make sixteen more levels until I'm done.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: Minim on August 03, 2014, 08:47:10 pm
Well, I'm excited about reviewing this particular set of levels; seeing how these sets of levels compare to my level pack. Could be the new Holiday Lemmings '96 and '97 respectively, with the difficulty ratings being Slush, Ice, Chill and Freeze. ;P
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: exit on August 04, 2014, 03:47:15 am
This isn't Holiday Lemmings, it's Holiday cLemmings. That makes it '94. Nice idea, though. I'm only using one rock level, though, just like the original set. And it's in Flurry.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 09, 2014, 01:25:16 am
It's been a long time coming, and it's finally here. Holiday cLemmings 1994 is now released!

This will definitely be the most satisfying cLemmings game, with very few long levels, and many levels that will blow your mind(somewhat). Look at the topic post for download.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 03:10:07 am
I'll check these out later on. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 09, 2014, 04:00:04 am
Okay. I look forward to your feedback.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 05:11:50 am

Frost 3 - Nothing wrong with the level itself, but the title is a bit strange for a level that presents no risk of dying. :P
Frost 4 - This level very strongly resembles one of the Xmas/Holiday official levels (I'm not overly familiar with them so can't name exactly which one, but IIRC it's level 1 of something).
Frost 5 - No problems from a functional point of view, but it looks a bit bare. Maybe some extra decoration is in order?
Frost 8 - This could've had potential as a higher rank level with a more restricted set; either way though it's a neat level.
Frost 9 - Not really a fan of this one. :/
Frost 11 - This one is quite neat!
Frost 15 - This is another one that seems quite reminiscient of an official Xmas/Holiday level.

It's hard to say much as these are just the early levels, but they do seem fairly good for the most part. :)
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 09, 2014, 05:25:09 am
Quick Note: Frost was done very quickly(I made nine levels today), so it won't be the most satisfying. Hail will be much better, and Flurry is where the long levels end(no long levels in Blitz).

Frost 3: The title simply represents that you need to build past the pit, not actual death.
Frost 4: This is somewhat of a vague remake of the first level in Flurry. I was aware of the resemblance.
Frost 5: Like I said, I did nine levels today, including this one.
Frost 8: I was going with a Fun-type thing in the Frost rating, and if you recall, most of the Fun levels could have been harder with a more limiting skill set.
Frost 9: One of the rare builder-heavy levels. It goes very quickly if you use the ten second skip.
Frost 11: Thank you.
Frost 15: This one is also similar to a '94 level in Frost.

Looking forward to Hail.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 05:46:41 am
Hail 5 - I'm starting to feel like it's sliding back into the excessive amount of buildery levels by this point. :/
Hail 6 - This is a nice level! Though I feel it'd work better if the icicle was one pixel further to the right. :P
Hail 7 - See comment on Hail 5.
Hail 11 - Fun, if a bit easy.
Hail 12 - Did I backroute this, or are the builders just distractions? :P
Hail 13 - ..................................................
Hail 14 - See comment on Hail 7.
Hail 16 - This is a really neat one! :D

Replay set does not include Hail 14, I'm sure I don't need to explain why.

Got a few of the excessively buildery or otherwise seemingly pointless levels here, but for the most part, these are also pretty good. Though, a glitch level in the middle of a "normal" pack - and in a low rank at that - probably wasn't a good design choice.

As per your response for Frost 8 - yep, of course. Just pointing out that this one might've been a bit of wasted potential, that's all.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 06:16:17 am
Flurry 1 - Oh No! More Bomber Timing!
Flurry 2 - See comment on Hail 14. As far as the invisible exit go, it is hinted at, so credit to improving in *that* regard.
Flurry 3 - See comment on Flurry 2. From this point on, I'm not going to continue pointing out these excessively buildery levels; but if a replay is missing with no explanation given, you should probably assume that's why.
Flurry 4 - Apart from the obvious, buried exits are also starting to get annoying. It's fine if there's a thematic or strategic point to them, but a lot of these levels seem to be doing it just for the sake of doing so. :/
Flurry 5 - Proves my point in Flurry 4's comment; aside from that though this is actually a really good level. Though one suggestion - have the window hidden behind the terrain, the terrain being obscured by it is a bit annoying. And just wondering - is the title meant to be a South Park reference? :D
Flurry 6 - A good level, but a bit on the easy side for this point.

