And here it is, slightly smaller, and quite a bit more puzzly than PARALEMS:
(https://i.imgur.com/s4Xl9fm.png)
:compat-new:
:compat-ver-10-13::compat-yes:
PIT LEMS has 100 levels, 20 for each rank: LOL, ROFL, WTF, OMFG, and FML. The name is inspired by the Star Wars spinoff-puzzle game "Pit Droids (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3366.msg65416#msg65416)", because it is my first attempt at a more puzzly pack.
Differences to PARALEMS:
- adhering more to a puzzle philosophy: no hidden traps, exits, or other objects, unless it's unavoidable - some tilesets have naturally less salient traps than others, e.g. the Purple and Snow tileset
- no time limits
- more mechanically-, less flavour-driven
- timing, i.e. relative distance of lemmings to each other, is a thing, though - following Pit Droids philosophy here, but also similar levels from Nepster Lems etc.
- the majority of puzzles is more Sudoku-like, less maze-like: I prefer to create challenges through tight limitation of skills rather than through level size. The bigger levels that are in here therefore usually have a comparatively lenient skill count; as long as you follow some basic principles of efficient and economical skill use, you should be fine.
- there is no hatch-labeling for lemmings with pre-assigned skills, because some hatches give out lemmings with several different skills - like in Pit Droids, where one hatch can spawn Droids of different colours
- radiation and slowfreeze occasionally appear, as do zombies. They aren't the main focus of the pack, though.
- There is still one light "trolling" level in here, because I deliberately wanted to make a fair one :) , meaning it will go against some player expectations, but everything relevant should still be visible.
Some specials about this one:
- where PARALEMS had re-runs of original Lemmings levels, PIT LEMS features some remakes of Lemmings 3D levels. They might not work exactly the same, though, because there obviously are no turners, and Lemmings can't be stunned like in Lemmings 2.
- I made another "no skills" level, slightly more advanced than the one from PARALEMS. :D It comes comparatively early in the pack, since this one also has an "educational function".
- Since a lot of levels still seem to restrict themselves to the classic 8 skills, I added a level only featuring NeoLemmix skills.
- "Storywise", you actually have an antagonist, someone who wants to kill all lemmings - and I hope it will become obvious with the last level who this person is... :D
On to the ranks!
LOL
These are mainly introduction levels, yet not of the usual sort. Most of the skills are taught in "chunks", i.e. all destructive skills, all creative skills, and so on. Most objects are introduced, and yes, as you can see, that includes radiation and slowfreeze. Also, some easier tricks that can be done with the skills are taught (meaning "enforced") here. Some of these levels might catch the unsuspecting player off-guard, though!
(https://i.imgur.com/NP5BVcd.png)
Base jumping - here the difference between updraft and anti-splat pad is actually relevant!
(https://i.imgur.com/s9m4BFT.png)
Annihilation station
(https://i.imgur.com/25h3Gxb.png)
Petrification station
ROFL
The name might make you believe these levels were easier, but in fact they're just more weird. Some slightly more advanced tricks. Larger levels start to appear (see example one), yet there are also a lot of more compressed levels that require some thinking out-of-the-box instead.
(https://i.imgur.com/EFIooU7.png)
Skies and Sand
(https://i.imgur.com/PFvfFfh.png)
Na zdorovje Lem
(https://i.imgur.com/1nc44PA.png)
Beware of collectivism - different kinds of lemmings coming out of the same hatch!
WTF
This rank isn't necessarily supposed to annoy you yet, but rather to surprise and confuse, at least making you pause for a second.
(https://i.imgur.com/jxgEXj0.png)
Under construction
(https://i.imgur.com/y2KjqR6.png)
Check mate
OMFG
Now it's time to purposefully confuse the player visually. Apparently, there is a target audience for these types of levels here in the community; hence, these levels can usually be identified by their names, as in the first example below ;) .
(https://i.imgur.com/oNl2KmW.png)
You had it coming
(https://i.imgur.com/bxDvHro.png)
Cherry picking
FML
Any frustration you might experience on this rank is absolutely intended. :) It shouldn't be too much execution-based frustration, but especially when radiation and slowfreeze are involved, I won't guarantee for anything - and on this rating, I don't feel obliged to either ^^. This rank will also test you with regard to the skill tricks taught to you before - but of course, it won't be quite as obvious anymore where you'll have to use them!
