Link to the release topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5204.0
Hey there, I am currently working on the new NeoLemmix Introduction Pack which shall smoothly introduce completely new players into Lemmings and NeoLemmix.
Before making any level, I thought it would be a good idea to put a list of planned ranks (themes) with the content they shall introduce together.
So I quickly made such a list and want to ask around if there might be anything I missed. The rank names are also not final. ;)
Theme 1: Skills
- Digger
- Basher
- Miner
- Fencer
- Builder
- Platformer
- Stacker
- Walker
- Cloner
- Blocker
- Bomber
- Stoner
- Climber
- Floater
- Glider
- Swimmer
- Disarmer
- Shimmier
- Release Rate (Yes I would could this as skill related)
- Nuke (This as well)
Theme 2: Objects/Special terrain/Lemming variants --> "Interactables" maybe? (need a good name here)
- Steel
- Multiple-Hatches + Exits
- Pre-assigned Lemmings + Hatches
- Limited-count exits and entrances
- OWW (left/right)
- OWW down
- OWW up
- One-way fields
- Traps (+ single use Traps)
- Pick-up skills
- Locked Exits and Buttons
- Teleporters
- Updrafts
- Splat-pads/Anti Splat-pads
- Decorative objects
- Splitters
- Zombies
Theme 3: Functions
- Time Limits (I am unsure about putting this here)
- Vertical Scrolling
- Fast-Forward
- Directional-Select
- Priority invert
- Splat-Ruler
- Framestepping
- Clear-Physics-Mode
- Highlight Lemming
- Save-States
Theme 4: Easy skill combinations and beginner puzzles
- Athletes introduction
- Bomberless Blocker release
- Blocker substitudes (Digger holding pit, Stackers, Stoners, Stalling)
- Basic mechanics: Stepping up 6 pixels but not 7; skill-users turning on blockers; bashers ascending on a steel edge; Compression Method; interrupted basher/miner
Of course things like Fast Forward and Clear-Physics-Mode will be introduced through a little text in combination with an under normal circumstances badly designed level where the respected function will be a blessing (Example hidden traps for Clear-Physics-Mode). ;)
Alright, anything I missed or something shall be resorted? ??? Also I plan plan to create this rank by rank with releasing a public test version after a new rank is finished to get proper fedback from as many people as possible as this is something the whole forum is benefitting from.
I agree that a new introduction pack sounds like a great idea, but I think it needs some really careful thinking about structure if we're going to make it as good as it can be.
First, a few things you've missed:
* One-way fields
* Splitters
* Limited-count exits and entrances
* Splat ruler
* Should there be a "mechanics" rank, separately or combined with your rank 4? This could include things like stepping up 6 pixels but not 7; skill-users turning on blockers; bashers ascending on a steel edge; Compression Method; interrupted basher/miner... it's quite a wide field, but those are a few examples of things we take for granted that new players won't know yet.
Now let's talk about structure. Do you envisage a separate level for each skill, object and function? I'm very wary of that, since it sounds like you would have forty-two trivial levels before we even reach the "beginner puzzles". The pack needs to introduce everything clearly, for sure, but it should also be fun to play -- otherwise new players probably won't get all the way through it.
Also, you introduce fast forward in rank 3, but a majority of levels are more pleasant to play when the player knows about FF, so that they can speed through the rest of the level as soon as the route is complete. (When I was a kid, my sister and I always enjoyed watching the crowd walk to the exit and cheering them on -- but NL isn't aimed at kids.) Similar remarks apply to most control features.
I would, at the very least, drop the "control features" rank and decide where to introduce these features in the natural play of rank 1 (e.g. directional select can be introduced with one of the skills it's frequently used with, probably builders). Some levels can introduce more than one skill. At a rough guess, I would say the full introduction of all NL features could be done in around 20 levels, and would be much the better for it.
I've added the things you listed. Also I plan to introduce a few basic mechanics in rank 4 as well, like the ones you mentioned, I've added them to the list as well.
QuoteNow let's talk about structure. Do you envisage a separate level for each skill, object and function? I'm very wary of that, since it sounds like you would have forty-two trivial levels before we even reach the "beginner puzzles". The pack needs to introduce everything clearly, for sure, but it should also be fun to play -- otherwise new players probably won't get all the way through it.
You are right that this may be overkill, but I also want the introduction as easy as possible. As I result, I should start with a few seperate introductions and then move on to some double introductions (like floaters+gliders for example). This middle way should cull the level number by a bit.
QuoteAlso, you introduce fast forward in rank 3, but a majority of levels are more pleasant to play when the player knows about FF, so that they can speed through the rest of the level as soon as the route is complete. (When I was a kid, my sister and I always enjoyed watching the crowd walk to the exit and cheering them on -- but NL isn't aimed at kids.) Similar remarks apply to most control features. I would, at the very least, drop the "control features" rank and decide where to introduce these features in the natural play of rank 1 (e.g. directional select can be introduced with one of the skills it's frequently used with, probably builders). Some levels can introduce more than one skill. At a rough guess, I would say the full introduction of all NL features could be done in around 20 levels, and would be much the better for it.
I was unsure about FF. I think it should be introduced still. I planned to make the skill introduction levels not much larger than 1 screeners so that FF would not be essential. But I could at least mention FF earlier.
For the rest, I think here comes the combination idea into play again: I could drop the rank entirely and combine them with rank 4 so they give some trivial puzzels more meaning. I think it would be better if I rename rank to theme for my list and only later form rank groupings.
I am still highly in favor of keeping skills mostly seperated from other themes as the core element should be introduced as clearly as possible without distractions. Combining skill inroductions though should be alright.
If there is no further input here, I will soon start to create the first levels. :)
I'm not sure where this fits in, if anywhere, but I do think the "Wild 15 Glitch" (digger changes direction if another lemming nearby is made a blocker, even though said blocker is instantly released) needs to be introduced somehow, because the lack of initial visual feedback and its niche use make it easily overlooked by someone not in the know.
Quote from: Crane on August 13, 2019, 06:26:06 PM
I'm not sure where this fits in, if anywhere, but I do think the "Wild 15 Glitch" (digger changes direction if another lemming nearby is made a blocker, even though said blocker is instantly released) needs to be introduced somehow, because the lack of initial visual feedback and its niche use make it easily overlooked by someone not in the know.
It definitely can in the last rank where some basic level solving skills and essential tricks are introduced. I would consider the "digger-blocker combination" easy enough to understand for new players and of essential level solving knowledge, as it is used quite regulary.
In general, with tricks there is a line to draw here. An introduction pack should, out of the near endless ammount of tricks, only introduce easy ones that are of essential level solving knowledge (like digger holding pits for example).
I guess a good test for whether or not to include a trick, would be either (a) it's used in what appears to be an intended solution in an official level, or (b) it's used very commonly in custom content. (For example, using constructive skills to add terrain that keeps a destructive skill going - as far as I recall this is never used in any official level, but it's a very common custom level trick, so I'd say it should be in there.)
Perhaps A should be amended to "unless it only occurs in a single level and the trick is the entire level", such as the "I Am AT" trick (although perhaps that one's been done to death enough in custom levels that it qualifies under B anyway... :P ).
Generally the Wild 15 Glitch doesn't appear too often in my experience, so it's something that catches people by surprise. The other reason is because I still want to see if a level can guide a player towards the trick so they can complete it without having to jump through so many logical hoops or be explicitly told it... my criteria for embracing that trick/glitch.
Another 'trick' level... building a step on a steel plate and mining to turn around. Very common trick. Though not really intended on any official level, it can be used to solve "Fall and no life (part two)" (the original 2-miner version) by letting the pathfinder float towards the exit, then using the two tools to turn around on the steel walkway, instead of building across to the water pit first.
EDIT: Actually, never mind... there's another solution that uses the trick and only uses one miner overall (replay created from Lunatic 32 of Lemmings Redux).
I've finished the skill introduction rank and added a download link of the first beta version of the pack to the main post. :)
I am especially unsure about the pre-level texts. If you find any spelling errors, point them out to me.
I appreciate all kinds of feedback! :)
Great job, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I really like the skill-pair combinations you went with - they all seem like each other's logical counterparts (blockers and bombers; climbers and shimmiers; floaters and gliders; builders and platformers; miners and fencers; walkers and cloners, etc.)
Also, they look really pretty! I'm happy you've put so much work into "stylizing" even these easier levels, because that makes them feel like actual, original DMA Lemmings level to me.
Two levels (2 and 11) I can't play though, because of a missing "flame_deco" piece in the Marble tileset?I'm pretty sure I just recently updated my style folder with the newest release. ???
Some remarks:
Spoiler
- Since you put stoners and stackers into one level, I'd really find it helpful if you could somehow enforce or at least mention the trick that a stacker can be used to get over a stoner by closing the gap at its feet (in fact, I also have a "stacks and stones" level that uses precisely that trick! ;) ). Usually people only perceive both stackers and stoners as blocker-surrogates, especially when they're introduced together and when it comes to getting over them, they will therefore resort to building or platforming from a ramp. The stacker-stoner trick effectively makes use of the six-pixel-jump, because the stoner's shoulder height is six pixels. If you think this is too much for this first level on the two skills, which I'd totally understand, I suggest dedicating a separate level in a higher rank to this. Six-pixel jumps are also relevant to stackers in combinations with walkers, after all, when the player cancels the stacker prematurely. Since walkers don't fit into this level, I guess a separate level on six-pixel jumps, featuring stackers, stoners, and walkers might be the best option.
- In the climber-shimmier level, you call both of them permanent skills. Shimmiers aren't permanent skills, though ;) .
Thanks for the feedback.
QuoteTwo levels (2 and 11) I can't play though, because of a missing "flame_deco" piece in the Marble tileset?
Oh yes, these tiles were non-standard special tiles. I've removed them from the levels.
QuoteSpoiler
Since you put stoners and stackers into one level, I'd really find it helpful if you could somehow enforce or at least mention the trick that a stacker can be used to get over a stoner by closing the gap at its feet (in fact, I also have a "stacks and stones" level that uses precisely that trick! ;) ). Usually people only perceive both stackers and stoners as blocker-surrogates, especially when they're introduced together and when it comes to getting over them, they will therefore resort to building or platforming from a ramp. The stacker-stoner trick effectively makes use of the six-pixel-jump, because the stoner's shoulder height is six pixels. If you think this is too much for this first level on the two skills, which I'd totally understand, I suggest dedicating a separate level in a higher rank to this. Six-pixel jumps are also relevant to stackers in combinations with walkers, after all, when the player cancels the stacker prematurely. Since walkers don't fit into this level, I guess a separate level on six-pixel jumps, featuring stackers, stoners, and walkers might be the best option.
That is more advanced stuff that would go into the last rank where I go into some basic tricks. In this rank only the basics are taught.
QuoteIn the climber-shimmier level, you call both of them permanent skills. Shimmiers aren't permanent skills, though ;) .
Yeah, I screwed up there. :XD: I've corrected the text.
And with that:
V 0.02 is out!- Removed the non-standard tiles.
- Reworked the introduction text of the stoner/stacker level.
Regarding the beta,
General - some of the preview texts seem really compressed into the middle of the screen, with not much vertical spacing between paragraphs. Each line can be up to 40 characters iirc.
Climber / Shimmier level - At some point, I think this should show the "climber hits head and turns around" behaviour. I realise this technically happens when they reach the chain, but it's not very visible what's going on there.
Builder / Platformer level - "If both skills build..." in the introduction text, I think "If either skill builds..." is more natural sounding here. Very minor detail.
Those points aside, seems pretty good so far!
This is very good. The level aesthetics are excellent, the number of levels is good and the skills paired together make sense.
I noted some small issues with the intro texts as I was going along, so when I have time I'll look through them again and make a detailed post. I also think some of them (especially the first) may be too wordy and this may be a bit tricky for new players to take in all the information. It may be a good idea to think about what's really important to say and what can be left for the player to infer.
For the shorter texts, I think what you've done with splitting them up into a larger number of shorter lines is actually a good thing. The font used isn't very readable in long paragraphs, but having shorter lines helps make it a lot friendlier.
The only real playability issue I noticed is that in Level 5, you mention the 64-pixel splat height, but users won't be happy about counting pixels, so the splat ruler should really be introduced here. Indeed, it might be introduced on Level 4, since the player needs to know that the fall from the second snow platform is deadly.
Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:
V 0.03 is out!- Swapped level 4 and 5 so that the intro text for the shimmier/climber level has the introduction to splat falls.
- Reworked the shimmier/climber level so that there is a clear situation where the climber hit their heads.
- Reworded the text in the builder/platformer level.
- Reworded the text in the nuke level, so that it specifically says double-click the nuke button.
QuoteGeneral - some of the preview texts seem really compressed into the middle of the screen, with not much vertical spacing between paragraphs. Each line can be up to 40 characters iirc.
QuoteFor the shorter texts, I think what you've done with splitting them up into a larger number of shorter lines is actually a good thing. The font used isn't very readable in long paragraphs, but having shorter lines helps make it a lot friendlier.
I am with Proxima here with the fact that shorter lines are better to read. It is also very hard to word the text in the level file without instant visualisation on how it will actually look. The texts often took longer to make than the level! :P
QuoteI noted some small issues with the intro texts as I was going along, so when I have time I'll look through them again and make a detailed post. I also think some of them (especially the first) may be too wordy and this may be a bit tricky for new players to take in all the information. It may be a good idea to think about what's really important to say and what can be left for the player to infer.
I tried to be as short as possible and I think the information there is nessesary to give. If you can compress the texts more though (and test if they can indeed be displayed in NL), write them in here and I can include them. I am not a very great writer and displaying information in as little words as possible can be very tricky.
Quote, you mention the 64-pixel splat height, but users won't be happy about counting pixels, so the splat ruler should really be introduced here.
The exact splat ruler will have a dedicated level where there will be some close calls. But if you want I can now just say "they splat if they fall too high distances" and give the exact definition later in the splat ruler level. The cases here should be clear so that just a fall warning should be enough.
Looks good so far! For the most part the skill combinations make sense, but there is one that I think could use a little reconsideration: walkers and cloners, in my opinion, didn't really demonstrate the behavior of either skill very well, which could result in the player having forgotten the information about each skill presented in the text by the time a level requests them to make use of it. Show, don't tell, after all.
Behaviors of cloners not demonstrated:
- Skills (e.g. miners, builders) continue after use.
Behaviors of walkers not demonstrated:
- Cancels skill in use.
- Can be assigned to blockers.
I've attached replays.
Thanks for the replays. :)
Quote from: Dullstar on August 18, 2019, 06:51:50 PM
Looks good so far! For the most part the skill combinations make sense, but there is one that I think could use a little reconsideration: walkers and cloners, in my opinion, didn't really demonstrate the behavior of either skill very well, which could result in the player having forgotten the information about each skill presented in the text by the time a level requests them to make use of it. Show, don't tell, after all.
Behaviors of cloners not demonstrated:
- Skill continues after use.
Behaviors of walkers not demonstrated:
- Cancels skill in use.
- Can be assigned to blockers.
I've attached replays.
All of these will be covered in the rank that shows tricks and advanced uses. The level in the skill rank only covers the most basic behavior of the skill. Combinations with other skills will come later.
Releasing blockers will be a major theme and walkers is among the first options to show. Also canceling skills (basher staircases in particular) will be another big theme.
Cloning several active skills (miners,builders,stackers) is also a topic on it's own. Getting all of this into the Cloner introduction level would be overkill, you could even argue that I should not mention the extra uses until later on.
@Dullstar: I've made a level of exactly the same type in Lemmicks, "Go forth and multiply". I agree with IchoTolot that early levels should stress one idea and one idea only - in this case, it's all about directionality: Both walkers and cloners result in lemmings going into the opposite direction.
I don't know how many levels the first rank, "Skills", is supposed to have eventually, or whether these are all already. If so, 12 is a weird number for Lemmings packs - I'd suggest going up to at least 20, maybe even the standard 30, and show a little more of skill interactions.
For example, the fact that walkers can cancel skills, including blockers, that cloners copy skills, that gliders interact with updrafts, all this is technically still a signature behaviour of the skill itself. For gliders, I guess you could make the case that this belongs in the "Objects" rank, introducing updrafts in general. But the fact that cloners copy and walkers cancel are still inherent properties of the skills - some skills just are too complex to point out everything they do in one level, I guess.
Also, anti-splat pads will have to be added to your "Objects" rank now, since they're getting reintroduced. ;)
Quote
I don't know how many levels the first rank, "Skills", is supposed to have eventually, or whether these are all already. If so, 12 is a weird number for Lemmings packs - I'd suggest going up to at least 20, maybe even the standard 30, and show a little more of skill interactions.
The number itself does not matter here. It could be 7 and when the rank teaches everything it wants to achieve it's fine. I will stay at 12 out of the reason Proxima stated: Don't exhaust the new player right of the get go. Imagine that: You want to learn Lemmings and see a 30 level first rank of new skills...yeah pass that. Instead the first ranks will only introduce the most
basic uses of skills and the most
basic interactions with objects and they will try to be as short as possible while covering the nessesary stuff. Later when providing training levels and examples of tricks you can have a larger rank.
Also the skill rank will not include skill interactions. Again, this is advanced stuff that comes later. After learning the basic uses of skills we should probably teach the player about steel, OWWs, teleporters, frame-stepping and other elemental things first. After all that is done I promise that the core skill interactions will be taught! ;)
To qoute your points one by one:
Quote, that gliders interact with updrafts,
100% Object rank --> updraft introduction.
Quotewalkers can cancel skills
Advanced mechanic that can lead deep into the mechanics -> Training/Trick rank. Even if the blocker interaction is more basic, let's stay a bit more consistent and move the whole theme together.
Quotethat cloners copy skills
Again, this leads deep into the mechanics and is better taught later.
Quotesome skills just are too complex to point out everything they do in one level, I guess.
That's why I am not doing that. ;)
During the last few posts I see that some fall into the trap of wanting to explain everything about a topic at once. That would be counterproductive. You need a short introduction about the basic components first where only the basic uses of them are explained. Anything beyond comes later. It is only problematic if the basic use is not explained properly.
I will continue with the "
Interactables and Functions" rank next where I will go over Steel, Objects and helpful NL functions.
After that is done I move to the "
Tricks and Training" rank where first some basic training levels will come up where the user can play around with a bunch of skills. Then all your interactions and tricks will be slowly trickled in. ;)
So, be patient and after the next level sets come out it all might get clearer. :)
I hope to release the next rank soon after I come back from my trip to my hometown.
I plan to name the rank: Interactables & Functions
For the rest I plan 2 more ranks: Basic Training & Advanced Training. This way basic tricks like "create a digger pit" are seperated from advanced stuff like "cloner+stacker step". Also this helps to keep the ranks smaller while still providing enough training. Still I 100% won't cover every single trick in the book in there and there will be stuff left out! There must be a line and covering the more common stuff is the priority.