Flurry 7 - I can't seem to solve this one, so must be pretty good! :D I have to go out for a bit now, so I'll pick up from here later on. Attached my replays for Flurry 1, 5 and 6.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 08:57:28 am
Flurry 7 - Okay, I beat it now. That was a GREAT level! Nice and short, but still challenging.
Flurry 9 - Using block-bombers as substitutes for other destructive skills is another thing you're doing far too much. It does not add any difficulty inherently - the reason it works for Mayhem 26 is because it forces you to take the route through thinner obstacles. When just used as a general substitute, all it does is make the level tedious.
Flurry 10 - Another really good one! :)
Flurry 11 - And another! :D The bomber timing needs to be very accurate, but for this level, there's not that much that can be done about that.
Flurry 12 - Good level, but I'm not quite sure what the bashers were meant to be for?
Flurry 13 - Major backroute here... unless that's what you intended, of course.
Flurry 15 - Another excellent one!
Flurry 16 - I'm sure I played another level like this one lately... might've been in GeoffLems? Though regardless, this is a very well known trick by now and this setup has been done a hundred times (including in some of my own levels - the intended solution to PSYCHO 30 from LPDOS uses this at one point, for example). Re-using the trick isn't inherently bad if you can come up with a new way to use it (or a new combination of tricks to use it as one part of), but re-using the setup gets kind of boring.

Contrary to what you say about them being "rare", there are a lot of builder-heavy levels this time around - although definitely not as many as in the original cLemmings. Levels that are long and tedious without nessecerially being builder-heavy are also... I wouldn't say *common*, but a bit more frequent than they should be. There's a lot of buried exits that seem to be so just for the sake of it, and a lot of levels that use bombers (although at least with blockers) in place of other destructive skills which does little but make the level annoying, unless there's a reason why bombers are more effective or (as in the example I gave before of Mayhem 26) the limited range of a bomber actually forms part of the challenge.

That being said, this pack also contains some of your best levels so far, too. I notice you mention that you put together many of the Frost levels in one day - that is often a recipe for disaster. Rather than throwing together low-quality rushed levels, take a bit longer to release the pack if need be. You're not working for a professional developer, you don't have any set release date to stick to. I'm also not sure if you've done this the same way as you did with ONMcL, but also don't focus on one rank at a time - just create levels, and when you've done one, put it where it suits best. If you find a really good more-restricted solution to a level, move it into a higher rank and reduce the skillset - it's easier to create a new low-rank level than it is to create a new high-rank one.

And yes, I still have one rank to go - going to play that now.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 09:35:34 am
Blitz 1 - An EXCELLENT level!
Blitz 2 - The only real difficulty on this one comes from the time limit which is generally just frustrating; this would've made a good level (with a higher time limit) for around the end of the 2nd rank or start of the 3rd, I reckon.
Blitz 3 - Another very good level. There is one minor issue - once again, important parts of the terrain end up hidden behind the window, so you should probably set it as No Overwrite.
Blitz 4 - Yet another great one! This might actually be my favorite of this pack so far.
Blitz 5 - Another good level, though maybe a bit easy. Also, why so many builders? - it can easily be solved with only 4 (or even 3 if you added another climber).
Blitz 6 - This one... it's definitely not bad, but it isn't great to the same extent as 4 of the last 5 were. Still - as I said, it's not bad either.
Blitz 7 - Again, this one isn't quite up to the standard of the earlier ones, but is still fairly good. Quite tight on time though.
Blitz 8 - This one is fairly good too! Took me a while to work out what to actually do, I was trying a few other approaches before I noticed this one might work.

I'll do the other half soon, but I wanted to end this post and give the comments at this point because there's something I feel should be pointed out ASAP,
which is that Blitz is a HUGE step up in quality from the first three ranks (at least so far). Out of these first 8 levels, 5 are great, and 2 more are still pretty good. Only one (Blitz 2) isn't so great, but even then it isn't bad, just not up to the same standards as the others. I'm wondering, did you by any chance spend significantly more time on Blitz than you did on the other ranks, or put more effort in, or something? Because if you did, it really shows so far - Blitz is great! :D
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 09, 2014, 11:31:39 am
Blitz 9 - This level has the same problems as my own PSYCHO 2 from LPDOS, namely that you must fine-tune everything to virtually perfection in order to squeeze every leming in within the time limit, which is one reason why looking back I consider that to be one of my worst levels. :/
Blitz 10 - This is a fairly good level - though it can be solved with one less builder than given. :P
Blitz 11 - Another buried exit for no real reason, but this is a good level. :)
Blitz 12 - I SERIOUSLY hope my solution is a backroute... if not, this level belongs in the first rank, not the last...
Blitz 13 - Same here (though maybe not quite "first rank", but it's still too easy for the final one unless this is a backroute, which it probably is).
Blitz 14 - Another backroute?
Blitz 15 - Sorry, but this trick is SO well known that most players even have memorised exactly what release rate to use to do it with *just* builders (no digger). :P
Blitz 16 - This is a good level, but I don't really think it's suited to being the *final* level. Just my opinion though.