(https://i.imgur.com/KpusBFK.png)
You asked for this!
(https://i.imgur.com/aD88epM.png)
Merry X-Maze!
(https://i.imgur.com/W1KvJRT.png)
Last cry for salvation - differently coloured hatches used for lemmings with and without pre-assigned skills
Go ahead and give it a shot whenever you feel like it! Perhaps this will also meet the tastes of users who might have found PARALEMS a bit too whacky and "out there". :D
Let the search for backroutes begin anew!
Download link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kywespbmncb6ccr/Pit%20Lems.nxp?dl=1
Started a blind LP. First part is up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkLT_rhxEjM&feature=youtu.be
This pack is way harder than Paralems, that's for sure. :o I'm probably going to need help at some point or I'm gonna get stuck and have to give up the LP. For now though I'm still ok...
It's an honour to be welcomed into the ranks of those whose packs are on YouTube! :D Thanks a lot, nin10doadict!
I just watched it, you got the intended solution on every level except for "Blocking all over the world"! :D As I have also commented on the video, I am going to swap the position of "Blocking all over the world" and "On the fence" for the next version, so the player gets an official taste of the fencer before having to use it in a more complex setting. Although "On the fence" seemed to be the harder one of these two levels, so that would speak for its higher position ;) .
Spoiler
Aside from the fencer, there are also some other single skill-levels, some of which are easier, e.g. for the stoner and the miner. So it might be better to start the pack with those? The intention of this level sequence was just to show the player what each skill does as quickly as possibly before forcing him to come up with several creative uses for a single particular skill.
Also, the Only diggers-level ended up so complicated that it earned a spot in the FML rank! ^^
To the single levels:
Being creative. That's one example of the intended increased difficulty: In PARALEMS, this trick could be used on Tailor-made for stackers to save 100%, but wasn't required until the Disgusting rank. Here, you have to be - guess what - creative with those creative skills right away :D .
Athletic aesthetics. It is also possible to bridge across the water using a builder, then a stoner as a stepping stone, and from there on a second builder. Some later levels will certainly require this ;) .
Blocking all over the world. The fencer was actually intended to free lemmings out of a digger pit, the digger pit being another way of turning lemmings around which I wanted to introduce with this level.
I could enforce the intended solution by adding more fire pieces in the places where you used the miner, and steel where you used the digger. That however would make this level insanely hard with regard to timing, because with digger pits there is often a single lemming that still manages to slip out of it.
Meanwhile, I have reached the Hyper rank of your newest version of CasualLemmings, although there's still some levels in between which I had to skip for the moment and will have to come back to later - some as low as the first rank :D . I guess I will just upload all the replays of the levels which I'm able to solve in one big bunch soon. Don't feel quite comfortable enough at solving community packs yet to do it on YouTube, my success rate, irrespective of which pack I'm playing, is still too low at this point - I picked my new custom user title for a reason ;) , after all.
I have also downloaded Lemmings Squared this evening, because as you can see, I don't mind Stacker shenanigans ;) . Will be interesting to take a look at your first pack in comparison, because CasualLemmings did indeed already turn out a lot harder than its title would suggest.
I've kept working at it and I've cleared the first rank and the first 4 levels of ROFL as well. Despite how it may sound, I'm enjoying the difficulty of it so far. Few of the levels have been cakewalks, but none have been so hard that it was frustrating. :thumbsup:
I'm pretty sure I've found some backroutes here and there though. Some new backroutes appear to have cropped up in Casualemmings too so I'll have to make another pass at looking through it. Hyper rank is bound to have some backroutes still hanging around too that people will likely dig up...
That's great to hear, I'll keep watching! :)
Speaking of backroutes, I found out by playing your level "Sewer shaft" that apparently it is possible to dive beneath the trigger of crocodile traps using only a single stoner. This will very probably create a shortcut on one of my levels, "Crossing the Nile". So far, I had only worked with the shells from the Beach tileset, as far as traps directly on water are concerned, which have a wider trigger area and therefore always required several stoners to dive under.
Perhaps I can replace the stoners with stackers and work out something different... just wanted to warn everyone ahead of time that this level can probably be broken easily ;) . Like with Paralems however, I'm going to do a bunch of major corrections in one big swoop, rather than constantly replacing the pack file.