Okay, time to do this. I'm playing through the Skills rank again and as I go along, I'll write up suggestions for improving the pre-level texts. (I'll also note any other issues, though I don't think there are any.)
Most of my suggestions will be where I think the text is correct but could be written more effectively. I'll use italics where I note an actual grammar error.
Skills Rank
General
For the level titles, title case usually doesn't capitalise articles or prepositions ("a", "the", "at" etc.)
Level 1
First paragraph is way too long; we need to find a way to introduce a paragraph break.
Cut "overall" and "starting" from first sentence, then it fits on 3 lines, saving a line.
I would rewrite the next two sentences as something like: "Help the Lemmings by assigning them skills. Each level may have a different selection of skills and limit to the number of each you may assign." I think that should fit on 4 lines, allowing for breaks before and after this chunk.
Last paragraph: "The digger lets a Lemming dig straight down, creating a tunnel that other Lemmings will fall into." Note that "into" contains "in" already, so you can't use it with "in which".
Level 2
Paragraph break after "through the terrain".
"As the digger" should be "As with the digger" and have a comma after it.
Level 3
Prefer "two" over "2" when it refers to something that is counted (like skills) rather than measured (like pixels).
Level 4
Same thing with "2". Don't capitalise "Permanent".
"If they hit their head they fall down again" is unneeded (what else would they do?) and cutting it would allow splitting this daunting paragraph into two gentler chunks.
"2 or more pixel height difference in the ceiling": cut "in the ceiling" as the context makes this clear. Cut "then they fall down again" for the same reason as with climbers. Then the splat height info can get its own paragraph, making it more likely the player will notice this.
I mentioned this already, but say "too far" rather than "64 or more pixels", and talk about the exact height together with introducing the splat ruler, in a later level.
Level 5
Cut "if they are doing any tasks..."; save this for skill interactions in Basic & Advanced Training.
Change "their walking form" to "walking", saving another line.
Cut "which can help you remove terrain".
Perhaps use the space saved to mention the 64-pixel height and splat ruler?
Level 6
Cut "without dying", which is redundant with "survive".
Cut "instead of a standard straight fall".
Spelling: "immediately"
Level 7
Okay but again there's a lot of text here. Maybe cut the bit about platformers also having the clicking sound, as this is easy to infer?
Level 8
Change "a bit related to" to "like".
Again, everything here is okay but I personally don't like there being so much text and would hack away the least informative parts: the last two sentences on stackers, and "This can also be used to block Lemmings".
Level 9
Title: "Amphibic" should be "Amphibious".
Paragraph break after "for good". Comma after "As the Swimmer".
Last sentence: change to "The disarming process takes a few seconds, but the trap becomes inactive immediately."
Level 10
"2" again.
Another very long text, but I don't see any obvious cuts to make.
Level 11
Change "You've clearly noticed" to "You may have noticed". Let's not make the player feel bad if they didn't!
Change "The rate of which" to "The rate at which".
Spelling: "though" (in the last sentence)
Level 12
Change "At last" to "And last".
Change "one after the other" to "one after another" and "which timer" to "whose timer".
Thanks for the feddback Proxima. :thumbsup: I will go through this when I'm fully back next week and prepare adding the next rank. :)
In regards to the preview text, I'd suggest withholding any information that won't be relevant until later levels. For example, the Walker/Cloner level has some very wordy text, and Proxima correctly notes that there aren't any obvious cuts to make. I assume this is because all the behaviors mentioned are important to know for those skills. However, this level doesn't demonstrate that walkers cancel skills, and it doesn't demonstrate that cloners retain their current skills, and it seems there is a consensus that these behaviors should be withheld until later levels. Can this portion of the explanation also be withheld until that time? If it doesn't make sense to show the player those behaviors right away, I think it would be logically consistent to also not tell the player about this behavior right away.
V 0.04 is out!- Added the 2nd rank: Interactables & Functions
- Included a lot of pre-level text changes according to user feedback (mostly the majority of things mentioned in Proxima's post).
The updraft, splat-pad, anti splat-pad level is obviously still missing the anti splat-pad. That one is currently replaced by another updraft.
The new rank 2 pre-level texts are more wordy than the rank 1 ones, but trying to explain framestepping + hotkeys in 1 screen is a challenge let's say. ;P Again if you have a shorter/better text with the same information value: Post it and I may change it. :)
QuoteFor the level titles, title case usually doesn't capitalise articles or prepositions ("a", "the", "at" etc.)
This you can count towards my general style that i developed shortly after Reunion. I usually capitalise every word in a level title, because I think it looks better. And as everybody does it differently anyway I normally stick to my style in this case.
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 04, 2019, 04:03:51 PMQuoteFor the level titles, title case usually doesn't capitalise articles or prepositions ("a", "the", "at" etc.)
This you can count towards my general style that i developed shortly after Reunion. I usually capitalise every word in a level title, because I think it looks better. And as everybody does it differently anyway I normally stick to my style in this case.
Yeah, I do the same actually.
Now, for feedback on the new rank:
General - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.
Level 1 "Up For A Walk?" - This level was a bit laggy for me even in fast-forward mode. There were also some lemmings that turned around during the last bash (or close to it), which even with fast forward takes ages. Suggestion - introduce the time skip here as well. Regarding the text, "Pressing the button with the two green arrows" - I would change this to "Clicking" (not "Pressing"). I'd also maybe stress "skill panel button" again here, or maybe even mention the panel buttons first, then later say "You can also use the hotkeys...".
Level 2 "Iron Anthill" - "Levels can also include verticality", this sounds
really awkward to me. In general - "verticality" is not a word that generally gets used. "Levels can also scroll vertically", or "Levels can vary in height as well as width" might be better phrasing. Also, the feature has consistently been termed "
clear physics mode", not "true physics mode". This is also another level that would benefit greatly from the time skips already being introduced. By tutorial level standards, this is a pretty fun level, though!
Level 3 "Time and Crime" - I don't see any problems with this one. :)
Level 4 "Trap Roulette" - It feels a bit awkward that the description immediately starts with "some traps only...", without first talking at all about what a trap is in and of itself. (A new-to-Lemmings player might wonder - does it kill, or does it just trap a lemming in one place until you do something to release him, for example.) On a side note, some of the Lemmings Plus traps aren't quite behaving as they should graphically, I need to look into that, but that's my problem - just that I noticed it on this level.
Level 5 "Set Your Priorities Right" - I suggest making the floater section a bit higher, because currently, floaters (whether the pre-assigned or the skill panel ones) aren't actually necessary here. Maybe this depends on exact positioning, but IMO it makes more sense for them to be always required.
Level 6 "Follow The Arrows" - Everything seems good here! :D
Level 7 "Pick Them Up And Push Them Down" - Again, all seems well with this one.
Level 8 "Split And Splat" - Here too.
Level 9 "Beam Them Over" - The middle section on the left, I would swap the two teleporters around. This makes it possible to recover from a mistake here, which doesn't really harm the level in any way.
Level 10 "Gravity Lab" - "Floaters get slowed down" - so do normal lemmings, it's just more noticable with floaters, but both fall 1px/frame slower than usual. Also - use the resizing on the updrafts instead of placing multiple where possible; on V12.6.0 onwards this looks much nicer. ;)
Level 11 "Stop, Rewind and Go" - Minus doesn't have to be specifically numpad-minus. Also, you can right click or middle click on the skill panel buttons for different skip durations (1sec and 5sec, IIRC).
Level 12 "The Joy Of Sorting" - This one is quite tricky, I wonder if it needs to have every permanent skill involved? I think you could get the point across with a simpler setup - the climber, disarmer and no-permanent-skills entrances as-is, plus a second no-permanents entrance that spawns 2 lemmings. Place two additional limit-1
entrances exits (sorry, mistake), one just before each climbable wall. Remove the remaining entrances and their corresponding exits, and adjust the skillset accordingly.
Level 13 "Highlights With A Safety Net" - Typo in the text, "kepp" -> "keep". Aside from that, seems good.
Level 14 "Night Of The Living Lems" - All seems good here.
Quote from: namida on September 04, 2019, 07:44:41 PMit should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.
This is a good idea, because it would be frustrating for new users to have the intro texts teach them about hotkeys and then try them out and they don't work. However, there are two other problems to consider: the user may not have any hotkey for a given function (especially timeskips since you can choose your own lengths of timeskip to assign hotkeys to); and for functions like splat ruler where the default is an alphabetic key, the intro text writer may leave space for a single letter, but a particular user may have assigned something like Ctrl to it.
@namida: Thanks for the feedback. :)
QuoteGeneral - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.
Then I will wait for that function before any changes in that section. I have no idea what the "Functional layout" is and with your described function I would catch all cases.
QuoteAlso, the feature has consistently been termed "clear physics mode", not "true physics mode".
That one is on me. ;P
Level 1 and 2: Yes, those would benefit from the 10 sec skip, but I wanted to keep all framestepping actions together as a theme, so I aimed to introduce FF as fast as possible here as a temporal relief. Also the preview texts here are quite at the limit as the levels already introduce quite a bit. Especially the 1st level should be an example of suboptimal level desgin: Large landscape with not much going on so that FF feels better. I could turn down the decoration though to reduce lag.
Level 4: "Basic" traps were already introduced in rank 1 with the disarmer as that was unavoidable. This is more about single-use ones and also an opportunity to show more traps to the player.
Level 5: Well, the floater were more than an afterthought to show pre-placer can have permanent skills and the skill panel ones were just an emergency addition so that no situation can become very problematical. I could place the tunnel higher though.
Level 9: Seems reasonable.
Level 10/11: Ok, I should mention this. And I constantly forget that I can indeed resize!
Level 12: Yes, that could be an easier suitable variation and I could reuse this version in basic training as an expansion/returning level. I want to hear more oppinions first though.
Level 13: Quick fix.
Anyway the next update will not happen today in order to let more feedback trickle in.
Quote from: Proxima on September 04, 2019, 08:00:57 PM
Quote from: namida on September 04, 2019, 07:44:41 PMit should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.
This is a good idea, because it would be frustrating for new users to have the intro texts teach them about hotkeys and then try them out and they don't work. However, there are two other problems to consider: the user may not have any hotkey for a given function (especially timeskips since you can choose your own lengths of timeskip to assign hotkeys to); and for functions like splat ruler where the default is an alphabetic key, the intro text writer may leave space for a single letter, but a particular user may have assigned something like Ctrl to it.
Time skips may be a difficult one, yeah. Cases where no hotkey is assigned should be easy enough.
Perhaps a different approach will work better here - namely, going with the expectation that the hotkey text might take up an entire line. Then, we'd just have on its own line, for example: "Pause hotkey: P | F11 | Middle Click" (in the actual data files: "Pause hotkey: [HOTKEY:PAUSE]" or similar).
QuoteGeneral - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.
Then I will wait for that function before any changes in that section. I have no idea what the "Functional layout" is and with your described function I would catch all cases.
When first starting NeoLemmix with no existing configuration (as in, no config at all, not just a missing hotkeys file) it prompts the user to select between "Functional layout" (formerly titled "Lix-like layout"), "Traditional layout" (the one you're used to), or "Minimal layout" (only assigns a very few keys: Esc to exit, mousewheel to zoom in and out, MMB pause, and RMB scroll; this is for people who want to create their own layout without having to clear the default first).
Comments on everything other than the hotkey issue:
Comments
Rank 1: Greatly improved. :thumbsup: All the main issues have been addressed, and I don't mind that you didn't agree with me on everything, because a lot of the things I said were subjective. The only thing I'd still suggest changing is in Level 1 -- the long first paragraph is a bit daunting for the very first text you ask the player to read, so I'd put a paragraph break after "assigning them skills".
By Rank 2, longer texts are a bit more acceptable since the player has (hopefully) gotten a taste for NeoLemmix and is more willing to spend time reading, knowing they get rewarded with cool levels. So I won't say too much about the length here, but I'll look out in case there are cuts I think you should make.
Rank title: It wouldn't be clear to a new player what you mean by "functions", and "interactables" is cumbersome (and the very first object introduced, background decoration, is not interactive). I would just call this rank "Objects" even though it also tutorialises some hotkeys; most of the focus is on objects, and the hotkeys are just introduced along the way when they become relevant.
Level 1: It's the "paws" button, not "paw". Hence the pun.
Level 2: "Steel can't be destroyed" is true but you could make the stronger statement "Steel can't be damaged". This would also avoid the repetition of destroyed/destructive.
Let's should be lets. "Let's" is short for "let us" and is used to make suggestions, as in "Let's go for a walk."
Level 3: No issues.
Level 4: Typo: "trun" for "turn" at the start of the second paragraph.
Level 5: Cut "to make sure he faces the correct direction".
Suggested rewrite for second paragraph: "Levels may begin with some pre-placed lemmings, which are active straight away. They may begin with permanent skills already assigned to them."
Level 6: "One-way walls" has only one hyphen. Fifth line should be "bashers, fencers or miners".
Second paragraph: "basher" should be "bashers".
Level 7: Comma after "though". Spelling: "necessary".
This level (and also Level 9) requires builders to be placed precisely. I can't remember, did the first rank talk about skill shadows at any point? Might be good to fit in a mention somewhere, and it will be tricky to do this in rank 2 which already has longer texts.
Level 8: Comma after "64-pixel fall".
Level 9: "They only can" should be "They can only".
Level 10: "Splat pads" are not hyphenated, and "anti-splat pads" have only one. "In contrast" should be "by contrast".
Level 11: The wall of text is extremely daunting. Fortunately, I think this one needs a full rewrite anyway, because it shouldn't mention specific hotkeys or time intervals since the player may have a different hotkey setup, and that should shorten it quite a bit anyway.
This was a fun level! :thumbsup:
Level 12: Replace second sentence with "In this case they are marked with the icon of that skill."
Suggested rewrite for second paragraph: "Normally, lemmings are equally spread among all hatches, but some hatches can be limited to spawning a certain number of lemmings." [Keep the part about exits as-is.]
The level is pretty tricky as you can't make any mistakes in where lemmings go -- though by this point we have been introduced to rewinding, so it might be okay to leave it.
Level 13: Typo: "hightlight". Pretty neat level 8-)
Level 14: "Who shall nullify" should be "to nullify". Spelling: "incoming".
Might I suggest swapping levels 5 and 6 in the new rank?
Level 6 is the actual introduction level for OWW, though they are used in Level 5. However, the skills taught by Level 5 are not particularly important for Level 6.
Will prepare a patch later. Thanks for all the feedback. :)
Quote from: Dullstar on September 05, 2019, 07:34:15 AM
Might I suggest swapping levels 5 and 6 in the new rank?
Level 6 is the actual introduction level for OWW, though they are used in Level 5. However, the skills taught by Level 5 are not particularly important for Level 6.
Total screw up from my part! :-[ Yes, those need to be swapped.
V 0.05 is out! Please delete your old folder while updating as the old rank name won't be overwritten!- Renamed "Interactables" to "Objects" (even if the rank also introduces steel ;P)
- 1 02 mentions skill shadows now
- A
TON of rewritten/corrected texts.
- 2 01 removed a bit of the decoration.
- 2 09 swapped 2 teleporters
- 2 10 uses extended updrafts now
- 2 12 was reworked into a simpler version (original version will probably return in a later rank)
- 2 05 <--> 2 06
Quote
Level 5 "Set Your Priorities Right" - I suggest making the floater section a bit higher, because currently, floaters (whether the pre-assigned or the skill panel ones) aren't actually necessary here. Maybe this depends on exact positioning, but IMO it makes more sense for them to be always required.
I've decided against the certain splat-fall here for more simplicity, even if the floaters serve no other use other than demonstration as a result.
A nice second round of feedback would be nice after this patch as I could have easily forgotten something. :P
V 0.06 is out!
- Changed the hotkey displaying inside the texts.
I attached an exp NL version that displays the actual user hotkeys inside the text. Let me know if your setup breaks any textlines!
Without the exp version some textlines will definitely not fit. ;)
The exp also includes the "preview texts don't show again after going to menu" fix and the "can middle-click on preview screen, to force viewing the preview text" change.
Warning: Make a backup for your settings and hotkeys files as there might be a problem with the exp changing that.
The line explaining Select Walker goes over the edge of the screen slightly, and in level 13 of the 2nd rank, the hotkey names are still hardcoded. I'm using the default hotkey setup with the "Traditional layout" option.
The new level for limited entrances / exits is much more suitable IMO! It still requires patience and careful thinking, but isn't overly complicated for a tutorial level. Also, the updrafts on the lab level look much nicer now too. ;)
Those are the only things that stood out to me on a quick look through the new version.
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 07, 2019, 07:10:14 PMI attached an exp NL version that displays the actual user hotkeys inside the text. Let me know if your setup breaks any textlines!
As expected, the line about the ten-second skip doesn't work for me; "No Hotkey Assigned" breaks the line completely. Everything else is fine.
V 0.07 is out!
- New level at 2 12 for explaining longer timeskips. Text there also mentions where to change hotkeys.
- Text at 2 06 has changed.
- Text at 2 11 has changed.
- Text at the new 2 14 has changed.
For any "No Hotkey Assigned" cases, I would push towards any chosen standard layout should assign these. :8():
If no more issues arise I will then soon continue with the "Basic Training" rank. :)
Currently, I've got 16 levels for the "Basic Training" rank and I am considering to increase the aimed ammount of levels in there from 20 to 25 or even 30.
The ammount of trick/mechanic lessons in there stays the same, but a slightly larger rank has more room for just general levels to train so players get more of routine with handling lemmings.
What are your thoughts about this? ??? I think apart from the lessons levels a healthy bunch of general training levels can really help getting things across and let the player gather more experience.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think we will have lots of disagreement over what should be included in a "basic training" rank and what would be better to leave for the player to figure out for themselves :P
Quote from: Proxima on October 04, 2019, 01:03:09 PM
It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think we will have lots of disagreement over what should be included in a "basic training" rank and what would be better to leave for the player to figure out for themselves :P
That is bound to happen, but I rather show a bit more than less as a general rule of thumb. ;P
Examples would be: Release methods from blocker traps, digger/stacker/stoner holding pits, different cloner interactions, walker cancelling (includes basher staircases for example), compression method, uneven steel, climber+shimmier....... But you will see. ;P
V 0.08 is out!The update introduces the "Basic Training" rank with 25 levels!
The single levels intend to teach the following topics:
Spoiler
- Basic Training
- Basic Training
- Blocker release: Walker, Bomber, Basher, Miner, Digger
- Training: Blockers
- Training: Blocker Digger Release
- Basher Ascend, Climber+Shimmier
- Training: Basher Ascend, Climber+Shimmier
- Training: Blockers, Uneaven terrain
- Builder/Platformer Stretching, Basher positioning.
- Crowd Delaying
- Training: Crowd Delaying, Builder Stretching
- Training: Sorting, Planning
- Blocker Substitudes: Stacker, Stoner. Deployment Speed of Stackers and Stoners.