The levels that I backrouted do look like they could be very interesting if the backroutes were patched, and in general, the second half of Blitz mostly kept up the high standard of quality seen in the first half.

Overall, while the first three ranks were a bit hit-and-miss - though still had some EXCELLENT levels in there - Blitz was extremely good, quite consistently. Well done! :)
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Minim on August 09, 2014, 04:40:39 pm
Whoa. I haven't even downloaded the set yet. I was actually going to have a go at reviewing these levels let alone trying them. Namida's so quick. Maybe I'll just see how these compare to my set of levels. From my instincts and by looking at his review of levels this should be a good set.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 09, 2014, 09:57:42 pm
My replies for Hail and above:

Hail 5: As you've already noticed, the buildery levels thin out going up to Blitz and then(in my opinion) completely disappear.
Hail 12: Obviously you can't do the builder solution since you only have one minute, so the builders are just distractions for people who don't pay attention to the time.
Hail 16: Thanks.

Flurry 1: One of the two levels in this whole set with timed bombers.
Flurry 2: The showing part is meant to have you know that you don't need to build into it. I was originally making a level somewhat like this, but with the title saying "read the level" and the level saying "no entry no exit". I ended up using all 256 terrain pieces. Then I went to save it and I accidentally clicked "Close Level".
Flurry 5: This one I don't regard that buildery, because four of the builders are used to enclose the lemmings. And yes, it is a reference to South Park.
Flurry 6: I guess, but the high release rate can still make it tricky.
Flurry 7: Thank you.
Flurry 10: Thanks.
Flurry 11: Thanks again.
Flurry 12: There are multiple solutions to this level. Yours simply didn't use bashers.
Flurry 13: Not intended at all.
Flurry 15: Thanks.
Flurry 16: This level was made before GeoffLems was released. Anyways, I know that this trick is very well-known, it just makes for a somewhat tricky level because you need to strategize on where to place the blockers.

Blitz 1: I knew this level was going to be liked. Although your solution wasn't intended. I'll give you the actual solution replay.
Blitz 3: Those aren't really important. Unless if you solve it the way you did.
Blitz 4: I thought you would backroute this one, and you did. At least the solution only left two skills.
Blitz 5: Backroute, although not that much different that the intended solution.
Blitz 8: Not exactly intended, although it is as hard as the original solution(and use all of the skills so . . .).
Blitz 9: I knew this level wouldn't be liked.
Blitz 11: I buried the exit because it doesn't stand straight on the 23 piece. I don't like overhanging exits.
Blitz 12: Major backroute. I can't believe I didn't see that.
Blitz 13: Another backroute, but I can't prevent this one because it will mess with the actual solution. I'll give you the actual solution.
Blitz 14: Yes.
Blitz 15: I thought that I'd made that not possible. I'll give you the intended solution. I don't know how to prevent this backroute, so would you mind helping me?
Blitz 16: That's also a backroute. I'll attach a replay for that, too.
Title: Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
Post by: namida on August 11, 2014, 07:59:12 am
Crazy: 12
Wild: N/A
Wicked: 5,8
Havoc: 4,8,15,16,17,18,19