It's a pretty good pack so far! The levels feel a lot more puzzly than in Paralems and I like that. :)
Kiitos, that's what I was hoping for :) ! I wasn't sure whether you got to take a look at Paralems, because there weren't any post of yours in the respective thread. But judging from the Wafflemm Casualemmings stream, more people than I expected did at least try it, because Wafflemm seemed to get nin10doadict's reference with regard to the super-powered crocodiles :D .
Currently, it seems like most people are busy with the level design contest, so it will take a while to spread the word.
If you have any replays you could upload, that would certainly help me to improve this pack even more! ;)
Yeah, I did play Paralems! I just often find hard to give more constructive feedback other than "Awesome!" or "Great job!". :P
I will be sure to post some replays after I have completed more levels. ;)
So far, I view it as "Pit Lems has more wit, but Paralems has more soul" :D . Although the latter is probably very much linked to the music, since I often used famous tracks to make some kind of comment about the level. That obviously gets lost here since I can't upload copyrighted music to an official place. I would have loved to do a musical equivalent to what arty is doing with epochs of art in his pack, but I fear even if I created self-transcribed replicas of all those songs with a notation software like Guitar Pro or similar, that still wouldn't solve the problem because the piece itself would still be copyrighted, even if it wasn't the original record playing in the background.
With regard to Pit Lems, I'm predicting thus far that the first major roadblock might be "Doubling Down", ROFL 08. This level tries to teach several not-quite-so-famous and even less obvious tricks to the player, mainly stuff I learned from Nepster, and I'm not sure whether the preview text will be enough to give the unsuspecting player a chance. Of course, with lots of logical thinking, people who don't know about these tricks might still figure them out for themselves... but lots of logical thinking would be more suited for higher ranks. :D Then again, this level is supposed to teach the tricks - the higher ranks feature levels where they need to be applied without prior introduction. So I don't really know how much higher this level can or should go.
Some levels are going to swap places eventually, anyway. I just feel a little sorry for nin10doadict running into this level on camera... :)
Also, as expected I was able to backroute my level "Crossing the Nile" by diving beneath the traps. It did take two stoners per crocodile rather than one, because the triggers were placed a little deeper in the water, but still, that's not the way this level was supposed to be solved. It might work if I limit the number of stoners to four and replace the remaining ones with floaters and stackers.
I'm up to ROFL 20 at this point and haven't started attempting it. I didn't actually find 'Doubling Down' all that tough, though I may have cheesed it a bit with some bomber shenanigans due to the jagged terrain up top. That video will be part 7 when I get there, but...
Encoding my videos is difficult because my computer is old and worn and my encoder kinda sucks. Encoding my 15 minute videos takes about 45 minutes if I don't have any other programs open (longer if I do), and even still there's about a 50% chance the output file just won't exist or the computer will crash from the exertion. :lix-ashamed:
I do have up through part 6 encoded and ready to post though, but I'm limiting it to one video per day.
Ah, I'm relieved to hear about that! :D
QuoteI do have up through part 6 encoded and ready to post though, but I'm limiting it to one video per day.
That's certainly wise, don't waste your ammunition too quickly! :D
Of course this means there will be a comparatively large gap between what we can see you playing and where in the pack you actually are at the moment, so if you're struggling with a particular level and might need some help, I will have to guess from your descriptions and/or uploaded replay files here on the forum, rather being able to see what you are attempting. Chances are, if you end a video in the middle of a level and it seems like you got stuck, I you probably already solved that level in the meantime ;) .
Attached my replays. Overall these levels were much better than your first pack, but there are likely far more backroutes, too. Sorry for not giving more feedback, but at the moment I don't have time to type a more detailed comment. :-[
Thanks for playing, and for the laurels, Nepster! :) Replays usually speak louder than words, anyway. May I ask how long it took you in total to get through the pack, roughly speaking? ;)
Quotethere are likely far more backroutes, too.
Yeah, that's certainly one of the universally positive things about execution-heavy levels - they usually can't be backrouted :D ! Reduce the execution-based stuff and the number of backroutes goes up... but thanks to you I have lots to watch now, so I shall go on a hunt for those genius little shortcuts :) ...
Quote from: Strato Incendus on October 12, 2017, 09:09:20 PM
May I ask how long it took you in total to get through the pack, roughly speaking? ;)
Sorry, but I have honestly no idea at all. It took me a few days, but I played the levels in the breaks that I took from fixing NeoLemmix bugs or converting styles. This makes is quite hard to get a good estimate how long I actually spent on your pack.