- Digger Holding Pit
- Training: Digger Holding Pit
- 6-pixel step up, Stepping through Terrain
- Training: Step-up
- Builder+Blocker, Miner+Blocker, Digger+Blocker
- Compression Method
- Training: +Blocker Combo, Compression
- Satcker+Cloner, Builder+Cloner, Glider+Cloner, Miner+Cloner, Climber+Bomber
- Platformer+Basher, Builder+Miner, Digger+Stacker
- Training: Miner+Builder, Cloner
- Walker Interrupt: Platformer, Builder, Basher, Miner, Fencer, Stacker
- Training: Walker Interrupt
If this rank becomes somewhat stable again I will start creating the "Advanced Training" rank. Currently I plan to cover the following things there:
Spoiler
- Precise Digger/Miner/Basher top-down Staircases
- Basher through parallel builders
- Stoner+Stacker step-up
- Digger assignments at the last moment before he falls
- Basher staircases without builders/walkers. 3 parts: 1) Block+Bomb. 2) Block+Dig+Bash/Dig+Block+Bash. 3) Without a crowd and 2 bashers: Block+Dig+Block+Bash
If you have more things that should be covered please post them here and I will consider them.
Changes to rank 2 will be made after the release of the next major NL version to cover anti-splat pads and neutral lemmings.
Feedback for first 10 levels
"Tower Of Training" - I'm not sure about this one specifically as a tutorial level. I was able to solve it using just bashers and builders, for one - I wonder if a tutorial level like this should require more variety...?
"With Minimal Efforts" - This one, on the other hand, needed a variety of skills and was much better. I do wonder if the end part - especially given that the crowd will likely be coming in quite bunched up - might be a bit tricky for newer players though? My other question would be whether it might be better to allow more than one way to deal with the fatal drop, since most other parts in both of these levels can be approached more than one way and fatal falls are a particularly useful thing to know multiple ways to deal with?
"Blocker Rocker" - I think the "block under entrance / fall, dig later" might belong in Advanced Training, personally. My only other criticism here - and this is more relevant to existing players than new ones - is that the pillar bottoms along the way look, at first glance, like they could be squasher traps.
"Steely Halls" - This level lacks introduction text - but I'm assuming that's just something you're doing with the levels that aren't specifically teaching anything?
"Limited Release" - This level feels a bit tricky for beginner, even if the trick is accepted as a beginner trick, because of how little time is left to release the crowd (or the need to find an alternate way to release them and then free the blocker, which isn't impossible) when the route is completed...
"Reach-Around" - This one, again, feels a bit tricky for a beginner tutorial rank - not the sending a worker around part, but the building inwards from both sides part in the middle.
"It's A Stretch" - The level itself works nicely, but I think each gap can be made 1 pixel more lenient, while still requiring the player to stretch every bridge.
"Delaying the Inevitable" - This one was especially well done IMO! :)
I'll continue with this later.
Thanks for the feedback. :)
I think there are a few misunderstandings though that the only tutorial levels here are the ones that introduce mechanics. The other ones are just training levels where the player should be on his own learing what works and what not and maybe re-apply already learned tricks.
Spoiler
Quote"Tower Of Training"
Again, it's not a tutorial level. The goal is to simply give the player a bunch of tools and the rest is up to them. They can stick to 2 tools, they can choose otherwise. They should do what they think fits best for them. If the low-variety approach works and is ok with them, they should be able to do this. Finding out what works is the challenge.
Quote"With Minimal Efforts"
Yes, the crowd can be bunched up, that's a goal of the level actually and why the save req is only 20. Be ok to loose a few if the level allows it is the message here. I also want to hammer it in a bit that stoners are easy fatal fall killers. Again the goal of these levels are not to enforce variety, but rather drop the player into a (skill) pool and let them figure out to swim (solve).
Quote"Blocker Rocker"
"block under entrance / fall, dig later" I would consider a very essential and basic tool. I judge tricks not only on precision and difficulty, but also on occurance and usage and this is a method I use all the time and saw many levels requiring it. That's the reson it's here and early.
Quote"Steely Halls"
Exactly. Nothing new, just training --> no text.
Quote"Limited Release"
I will increase the lem count by a bit then. Again, I want to hammer the digger release in.
Quote"Reach-Around"
I gave extra little builders to make the player realise that building from 1 side doesn't work and every other thing in the level is just a re-telling of the last level. I don't see the high difficulty here to be honest. If the "sending a worker around part" isn't difficult then the bridges won't be as well in my book as the main reason to send a lem around is the bridge. But I want to hear more voices here. If more people feel this is too tricky I will include a level before this which introduces the 2 bridge approach specifically.
EDIT: I think I've got the idea for the level: Place pick up skills on each sides with the builders. That should hint at the 2 side approach as you NEED to get the pick-ups
Quote"It's A Stretch"
Ok, I can make each gap a bit more forgiving.
Sorry - I meant "tutorial level" in the sense of that it's in a tutorial pack, more than anything focused on the individual levels themself. I should have clarified this.
Next few levels...
Spoiler
"Chalk Walk" - There are two spots where infinite containment is possible, simply by not assigning a blocker yet. I sent you screenshots of these on Discord. Aside from that, this level is a pretty good one.
"Hidden Crystalline Temple" - Either I seriously overcomplicated this, or this level is really hard. :O Replay attached in case.
"Dig The Trench" - The 2nd builder has to be pixel-precise, I don't see any value added to the level by this.
Response:
Spoiler
Quote"Chalk Walk"
Will be fixed with a trap and a flamer most likely.
Quote"Hidden Crystalline Temple"
Really overcomplicated. ;P But I think I can maybe restrict the skillset with pickups to lower entropy (only give like 2 stackers+2stoners at the start). I've attached the intended way for you to inspect.
Quote"Dig The Trench"
Should be no big deal to ease the precision.
V 0.09 is out!
Following changes have been made based on namida's feedback:
- 3 05 Increased lem count from 80 to 100.
- 3 07 The builders are now pick-ups to give the player a clear hint.
- 3 09 Platforms expanded to decrease precision.
- 3 11 Hopefully blocked the loops with flamers.
- 3 13 Most of the skills are now pick-ups to greatly reduce entropy.
- 3 14 Moved a platform to decrease required precision.
And now finishing off the rest of the rank...
(Note: Since none of the levels I haven't done yet were included in the changelog, I didn't redownload.)
Spoiler
"Steps and Pixels" - The diagonal pixel thing only occurs in one place, and I think it could be easily overlooked, and is even possible to avert altogether EDIT: no, it isn't, I wasn't quite thinking straight when I wrote that. I think more emphasis on that is needed - maybe some downwards steps with it near the end? That aside, this level is pretty good - and the skill queueing feature makes it a lot more suitable for new players than it would have been previously! :D
"Stepblocked" - To me, it wasn't immediately obvious that I wouldn't need the Walker later, and thus I used a trick that might not be expected (RR99 right away, last lemming builds instead of first) to avert the need for it near the start. Even if the player realises the walker is unneeded, should they choose to assign the builder first, the 3rd lemming gets in the way of the most obvious spot to assign the builder, making the shadow hard to see. I wonder - could the release rate be a bit lower here?
"Concentrated Force" - The save requirement as it stands requires timing the crowd release so the crowd merges with the basher. I don't feel this adds any value to the level as a tutorial, so I suggest dropping the save requirement to 43.
"Blocked In Your Favor" - Very nice level! :)
"Combine & Conquer" - Saying "a well placed builder can keep a Fencer going" is misleading. A fencer will always continue up a builder bridge. No issues with the level itself IMO, although I think demonstrating the fencer case too would be easy enough.
"Equal Distribution" - This one has me stumped. Which would be great in a normal pack, but a bit worrying in a tutorial pack.
"Special Staircase" - The builder not only doesn't need to be interrupted, but cannot be interrupted. Instead, he should be allowed to hit his head. Is this intentional?
"Stepping Up To The Stars" - I had a walker left over - the 2nd basher didn't need to be stopped. (Perhaps you intended a fencer or miner to be used right at the top? I used the miner near the start, then fencer, basher, stacker, fencer, basher, platformer.)
Aside from the level-specific feedbacks, I wonder if there should be a level or two gap between a tutorial level and the practice level that uses what it taught? Enough that the player has to think more than "what did the immediately previous level teach me?", but recent enough that it's still fairly fresh in the player's mind.
Alright, here are my answers:
Spoiler
Quote"Steps and Pixels"
An additional diagonal drop near the exit is a good idea.
Quote"Stepblocked"
Will make the Walker a pick-up, lock and lower the RR.
Quote"Concentrated Force"
This is a slight introduction/training to timing things as well. To the compression tutorial it adds nothing, but I also want to enforce a bit of timing/precision from time to time. Players need to learn it and this is a rather clear and easy case.
Quote"Combine & Conquer"
Will rework the text + make an extra training level with the fencer.
Quote"Equal Distribution"
That's very surprising! Will lower entropy through pick-ups again.
Quote"Special Staircase"
Will rework the builder part.
Quote"Stepping Up To The Stars"
Will enforce the additional canceling.
As I completely forgot a basic trick (Builder Walls), the fencer+builder case should be trained and I was already unsure to place digger stircases in advanced,
the Basic Training rank will get 5 additional levels!So new plan for additional levels:
Basic training:
- Precise Digger/Miner/Basher top-down Staircases
- Builder blocks
- Fencer+Builder Training
+ 2 more
Advanced Training:
- Miner+Platformer,Basher+platformer staircases
- Basher through parallel builders
- Stoner+Stacker step-up
- Digger assignments at the last moment before he falls
- Basher staircases without builders/walkers. 3 parts: 1) Block+Bomb. 2) Block+Dig+Bash/Dig+Block+Bash. 3) Without a crowd and 2 bashers: Block+Dig+Block+Bash
+ X
As for fixes:
Spoiler
- 6-pixel step up, Stepping through Terrain (diagonal drop at the exit)
- Training: Step-up (Walker pick-up, lock+lower RR)
- Platformer+Basher, Builder+Miner, Digger+Stacker (change pre-text)
- Training: Miner+Builder, Cloner (lower entropy)
- Walker Interrupt: Platformer, Builder, Basher, Miner, Fencer, Stacker (enforce Builder interrupt)
- Training: Walker Interrupt (enforce last interrupt)
V 0.10 is out!
Following changes have been made based on namida's feedback:
- 3 16 Added another diagonal drop.
- 3 17 The walker is now a pick-up skill, RR locked and lowered.
- 3 22 Preview text had been made clearer.
- 3 23 A lot of skills are now pick-ups to greatly lower entropy.
- 3 24 Enforced the builder canceling.
- 3 25 The miner is now a pick-up skill to block a backroute.
New levels based on the plans I posted before will be coming when they are ready. :) Better save replays by level name and not by position as quite a few position switches will be happening.
Really enjoying this pack so far, learning a lot about NeoLemmix's capabilities. The level I've just played (Objects & Functions 7 - Pick Them Up And Push Them Down) has come as a bit of a revelation as I've been thinking it would be good to pick up skills in-level whilst designing my current pack, and now I know it's possible in NeoLemmix!
(Incidentally, since a lot of the new features (splitters, buttons, item pick-ups) will need hi-res graphics (and possibly even animations for walkers that meet them for the first time), I'm happy to do these as well when the time comes.)
I've attached my replays so far. I'm a bit stuck on the current level (O&F 8 - Split And Splat) as it's not clear exactly how to stop the splitter from working, or turn the Lemmings around...
Thanks for the feedback. :)
QuoteI've attached my replays so far. I'm a bit stuck on the current level (O&F 8 - Split And Splat) as it's not clear exactly how to stop the splitter from working,
Will add to the introduction text then that
splitters can't be deactivated. They will always work.
Quoteor turn the Lemmings around...
Well, you have 1 type of skill. ;) Try to remember the skill introduction level for that one. Also you can loose a bunch of lemmings, 100% isn't nessesary.
I plan to release 5 new levels for rank 3 hopefully this week. Will add the splitter info from above with that patch too. :)
Quote from: IchoTolot on November 03, 2019, 10:03:42 PM
Quoteor turn the Lemmings around...
Well, you have 1 type of skill. ;) Try to remember the skill introduction level for that one. Also you can loose a bunch of lemmings, 100% isn't nessesary.
Aha - got it, thanks!
Spoiler
Wierdly though, the stackers were performing the builder skill when I was playing this level yesterday evening... I couldn't make it happen again today though.
Looking forward to the new levels!
V 0.11 is out!
The zip file is now inteded to be extracted right inside the main NL folder! Inside the zip is a "levels" folder first and then the pack's folder as a result.
Following changes have been made based on Willem's feedback:
- 2 08 Added the pre-text info that splitters can't be deactivated.
Following levels have been added:
- 3 05 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 07 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 08 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 21 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 27 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
The level count for rank 3 is now 30 as a result. :)
Am I missing something on Gravity Lab...??? I can't seem to figure this one out at all.
Quote from: WillLem on November 07, 2019, 11:45:22 PM
Am I missing something on Gravity Lab...??? I can't seem to figure this one out at all.
Did you catch the following things from the pre-text (if not then it might be written more clearly):
- Updrafts prevent Lemmings from splatting.
- Updrafts slow the fall of lemmings and especially floaters.
- Updrafts cause gliders to glide upwards.
- Splat-pats let non floater/glider lemmings splat if they fall on it.
- Anti-splat pads prevent lemmings from splatting.
Please, if you think some of the points above is not made clear in the text tell me!For the level:
To show all these interactions I gave 3 lemmings, 1 glider and 1 floater. So you can have 1 normal lemming, 1 glider and 1 floater.
Now you should figure out who needs to be who, if that's right the level should nearly solve itself.
Quote- Splat-pats let non floater/glider lemmings splat if they fall on it.
English mistake here - Splat-pads "make" them splat. "Let" in this context has the meaning of "allow", not "cause" or "force". (Although the opposite case - "Antisplat pads let lemmings survive" - is fine. I don't know the theory behind why this one is okay, it's just a "as a native speaker I know this is fine" situation.)
V 0.12 is out!
Little 12.7.0 update here as well:
- 2 10 has now an anti-splat pad and I fixed the error namida pointed out.
Rank 2 will be getting a neutral lemmings introduction level with the next bigger content-adding patch. :)
The levels have not been cleansed yet, due to the current bug. ;P
V 0.13 is out!
Levels cleansed.
Level folder renamed! It contains now "_" instead of " ", due to naming conditions. Please delete the old level folder of this pack to properly update.
Hi IchoTolot,
Here are my replays for the Skills / Objects & Functions ranks. I'll start on the Basic one soon and get those over as well.
Feedback so far (hopefully this will be useful as I am very much a NeoLemmix beginner):
The pack is generally very enjoyable to play through, presenting some challenges of normal difficulty whilst teaching the skills - the pack does a very good job of this and I already feel more at home with NeoLemmix just after these two ranks.
The O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.
I did find one or two of the levels very difficult to find the solution for, in spite of their simplicity.
Spoiler
Namely Split and Splat and Gravity Lab. With the former, since it's not possible to save all the Lemmings it kind of gives the splitter object a bad first impression. My honest advice here would be to slow the release rate to allow the stacker to finish creating a blockade before the next Lemming reaches it; it also gives players the chance to process exactly what's happening with the splitters (the pre-screen explains it perfectly fine, but it's one thing having something explained and another seeing it in action for yourself. It may be worth giving people a bit more time with this one.)
With Gravity Lab, it took me quite a few attempts before I realised that you had to let the first Lemming just fall (in order to have enough builders for the later part of the level). My instinct each time was to make them either a floater or a glider, and I'm sure this will be the case for most NeoLemmix newcomers - after all, we've spent years assigning such skills to Lemmings that are about to walk off a big drop! I did realise from the pre-screen explanation that I was meant to use the updraft to slow the floater down, and to be fair you do say that the order in which the skills are assigned is important (the penny eventually dropped!) buuut... I dunno, I guess it's just a lot to process in one go. Hmmm... maybe leave it actually, coz it is a good puzzle and I won't forget how to use updrafts after that level!
With levels that introduce a completely new concept or object (pickups, buttons, splitters, teleporters, limited-number entrances & exits), it may be an idea to make them as basic as possible - like, first few levels of Fun basic. Just showing the player what the item does, but not in the context of a puzzle just yet. Or, present the item first in a simple set-up level, and then have a puzzle level straight afterwards (this would obviously increase the number of levels...). Just an idea, and one I'm sure you have already considered. If you were to leave it as is, it's totally fine and perfectly enjoyable for any decent Lemmings player. But if the idea is to welcome in
complete beginners, then presenting the new stuff in the same manner as the skills themselves may be worthwhile...
Levels I particularly enjoyed were: O&F11
Stop, Rewind and Go, 13
Getting Into Sorting and 15
Night of the Living Lems. These were all my kinda puzzles ;P They do a great job of keeping things simple but challenging whilst also easing the player into new concepts such as limited-number entrances & exits, multitasking in pause mode and... Zombie Lemmings! :lem-mindblown:
Enjoy the replays, I'll get the Basic ones over to you at some point soon-ish.
Best regards,
-WillLem 8-)
Thanks for the replays, I see no backroutes here. :)
Comments:
QuoteThe O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.
I have no influence on that one. Which hotkey layout did you choose with the installation? These layouts should cover the hotkeys mentioned here otherwise point these missing ones out to namida, together with the layout you chose.
You can also assign them manually in the hotkey menu.
QuoteWith the former, since it's not possible to save all the Lemmings it kind of gives the splitter object a bad first impression.
It is possible to save everyone, indeed my replay does so, but a point of the levels is to show the player that loosing lemmings is indeed alright. In this level you can loose a third of the crowd and the player should feel empowered to do so. The save requirement is not 100% for a reason, new players should loose lemmings here.
I can lower the save requirement if you advice, but losses should be expected. Players must learn and get used to let lemmings go.
QuoteWith levels that introduce a completely new concept or object (pickups, buttons, splitters, teleporters, limited-number entrances & exits), it may be an idea to make them as basic as possible - like, first few levels of Fun basic. Just showing the player what the item does, but not in the context of a puzzle just yet. Or, present the item first in a simple set-up level, and then have a puzzle level straight afterwards (this would obviously increase the number of levels...). Just an idea, and one I'm sure you have already considered. If you were to leave it as is, it's totally fine and perfectly enjoyable for any decent Lemmings player. But if the idea is to welcome in complete beginners, then presenting the new stuff in the same manner as the skills themselves may be worthwhile...
Well, these should be the very basic cases which still cover every aspect mentioned.
For the gravity level for example here is my creation thinking process: I covered all 3 instances of updraft interactions: Normal, floater, glider. The only puzzle should be in which order the 2 permanent skills must be assigned to the 3 lemmings, this is also hinted at inside the pre-text. The 2 builders 100% have to cover the water pit and the splatpad there is no alternative, as otherwise the level is always impossible and not all lemings can go towards the exit. The 1 fencer has to be for the last pillar.