Okay, I finally had a go at these, sorry about the delay. :P

Crazy 12: Pretty standard worker lemming level. :P
Wicked 5: This one wasn't bad, but it's nothing special either.
Wicked 8: Now this one was really good!
Havoc 4: I think I might've found another backroute?
Havoc 8: This one took me ages to solve! This is a really good level now that it's possible! One thing though; this level is challenging enough without the time limit, there's no real advantage in having it so tight.
Havoc 15: This level is still pretty annoying, sorry to say. It would probably be not so bad under NeoLemmix due to the better steel mechanics, but still.
Havoc 16: I'm not sure what you changed here, can't remember the original too well, but this level is still pretty easy... and relying on a glitch to remove backroutes (I'm guessing that's why the one way arrows are there?) is not exactly an impressive way of dealing with it... :/
Havoc 17: This one is also still pretty easy.
Havoc 18: This one requires frustrating precision with the bomber timing - and that's if the basher position is such that it allows the bomber to even be possible. Once you get past that bit, the rest of the level is really simple.
Havoc 19: The same solution I used before works with a few slight changes.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 12, 2014, 04:08:58 pm
My replies:

Crazy 12: I don't really need to say anything here.
Wicked 5: Thanks.
Wicked 8: Not the intended solution, but there's no way around that.
Havoc 4: Definitely. Will fix that.
Havoc 8: Finally! A "hard" level on which you found the intended solution.
Havoc 15: Like Wicked 8, not the intended solution, but there's no way around that.
Havoc 16: I actually wasn't relying on a glitch to remove the backroutes. What I will do, though, is simply extend the steel all the way up and remove the arrows. Not intended at all.
Havoc 17: Backroute, will extend the steel up even further.
Havoc 18: This is the level that I was actually referring to in the spoiler from a month and a half ago.
Havoc 19: I will completely remove that solution by taking away the jutting steel and adding steel in the place where you bashed.

Well, let's go to work.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 12, 2014, 04:23:03 pm
Here's the new version.

I only changed four levels:
Havoc 4
Havoc 16
Havoc 17
Havoc 19
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 12, 2014, 10:09:10 pm
Havoc 8 is a great level then! I would suggest making the trap visible though, of course.
I'll look at the new version when I get home tonight.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 12, 2014, 10:14:45 pm
I'll make it visible when I have time to do so(right now).
I'm looking forward to your feedback.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 12, 2014, 10:26:23 pm
Here it is. This is by far the smallest update, so I'll simply include it in V1.2. Look at the V1.2 post for download.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: grams88 on August 13, 2014, 01:38:13 am
Hi guys

I'll need to get back into playing levels, wow there sure are loads of levels out there now,  :thumbsup:

Hi exit

Can you play your levels on lemmini that's the one I tend to use well it's been awhile since I last used it but there's so many new levels out there. Is it levels where you are going through the entire original and oh no more sets and making them into a harder puzzle or is it unique levels?
(Sorry I hope my question makes sense there)

Keep up the good work guys and I've enjoyed having a sneak peak at Namida's reviews.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 13, 2014, 02:43:01 am
They're entirely new levels, and they're Lemmix only. Though if you converted them yourself, most should work on Lemmini. I can think of one in Holiday cLemmings that definitely won't work on Lemmini (or for that matter, NeoLemmix); apart from that, they should.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 13, 2014, 03:10:36 am
They are completely unique levels, no levels from the original lemmings or other set.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on August 13, 2014, 12:52:39 pm
Havoc 4: Same solution still works with a slight variance.
Havoc 16: Not sure if this is the intended solution or another backroute; if it's the intended one, it's a bit on the easy side.
Havoc 17: The backroute still works.
Havoc 19: This level is pretty interesting now (well, to be fair, even with the backroute it was still a pretty good level), though the save requirement could be a bit higher, and it's another one where the time limit doesn't really serve much purpose other than being annoying. But overall, good level! I actually wonder if this is one where you should leave in both solutions though, as my one still uses a somewhat obscure trick and isn't exactly obvious (as the layout of the level clearly suggests approaching the exit from the left).
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 16, 2014, 03:05:28 am
Havoc 4: I'm simply going to give up on this one, because I forgot the actual solution. :XD:
Havoc 16: This is the intended solution(at least it's similar, as it uses the same technique).
Havoc 17: If I do anything more, it will interfere with the intended solution, so I can't do anything.
Havoc 19: That isn't the intended solution, by I'll keep both this and the intended solution, because it uses all of the skills.

Well, I think ONMcL is done for now. If anyone else wants to give their feedback they're welcome to.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on August 16, 2014, 04:08:39 pm
I'm taking a huge break from creating lemmings levels. Here are three lemmings levels I created in my spare time. The levels are in custlemm form(limited offer which has expired. If you obtained said file while it was offered, please don't make it available to other people).