Okay, once more thanks a lot to Nepster, your replays have enabled me to hopefully kill all the backroutes you had found.
Here is the updated version (you can also use the link in the starting post):Pit Lems V2 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kywespbmncb6ccr/Pit%20Lems.nxp?dl=1)
Changelog of levels worth playing againSpoiler
- "Blocking all over the world" and "On the fence" have swapped places so that the fencer gets introduced properly before being used in a more complex setting.
- Blocking all over the world will now be more difficult due to added steel and fire pieces. Mining next to the fire object is no longer possible, thereby making one more turn-around necessary.
- Candyland climber now has an intro text to introduce the cloner skill.
- Sadistic choice: The formerly intended solution has been discarded :D . Now the trap door is so low that it is not possible to platform over the splat pad without causing the lemmings from the right trap door to splat. I had given up on this solution originally because I thought it just wasn't possible, but the solution required now is what I had in mind when I first conceptualised this level :) .
- Petrification station. Added steel to prevent shortcut for the miner.
- Ouch, my head!. Added steel to prevent shortcut for the miner. Makes on more turnaround necessary.
- Beware of collectivism. The stoners have been removed. This should be a lot more difficult now!
- Wraparound revival. Added steel to cut off the way through the "waffle" ;) .
- Lems off the wall. Added some steel to prevent a shortcut that doesn't use the stoners.
- Na zdorovje Lem. One builder removed.
- Cannibal cave. Added some steel pieces so that one can't simply go above the entire level.
- An all new challenge. Added a second "fire ball" to prevent backroute from the left side.
- How to be impractical. There was a small gap of terrain between the steel pieces that could be exploited for a backroute; it's covered up now :) .
- C(l)on(e)fusion. Added some one-way arrows to make this more challening.
- Mission impossible. That was one ridiculous backroute, using single builder-steps to get around that flame trap. Adding a second one facing in the opposite direction will hopefully make this impossible in the future! ;)
- I want to believe. That little bit more steel should suffice to prevent you from simply building over the pole.
- Arigato, Lemming-san! Extended the one-way arrows down into the ground everywhere.
- Connecting the dots. Here I actually removed some steel / replaced it with normal terrain, so that one has to babysit the miner. Also added a fire trap to prevent going over the top at the end.
- Crossing the Nile. I had to add some sandbanks so that the trap triggers are in the water but at the same time you can't dive beneath them. I apologise for the pixel-precision that resulted from this, but it couldn't be done any other way, as far as I could tell. I also adapted the skill set accordingly.
- Free-floating tent, The sky is the limit and Another stunt maneuver. Before, these could all be solved in almost the same way. I added some more variations, and especially the middle-difficulty one, The sky is the limit, hopefully goes so much against player expectations that it will cause confusion! :)
- Fire in the hole. Added some steel to prevent going around the one-way terrain.
- Don't believe in prophecy. Added a fire- and a stomper trap to prevent a shortcut.
- Disintegrated. There was a free spot of terrain here, not covered by the fire objects as intended, that would allow for a backroute. No more! ;)
- Going down the hard way. Can you guess it? Yes, this one also needed more steel :) , which makes this rerun slightly different from the original.
- You reap what you sow. Nepster's solution was also kinda cool, but just didn't require enough of the skills for my tastes. :D Not really a backroute, but I really wanted to enforce the use of the teleporter!
- Icing on the cake. Needed some steel to crush the party for the fencers.
- Man shields. Required steel beneath the one-use traps as well as in the starting tower.
- Ramp up your lemmings. This is where steel had to be introduced for the rerun that would destroy the solution for the first iteration. So don't be confused about the terrain differences, it has to be this way!
- Builder buddies. Those little plants I added as mere decoration actually ended up "corroding" the steel :) . They have been flushed in deeper now so one can't dig into them!
- "The curse level", FML 06. Removed a stacker and a stoner, just an overall tighter resource limit.
- Get a foothold. I replaced those blocks with steel blocks so one doesn't simply bomb through the terrain using radiation. It may still be possible somehow, but it's probably a lot harder now.
- Acrobatic endeavors. Added another hammer trap so that the player doesn't simply lead all lemmings to the right exit with a staircase.