Quote from: IchoTolot on November 15, 2019, 05:33:10 PM
QuoteThe O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.
I have no influence on that one. Which hotkey layout did you choose with the installation? These layouts should cover the hotkeys mentioned here otherwise point these missing ones out to namida, together with the layout you chose.
You can also assign them manually in the hotkey menu.
Ah - is this set to automatically assign whichever key the user has specified as the hotkey to the text? In that case, this makes sense as I've assigned time-skipping duties to mouse clicks (L-forward 1 frame/R-backward 1 frame) rather than keys. Would this explain the issue?
Quote from: WillLem on November 16, 2019, 02:16:34 PM
Ah - is this set to automatically assign whichever key the user has specified as the hotkey to the text? In that case, this makes sense as I've assigned time-skipping duties to mouse clicks (L-forward 1 frame/R-backward 1 frame) rather than keys. Would this explain the issue?
Exactly. :)
I have completed the pack so far.
Quote from: joshescue18 on November 24, 2019, 12:11:20 AM
I have completed the pack so far.
This is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the
more important aspect.
It's a great pack, there are some enjoyable levels and as a NeoLemmix beginner I have found it really useful in getting to grips with some of the new skills - there's no way I could have taken on the all-new-skills challenge (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4516.0) without having had a look at this pack first (or, I would have struggled a lot with it at first).
Constructive feedback: I'd just look again at the pre-screens and make sure that they're as clear as possible. I've noticed a few typos and mis-wordings (some examples below):
Spoiler
Before Blocker Rocker: "Blocker are an effective way of containing the crowd, so that a single worker Lemming can create a save way to the exit..."
"Walkers can be used to turn blocker into a normal walker again..."
Before Top-Down Approach: "Bashers won't stop when encountering a slight steel slope as they can going SLIGHTLY upwards or downwards." - should this read "...as they can continue going..."?
"When giving them a shimmier close to the ceiling they won't fall down and transition into a shimmier instead. The syntax of this, if misread, implies that they won't "fall down and transition into a shimmier". It's nitpicking, perhaps, but these things need to be very clear to avoid confusion.
I'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.
Some positive feedback:
I think you do a great job of keeping the levels fun and interesting whilst also presenting enough of a challenge so they don't just feel like boring tutorial levels. The pack in general is great for this reason.
Favourite Levels:
Top-Down Approach takes a couple of looks to solve even though it's quite straightforward
The Reacharound is a great puzzle - took me a while to unlock the secret to this one
Chalk-Walk is a great concept, and a new one on me. It's inspired me to have a go at making a level like this
The Joy Of Sorting looks incredibly ominous at first glance, but it's just a question of making sure you do things in the correct order!
Blocked In Your Favour does a great job of combining the skills used in the previous few levels; takes a few looks to get right!
Double Down and
Equal Distribution - probably my biggest favourites of the whole pack; I love cloners!
Fancy Fencer :thumbsup:
I've attached replays for all the Basic Training levels - very much enjoyed playing through these.
I completely forgot to respond to Willem. I've read the message and looked through the replays though. ;P
V 0.14 is out! :)
A level has been added as the new rank 2 finisher:
- Neutral Response (Introduction to neutral lemmings)
QuoteThis is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the more important aspect.
Well, it still resulted in this: ;)
Backroute fixes:
- 3 20 (extra steel)
- 3 30 (extra fencer pick up)
I also patched up the spelling mistakes and slight unclarities Willem pointed out. :)
Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:
QuoteI'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.
Will do that for rank 4. ;)
I am a fairly new lemmings player. I've played Fun through Taxing of the original, but nothing else. Skills that weren't in the original are new to me. I thought I'd give my perspective as I play through.
General Comments:Spoiler
- The visual style is great. All the stages look really good. I like that you used the original themes for Skills, but custom themes for later levels.
- From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects. See my second post in the thread for some elaboration.
- In pretexts, referencing the pixel counts feels. weird. I don't think it's more helpful than just saying that lemmings die if they fall too far, for example. Perhaps mention the 64 pixels thing when the ruler is introduced?
- There's some issues where for me, in the description, the hotkey says <None> even though I have a hotkey assigned. For example, go-to-next-shrugger is 8 by default, but the description prior to Big Steps Through The Snow just says <None>. Just thought I'd mention it. Also, highlight lemming is not right-click by default (as stated by the Highlights With A Safety Net pretext), it's actually Ctrl+Click.
Spoiler
Skills 1. Just Digging Into NeoLemmix - Great. I like that it clearly has spots where you should and shouldn't dig.
Skills 2. Let's Take A Bash At It! - Also great. I really like the fact you included a staircase to show that not all bashing targets are flat vertical walls. However, I'm not sure what the pillar above the staircase shows that the three pillars in the middle don't already.
Skills 3. Fence & Mine For a Diagonal Line - Good. I'd have made a stage slightly more forgiving, but it's probably fine.
Skills 4. Climb Up, Hang On, Get Along! - Another great one. I love how it demonstrates hanging from uneven ceilings and turning climbers around.
Skills 5. Block and Blow In The Snow - Good. I particularly like the the miniature puzzle at the end. A new player must figure out how to go down and turn around at the same time. For example, they might be tempted to put a blocker at the ice tip, only to realize it becomes useless when they the bomb the ice. Good learning opportunity. It's possible to complete this level without using any blockers, which might be unintended. See attachment.
Skills 6. A Float, A Glide, Puts Any Abyss Aside! - Simple but effective. I like that the player is forced to see both skills in action, since there's only 4 of each but 8 lemmings in total.
Skills 7. Building Flat and Building High - Cool, but too hard? I'd DEFINITELY let a new player get a feel for 1 bridge or 1 platformer at a time in a safe, convenient environment before asking them to chain multiple bridges together, build over water, or build through weirdly shaped terrain. It's important to master these skills ASAP, so maybe the trial by fire is warranted, but this stage definitely feels way tougher than anything else in the tier.
Skills 8. Stacks and Stones Saved Our Bones - Clever. I like that the skill counts forces you to use a stoner to block, and forces you to use a stacker at one of the upper ledges.
Skills 9. Amphibious Engineer Squad - Good. I like how it demonstrates that water can break long falls and that one disarmer can disarm multiple traps. What happens if a swimmer meets a wall, though?
Skills 10. Walking On The Cloner Cliffs - Don't like this one. The fact you can just walk the lemming to the exit and then spam clone in front of it feels really cheap. Doesn't really demonstrate what walkers or cloners can do.
Skills 11 They Can't Mash Us All! - Simple and effective. I like it.
Skills 12. Just Nuke Them! - Cool. I genuinely would not have thought to use nuke this way.
---
Objects 1. Up for a Walk? - Beautifully presented. I like (?) how it's designed to encourage use of fast forward.
Objects 2. Iron Anthill - A little overwhelming. I think the same concepts could have been taught with a smaller level. Looks fun to optimize, though.
Objects 3. Time Crime - Good. I like that it shows blockers can be used to save time rather than to avoid hazards.
Objects 4. Trap Roulette - Great. Really like the use of several themes here. Shows what different kinds of blocks and traps might look like.
Objects 5. Follow The Arrow! - Excellent and comprehensive. All four directions were covered, as well as the fact you can use bombers to go against the arrows. One of my favorites in the pack.
Objects 6. Set Your Priorities Right! - Cool. Took me a moment to realize I could assign bashers while the pit was still being dug.
Objects 7. Pick Them Up and Push Them Down - Very nice looking level. A nice introduction to its concepts, as well. Is there supposed to be a one pixel seam between the terrain and steel?
Objects 8. Split and Splat - Simple but effective. I like how it encourages the use of the ruler. The splitters are a fun touch.
Objects 9. Beam Them Over - Great. Fantastic presentation. At first, I wasn't sure about the claustrophobic digging, but I suspect you're using it to bunch the lemmings up so they don't get teleported without picking up the pickups, so it's fine. Are the pickups necessary, though? I think the level works the same if you just gave 3 builders to start with.
Objects 10. Gravity Lab - Cool. It took a couple of attempts to realize the order I needed to assign the skills and how I had to use the second builder. I like how it demonstrates that small delays can make a big difference. Is there a reason why a fencer is provided, rather than a basher? I think a basher would tempt someone to use it to bypass the splat pad, only to find out they needed to save it for the end.
Objects 11. Stop, Rewind And Go! - Tough puzzle. It does a good job of show casing pause and rewind, but it's pretty challenging for a tutorial, since it involves many different skills and the solution isn't obvious.
Objects 12. Big Steps Through The Snow - The final bridge is annoyingly precise... which is good, since it forces people to use the hotkeys. I'm really surprised at how much easier the hotkeys make building. This level single-highhandedly changed my entire playstyle!
Objects 13. Getting Into Sortings - Cute and clever. I appreciate that it works no matter which way the lemmings are walking when they fall down.
Objects 14. Highlights With A Safety Net - Don't like this one. It's odd that this is the highlight lemming tutorial, when the puzzle is instead about realizing that you can shortcut long falls using miners, and that you can build spiral staircases. Consequently, it feels out of place. More like a basic training level than a skill/object tutorial. I think spamming floaters would be fine to create a sense of 'doing two things at once', even if it makes the puzzle less interesting.
Objects 15. Night Of The Living Lems - Great. Love the theming and the fact the puzzle makes you use a few different methods of dealing with the zombies. The cloner pickup feels unnecessary since you don't really duplicate a skill with it. Maybe provide another climber instead?
Objects 16. Neutral Response - Great. I really like that this demonstrates creative ways to get ahead of the pack.
---
Basic Training 1. Tower of Training - I like that the level goes from bottom to top, rather than top to bottom. I also like that it's mostly safe for lems and has an abundance of skills, allowing for peaceful experimentation. Perfect for a first level of basic training. Floaters, diggers and miners all feel pretty useless, though. While I understand that figuring out which skills are more useful is part of the tutorial, I think some small design tweaks facilitate routes that actually use these skills. Also, I don't like the graves at the bottom of the level. It's easy for lems to get stuck between them and freeing them is more annoying than interesting.
Basic Training 2. With Minimal Efforts - Great. I enjoyed the realization that I could escape the starting area by chaining two digging skills.
Basic Training 3. Blocker Rocker - Excellent. Incredible how it demonstrates the need for pioneers and several different ways of removing blockers all in one puzzle. Using a digger in that way was new to me. One of my favourite tutorials in the pack.
Basic Training 4. Steely Halls - Great. Big fan of how this puzzle makes use of concepts from the previous puzzle. I particularly like the ending section.
Basic Training 5. Scrap The Buttons! - Tough. This stumped me for several attempts. I suspect my solution is not the intended solution. I really struggled with finding a way to prepare the path and hit both buttons without a lemming dying or getting stuck. Should probably be after Limited Release, if not later. Realizing I could get the glider to fly again by boosting it up with a builder was a really cool discovery, though.
Basic Training 6. Limited Release - Good. I like the small twist you put on freeing the blocker here. I like how you're still building on concepts introduced in previous levels.
Basic Training 7. Backup Wall - Decent. I like the visual design. Using three builders to make a wall is really precise. Took several attempts to make it work, even with frame advance. I think the ground in the starting area should be flat, because the bumps make it hard to make the wall.
Basic Training 8. The Builder Drain - Great. Seems like a good builder practice level.
Basic Training 9. Top-Down Approach - Excellent. I had no idea bashers and steel slopes worked that way. A clear demonstration of these interactions. One of my favorite levels in the pack.
Basic Training 10. Reacharound - Clever. This one stumped me because I insisted on sending my climber left first. Once I finally figured out that was wrong, it all came together. Really like how this builds on the previous puzzle.
Basic Training 11. Central Fear - Great. The fact lemmings can alternate which way they come out of the window was an unexpected surprise! The level looks intimidating, but turned out to a lot easier than it looked. I actually think this could go earlier in the level list. Directly after Steely Halls, maybe?
Basic Training 12. It's A Stretch - Good. This level is a strange mix, but each half works. I think the bottom could be improved so it isn't just three of the same action, though.
Basic Training 13. Delaying the Inevitable - Great. I feel like the temple aesthetic really suits the level layout and concept.
Basic Training 14. Chalk Walk - Also great. I'm actually surprised by how lenient you were - I placed most of my blockers pixel perfectly and ended up with a huge amount of spare time. Maybe you should shorten the pack's path a little?
Basic Training 15. The Joy of Sorting - Not a fan. While it was a fun concept like the first time, I think this is too similar to Getting Into Sortings. The first half of the puzzle is almost exactly the same. Also, as a tutorial, I'm not sure what purpose this level serves.
Basic Training 16-30 to come tomorrow~
Attached are my replays so far and the alternate (unintended?) solution to Block & Blow
QuoteFrom the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.
If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).
The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.
Quote from: namida on February 13, 2020, 06:57:47 AM
QuoteFrom the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.
If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).
The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.
Nah, I played the NL conversion of them. I'm unfamiliar with the actual original release rate. I just based the comment on how I felt.
To elaborate: In a lot of the Skills levels there is no actual danger, so release rate wouldn't impact the solution. But a low release rate means it's easier to see how mechanics work in isolation. You can see how a miner's animation digs out its tunnel without a bunch of lemmings getting in the way of it. You can see the dig/bash/mine/build zones of lemmings when you hover them without it flickering as other lemmings walk past. You can easily pick the lemmings you want to assign skills to without accidental misclicks. Things like that. My philosophy would be to err on the conservative side of release rates in early aimed-at-new-players tutorial puzzles. Reduces stress, increases clarity.
I remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.
Playing through the latest version of the pack. My feedback on the first three ranks as they are now:
Rank 1 - Skills
1-1 Intro text is scrunched vertically. Include blank lines after "Welcome to NeoLemmix!" and in between paragraphs. (This recurs on several levels, so I won't point it out every time.)
1-3 Prefer "wider tunnel" to "bigger". When the lemmings have to mine left from above the arrow terrain, it is tricky to select one going the right way without directional select, which hasn't been introduced yet. Maybe add steel on the level edge so that mining the wrong way doesn't fail the level.
1-4 I agree with DireKrow about the awkwardness of mentioning the exact fall height.
1-5 Add 5 more bombers for getting rid of leftover blockers, since the player doesn't know about nuke yet. (It's possible to solve with 6 bombers and 3 blockers, so the player would have enough bombers left anyway, but a beginner player may not solve the level optimally.)
1-8 Hyphenate "mid-air". This is a very long text; maybe cut "Until then Lemmings can still walk over it though" as this is redundant with the previous sentence.
1-11 Hyphenate "bottom-left". Replace "spawns in" with "releases"; we should respect the fiction that lemmings are cute animals we are trying to save, not just game objects. (I am averse to "hatch" as well, but this may just be because both "hatch" and "spawn" are Lix terminology.)
1-12 "Countdown" is one word.
Rank 2 - Objects & Functions
2-1 "You" is missing in "so you can look around". Maybe replace "enter pause mode" with "pause the game" to make room for it.
This level is so large and has so much decoration that fast-forward does absolutely nothing! Namida would be better able to tell you about what exactly is the cause, but this is a big problem for a level that intends to teach fast-forwarding.
2-2 Replace the full stop with a comma after "Levels can vary in height".
Intro text says "None" for clear physics mode even though I have it assigned to "C". One to take up with namida....
Maybe require only 25/30, since the middle group on the left edge can't be salvaged if the basher goes too far, and the player hasn't been introduced to timeskipping for error correction yet. (Or move this level later.)
2-3 Fun level! Easy enough that it could take the 2-2 slot if we decide to move that level up.
2-4 Any particular reason why tracks orig_16 and 17 are skipped? Not complaining, just curious :P
2-6 "Can already have", not "already can have".
2-8 Prefer "cannot" to "can't".
2-10 Really nice level! :thumbsup:
2-11 Prefer "yet" to "still".
2-12 Comma after "ten seconds". I see why this level mentions the possibility of changing your layout -- it certainly makes me wish I had a "back 5 seconds" or "back 10 seconds" hotkey for when I misjudge the long bridges! :P
2-13 Prefer "release" to "spawn", again. I remember this level, and I'm glad you simplified it -- the new version is much less confusing but still a great puzzle!
2-14 Comma after "skipping back", and move "are" to the next line. "Keep track of", not "on". Don't hyphenate "screen area".
2-16 "Safe path", not "save path". "Straight to", not "straight into". "Could theoretically", not "theoretically could" -- although I would prefer to re-word this entirely. It's not theoretical, it is actually an important part of gameplay! Something like "they may already have a path to the exit" or "they may nonetheless be able to reach the exit". Great puzzle -- took me a while to find the solution!
Rank 3 - Basic Training
3-1"Practice", not "routine". Because tracks 16 and 17 are skipped in your music rotation, this ends up with the annoying "Doggie" track. Yay.
3-2 Fun level.
3-3 Very nice showcase of blocker removal; no complaints.
3-5 The way the terrain is shaped makes removing the crowd control blocker rather fiddly. Maybe provide a couple of miners?
3-6 Feels redundant. Sure, it shows blocker removal with a digger, but we've already seen that, and that makes four blocker removal levels in a row. The beginner player would probably be itching to see some new tricks now!
3-7 Typo: "substitue". Prefer "three" to "3". Nice that this level has "O Little Town" for the music.
Lower the release rate, so the first builder has already placed some bricks so the player can judge whether the second builder is right next to them! I can do this comfortably, but I don't think a beginner could. The builder to the first of the three islands has to be placed precisely to avoid a diagonal gap into which lemmings would fall, even though this mechanic hasn't been introduced.
3-8 This could be solved with a three-builder wall, but I have other methods 8-)
3-9 Remove "instead", which seems to be a leftover from a previous formulation of this sentence.
3-10 An intro text is needed to explain multiple pick-up skills, and that gliders bounce off walls. Very nice puzzle!
3-11 Nice introduction to the double walker for releasing a blocker. This one doesn't need an intro text; it makes its point very well.
3-12 Comma after "falls off the bridge". Prefer "get past" to "get around". Should the intro text let the player know which object is the exit? The third gap doesn't actually need any stretching.
3-13 Prefer "path" to "way" and "these" to "those".
3-15 Oh, so this is where the level ended up :P
3-16 Comma after "noticed". Typo: "scrificed". Could we not use the Millas? The player won't know what's going on and will probably expect these to be some variety of lemming with special properties that hasn't been introduced yet.
Did I break this level, or were you meant to hold the crowd under the trapdoor? I had several leftover skills and saved one extra, which is okay for a tutorial puzzle, of course. The intro text suggests that you are not meant to do this but instead should let the crowd flow through the level and choose the correct skill to turn them round, which I tried first and got pretty frustrated until I saw that there was a simple way to finish the level. Overall, I'm not a fan of this one.
3-17 Nice simple introduction to the digger pit. Maybe it should be explicitly mentioned that, depending on the terrain and release rate, the second lemming may or may not slip past the digger.
3-18 Towards the end I had to cancel a platformer with a basher, which hasn't been introduced yet. Other than that, nice level.