Answering my post, I feel like giving my personal feedback to myself. ;P
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Proxima on September 07, 2014, 01:20:13 am
I've just started playing these levels -- so far, completed the Fun difficulty. Nice designs, appropriately easy, fun to solve. The only thing I'd say is that  Fun 26 (The Lemming Tower) has a long solution with a lot that can go wrong, and although every part of the solution is familiar and simple to veteran players, new players would find this inappropriately hard for a Fun level.

Solved Tricky 1-10. A very nice way to steadily ramp up the difficulty, with a mix of tougher "open" levels (lots of skills and various possible solution methods) and puzzles with limited skills. I originally thought "Fortissimo" was way too hard for its place -- then the completion screen came up and I realised I'd gone for the 96% solution and it only required 25%  :P  "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" had me stumped for a while -- in the end I used the bomber and miner to reach the exit and the builder to delay one lemming.

At the moment, completely stuck on Tricky 11 (Scrambled Lemmings). You can only lose 16, but it seems to take much longer than that to build a safe landing -- my best so far isn't even 50%.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on September 07, 2014, 01:23:48 pm
Every difficulty has one level that is harder than the rest. I've had to say this multiple times, but not without good reason. A Towering Problem is that level in Fun.

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly actually has two solutions. One of my "local" testers found that one.

In Scrambled Lemmings, you have to know visually what the splat height looks like. And I know that even experienced players like you can still underestimate how far lemmings can fall visually.

Thanks for playing these, it helps since namida played most of this in 1.1(you are using 1.2, right?).
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Proxima on September 07, 2014, 02:33:25 pm
Nope, still stuck. If I build from the highest point on the left crystal that avoids running into the vertical arm of the star and making an unjumpable barrier, it still isn't high enough to avoid splatting, and 24 have already died by the time the bridge gets under the exit. To get the bridge complete in two-thirds that time, I have to lay fewer bricks, which means walking up terrain to get higher, and there isn't any terrain. You'll have to give me a hint.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on September 07, 2014, 07:40:24 pm
I think that while adding aesthetics, I might've tampered with the solution. Either that or I raised the save rate to much. I'll see which one it is, and I'll fix it.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on September 07, 2014, 07:50:17 pm
The save requirement is too high, so I've lowered it.
That should help.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Proxima on September 09, 2014, 01:00:12 am
Yes, it's solvable now (I saved 45% and the new requirement is 43%). I'd suggest lowering it still further, as you want the player to have some margin for error in Tricky.

Similar remarks go for several of these levels, and (especially since I'm playing on a laptop where keyboard controls are not so easy) this is becoming a real playability issue. For example, Tricky 18. Holding the crowd with a single blocker is easy, so all the lose-1 requirement does is enforce fast pausing, which is not an interesting puzzle. And then you have to start again because of the hidden trap; if the save requirement were more lenient this would be less of an issue. (In the original Lemmings that trap only occurs in Rendezvous at the Mountain, which allows you to lose twenty.)

Tricky 13 is a good puzzle, but I think my solution is unintended. I made a blocker, sent up a climber, made him build two bricks then mine to turn around when he hits steel, then bashed to free the crowd. (I think this is unintended because exactly the same solution solves Tricky 16 and, substituting a miner for the final crowd release, Taxing 1.)

Tricky 14 is an okay "hold-the-crowd-without-blockers" level. Tricky 15 is nasty -- the fireblower is positioned so it looks like it will kill the lemmings, but it doesn't. Sure, it's easy to guess since the limited skills make the route apparent, but it's still not exactly treating the player fairly. Then Tricky 17 -- I won't complain about the traps; it's easy to guess they are there when the level would be trivial without them; but with such limited skills to get past them, this is much too hard for Tricky.

I've had a look through the rest of the set, and I have to echo namida's criticism -- too many hidden traps and levels that are just building. But not bad at all for your first levelset, so don't be disheartened   :D
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on September 09, 2014, 08:11:06 pm
Tricky isn't meant to fully imitate the original game's difficulty, so tightness, like that, increases.

Try keeping one finger on F11 always, because then you can pause quickly when needed. This, for example, really helps in "The Prison"(I forgot the number offhand), from Taxing.

The solution is simply there for people that want to do it that way. You can do it in a few different ways. Tricky 16 is when you need to do it, and Taxing one is similar, but you need to mine correctly.