- Lemhattan. Added some upward-arrows. Unfortunately, the city tileset doesn't have one-way down arrows, so I needed to borrow them elsewhere. Looks a little inconsistent, maybe, but otherwise one simply could have dug there.
- Triple security. I messed with the skillset a lot to hopefully enforce what I found most amazing about the intended solution originally. What's required now is a mixture of Nepster's solution, which I took some inspirations from, and my original plans for this level.
- Apotheosis exam. All the pickup skills have been removed, upward arrows have been added. Hope these provide for a good challenge!
Apart from those levels, a lot of Nepster's solutions weren't necessarily intended, but not backroutes either - just valid and oftentimes very curious alternative solutions. I thought about putting that skeleton on "Last cry for salvation" back behind the steel to make it impermeable, but then decided I liked your solution so much - especially since you steel needed all of the builders - that I want to keep this option available.
And I have to say, your solution for "A trip to Yugoslemmia", which was intended to be pure timing-based annoyance (since timing apparently doesn't count as "execution" :P ), was truly genius! :D
nin10doadict's LP is providing some valuable additional perspective on this pack! For some levels, I have decided to re-arrange the skill count in order to enforce his solution where the level previously was too unspecific.
Also, I had a really hard time blocking the timing-based solution on WTF 01, "The Mummy". I've added some canopic jars at the bottom so that the zombie can't walk quite as far, and additionally used the "lock" feature on th release rate for the very first time ever :) .
I'm curious to see what further shortcuts nin10doadict might find, so I can upload another big update of the pack once his LP is finished. From what I could tell during your playthrough of "Mission Impossible", you are now actively looking for backroutes, just like Nepster did, which is very helpful to "cleanse" this pack of any remaining ones! :)
nin10doadict has done a great job at playing through this pack, and as he told me there were only 5 from a total of 100 levels he couldn't solve. And except for one, these were not the levels where I would have guessed it! :D
EDIT: He even did solve 4 of these 5 in the meantime! :thumbsup: So I guess they're merely his top (or bottom? :D ) five now.
These are the levels we're talking about (
spoiler warning if you still need to watch his video series ;) ):
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/y2KjqR6.png)
Check mate (WTF 04)
Yes, you do have to use the lemmings from above to clear the path for the lower ones. The good thing is, once you've figured out a strategy to get past one of these blocks, you should have enough resources to make it across the remaining ones.
(https://i.imgur.com/7hQpR2H.png)
Airborne aid (WTF 11)
If you keep having trouble with finding the correct placing to enter the slowfreeze or clone slowfreezing lemmings: Personally, I'd always start in the middle, which is why I didn't consider this level as difficult as it apparently turned out to be ;) .
(https://i.imgur.com/fbOg6iL.png)
Cherry picking (OMFG 20)
You need to climb left before you climb right. And then, it's another case of
(https://i.imgur.com/8zuAfU2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KEJhty1.png)
Lemmings of Troy (FML 13)
Gliding at the beginning, then some efficient basher cloning, and a nice stoner-miner-cloner combination at the end.
(https://i.imgur.com/rddfNn9.png)
Speedy Lembert (FML 18)
And here comes probably one of the hardest levels I managed to create thus far. Based on "Speedy Eggbert", from which this tileset is taken, I myself struggled with finding the correct sequence of pickup skills on those five platforms on the left for a while. But I remained stubborn and tried to find something that works with what I had, rather than just changing stuff (which is a temptation any level creator must resist quite often, I guess ;) ). But when I finally found it, it felt great! :) And I left this post-frustrational joy in here for other players to experience.
So you can probably guess, if there was any level I expected to cause people to quit, it was this one!
I noticed the final fencer might be superfluous, though, since the lemming should be a climber by that point anyway.
Once the final episode is out and I've had a chance to look at all the backroutes nin10adict has found, I will upload a (more) fixed version 3. But having found some further backroutes in other, much older packs myself, I guess they can never be ruled out entirely :) .
And here it is,
Version 3 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kywespbmncb6ccr/Pit%20Lems.nxp?dl=1) is out! (The link in the opening post should work as well, of course.) :D
ChangelogSpoiler
Na zdorovje Lem. I deliberately tried to backroute this level by trapping the Lemmings on the "pillar" at the beginning and building up towards the wall straight away - which worked. Therefore some steel needed to be added in the upper regions to cut off this shortcut.