3-19 Great introduction to its concepts, although deadly edges and building for the sole purpose of turning around on a ceiling should have been introduced before this.
3-20 Typo: "rainsing". "An much needed" should be "a much-needed".
Building to the upper staircase from the nearest step leaves another lemming with the builder, who then dies, but you need 100%. This can be circumvented by building from a higher step, but it seems a bit unfair to require a new player to work that out. Also, what on earth is the walker pick-up skill for?
3-21 "Just abuse that" should be "Just abuse the fact that". Pretty good intro level for this trick, even though it's one I always find annoying when it shows up :P
3-22 "In front" is two words. Commas before and after "for example". Diggers will only be turned around by a blocker in front of them. Maybe these two tricks should be separated into two levels?
3-23 I'm not wild about the precise timing needed to merge the crowd and the basher, but hey, I guess this is what you were teaching, and some tricks just are inherently annoying.
3-24 Wow this is hard! Firstly it's hard to spot the correct allocation of skills to make the route work at all; then you have to spot the correct place to block and compress the crowd. At first I was trying to compress them at the foot of the large wall, and I think beginner players might also have a frustrating time trying to make that idea work before giving up and looking for something else.
3-25 "Lets" should be "let's". Prefer "one" to "1". The last sentence is awkwardly phrased; I would prefer something like "Also, it is possible to assign bomber or stoner to a climber in mid-climb."
Very nice level. The hardest part was realising I needed to use the stacker-cloner at the very start; everything fell into place after that.
3-26 "In the right height" should be "at". Hyphenate "well-placed". Typo: "natutral".
Another nice level; a bit easier than the last two as there were enough cues to work out the skill allocation pretty easily. The only tough part was that the builder has to have his 11th brick touching the wall, since if he only touches it with his 12th, you can't mine in a way that the other lemmings can walk back up.
3-27 Neat. I've seen levels like this before (and made one, in the Lix community pack) but using a fencer rather than a miner improves things greatly, as you can use the skill shadow to judge exactly where to place the builders.
3-28 Discussed on discord. I had no problem here, but it needs an intro text stating that cloned builders/miners have a skill shadow.
3-29 "More interesting" should be "most interesting". Hyphenate "mid-stroke". Excellent introduction to this concept.
Quote from: Proxima on February 13, 2020, 06:07:20 PMIntro text says "None" for clear physics mode even though I have it assigned to "C". One to take up with namida....
After some just-digging, I realised why this is. Your intro text includes "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics:1]", where the "1" means that your clear physics hotkey is set to hold-down rather than toggle. Since the user
could have separate hotkeys for clear physics hold-down and toggle, I guess it makes sense that this functionality exists, but I would suggest that "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics]" should show any clear physics mode hotkey the user has.
I suspect DireKrow's issue with the "next shrugger" hotkey has a similar cause, though it's harder for me to investigate that one as I don't have any hotkey assigned to that.
Thanks for the feedback! :thumbsup:
Especially feedback from new players is quite valuable here.
My Comments:
Quote- From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects. See my second post in the thread for some elaboration.
That or the overall lemming count can be adjusted a little. Although getting the player used to higher RRs is a thing that should be done early.
Quote- In pretexts, referencing the pixel counts feels. weird. I don't think it's more helpful than just saying that lemmings die if they fall too far, for example. Perhaps mention the 64 pixels thing when the ruler is introduced?
Quote1-4 I agree with DireKrow about the awkwardness of mentioning the exact fall height. This is the first level where the player needs to understand they can scroll to see more of the level; should this be mentioned?
It may be not more helpful for everyone, but I do think mention the exact mechanic even this early on is only fair and it doesn't do harm in my opinion.
Quote- There's some issues where for me, in the description, the hotkey says <None> even though I have a hotkey assigned. For example, go-to-next-shrugger is 8 by default, but the description prior to Big Steps Through The Snow just says <None>. Just thought I'd mention it. Also, highlight lemming is not right-click by default (as stated by the Highlights With A Safety Net pretext), it's actually Ctrl+Click.
The <None> cases are probably something for namida to check. The standard layouts should at least assign the keys introduced here.My mistake will be fixed.
QuoteSkills 2. Let's Take A Bash At It! - Also great. I really like the fact you included a staircase to show that not all bashing targets are flat vertical walls. However, I'm not sure what the pillar above the staircase shows that the three pillars in the middle don't already.
The answer is simple: Repetition. It's one of the best way to let lessons sink in. Rpeat until something burns into the players mind.
QuoteSkills 5. Block and Blow In The Snow - Good. I particularly like the the miniature puzzle at the end. A new player must figure out how to go down and turn around at the same time. For example, they might be tempted to put a blocker at the ice tip, only to realize it becomes useless when they the bomb the ice. Good learning opportunity. It's possible to complete this level without using any blockers, which might be unintended. See attachment.
That is unintended, yes. I think I will do a little fix even if this is probably not the way people solve it the first time.
QuoteSkills 7. Building Flat and Building High - Cool, but too hard? I'd DEFINITELY let a new player get a feel for 1 bridge or 1 platformer at a time in a safe, convenient environment before asking them to chain multiple bridges together, build over water, or build through weirdly shaped terrain. It's important to master these skills ASAP, so maybe the trial by fire is warranted, but this stage definitely feels way tougher than anything else in the tier.
I can put it a few places later, but I especially don't want a completely safe environment here. I think it's an extremely important lesson that losing lemmings is ok when the save requirement allows it and players should learn it as early as possible.
QuoteSkills 9. Amphibious Engineer Squad - Good. I like how it demonstrates that water can break long falls and that one disarmer can disarm multiple traps. What happens if a swimmer meets a wall, though?
It turns, I could implement that lesson.
Quote
Skills 10. Walking On The Cloner Cliffs - Don't like this one. The fact you can just walk the lemming to the exit and then spam clone in front of it feels really cheap. Doesn't really demonstrate what walkers or cloners can do.
I willl make a slight modification that you can't just clone next to the exit. But I won't show more of the skills just yet. Cloners and walkers, if used to their fully extent are a can of worms better to open a tiny bit later step by step in multiple levels focussing on one or a few more aspects. Trust me there.
QuoteObjects 2. Iron Anthill - A little overwhelming. I think the same concepts could have been taught with a smaller level. Looks fun to optimize, though.
That's totally intended. Every section is completely safe and therefore there is no rush. But players need to experience and handle larger vertical levels. So you should take your time at the start and form a plan for one section after the other.
QuoteObjects 7. Pick Them Up and Push Them Down - Very nice looking level. A nice introduction to its concepts, as well. Is there supposed to be a one pixel seam between the terrain and steel?
Well, that's a fix. :P
QuoteObjects 9. Beam Them Over - Great. Fantastic presentation. At first, I wasn't sure about the claustrophobic digging, but I suspect you're using it to bunch the lemmings up so they don't get teleported without picking up the pickups, so it's fine. Are the pickups necessary, though? I think the level works the same if you just gave 3 builders to start with.
They are indeed not nessesary. They should just represent some breadcrumps you need to pick up on the way.
Quote
Objects 10. Gravity Lab - Cool. It took a couple of attempts to realize the order I needed to assign the skills and how I had to use the second builder. I like how it demonstrates that small delays can make a big difference. Is there a reason why a fencer is provided, rather than a basher? I think a basher would tempt someone to use it to bypass the splat pad, only to find out they needed to save it for the end.
The fencer is just for skill variety, nothing more.
QuoteObjects 11. Stop, Rewind And Go! - Tough puzzle. It does a good job of show casing pause and rewind, but it's pretty challenging for a tutorial, since it involves many different skills and the solution isn't obvious.
That's the problem of the topic: Anything requiring rewind is not tutorial easy and just having builders be assigned to everything is not that exciting at all.
That's also a point, even if this is only the object rank I do intend getting slowly more difficult. The levels should require some thinking in my opinion even if they are just a tutorial.
How long did it take you to solve the level if I may ask? That would be a good indicator for me to see if that was still in acceptable territory or indeed too hard.
QuoteObjects 12. Big Steps Through The Snow - The final bridge is annoyingly precise... which is good, since it forces people to use the hotkeys. I'm really surprised at how much easier the hotkeys make building. This level single-highhandedly changed my entire playstyle!
Yes, that's the reason for it. You really want to use those hotkeys. I always have my fingers on pause and fast forward for example.
QuoteObjects 14. Highlights With A Safety Net - Don't like this one. It's odd that this is the highlight lemming tutorial, when the puzzle is instead about realizing that you can shortcut long falls using miners, and that you can build spiral staircases. Consequently, it feels out of place. More like a basic training level than a skill/object tutorial. I think spamming floaters would be fine to create a sense of 'doing two things at once', even if it makes the puzzle less interesting.
That's a surprise for me. I guess this is a case where things appear so trivial that you don't even realise that they need explaining. Spamming floaters is a bit boring though. Would a few diggers on top of the miners help you here as well?
QuoteThe cloner pickup feels unnecessary since you don't really duplicate a skill with it
Let's just say that this sentence is not correct. ;) It is very often the case in lemmings that you just clone for the extra lemming or the direction change.
Quote
Basic Training 1. Tower of Training - I like that the level goes from bottom to top, rather than top to bottom. I also like that it's mostly safe for lems and has an abundance of skills, allowing for peaceful experimentation. Perfect for a first level of basic training. Floaters, diggers and miners all feel pretty useless, though. While I understand that figuring out which skills are more useful is part of the tutorial, I think some small design tweaks facilitate routes that actually use these skills. Also, I don't like the graves at the bottom of the level. It's easy for lems to get stuck between them and freeing them is more annoying than interesting.
Get stuck, free yourself. That is the reason the graves are there. There are so many cases in levels where your rodents get stuck exactly like this, I just want to prepare you again here, even if that means being a little annoying. ;)
QuoteBasic Training 5. Scrap The Buttons! - Tough. This stumped me for several attempts. I suspect my solution is not the intended solution. I really struggled with finding a way to prepare the path and hit both buttons without a lemming dying or getting stuck. Should probably be after Limited Release, if not later. Realizing I could get the glider to fly again by boosting it up with a builder was a really cool discovery, though.
I agree, will move this.
QuoteBasic Training 7. Backup Wall - Decent. I like the visual design. Using three builders to make a wall is really precise. Took several attempts to make it work, even with frame advance. I think the ground in the starting area should be flat, because the bumps make it hard to make the wall.
I will flatten a hill then.
QuoteBasic Training 11. Central Fear - Great. The fact lemmings can alternate which way they come out of the window was an unexpected surprise! The level looks intimidating, but turned out to a lot easier than it looked. I actually think this could go earlier in the level list. Directly after Steely Halls, maybe?
I think you pointed me at a good swapping candidate for the button level here. ;)
Quote
Basic Training 14. Chalk Walk - Also great. I'm actually surprised by how lenient you were - I placed most of my blockers pixel perfectly and ended up with a huge amount of spare time. Maybe you should shorten the pack's path a little?
Well, I do intended that no blockers needs to be perfect. That can add up quite a bit. You will encounter enough precision during later levels.
QuoteBasic Training 15. The Joy of Sorting - Not a fan. While it was a fun concept like the first time, I think this is too similar to Getting Into Sortings. The first half of the puzzle is almost exactly the same. Also, as a tutorial, I'm not sure what purpose this level serves.
Purpose: Repetiton, training. No new lesson here.
QuoteI remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.
Reading this, maybe instead of lowring the release rate, I should introduce the pause button earlier on. I think that's a good idea. Normally when you look at/think about/freshly enter a level you should hit pause. If you are not looking diectly at your lemmings the pause button should be on. Pause THE essential button of the game. It should come as early as level 1 or 2.
Quote2-4 Any particular reason why tracks orig_16 and 17 are skipped? Not complaining, just curious
I habe no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P
Also thanks to Proxima for the grammar related suff. :)
Note to myself: Mention skill shadows a bit more. :P
I will either implement these changes with introduction of the 4th rank or a bit earlier.
Quote from: IchoTolot on February 13, 2020, 08:44:53 PMI have no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P
The culprit is the music.nxmi file, which is missing the lines TRACK orig_16 and TRACK orig_17. You can add these back if it's not deliberate. Though 16 is one of the more annoying tracks, so I won't complain if you leave this unfixed! :P
Second half of
Basic Training:
Spoiler
Basic Training 16 - Hidden Crystalline Temple - Rather tough. I ended up skipping the puzzle and coming back to it later. The main herdles were: (A) realizing that the two lems that slip past a stacker can be used as a pioneer and a stoner sacrifice, and (B) that you should put the lemmings in a holding pattern that you can break out of it using the builders later in the puzzle. I think the pretext needs to be rephrased, because it's misleading. After I read it, I assumed the puzzle would include lemmings dying and instead would be about trying to get your stackers ahead of the crowd so they would have time to put up their walls. Consequently, it took me a while to realize that I had to contain the crowd rather than letting them roam free. I think the pre-text should maybe focus more on how you can use slow construction skills to purposefully create pioneers.
Basic Training 17 - Dig The Trench! - Solid. Not much else to say.
Basic Training 18 - Sandy Danger - Excellent! I like how it's open-ended, but all of the solutions reveal something new and subtle. One of my favourites in the pack.
Basic Training 19 - Steps and Pixels - Great. I was really wondering about this, so I'm glad this level was included. The choice of theme was smart for this.
Basic Training 20 - Stepblocked - Great. I like that it builds on the previous puzzle. Typo in the pretext: "rainsing" should be "raising".
Basic Training 21 - The Steepest Slope - Decent. I'd prefer a different tileset for this, because the dark patches on the crystals make it hard to see how deep/far you've dug. I had to redo my tunnel a couple of times because of that. It works as a puzzle, but I really hope this technique isn't that commonly used, because it's pretty tedious.
Basic Training 22 - A Sudden Change In Direction - Great. I appreciate that the route is so clearly indicated in this one.
Basic Training 23 - Concentrated Force - Good. Nice escalation of a previous idea.
Basic Training 24 - Blocked In Your Favor - Tough. Took me a while to figure out how to get the two pickups. Then it took me a while to realize there was a ledge on the right-hand side of the level that I could use to stack my lemmings up. Can you make that ledge more obvious, perhaps? Now that I know the solution, I think this is a great puzzle. I really like how it incorporates multiple concepts from previous levels.
Basic Training 25 - Double Down! - Great. It was a lot to take in, but the solution was so satisfying to watch! I found a way to save a cloner, as we discussed on the discord (just mine left without cloning at the end), but my replay uses the 'intended' solution anyway.
Basic Training 26 - Combine & Conquer - Also great. Never thought to use construction skills this way before, so thanks for introducing it.
Basic Training 27 - Fancy Fencer - Excellent. The fact you used the bookcase theme was really smart, because you can use it as a grid along with the items on the shelves to line up your diggers and builders with the fencing shadow. One of my favourites in the pack.
Basic Training 28 - Equal Distributon - We talked about this one on discord. It's pretty brutal, but also ingenious and one of my favourite puzzle concepts in the pack. A pretext should probably mention that cloners should sometimes be delayed and/or you might have the right idea on how to solve a puzzle, but you need to change your positioning.
Basic Training 29 - Special Staircase - Great. Had no idea you could interrupt digging skills mid-animation to do those sorts of things.
Basic Training 30 - Stepping Up To The Stars - Great test of the skills you were taught in the previous puzzle. Lots of great tiny lessons.
Attached are the replays of my first successful solutions
I will include fixes based on your feedback when I finished rank 4.
Sorry for being slow here, but right now exams and other stuff are also requiring some attention and the last 2 months or so I've been lacking a bit in the ideas+inspiration departement as well. :P
V 0.15 is out!
Rank 3 got split up into 2 ranks: The first 14 level were punt into the new rank 3 and the other 16 were put into the new rank 5.
New levels:
- 2 03 (introduction of deadly level sides)
- 3 03 (Builders hitting heads)
- 3 08 (Spiral staircases)
- 3 09 (Training: Blockers and spiral staircases)
- 3 15 (Shimmier + walker)
- 3 16 (Training: Shimmier + walker + glider)
- 4 05 (Teleporter does not reset distance fallen)
- 4 06 (Builder + platformer turn trick)
- 4 07 (Training: Teleporter does not reset distance fallen, Builder + platformer turn trick)
- Rank 5 "Advanced Training" has been added with 19 new levels.
Changes:
- A bunch of spelling errors.
- Music rotation includes orig 16+17 now.
- 1 01 (Text mentiones Pause right away now)
- 1 03 (Reduced RR and lem count)
- 1 05 (Backroute fix, +5 bombers)
- 1 07 (Text mentions that lemming losses are acceptable)
- 1 09 (Demonstrates now that swimmers turn if they swim into a wall)
- 1 10 (Changed exit area so that lems can walk out to the right now)
- 2 01 (reduced decoration)
- 2 03 <--> 2 04
- 2 08 (fixed visual error)
- 2 09 (Text mentiones now that splitters cannot be deactivated)
- 2 15 (Does not require a spiral staircase anymore, -8 builders)
- 3 06 <--> 3 14
- 3 10 (Reduced RR, flattened starting area)
- 3 13 (Test now mentiones multiple pick-up skils and that gliders bounce off walls)
- 3 14 (Made blocker spot clearer now and added steel)
- 3 17 (Widened 3rd gap by 1 pixel)
- 4 02 (Text now mentiones that the crowd should be contained)
- 4 03 (Text now mentiones that the digger holding pit can be affected by RR and terrain)
- 4 13 (New helper pre text)
- 4 14 (Backroute fix)
- 4 17 (Text now provides more hints)
Awesome :thumbsup: I'll play through the new version from the start and make notes.
Rank 1
1-1 "even feel overwhelmed" should be "ever".
I appreciate the need to let the player know about pause, but I feel it's really important for the very first text the new player sees not to be an imposing wall, so I want to find some way to fit in a blank line after "...assigning them skills". The next paragraph is really fluffy for very little information, so that would be where I'd look first. For starters, "The first rank of the introduction pack aims to teach you about these skills" is all fluff and can be cut completely. "Each level may have a different selection of skills and limit to the number of each you may assign" is unnecessarily precise -- yes, some levels have identical skillsets, and yes, some levels have the same skills but different numbers -- but the aim here isn't to ward against every possible "oh, you didn't say X" nitpick, it's to communicate to the new player in as friendly a way as possible. So I'd say something like "Each level has a different selection and number of skills", and then I'd take another hard look and seriously consider cutting "and number".
1-2 (and other texts) still need blank lines adding. You mentioned on discord you are aware of this, so I won't harp on it :P
"Hovering with it" should be "hovering the mouse".
1-4 Cut "Then they fall down again". I know you love to be really precise about your explanations, but the result is far too much text, so I think we need to be really diligent about making cuts whenever we can.
1-6 "the lemming it has been assigned to" -> "a lemming". The glider sentence could be reworded as something like "The Glider is similar, but the lemming glides down in a diagonal line."