That's meant to be sort of a challenge to figure out for inexperienced players. It should be obvious that they can go through, though, because there aren't any other solutions. Tricky 17 is meant to teach the player the Compression Method 1 technique, so it should be hard.

You're going to hate Oh No More cLemmings even more because of an extensive overuse on hidden traps. But Holiday cLemmings doesn't have any, obviously.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2014, 12:27:32 am
and (especially since I'm playing on a laptop where keyboard controls are not so easy)

I'm curious whether you are just talking about smaller keys than on a normal keyboard, or whether you have one of those unfortunate laptop keyboards where they default to having F1-F12 take on the Fn functions (typically things like volume up/down or wireless on/off, and on other laptop keyboards normally require holding down fn modifier key to access but not these laptops) instead of the normal F1-F12?
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Proxima on September 10, 2014, 01:00:09 am
Yeah, the F keys do things like volume up/down, so to use them for skill assignment (or pausing, in the case of F11) I have to hit the "fn" key followed by whichever F key. So I can't just "pause quickly when needed".

exit, I assure you, I don't hate your levels. I just, at the moment, being in a busy and stressful period of my life, find them a bit too frustrating to persevere with them right now. I'm sure I will enjoy them when I get back to them.

You are quite right about Tricky 17, with the "Compression Method" solution it is not too difficult. I just overlooked that   :(
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on October 11, 2014, 11:13:43 pm
I did a bit of touch-up on the website, just wanted to let you know.  ;)
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: chaos_defrost on October 12, 2014, 02:17:10 am
Easy way to deal with hidden traps, if you want to put out a revision of this set that doesn't have this problem: Put a "terrain clue" for all of the traps you have. Like, a pretty visually out-of-place terrain bit directly under the trigger to show the player there's a hidden trap there. Makes later levels a lot less frustrating once people get to know your level design style.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: Zaphod77 on October 12, 2014, 04:35:25 pm
The  ONLY hidden type of trap in the original game is the crusher trap. Easy when you know how is the introduction to the hidden trap.

I believe that if the traps are really supposed to be hidden, it's okay to make them hidden, but there should be at least SOME clue.  for example if a level is called "Watch out, there's traps about" but you don't see the traps, you can conclude they are hidden, and make educated guesses about where they probably are. And if the level seems like it's way too easy for its' position in the difficulty curve, you can reasonably expect a hidden trap, and guess their placements pretty well.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on October 12, 2014, 05:03:15 pm
Note that the masher trap isn't the only trap that was hidden in the original game; the rock trap was hidden as well.

As for giving a clue, you'll notice that I don't make as many hidden traps without trying to make that a bit visible anymore.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on October 13, 2014, 12:00:14 am
Yeah, the F keys do things like volume up/down, so to use them for skill assignment (or pausing, in the case of F11) I have to hit the "fn" key followed by whichever F key. So I can't just "pause quickly when needed".

exit, I assure you, I don't hate your levels. I just, at the moment, being in a busy and stressful period of my life, find them a bit too frustrating to persevere with them right now. I'm sure I will enjoy them when I get back to them.

You are quite right about Tricky 17, with the "Compression Method" solution it is not too difficult. I just overlooked that   :(

If you use the latest update I've made to the traditional Lemmix players (which will work fine, gameplay-wise the mechanics are identical except for proper emulation of the pause-for-time glitch instead of a rough approximation), you can now use P for pause, and Z/X for skill selection. The F keys still work too.
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: exit on November 08, 2014, 04:41:20 am
Well I've finished all of the levels for cLUE(cLemmings Ultimate Edition). I'm going to put the player together soon.
Info on cLUE:
-It comprises of 32 levels seperated into 2 difficulty ranks(the names haven't been decided yet)
-It uses all 9 of the Orig/OhNo graphic sets
-The difficulty doesn't start easily, it just sort of stays level throughout the pack
-The title is cLemmings Ultimate Edition, which means that this will be the last official cLemmings pack
-In the planning stage, cLUE was planned to be comprised of 210 levels seperated into 3 difficulty ranks, this changed about halfway through the level making process
-The musics will be all 17 of the original ones
Quote from: Spoiler

There might be a levelpack called "The best of cLemmings"(or something like that), but it will not be an "official" one, and no promises!
Title: Re: cLemmings
Post by: namida on November 08, 2014, 05:42:35 am
Overall, your packs keep getting better. I'm looking forward to it. :)