The Mummy. See earlier post: When I had only seen Nepster's replays, I was fine with a timing based solution, but when nin10adict did the same, I decided that was way too fast and easy :) . Some canopic jars have been added at the bottom to shorten the distance the zombie can walk in case he is released to go down there. Also, the release rate has been locked, so that you can't compress the Lemmings to sneak by the zombie in a horde.
Down the drain. Saving requirement increased to make the solution a little more specific.
I want to believe. Thickened the one-way pillar so that it can't be bombed through.
We are the Lempions. The Lemmings from the left hatch are no longer pre-assigned climbers, but regular Lemmings.
You want it, you got it! Lowered the skill count and increased the saving requirement to make this more worthy of rank 4.
Fire in the hole. Swapped a piece of terrain for more steel to enforce a specific solution.
Lem in motion. Made the swimmer a pick-up skill as well and added a little structure on the left, to make it a little more relevant which skill is assigned when. Also, one of the exits was removed, so a little trick has to be done to save one of the cloned lemmings. Still a fairly easy level I guess, but now there are a few more pitfalls (pun intended ;) possible.
Walking in Lemphis. Increased the saving requirement to factor in the cloners, so that you can't let any lemmings die.
Going down the hard way. Made the stoner a pickup skill to enforce my intended solution. Now the level name is even more fitting, because you have to go down to get the "hard" stoner :D .
You reap what you sow. Added steel to prevent going underneath the entire level.
Icing on the cake. This one has a completely different solution now, because a certain number of builders will always break this level. Once again, I actively tried to backroute this level myself after all these changes. And while I found out this way that there still is an alternative solution which avoids the slowfreeze completely, it requires almost all the skills, too, plus precise placement and some skills paying double-duty. So feel free to choose whichever one you prefer :) . If you hate slowfreeze, view it as a trap and go around it. If you love it, view it as a tool and use it!
Man shields. Still not sure whether this thing is entirely backroute-proof now, but at least you can't dig down at the end anymore.
Builder buddies. This is one of the levels which would have benefitted from a deadly ceiling - so I made one :) .
Copycats. Filled the gaps in the steel, where terrain had formerly been, with further steel blocks.
Three Lems, one stomper. Made this a 1 of everything level to make it a little more confusing what you have to do; also added some steel, to make the timing of assigning certain skills slightly more relevant. Again, still a very easy solution, but I hope I could hide it in plain sight now :) . Probably won't work on the more seasoned ones among you, though.
Acrobatic endeavors. Added vertical firetraps to cut off a high route.
Lemmings of Troy. Added some steel in the castle. You're not supposed to be able to dig straight down :) . Apart from that, nin10adict's solution was exactly as intended.
Another stunt maneuver. The second circus level which required vertical firetraps. Which simultaneously make this look even more like a circus artists' stunt performance! :D
Speedy Lembert. The fencer pickup skill was entirely redundant due to the Lemming being a climber at that moment already. So I just removed it.
White Wilderness. The builders aren't needed, yet they provided the option of creating a basher trap, holding back the crowd so you don't have to stall. Now all the builders are gone without any replacement! :)
And now for some things I purposefully
didn't change:
Spoiler
Check mate. Hasn't changed its position :) . The reason is that once you've figured out a trick which works, you simply have to repeat it over and over again, there's nothing new, because the terrain itself is completely homogenous by design. Figuring this trick out may be somewhat hard for some, but then again I as the creator had to figure this solution out for myself, too: With the only premise having been "I'll make a level which looks like a chessboard and has 15 of each classic skill", there was no specific solution I had in mind which I just had to apply, I had to do trial and error, just like the player, and found this solution pretty quickly.
Crossing the Nile. I have no idea how to prevent compression methods here. Even with a locked release rate, you can still compress the Lemmings between stoners. The intended solution is probably just so complex and skill-thirsty that even with the minimum number of skills provided, a much more efficient solution will always be possible.
Disintegrated. It's still possible to go either to the right or the left. The left solution requires more skills, the right solution however takes two worker lemmings, i.e. multitasking. You're free to pick your poison for this one :) .
A trip to Yugoslemmia. If you figure out the way to trap the Lemmings here, you shall be rewarded for this by not having to stall :D .