1-7 I know the builder is a crucial skill, but this text is huge and we really need to find a cut somewhere. Last time I suggested cutting out the second description of the clicking sound, but that is useful information, so I think even better is to cut the first description of the clicking sound, then after the platformer description, say that both skills have warning clicks.
"be not discouraged" -> "do not be discouraged"
1-8 "a bit related to" -> "similar to"
1-9 "As the Swimmer" -> "Like the Swimmer"
Rank 2
2-1 Remove explanation of pause, now that this is covered in 1-1.
Same problem as before: FF has no observable effect. I tried turning off the high quality minimap, and with it off, I could notice a slight difference when using FF, but this is definitely not what you want for a level intended to introduce FF. Also, even if everything were miraculously fixed and FF was just as good here as on a normal level, the level is so huge that FF wouldn't do much to stop it being tedious. Either introduce 10-second skip here, or just make the level smaller.
2-2 "upper right side" -> "upper right"
2-3 Spelling: "immediately". Mention the top and bottom as well as the sides.
2-4 Remove "like bashers, diggers etc". Still has the issue where the intro text has "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics:1]", so it will only display the hotkey if the user has it set to toggle. Remove the :1 at the end.
2-5 Too much fluff here. I would cut the last two sentences.
2-11 We don't need the technical details, so I would just say "Updrafts prevent lemmings falling through them from splatting."
2-17 "Grey" (UK spelling) is used here but "gray" (US spelling) in an earlier level. I would suggest sticking with one or the other, but perhaps it was deliberate so as not to give preference to either side? :P
Rank 3
3-1 "It should also" -> "They should also"
Oh great, this is going to have "Doggie" once the Jumper intro level is added... unless more than one level will be added in ranks 1 and 2? I guess eventually they will be, since it seems likely another skill will be added before the final version.
3-2 Could use an intro text reminding the player to check CPM because steel may look different in a particular style.
3-3 Good level, although the intro is a little misleading. Platformers don't stop if they hit their head.
3-8 Just noting that this is another level that will be affected by the decision to use UK or US English for the pack. Typo: "substitue".
3-10 "Substitue" again.
3-15 "Immediately" again.
V 0.16 is out!
A quick update to fix impossible levels after the 12.9.0 NeoLemmix update.
This new version (or higher) is required to be able to solve all levels using NeoLemmix version 12.9.0 or higher!
Fixed levels:
- 5 07 (the Shimmier jump next to a wall + glider -> getting onto that wall trick is now impossible, the level can now be solved without it, skillset and intro text were adjusted)
- 5 08 (some terrain changes and a new intro text now mentions the possibility to use a shimmier jump to gain extra height for a glider)
Is there any more feedback apart from the things Proxima posted about the first 3 ranks?
If not I would soon prepare the next patch addressing the things he posted.
When that's done I will move over to create jumper introduction and training levels.
Rank 4
4-6 Comma after "bridge". "a brick" -> "one brick".
The sentence beginning "That's because the builder" is extremely fluffy. Maybe something like this: "That's because the builder places his next brick on top of the platformer, making him bump against it."
4-9 "an much needed" -> "a much-needed"
4-10 "switch into a digger" -> "switch to a digger"
4-14 Typo: "non-permant"
4-17 "do also have" -> "also have"
Rank 5
5-1 "the last ranks" -> "the last few ranks"
5-3 "canceling" -> "cancelling"
5-4 "like" -> "around"; "site" -> "side"
5-7 "being build" -> "being built"
Attached is a full set of replays done in 12.9.2. The only level I was unable to solve was the very last, "Victory Lap". A couple of the levels have multiple replays, as discussed below.
The level quality is overall very high. I have no broad critiques. Advanced Training is a pretty hard for someone brand new to the game, but it IS 'advanced training'...
Some things I found, most of which I already told you about on the discord (and you may have already fixed):
- The first time a level with a Millas style is selected, such as Basic Training 2 "Hidden Crystaline Temple", it throws a "Invalid Pointer Operation. Falling back to default lemming sprites" error, since those styles currently lack Jumper sprites.
- Skills 5 "Block and Blow In The Snow" can still be completed without using any blockers. See the second replay.
- Objects & Functions 15 "Highlights With A Safety Net", if you assign a miner immediately out of the left hatch, you can complete the entire bridge on the right without ever having to multitask, defeating the lesson of the level. The replay I provided doesn't quite demonstrate this... I do the miner, but then proceed with the rest of the puzzle on the left afterwards anyway so the replay didn't take as long.
- Basic Training 1 8 "Spiraling Out of Control" can be completed without using any blockers. Seem unintended, since using blockers are mentioned in the pretext. See the second replay.
- Basic Training 2 9 "Stepblocked" can be completed without using the walker pickup, as in the replay.
- Advanced Training 12 "A Different Kind of Space" has a couple of backroutes, as we discussed on discord a while back. See the replays provided.
Be sure to check the other Advanced replays too in case I backrouted without realizing it.
EDIT: Solved Victory Lap too! Added the replay to the end.
V 0.17 is out!
Changes:
- A lot of addressed spelling errors and formating of pre-level texts.
- 1 05 (Hopefully these terrain changes will now enforce the use of blockers)
- 2 01 (Levelsize culled by 25%, hopefully this now runs smoother)
- 2 15 (The left side is now way more dangerous and requires more attention, miners substituted with bashers, + 3 builders, RR decreased, -5 save req, -5 floaters)
- 3 08 (The right ceiling has been lifted so that the trick should now be enforced)
- 4 09 (Adjusted the left staircase so that now only 1 starting area for the builder does the trick, removed the walker pick-up)
- 5 03 (Added some steel)
- 5 12 (Removed some ramps, quite a few skills are pick-ups now, added a turbine+fire)
- 5 19 (Made the upper wall thicker, a lot of skills are pick-ups now not only because of backroutes but also to reduce entropy by a bit)
Next patch will be the jumper update where I will add tutorials and trick lessons related to the new skill! (and of course address further errors that you find ;P)
oh Icholotot I didn't even know you had an introduction pack so I downloaded this. As this is an intropack I will solve this on my own. no needed replays from you at this time. but thanks. I really enjoy your packs above others because you know your lemmings. hopefully this pack will continue this.
I'll post all replays when I'm completely finished, but I'm going talk about stuff now before I forget what the comments I had were.
It's been a while since I looked at this pack to see how it was coming along, but I've finally played through it again.
Objects & Functions Lv. 15 - Highlists With A Safety Net
While clearly intended to introduce lemming highlighting, it certainly doesn't require it (like most of the levels that introduce the convenience features; not much that can be done about that). However, since the save state isn't very helpful in this level anyway (not sure where a good place to mention it; it would take a very specific type of level to really make it all that useful, I think), it might be worth replacing the note about that with a different convenience tool that's helpful on this type of level - replay insert mode. This is what I used to solve the level.
Basic Training 1 Lv. 7 - Limited Release
The most obvious solution here, at least to me, uses an un-introduced trick - specifically, crowd containment with digger+builder. I was wondering it a conscious choice had been made to allow the player to figure it out on their own since the bit about builders turning lemmings around had been recently introduced, but then this trick was formally introduced in a later level, so apparently that's not it.
Currently about halfway through the pack; there's some stuff I think probably should have been introduced by now (mostly regarding cloners) but it's possible I haven't gotten there yet, so I'll hold off on discussing it for now.
Comments on Dullstar's comments:
Basic Training 1 Lv. 7 - Limited Release
Spoiler
The problem is that when you don't want to give the exact ammount of builders the digger pit will always be an alternative --- unless the platform of the starting area is only like 6 pixels thin.
I think a thin starting area is the best way to prevent the digger pit.
Objects & Functions Lv. 15 - Highlists With A Safety Net
Spoiler
All levels with convenience features don't require them. They should just make the level easier.
I personally used save states in this and found it helpful - right before entering dangerous area with the left group. I can see that the insert replay feature can be very helpful here as well, but I still think it's better to boundle this with the general replay feature.
QuoteCurrently about halfway through the pack; there's some stuff I think probably should have been introduced by now (mostly regarding cloners) but it's possible I haven't gotten there yet, so I'll hold off on discussing it for now.
Stuff will be coming, I just can't introduce everything at once. There are things that have to wait in line.
I also wanted to show off several of the basic colner situations in that specific training level, therefore I first introduced more basic/classic stuff of the other skills. ---> You need to train the skills first before you throw the cloner interaction on top of them. I think the cloner is a very big field with many possibilities and often underestimated in it's complexity.
V 0.18 is out!
New jumper levels:
- 1 11 (Basic jumper introduction)
- 3 10 (jumper+climber, jumper over blocker)
- 3 11 (training)
- 4 05 (jumper+shimmier, jumper + one way field)
- 4 06 (jumper skill interruptions, jumper+glider)
- 4 07 (training)
- 5 06 (jumper+cloner)
- 5 07 (training)
Backroute fixes:
- 3 07 (made the starting platform thinner to prevent a simple digger pit containment)
I bet I made more spelling and other errors again, so be sure to post some feedback! :)
Since I'm currently stumped real badly in United, I decided to come back to this pack and try out the newest version, as well as to give feedback. I been meaning to give you some feedback for the levels in this pack, but I haven't gotten around to doing so until now due to solving United. I think it was forgotten to state that levels after the new levels were put into the pack were moved by 1 position further. Thus, my replays for Skills 12 still passed the mass replay checker even though they don't solve the "new level" in its position that resulted from the new jumper level in Skill 11. As a result, the Skills rank now has 13 levels instead of 12. In this case, the replays for Skills 12 is for Skills 13, but since that's too chaotic, I just decided to remove the old Skills 12 replays and resolve both Skills 12 and Skills 13 by scratch, but they're both really quick and are over in 5 seconds, so not a problem.
edit: Ugh, just found out that I could had used the text file from the mass replay checker I ran a few days ago for the pack to match up the replays! Man, all that unnecessary time wasted resolving when I had already completed the pack from a few months ago and I thought I couldn't find the replays. :forehead: Well, at least I know for next time now so I'll be using that to send the remaining replays for the last two ranks. I should have them, I just need to match them up and change the file names. Still, it was annoying finding the right replays for each level due to how a lot of the levels have changed positions due to new levels being added to the pack.
Feedback for Skills Rank
Skills 1 -
Just Digging Into Neolemmix I like how the title is a nod to the very first original Lemmings Fun 1 level. Regarding the pretext, I don't like the way the last paragraph is written. Perhaps a better wording is something like, after the colon, change "Press <Middle-click> <P> <F11>" to "Pause the level by pressing the middle-button, the P key, or F11 key." This is a series of 3 items, so commas are needed. The rest of the paragraph is fine.
Skills 2 -
Let's Take a Bash at It! In the pre-text, you mentioned "as with diggers, the basher stops when there is no more terrain in front of it." Yet, you didn't mention in the pre-text of the previous level that diggers stop when there's no more terrain. Perhaps you can add that? At the same time, it might cause the text to not look as nice, and I'm not sure if it will still make it all fit.
Also, the skill shadow shows when hovering the mouse over a lemming AND when the skill is selected, so that needs to be added somewhere in the 3rd paragraph. Wording could be a bit better, like maybe, "In the last level, with the digger skill selected, you may have noticed a gray skill shadow indicating the effect of the skill while hovering the mouse over a lemming." Since skill shadows was mentioned, perhaps you can mention that it also happens with bashers for this pre-text. However, since it does get redundant mentioning skill shadows for the other skills, maybe not and just mention that the skill shadows show when the skill is selected in addition to hovering the mouse over a lemming.
Skills 4 -
Climb Up, Hang On, Get Along! "Climbers can climb straight walls" - Take out the word "can." For the shimmiers paragraph, I would mention that if they encounter the 2 pixels or more that they fall straight down. So maybe the sentence can read, "If they are successful, they go along the ceiling until they reach a two or more pixel height difference, where they will fall straight down."
Skills 5 -
Block and Blow in the Snow The level can still be completed with just 1 blocker. For the pre-text, since the last sentence of the first paragraph is a fragment, you can combine it with the previous sentence so that it reads "They do their duty until the very end, like when they are exploded by the the bomber skill, for example!"
Skills 6 -
A Float, a Glide, Puts Any Abyss Aside! In the pre-text, I would also mention that a lemming cannot be assigned both a floater and a glider. For comedic effect and not really needed, "Try all you want, it's just not possible." Otherwise, no other problems in it.
Skills 8 -
Stacks and Stones Saved Our Bones I would mention that stackers make a vertical wall of 8 bricks. So, the sentence should read, "Stackers create a vertical wall of 8 bricks right in front of them."
Skills 9 -
Amphibious Engineer Squad Remove period, lowercase "unless." Also, instead of "inactive" maybe "harmless" is a better word, and I would mention that it becomes harmless "once the disarmer starts its task," so the sentence should read "Disarming a trap takes a few seconds, but the trap immediately becomes harmless once the disarmer starts its task." Or instead of "task," perhaps "job" can be used instead.
Skills 10 -
Walking on The Cloner Cliffs Change "to" to "in." Also, maybe a sentence like, "When assigned to a blocker, the blocker will resume walking in the direction it was walking before it was assigned a blocker." However, since blockers aren't given in the level, perhaps we can just take out the information on releasing blockers with walkers.
Skills 11 -
Jumping Lem Flash Good jumper introduction level. This is the very first level I have ever played in NL that has the jumper skill, so honestly I'm quite surprised at how high and far jumpers go with a single skill assignment. For pre-text, in the second paragraph add a comma after "arc." Similarly, in the third paragraph add a comma after "jump." In the same paragraph, immediatly is a misspelling. The correct spelling is "immediately." "infront" is not a word and should be separated by a space. Also, add a comma after "him."
Skills 12 -
They Can't Mash Us All! The nuke level was previously here, but now it's this level. The first sentence can probably be changed to, "You may have noticed a number above the + and - signs in the bottom-left of the skill bar." After all, the release rate is mentioned in the sentence afterwards, and the way it is now it seems to say that the + and - signs themselves are the RR. That's not correct. The number itself is the RR/spawn rate.
Also, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to, "Every level has a starting release rate which you cannot go under."
Feedback for Objects and Functions
Objects and Functions 1 -
Up For a Walk? Add a comma after <Middle-Click> and a comma after <P>. Also, add "and" after the comma after <P>.
Objects and Functions 2 -
Time Crime Second sentence - not true anymore since the newer NL versions simply allow lemmings to not exit anymore after time runs out. So, we'll need to change that sentence a bit. Also, add a comma after "point," add a comma after "detours," and add a comma after "things."
Objects and Functions 3 -
Index Error Out of Bounds Take out period after "deadly" and put a colon instead. Also, take out period after "immediately," and put a comma instead, and so lowercase "so."
Objects and Functions 5 -
Trap Roulette Definitely haven't seen any of these traps before. I wonder who made this tileset. For the pre-text, change "into" to "in." Also, maybe the sentence can read, "One-way fields turn around lemmings in the direction indicated when they walk into it." Partially correct, since if the lemmings are already in the correct direction they will simply walk past it instead of turn around, so maybe another sentence after it saying, "Otherwise, they will walk past it if they're already walking in the direction indicated." Then again, there's no possibility that lemmings can go past the one-way field in this level, so maybe that sentence isn't needed.
Objects and Functions 6 -
Follow the Arrow! Take out "here" and capitalize "bashers."
Objects and Functions 9 -
Split and Splat Add a comma after "ruler" before "it is deadly." Also, add a comma after "it" before the word "then."
Objects and Functions 10 -
Beam Them Up Excellent level that definitely encourages use of CPM, not unless the player is willing to endure trial and error and possibly get frustrated whenever the wrong teleporter is chosen. Recognisable is a misspelling. It should be "recognizable."
Objects and Functions 11 -
Gravity Lab I like this level! It clearly demonstrates the differences of the floater, glider, and a normal lemming when they each interact with updrafts. It is somewhat a tricky level, but luckily there's only 3 lemmings and enforces the use of a floater in an updraft just to "delay," not because it won't survive without it, so that the normal lemming has enough time to bridge the first gap before the floater can fall into the liquid pit.
Objects and Functions 13 -
Big Steps Through the Snow I use the comma and periods more frequently than the minus key, but this is just personal preference. The comma rewinds 5 seconds, while the period forwards 5 seconds. Also, I use { key more, which goes back to the last skill assigned before the key was pressed.
Objects and Functions 14 -
Getting Into Sorting Great puzzle! Not too easy, but also not too difficult. Just the right difficulty.
Objects and Functions 15 -
Highlights With a Safety Net I only used the highlight lemming feature once on this level. I don't think the level can be changed to really enforce its use fully after the third builder assignment for the long bridge. In any case, it's still nice to mention it just so players know it's there and available if they want to make use of it.
Objects and Functions 16 -
Night of the Living Lems Not too easy, but at the same time not a very hard level either. Since there is an entrance that spawns only zombies, I wonder if this is worth mentioning in the pre-text. At the same time, it's already completely filled up, so maybe not.
Objects and Functions 17 -
Neutral Response Nice neutral lemmings puzzle to end the rank! For the pre-text, I would put a period after "them" but before "otherwise." Due to the period, capitalize "otherwise." Just like the previous level, I wonder if it should be mentioned there is also an entrance that spawns just neutral lemmings.
Feedback for Basic Training 1 Rank
Basic Training 1 01 - Tower of Training Nice any way you want level to start off the rank!
Basic Training 1 02 - With Minimal Efforts Another great puzzle!
Basic Training 1 03 - Headbumper Remove "Although," capitalize "in," change "platformer" to "platformer's," and add a comma after "case." Finally, add a comma after "steel."
Basic Training 1 04 - Blocker Rocker Excellent puzzle! Demonstrates all points mentioned in the pre-text at least once well. Only thing is add a comma after "example."
Basic Training 1 05 - Steely Halls Another nice any way you want puzzle!
Basic Training 1 08 - Spiraling Out of Control Here, it definitely should be mentioned that builders will continue building in the other direction when it hits a blocker, even though it's not required to solve the level.
Basic Training 1 10 - PARKOUR! More fun with the jumper. Excellent puzzle! Only thing is add a comma after "wall" before "then" and add a comma after "this" but before "and."
Basic Training 1 11 - The Guardian I wonder if there should be pre-text here mentioning that the jumper skill can be used as many times as needed on the same lemming "to help isolate a worker lemming and get him far ahead of the crowd to forge a safe path." At least that seems to be the intention here for this level.
Basic Training 1 12 - Backup Wall Remove comma after "walls." For "cover up tunnels," perhaps "seal up" is better, at least it sounds and looks better to me. Maybe the sentence could be, "Builders are also useful to seal up tunnels so that the tunnel-making lemming ends up separated from the crowd."
Basic Training 1 13 - Top-Down Approach Nice puzzle! Add a comma after "slope" and after "ceiling."