Get a foothold. I left the "delicious cheese" nin10adict has found for this level in here, because the idea to do that is at least as crazy as the actual execution of the intended solution! :thumbsup:
Once again a huge thank you to nin10adict for his very entertaining Let's Play of this pack! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: There were more remaining backroutes than I had thought. But that just means even more could be rooted out now! :D
To everyone who played the updated version and wants to take a look at the fixed levels, the changelog is there to tell you which levels specifically might be worth addressing again.
For people who played the very first iteration of this pack and haven't had any contact with it since... I guess almost every level has changed by now :D . So in that case, decide for yourself whether it's worthy of an entire new playthrough.
And of course, please keep reporting any potential backroutes you discover! :) As I recently found out myself, even old classics of custom packs like Nepster Lems and Sub Lems are never truly finished, but always remain a work in progress.
I've just glossed over the levels in this pack again using nin10adict's Let's Play, and the average quality of these levels was, albeit not on-par with what I've created for Lemmings World Tour or the packs I'm currently developing, still a lot higher than I remembered. Thus, I've deemed this pack worthy of conversion to New Formats! :thumbsup:
This will most likely take place after the stable release of version 12.7, because I want to be able to at least salvage the levels involving anti-splat pads.
The radiation and slowfreeze levels, which there are more of in this pack than in Lemmings World Tour or Paralems, will be removed from the New-Formats version. Altering the solution isn't really viable, especially since the best radiation/slowfreeze level in here, LOTY nominee "Controlled overload", already is a rerun of a previous level without radiation and slowfreeze ("The long way down").
Now there's the question of how to replace these. The average level quality of Paralems is much lower, so I thought about selecting the best levels from Paralems and putting them in place of the radiation and slowfreeze levels from Pit Lems. Then again, there are most likely a couple more good or at least passable Paralems levels than there are radiation and slowfreeze levels in Pit Lems.
I could fill up the ranks from 20 to 30 levels - with five ranks, this would extend Pit Lems from 100 to 150 levels, just like Paralems, but it would only contain the best third of Paralems levels, with any remaining slots being patched out by Lemmicks levels that still work in New Formats.
So I'd essentially create a Lemmings Redux out of my first three packs, which would otherwise remain restricted to Old Formats. This is not a best-of in the strict sense, because nothing from Lemmings World Tour would be included - it would just be a way of porting all the best remaining levels of mine to New Formats in one fell swoop.
Levels that appear on the Encore rank of World Tour can be included, though, since that rank already is a miniature collection of levels from these three packs. The difference is that the levels on the Encore rank were not at all selected for quality, but only based on their level titles alluding to songs, which goes along with the rest of World Tour.
I'd probably call the resulting New-Formats pack "Pit Lems Remastered", in analogy to Lemmings World Tour Remastered, because levels from Pit Lems would make up the majority of the pack. Therefore, it doesn't really make sense to me to call it something more generic, like "Stratolems" or similar ;) .
Once the stable release of version 12.7 is here, conversion of this pack should go comparatively quickly, at least compared with World Tour, because
a) the pack is much shorter
b) all the missing tilesets I have already converted for World Tour
c) not a lot of levels involve interactions with the ceiling, so there's no need for a lot of re-edits to add solid ceilings to levels that need them.
In fact, the deadly ceiling even breaks some backroutes that I originally fixed by adding the horizontal lightning traps (fire objects) from namida's Sky tileset! :evil:
So if you find the freshly-converted Lemmings World Tour too hard, stay tuned for the conversion of Pit Lems! ;) It's quite a bit easier, not relying so much on skill tricks and specific combinations, while still being puzzly, rather than as execution- and flavour-based as Paralems. And the last levels might even give people who can handle Lemmings World Tour some "hard nuts to crack"! ;)
Radiation and Slowfreeze levels to be removed from Pit Lems Remastered
- Annihilation station (LOL 13)
- Petrification station (LOL 14)
- Airborne aid (WTF 11)
- Fire extinguisher (WTF 19)
- Controlled overload (OMFG 05)
- Icing on the cake (OMFG 15)
- Man shields (OMFG 17)
- Get a foothold (FML 09)
- A level of ice and fire (FML 15)
So that's almost 10% of the pack getting lost during conversion. Maybe I can save "A level of ice and fire", although the slowfreeze is quite a bit integral to the solution, and simply replacing it with a stoner pickup skill will make the level much easier, i.e. much less deserving of being in the final rank. The same is true for "Get a foothold". I thought about trying to save "Controlled overload" somehow, but the main trick at the beginning is really the same as during the first iteration, "The long way down".