Basic Training 1 15 - Reacharound Another great puzzle! I think what will surprise players is the part where the shimmier gives up due to touching the gray pillar with his feet rather than encountering a 2 pixel or greater with his hands mentioned in the pre-text for the shimmier introduction level. At least that caught me by surprise. So, I would suggest lowering the pillar so that it doesn't happen or simply get rid of it. Players can simply press spacebar repeatedly to skip ahead rather than watch the shimmier go all the way across. Also, I would probably change the last sentence to read, "They will just bounce off and glide the other way and not just simply fall down after hitting a wall."
Basic Training 1 16 - Scrap the Buttons! Tricky puzzle due to the limited skillset, but not overly hard
Basic Training 1 17 - Airdrop Incoming! Great puzzle! Add a comma after "gliders."
Basic Training 1 20 - Delaying the Inevitable Your pillar Reunion level from Rank 2 could had done well as a delaying training level too, but then again what fun would it be to reuse levels from your other packs? Also, imo this level works way better as a delaying training one.
Basic Training 1 21 - Chalk Walk Wow, what a great designed level! Great puzzle too!
I will post feedback for the last two ranks next time, as it's already really late where I am.
Thanks for the replays and feedback will implement changes accordingly when I'm preparing the next patch. :)
Comments:
Quote<Middle-click> <P> <F11>" to "Pause the level by pressing the middle-button, the P key, or F11 key." This is a series of 3 items, so commas are needed. The rest of the paragraph is fine.
Add a comma after <Middle-Click> and a comma after <P>. Also, add "and" after the comma after <P>.
Ok, here some explanation is needed. I don't have any input to the displaying of <Middle-click> <P> <F11> as this is a special command.
I can let NL display EVERY key a user has binded towards a fuction. This way it doesn't matter what keys a user uses for a function, as the pre-text will always show the correct keys.
<Key> <Key> is just the automated format for that function. You really want to avoid any unsessesary ",", "and" and "or" as the text should fit inside 1 row as I have no way to include a linebreak inside a keylist.
QuoteYet, you didn't mention in the pre-text of the previous level that diggers stop when there's no more terrain.
I think I even had that, but it was decided to throw it out to keep the first pretext as short as possible. You really don't want a textwall on the first level.
QuoteI think what will surprise players is the part where the shimmier gives up due to touching the gray pillar with his feet rather than encountering a 2 pixel or greater with his hands mentioned in the pre-text for the shimmier introduction level. At least that caught me by surprise. So, I would suggest lowering the pillar so that it doesn't happen or simply get rid of it.
Then I will keep the pillar for 100% and explain it in a pre-text.
For all the rewordings and errors, I will go through them in detail and make changes when I make the actual patch. :)
Feedback for ranks 4 and 5. Also, I've attached my entire set of replays for the pack in my previous post. Please download the new attachment.
Feedback for Basic Training 2 Rank
Basic Training 2 02 - Hidden Crystalline Temple Somewhat tricky but still a great puzzle that definitely showcases the speed differences between a stacker and stoner well in terms of saving the lemmings from danger. Also illustrates each point mentioned in the pre-text well. Really nice level visually too! For the pre-text, add a comma after "Sometimes" and after "level."
Basic Training 2 03 - Dig the Trench! Add a comma after "often" and after both "builder" words, and one after "rate." Not sure if it's worth it to mention it, but perhaps "at least how many strokes are needed before one builder can't get the crowd out of the pit." I know 7 strokes are needed before lemmings can't get out of the pit on either side, but if I'm not mistaken, at least 9 strokes are needed before a builder can't get them out?
Basic Training 2 04 - Sandy Danger Somewhat easy any way you want x of everything level.
Basic Training 2 05 - Lab Workout Nice level illustrating a jumper transitioning into a shimmier and jumper interaction with the one-way field. Some thought is required where the lemmings start at in order to determine which side the stacker and stoner need to go for the level to be passable. Comma after "ceiling" and "field," replace "are able to" with "can," and get rid of the comma after "around."
Basic Training 2 06 - That Little Extra Help Since you mentioned "constructive" first and "destructive" second, the correct order should be "platformers" then "bashers." That's because by putting "bashers" first and "platformers" in the second half of the sentence, you're essentially saying that the basher is a constructive skill and the platformer is a destructive skill. That's not what you intend to say. Alternatively, you can simply switch "constructive" and "destructive" with one another, but whichever order you choose, make sure to put the word "respectively" after the second of the skill mentioned. In other words, if you want to keep "constructive" and "destructive" in the order you have it written, the correct sentence would be "Most constructive and destructive skills, like platformers and bashers, respectively, can be interrupted with a jumper." If you want to switch the order of "constructive" and "destructive" instead so that "bashers" and "platformers" don't need to switch places with each other, then the correct sentence would be "Most destructive and constructive skills, like bashers and platformers, respectively, can be interrupted with a jumper." I highlighted the correct sentences in bold, and you can simply take your pick, but the first sentence does need to be rewritten, as the way the first sentence is currently writtenn in the pre-text is not grammatically correct.
As for the level itself, it does a great job of illustrating the jumper mechanics points mentioned in the pre-text. However, something needs to be done about the end area, as I solved the level without needing to use a jumper to interrupt a basher and thus I didn't need to use the basher at all, as you will see in my replay. I also have a jumper leftover, but that's not as bad.
Basic Training 2 07 - Counterclockwise Now here you have to interrupt a basher with a jumper and I use all skills.
Basic Training 2 08 - Infinity Add a comma after "lemming" and after "teleporter" in the second sentence.
Basic Training 2 09 - Platstop Get rid of one of the "the's" that you duplicated next to each other, "platformer" in that sentence should be "platformer's brick," and change " making him" to "causing the latter"
Basic Training 2 11 - Steps and Pixels Add a comma after "wall."
Basic Training 2 13 - The Steepest Slope Plenty of commas needed here. Get rid of one of the "ups" in the second sentence, comma after the second "pixels," after "pixel," after the second "miners," and finally after "technique."
Basic Training 2 14 - A Sudden Change in Direction Add comma after the second "around." Ok, you mentioned blockers turning builders around here, so perhaps it's not necessary to mention it for Basic Training 1 8, and I did say that this technique isn't even required to solve the level anyway. So, forget about my feedback where I thought maybe it's a good idea to mention this technique for that level, then. I will strike that part of the feedback out.
Basic Training 2 15 - Concentrated Force Nice short and easy level illustrating the concept mentioned in the pre-text. I would rewrite the second sentence as, "Try to get the lemmings tightly together as much as possible using blockers (for example), and then release the concentrated horde at the right time." Also, add a comma after "way."
Basic Training 2 16 - Blocked in Your Favor A bit harder than the previous, but still a great level. Just add the word "a" before "digger."
Basic Training 2 17 - Double Down! Somewhat tricky puzzle but not too difficult. Illustrates all points mentioned in the pre-text well.
Basic Training 2 18 - Combine and Conquer Nice level! Add a comma after "method."
Basic Training 2 20 - Equal Distribution Nice puzzle! "For example, a cloned miner creates a smaller hole if cloned slightly later." Not necessarily, but I know what you mean. It just really depends on where you start the initial miner and how long you wait before cloning it. Of course, it's all dependent on how the terrain is too.
Basic Training 2 21 - Special Staircase Excellent level that illustrates all points mentioned in the pre-text well. Add a comma after "fencers."
Basic Training 2 22 - Stepping Up to the Stars Nice somewhat tricky level to end the rank. I have a walker leftover, but that's probably fine. Also, I realized that I could had made the end easier by interrupting a miner midstroke when he's still somewhat high so that the lemmings can go over the top and then just platform to the exit. Also, it will avoid unnecessary splatting that way.
Feedback for Advanced Training
Advanced Training 1 - Stepping Up to a Higher Level Nice level to start off the rank. Add a comma after "result."
Advanced Training 2 - Bending Bashers Another great level. I would rewrite the second sentence like, "The two builders need to be placed in such a way that the bottom one serves as the basher's floor, while the top one provides him something to bash."
Advanced Training 4 - Walking Over Dead Bodies Definitely didn't know about this trick before playing this level, so thank you for this. Came in realy handy for some United levels. Add a comma after "stacking" and after the second "arm" and replace "turn into a stoner" with "assign the stoner skill to him."
Advanced Training 6 - Pharaoh's Turnaround Another nice level showcasing more jumper mechanics, this time in combination with a cloner. Only one walker pick-up is not collected, but that's probably fine since the player has a choice as to which side to mine.
Advanced Training 7 - Checkboard's Crossing Somewhat hard level that provides more training with jumper + cloner combination. Cloning a lemming at the end isn't necessary, as all it does is put me 1 over the save requirement.
Advanced Training 8 - Between A Stone And A Hard Place Nice level demonstrating the concept of a lemming turning around inside a stoner terrain. Again, I didn't know about this technique before playing this level. This came in real handy for two Tension levels in United.
Advanced Training 9 - Shimmichanga Another nice level! I have a walker leftover, but that's probably ok since all it does is simply make the worker lemming get to the exit faster. In the first sentence, add a comma after "shimmier." Change "on" that's after "instead" to "of." Finally, add a comma after "far."
Advanced Training 11 - Sorry, Job Already Taken Excellent level illustrating the platformer bricks bumping into one another or extending the platforming and coexisting. Add a comma after "platform."
Advanced Training 12 - Blocker's Blindside Yet another excellent level illustrating the two main points mentioned in the pre-text. Add a comma after "size." I would rewrite the second sentence like, "Also, the turn field affects fallers, causing them to turn around in mid-air with a well-placed blocker."
Advanced Training 13 - Beam Up the Equipment! Yet another level that illustrated skills continuing on the other side of a teleporter that came in handy for a space level in United. "Withh" is a misspellning which should be "with." Also, add a comma after "level."
Advanced Training 14 - A Different Kind of Space Bit tricky level, but I have some skills leftover. I'm not sure what the second shimmier is for, though, so maybe a backroute?
Advanced Training 15 - Welcome to the Crystal Maze! The only thing my replay doesn't use is a digger step in the pit, so perhaps the level needs to change in some way to enforce it better? Take out "in" after "faces."
Advanced Training 16 - Just As He Was About to Fall Being able to assign skills to diggers in mid-air is a technique I'm quite familiar with, as this exists in Dos Lemmings, which is the version I grew up with. Thus, this technique in NL comes as no surprise to me. For the third sentence, take out "then" and replace "to the side" with "in the direction."
Advanced Training 18 - The Fiddler I haven't seen this technique before playing this level either, but I think it can still be worked out whether or not one has seen it. Take out "also," add a comma before "though," and add a comma after "correctly."
Advanced Training 19 - The Fiddler 2: Electric Boogaloo I'm confused by the pre-text. Isn't the lemming that releases the blocker in both cases facing the opposite way of the blocker? If so, then it doesn't make sense to say "Instead of a lemming facing the other way." Also, I only use the second technique of blocking to turn around a lemming that's close to it dig to release the blocker and then bash away from the staircase, so I guess i'm simply confused by what the first technique is. Of course, there isn't really a way to enforce one technique over the other, so I guess one can simply take his or her pick.
edit: After some thought, I think I figured out what you mean with the first technique. I'm imagining the situation where a lemming turns around in the basher tunnel but shortly after turning around, the basher starts bashing again, so this is where you assign a blocker to stop the basher midstroke so that the lemming that turned around at the end of the basher tunnel can release it with a digger. Am I correct? As of myself, I definitely have made use of the second technique far more often.
Advanced Training 20 - Revenge of the Fiddler "behing" is a misspelling, which should be "behind." Add a comma after "way" and after "time." Also, add a comma after "trick" and replace "though" with "around."
Advanced Training 21 - Victory Lap Nice level to round out the pack! Take out the second "remember" and add a comma after "diggers."
Quote
Ok, here some explanation is needed. I don't have any input to the displaying of <Middle-click> <P> <F11> as this is a special command.
I can let NL display EVERY key a user has binded towards a fuction. This way it doesn't matter what keys a user uses for a function, as the pre-text will always show the correct keys.
<Key> <Key> is just the automated format for that function. You really want to avoid any unsessesary ",", "and" and "or" as the text should fit inside 1 row as I have no way to include a linebreak inside a keylist.
Thanks for the information. Let's just say that even though I'm mainly a math person and English isn't my strongest point, proper writing still matters to me, and I'm quite nitpicky when it comes to other people committing English grammar and spelling errors ;P Where I come from, you'll be surprised how many students can't even write an English sentence correctly! Regarding items in a series, commas after each item but not the last one in the series is the rule in English. I know that Lemmings isn't an English game, but it's still good to make sure that errors in writing are eliminated. That's why most of my feedback focused on the English writing in the pre-text and not so much on the levels, even though there is still some of that in my feedback. Writing with many errors still leaves an impression, although maybe not a good one. Sure, I myself occasionally have errors in my writing even after I turn in or submit my assignment, but I take the time to extensively proofread my own writing and make sure that it is error-free as much as possible.
I know this pack is still far from done, but overall great job. This is a wonderfully put together pack that I will gladly refer anyone to. It will surely help people out a lot, especially those who are new to the game and/or NL. Even if the player isn't new to the game and/or NL, I would still advise them to play through this pack from the beginning to the end. Not to mention that you still managed to entertain with great humor in the pre-text for many levels. ;) We all could certainly use a chuckle or two, especially in a time like now with the ongoing global pandemic.
Anyway, I hope you find my replays and feedback helpful so that you can make this pack as great as possible. Now that I finally said my piece and given my feedback for the pack, I'm off to hopefully solve more of your United pack. Looking forward to whenever the next patch for the NL Tutorial pack will be. No hurry, of course.
If there is no more feedback incoming, I would then start to prepare the next patch soon. :)
I just did lab workout took me a few attempts to figure it out and I was proud of myself when I did. its starting to get tough for me.
Aoart from airdrop incoming (bt1 - 17) Ive got all of the first 3 ranks done.
That's quite surprising, because I thought BT1 17 was really easy. Just do exactly what the pre-text says and you'll see how very easy it is.
Ok, as uberwolfie and mantha may have some more feedback I push the patch preperations to probably next weekend.
I am also a bit surprised that BT1 17 causes some troubles. Try to use the trick stated in the pretext whereever you can and you should be fine in theory.
Maybe all you need is a little distance and next time the solution flows to you. :)
as i went to type why I couldnt do it I think Ive just figured it out be right back
yeah i figured it out I was mining in the wrong place
Hi Icho :)
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.
Quote from: uberwolfie on September 12, 2020, 12:24:16 PM
Hi Icho :)
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.
Originally this weekend, but there is no rush here so I will wait for your comments. :)
:D
In which case I'll try not to keep you waiting much longer!
Here's my feedback on the latest patch! Have to say, it really was a lot of fun to play through, and learn all these new tricks, which I'm sure I'll be using on your other packs at some point! And it was exactly what I was looking for in terms of becoming familiar with all the NeoLemmix features.
I've glanced at the feedback others have given, particularly kaywhyn on the latest update, but haven't studied this thread extensively from the beginning so please forgive me if I've brought up anything someone else already mentioned or something that was already discussed and decided upon at an earlier point. Also, You've got lots of feedback on the pre-level texts, I've limited myself mostly to pointing out only very obvious errors.
I've zipped up all my replays, but note that only the ones with the later date are relevant to the current version (don't know if there's an easy way to separate them...)
Spoiler
Skills:
8: Stacks & Stones Saved Our Bones: pre-text: "...turn Lemmings around..." is a bit more natural (to me) than "...turn around Lemmings..."
10: Walking on the Cloner Cliffs: Just a comment, it may sound silly, but having never seen cloners before, this level seemed quite a bit more difficult compared to the previous ones, it did my head in a bit initially working out how to make the "maths" work out. But I'm also probably just an idiot...
Objects & Functions:
5: Trap Roulette: "...turn around Lemmings into the direction they are facing." maybe change to: "...turn Lemmings around in the direction of the Field"? Also, I agree with kaywhyn that the converse behaviour should be mentioned (if not demonstrated?) i.e. that lemmings walking through from the other side will keep walking.
Also, forgive my ignorance, but in clear physics mode, is it possible to see which traps are single-use vs. permanent, or is it just a matter of trial and error?
6: Follow the Arrow: I wonder if this level could use a few more interesting situations for OWW's, especially the new ones, for example it doesn't seem like you need to dig at all to solve the level, except if you're just experimenting...?
7: Set Your Priorities Right: Text doesn't all fit on screen (might just be with my particular key bindings, but I haven't extensively customized them, so presumably many others would see this also)! Also, I can't work out how to select a non-skilled lemming, the middle paragraph currently tells me to press <None> which is less than helpful...
15: Highlights with a Safety Net: This is just my own NeoLemmix incompetence, but right-clicking doesn't highlight a lemming for me, I have to control-click, how does one change this?
Basic Training 1:
5: Steely Halls: Just wondering what the point of this level is? I mean there's nothing wrong with it as a level, but it's a bit less ingenious a puzzle than the previous few, and the lack of introductory text for the first time is a bit disconcerting...
6: Central Fear: I guess this level is also slightly confusing? In that you can solve by going either left or right from the entrance, but the leftward route strangely doesn't ues the disarmer? Otherwise, nice level, I assume the point of it is to make you think strategically about which way blockers are facing, and to use walkers to manipulate this?
9: Deepfreeze: I have to say, I find this level a bit tedious...which might be ok if it weren't so obvious what you have to do.
10: PARKOUR: I love jumpers so much. It does seem really weird to me the way they fall straight down immediately at the end of their jump, rather than continuing the arc - I guess more a question about NeoLemmix than one relevant to this pack though, I presume there was much discussion about this behaviour which I have not seen.
11: The Guardian: Super Fun!
Regarding 17: Airdrop Incoming! I should just say that while I didn't find this as hard as mantha seemed to, to a player new to gliders, walkers, and shimmiers (like myself) it definitely isn't immediately obvious how the interaction and the geometry works (similar to my comments on the cloner/walker level in rank 1). Also, if you check my replay, I seem to have solved it without using the gliders in any meaningful way...
Basic Training 2:
1: The Joy of Sorting: This level at first looked super intimidating, and was the reason I put the pack down for a while last time. Once I did play it though, it was apparent that it was not as nasty as it seemed, especially as you gave lots of leeway with the numerous walkers.
2: Hidden Crystalline Temple: I love this tileset, it's so pretty :cute:. I have skills left over though? Unless you're just offering some leeway.
4: Sandy Danger: I have to say, I found this level not that interesting...is there a specific point to it?
6: That Little Extra Help: What was the basher for? I didn't end up using it - if you wanted to demonstrate cancelling a basher with a jumper, then is it worth making it essential for the solution? It just didn't occur to me to utilise this. (I see kaywhyn had the same feedback.)
12: Stepblocked: I had to experiment and stare at this level quite a bit before I worked out where to build, and why exactly it stopped the other lemmings. That's not a bad thing though, great level!
13: The Steepest Slope: Last sentence of pretext needs a bit of grammar, maybe: "just remember the pause [/paws] button and frame-stepping!" or "Just remember that you can pause and frame-step!" or even "You might find pausing and frame-stepping very helpful!".
15: Concentrated Force: Was this meant to be such a tricky timing puzzle? (Replay attached)
17: Double Down!: Hilarious! Again cloners break my brain as a player new to them, but the difficulty I feel is not unwelcome at this point in the pack, and the amount of fun it is to figure out is entirely worth it!
19: Really finicky, not in an entirely enjoyable way, but maybe it's a good time to introduce such things, especially as you've paved the way so nicely for one to pretty quickly realise the solution.
Advanced Training: This is where the levels started to get really fun :)
1: Stepping up to a Higher Level: Very nice puzzle to start off with!
2: Bending Bashers: In the pre-text: "The two builders need to be placed in such a way that the bottom one..." (jinx kaywhyn!)
3: Higher Levels of Wisdom: Instructions slightly confusing, although they made more sense after having solved the level. In particular was a bit unclear about the fencer tunnels not requiring walker cancellation even though the miner ones do. But this is advanced training after all so I guess you don't want to be flat out giving us the answer...
7: Checkerboard Crossing: I'm pretty pleased with this solution, but I seem to have saved 2 more than you specified?
8: Between a Stone and a Hard Place: What is the 2nd floater for? Using one seems like the most economical way to do this trick...
9: Shimmichanga: What is the extra walker for?
14: A Different Kind of Space: Awesome blocker trick! I have to say, took me a long while to figure it out, especially given the lack of intro/hint text. As I mentioned before, obviously you don't want to give everything away at this point in the pack, and of course it follows on directly from the previous level in terms of continuing skills through teleporters, but as it is this level was the first (and only) really annoying roadblock for me. This could just be my idiosyncracy, but maybe it's worth considering adding a very veiled hint as to which direction the solution is in some pre-text?
Also, how's the rest of my solution? I seem to have quite a few skills left over...
15: Welcome to the Crystal Maze!: Last sentence of pre-text should be (?): "This sounds more complicated than it is..." (not "as it is").
19: The Fiddler 2: I found this level really annoying (that's nothing you should worry about though), obviously given the title, it's meant to be fiddly, but the main thing I was missing was that finding the precise basher stroke you stop him on is the key to the puzzle. Maybe it's worth hinting at this a little more specifically? I don't know though, this late in the pack people really should be thinking for themselves, and it didn't stump me for as long as "A Different Kind of Space".
21: Victory Lap: Amazing little puzzle! Maybe some congratulations text would be appropriate? ;)
Hey uber, congrats on finishing the pack for the time being, since it's still being expanded and in development. This was a pack that I forgot to list as a recommendation, and one that I would recommend to anyone, regardless of whether the person is new or not to NL. Some remarks on your feedback:
Objects and Functions 5: Yes, there is! When you cursor over a trap and then activate CPM, it'll say one of two things, trap with an infinity symbol next to it, or the number 1. The former are continuous traps that will continue to kill lemmings, while the latter will activate once and then won't ever work again after that. The interesting thing is that when I read your question about that, I thought there wasn't a way with CPM either, but I never ever noticed the trap label differences in CPM before. Now I know too!
Objects and Functions 7: Do you mean how to select a lemming that currently isn't performing a skill? That would be the Ctrl key. Also, this assumes that you chose the traditional layout when you ran NL for the very first time. If you didn't, you can change it via the F3 key in the main menu. You have 3 choices of layouts. I'm not sure what the keys for the other two are, since I have always used the traditional one.
Objects and Functions 15: See above for Objects and Functions 7. Regarding customizing the keys, I'm not sure how to do that.
BT 1 6: Wow, that's a nice solution going to the left! :thumbsup:
BT 1 17: The level's very open-ended, so it's perfectly fine to have plenty of skills leftover. As a matter of fact, it's possible to simply do the level with only one worker lemming!
AT 9: Just for saving time and not have to wait for the worker lemming to turn around. It's optional.
AT 14: Nice, exact same solution as mine! Great minds think alike ;)
Regarding AT 19:
Spoiler
This is where you can try and make some slight adjustments with the first basher so that it works out a bit better. In your replay, you bashed right as the lemming touched the wall. Try bashing a little further away from the wall and see what happens.
All your other feedback I'll let Icho address them. He's more than welcome to expand on some of the comments that I already made on some of the levels above.
Seems like I've got work to do next weekend. :)
14: A Different Kind of Space:
Well it seems like you both found the same backroute. :XD: I will fix it up and in the process direct the player more into the right direction.
QuoteAlso, forgive my ignorance, but in clear physics mode, is it possible to see which traps are single-use vs. permanent, or is it just a matter of trial and error?
Yes, it should display it.
But anyway, I'll read through everything when I get to fixing. ;)
Thanks both of you, it's nice to know these things now :thumbsup:
AT 14: Swag! 8-)
AT 19:
Spoiler
Yes I definitely had to do that as well, otherwise the amount of wall left at the end would either be too little or too much, but what I'm referring to is that I couldn't get the solution to work unless the basher stopped only having struck away the bare minimum of the terrain, i.e. at the very top of his swing. In all other positions, there would not form that pixel step created by the digger needed for the lemmings to make it up, as the digger would have to dig too low, and create a too-high wall. Not sure if there is a way to make it work at other points in the basher's stroke; one thing I noticed though is that seemingly if you stop the basher at the lowest point before sweeping away the whole piece of wall, turning him into a blocker consistently fails to turn around the lemmings coming up close behind him, although presumably this depends on the exact distance, I just noticed it more in this part of the stroke than others. Like you say, Icho, it sure is fiddly!
Ah, I see. It depends on how thick the wall is to begin with. If it's not as high, then other basher cancelling positions will work too. Both the least amount of terrain removed and the next stroke after that will both work. The one absolute must is that the basher has to be interrupted midstroke. If it completes the entire stroke, therefore leaving a vertical strip of wall, then there's no step for the lemmings to be able to step up, and so they'll simply turn around when they hit the wall. You can easily test this on Tame 1 of ONML. Have a climber dig down the first brick wall when it gets to the top, then bash so that a lemming who bashes the wall at ground level only a bit of ceiling will be left above him. Then you'll see other basher positions will still work for lemmings to step up when it is interrupted midstroke.
V 0.19 is out!
Added a logo and rank signs made by zanzindorf! :thumbsup:
Backroute fixes based on the replays by kaywhyn and uberwolfie:
1 05 (Thinner platforms at the start)
2 11 (Added an acid pit)
2 15 (removed a chain, added a flamer)
3 06 (added a terrain ramp so that the trap is reachable from both sides)
3 16 (-1 builder, -1 platformer, added saws to make acutally using the updraft more appealing)
4 06 (-1 basher)
5 07 (adusted the whole solution, +1 save requirement, the glider is now a pick-up, switched up the other pick-ups)
5 14 (-1 walker, the other walker is now a pick-up, -1 save requirement)
5 16 (removed the overhangs inside the structures)
5 21 (lowered the starting ramp by 4 pixels)
Also, a ton of pre-text changes!
Some comments:
Leftover skills are often 100% intended here simply to give leeway or allow an alternative route. Not always though.
Highliting a lemming is really just the right-click for me and I am not familar with a setting that requires control as well. Maybe you need to ask namida there and inform me if there is indeed such a setting.
There are quite often more interesting scenarios to certain behaviors, but quite often those are also reaching either above the scope of the lesson or are dangerously close to redundancy.
Beginning with Basic Training there are levels without text that serve just as training with no new lessons. Repetition is key to learning! Also here levels can start to be a bit more precise in terms of placement and timing. This is a part of many custom levels and I want to force the player at least a few times to rely on this.
Wow, I'm really digging the new logo and rank signs! Nice job, zanzindorf! :thumbsup:
If there is nothing else to point out I will soon prepare a 1.0 version then. Yes, if there is another skill/object coming it will still need some changes, but other than that it should be good to go.
Resolved the pack. My replays for 2 15, 4 06, and 5 14 still work, so I didn't include those. Everything else I needed to resolve.
Skills 5: Block and Blow in the Snow Now a blocker use is enforced, although only on the second snow platform. I don't use it in my replay, but you can still bomb on the left on ground level to prevent lemmings from walking into the water. So, the solution now requires a minimum of 2 blockers to be solved
Objects & Functions 11: Gravity Lab Due to the acid pit, only the second builder assignment needed to be adjusted and assigned at the bottom. Nice job! The only thing I'm iffy about in the pre-text is that it mentions that "updrafts prevent lemmings from splatting." This is true only to a certain extent. If the fall is greater than 64 pixels below the updrafts, then they splat as usual. Just me being nitpicky again, and this is a very minor detail that's not worth mentioning anyway, so no changes are needed to the pre-text.
Basic Training 1 06: Central Fear Not sure why my replay broke, but in any case it was a very easy fix, where I just needed to assign a walker to the lemming that finished bashing to the left. At least it's not possible to hold the crowd back in the middle area anymore just like in uber's feedback.
Basic Training 1 16: Scrap the Buttons! With the change, the level's a more decent challenge. Still not that much harder. Nice level.
Advanced Training 7: Checkerboard's Crossing Not sure what changes in the solution, but I believe one change is a glider now comes from the bottom crowd due to it now being a pickup. I don't remember what I had leftover in the old version, but here I have a jumper leftover.
Advanced Training 14: A Different Kind of Space Since my replay for this level still works, I'm wondering if you intended both of uber's and my replay for this level with the changes. We literally have the same solution, and I thought you were trying to prevent our backroute? ??? It hasn't in this case.
Advanced Training 16: Just As He Was About to Fall Not sure why my replay broke here, but easy fix.
Advanced Training 21: Victory Lap I don't recall releasing the blocker while keeping the basher staircase intact being frustrating in that it also took the ceiling above with it, but that's exactly what I experienced while trying to resolve the level. Solution is the same, just needed to readjust the bomber in the first wall, as well as the blocker and the first miner assignments.
Regarding the pre-texts, a lot of them are so much better now, although changes are still needed on some to improve them even more. I'll provide my feedback for that next time.
V 0.20 is out!
Backroute fixes based on the replays by kaywhyn:
- 4 06 (-1 jumper)
- 5 14 (+1 save req, +1 walker as a pick-up, some terrain changes)
- 5 21 (moved a miner pick-up, added steel, minor terrain changes)
Comments:
Advanced Training 7: Checkerboard's Crossing
Let's just say you did the precise route where theplatformer turns around. ;) Otherwise it's fine as I don't want to enforce that detail.
Advanced Training 14: A Different Kind of Space
Yeah, my fix was just crap. :XD: This should be better now.
Advanced Training 21: Victory Lap
Your way is asking for frustraition, so I need to clearly block it. Steel should do it! That will hopefully now enforce the other digger as well as a result.
Replay still works for 4 06, and I was able to resolve everything except for 5 14. Before I post my replays for 5 14 and 5 21, I want to get confirmation from you that 5 14 is either possible and I'm a dummy or it's impossible. Given the skillset at the very start (no walkers, 2 shimmiers, 1 climber, 1 blocker, 2 platformers, 1 basher, and no miners) and the starting situation with the max RR and how you have to save everyone, I'm inclined to say that it's impossible ??? As you need to block with the second lemming at the bottom in front of the teleporter, and the only ways to save a third lemming at the bottom is to waste two platformers so that one of them turns around back to the teleporter, or bash so that the other one turns around during the in-progress basher tunnel. Either way, I won't have enough skills to finish the rest of the level, and the shimmiers certainly won't help to save a lemming.
As for 5 21, yes, I now use all skills. With the steel, it makes it much easier to know where to start bashing.
I still haven't received a report from you as to whether AT 14 is possible or impossible. I'm still convinced that it's currently impossible, given the starting situation players find themselves in at the very start and the save requirement. Can you confirm solvability or lack of for the level? No matter what you do to save both lemmings at the bottom, you won't have enough skills to complete the level. I think here the issue might be incorrect placements for some of the pickup skills.
As for pre-text feedback, I'll do that next time when I send working replays for AT 14 and AT 21.
Totally missed that post. :-[
My replay is still totally fine and works for 5 14.
I can 100% confirm solvability! QuoteNo matter what you do to save both lemmings at the bottom, you won't have enough skills to complete the level.
Distance yourself from your previous backroute a bit and take a look what the 3 levels before wanted to teach you. ;) It's really not much more here, I promise.
All rightie, thanks. I will send my replays your way after I resolve the new 5 14 then.
And, 5 14 resolved. I have attached my updated replay collection set with the new 5 14 and 5 21 resolved. Yup, I was a complete dummy this whole time. 5 14 is a very nice level now! :thumbsup: I wonder if the level might be a little too hard, though.
Spoiler
In particular, the trick with blocking on a steep slope completely escaped me and I was constantly stuck on how to get the lemmings up if you have to waste two platformers at the bottom to turn one of them around. Funny really, because this blocker trick also escaped me on that one polar level, Scorched Meltdown, in the Genocide rank in United. Of course, I eventually figured it out, but it took a while. Similar situation/context, where I constantly kept thinking I was a constructive skill short. I apparently didn't learn this lesson/trick well :-[ To be fair, I think this blocker trick is very easily overlooked by anyone and hence it can be quite difficult to spot and apply.
Especially for less experienced players, I'm thinking that these players will also be stuck for a long time like I was in wondering how to get the lemmings up to the exit area. Then again, that's exactly what the prior training levels are for, just with AT 14 there's no prior announcement of what prior levels can be helpful here to solve the level. With the way the pack has been so far, you generally have only needed to look at the level immediately before. AT 14 is a big exception, where you need to look at what the previous 3 levels taught. So I'm thinking the way to rectify this is to simply announce in the pretext for the level exactly what you told me in your previous post. The only problem, of course, is that it might make the level much easier than is intended.
The remaining feedback will be on the cleaning up of some pre-texts. Many of them are huge improvements over the last time, so I'm glad to see most of the suggestions implemented :thumbsup: However, there's still some that can be improved further, mostly just comma issues.
Skills 1 - Just a comma is needed after "breath." Otherwise, looks great! ;)
Skills 2 - Great, but unless you already addressed this and I missed it, should it also be mentioned that the grey shadow shows up when the skill in the panel is selected in addition to mousing over a lemming?
Skills 4 - Just a comma is needed after "head." Otherwise, it's good! ;)
Skills 8 - Looks great. I wonder if it should be mentioned that assigning stoners in midair can be used to break falls as well. Then again, you did mention in the pretext a couple of levels before that lemmings die if they fall 64 or more pixels, so it might not be necessary.
Skills 9 - Just a comma is needed after "levels."
Skills 13 - Commas needed after "last," "0," and "button." Also, "assings" is a typo, where it should be "assigns."
Objects and Functions 1 - Just a comma is needed after "area."
Objects and Functions 3 - Instead of a semicolon ( ; ), that should be a colon ( : ). Also, comma after "left."
Objects and Functions 5 - Comma after "activation." Perhaps instead of "with," "through" is probably a better word to use.
Objects and Functions 6 - Commas needed after "fencers" and "miners" in the left/right facing OWWs and downwards OWWs sentences, respectively.
Objects and Functions 7 - Comma needed after "pit."
Objects and Functions 8 - Commas needed after "sometimes," "locked," and "deviate."
Objects and Functions 9 - Commas needed after "sometimes" and "now."
Objects and Functions 10 - Commas needed after "time," the first "receiver" in the second paragraph, after the second "mode," and after "traps."
Objects and Functions 11 - Commas needed after the second "pads" and after the second "which" in the second paragraph. Also, instead of "by contrast," "in contrast" sounds better.
Objects and Functions 12 - Comma after "made," take out the comma after "again." "Frame-stepping" should be capitalized.
Objects and Functions 14 - Comma after "case."
Objects and Functions 16 - Text cuts out at the end. Not sure what should be removed here to cut out the fluff.
Objects and Functions 17 - Comma needed after "otherwise."
BT 1 01 - Comma needed after "first."
BT 1 02 - Comma needed after "steel."
BT 1 04 - Comma needed after "trick." For the last sentence in the second paragraph, perhaps add "can work" after "even diggers" so the beginning reads "Even diggers can work" and the rest of the sentence is fine as is.
BT 1 08 - Comma needed after second "wall."
BT 1 10 - Comma needed after the first "jump" in the third paragraph.
BT 1 15 - "Ammount" is a typo. Should be "amount."
BT 1 19 - Commas needed after "level" and after "also."
BT 1 20 - Commas needed after "sometimes" and after "miner."
BT 1 21 - Comma needed after "time."
BT 2 02 - Comma needed after "also."
BT 2 03 - Very nice pre-text. I wonder if it should be mentioned to stop the digger after at least 9 or 10 strokes (I'm not sure how many pixels the builder adds and the crowd will still be contained). Then again, the player is taught that lemmings cannot get over 7 or more pixel high walls later on, so it might not be necessary to mention when to stop a digger with a builder after a certain number of strokes.
BT 2 09 - Add the word "to" after "latter."
BT 2 16 - Comma needed after second "blocker."
BT 2 20 - Instead of "hole" put "tunnel" since it's technically a tunnel miners make.
BT 2 21 - Comma needed after "bashers."
AT 1 - Remove "to" in the third paragraph.
AT 3 - I feel like "create" sounds better than "form." "Form" works too, just the other one sounds better to me.
AT 4 - Comma needed after "bricks."
AT 9 - Not sure how I missed it the first time, but "under" should really be "above." When you're platforming in the level, the bricks are above the shimmier when he jumps, not under him.
AT 11 - Comma needed after "here."
AT 15 - Remove "in."
AT 18 - Maybe instead of "removed" perhaps "released" is a better word to use here, since we technically want to release the blocker, not remove him by bombing him, for example.
AT 19 - Comma is needed after "way" in the third paragraph.
AT 20 - Add "very" after "are."
AT 21 - Just need to fix the comma being by itself, as it should really be next to "diggers."
With these pre-text changes for the next update, we got one very awesome and excellent NL Tutorial pack which I approve and will highly recommend to anyone! :) Once again, nice job with the levels themselves. Perhaps when the v1.0 of the pack comes NL should definitely ship with this pack along with Redux ;)
Will look through these soon + apply fixes. :)
I really tend to a short reminder pre-text in 5 14 towards the last 3 levels.
If you like, I'll be more than happy to take a look at your pre-text for 5 14 when you have it. That way, we can simply fix and tidy it up before you release the final version of 5 14's pre-text along with the next version of the pack ;)
V 0.21 is out!
Menu + rank graphics have been adjusted for the new release. Please delete your old version of the pack before updating!
When no more feedback is coming in, I will then prepare the V 1.0 release of the pack with kaywhyns feedback. No worries though, as even after V 1.0 feedback will always be welcome and will be accounted for in future updates.
I just think that the pack is developed enough for a stable release now.
There will be switch ups in the level order in the future though as new skills will be introduced. Therefore I recommend saving replays through the level name and not rank+position.