These 9 levels are going to be filled up first with the best puzzles from Lemmicks, because they are of higher average quality than those from Paralems, and there are less Lemmicks levels overall that are going to work in New Formats without gimmicks.
Priority will be given to levels that don't already appear on the Encore rank of Lemmings World Tour, because I want to avoid redundancy wherever possible. Hence, for example, a level like "Here comes the flood" from the Lemmicks Moist rank, even though I consider it a very good level, is not going to be added to Pit Lems Remastered, because it is already included as a bonus level in LWT. Thus, it has more opportunity to shine in LWT, and another additional level can be "saved" from Old Formats in its place.
Lemmicks levels to be added to Pit Lems Remastered as replacement
- Why did you doubt? (Basic 04)
- The 8 commandments (Basic 05)
- Do not fear (Basic 06)
- Eye of the needle (Basic 13)
- Pickup artists (Basic 14)
- Lemming Sudoku (Basic 18)
- The tree of knowledge (Basic 20)
- Save our stuff! (Moist 03)
- Tick Tock (Moist 07)
That's pretty much all the levels from Lemmicks that would still work in New Formats, at least with regard to the ranks covered by Flopsy's Lemmicks LP. There may be some levels on the higher Lemmicks rank that would work in New Formats with some slight modification, I'd have to check again.
"Tick Tock" is going to need some slight modification - for example, a Climber will be needed to get a Swimmer out of a water pit, since that water doesn't rise anymore in New Formats. Also, most of the Lemmicks levels are going to require not only solid ceilings (due to the change to deadly ceilings from 10.13 to New Formats), but also solid level sides in the first place (due to the change to deadly sides between 1.43 and 10.13)! :D
So I have two options for Pit Lems remastered:a) Keep it at 100 levels as just a combination of Pit Lems and Lemmicks. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "Pit Lemmicks" then :D , because not enough of Lemmicks characteristic levels would be present. But those 9 levels mentioned above would simply replace the radiation- and slowfreeze levels, everything else would remain the same.
b) Extend the ranks to 30 levels each, and thereby the pack to 150 levels. This would allow to save select quality levels from Paralems, as well as a couple more from Lemmicks.
Further levels I consider adding to Pit Lems Remastered
From Lemmicks
- Gates of Heaven (Basic rank)
- An arrowr in the level design? (Circular rank)
- Coming soon: Shimmiers (Eternal rank)
- Ignorance is bliss (Ephemeral rank)
- Ceiling your fate (Nostalgic rank)
- That's all you're left with (Nostalgic rank)
From Paralems- Taming the Beast / The Menagerie
- Suomalainen Lemminkainen
- Three waves of Lemminism
- Praise KeK
- The Phantom Lemace
- A staircase of skulls
- Have you seen my screwdriver?
- Volunteers first!
- Staircase to Armageddon
- Lemmigration quotas
- Welcome to Hell!
- Lemmings epiginetics / Shock absorber
- The Death Titan / The Titan returns
- Triathlon / The Olempic Games
- Point me to my training course
- Face the Hydra
- ELemEnts
- The prison cells
- The docks
- Snakes and ladders
- Apocalems Now
- Journey to Emeria
- Don't lock me in!
- Sneak past the guards
- Pull the plug
- We are not invited?
- Help! Get the ratcatcher!
- Buried knowledge
- Beam me up, Lemmy!
- Aerial bombardement
- Rest for the Wicked
- Make yourself useful
- Can you get it for me in time?
- Break my fall
- Six heroes, one destiny
- Synchronized performance
- Painful Parkour
- Maze of omnipotence
- IT'S FEEDING TIME!
- Winter is here
Those are exactly 50 levels. So just off the top of my head, I could indeed create this 150-level version of Pit Lems. And it would only feature the best puzzles from these three packs, plus maybe a couple of levels which would merely be present for aesthetic purposes, such as the ridiculously easy, but somehow quite popular "Death Titan" ;) .
For some levels, though, I'd have to see how well that "hiding traps behind animals" thing, which is kind of typical of Paralems, works in New Formats. Animals made of terrain, like the Highland Nessy, shouldn't be as much of a problem as animals that are already traps, like crocodiles or snakes.
Then again, the main problem with my Nessy trap is that the ONML Rock chameleon, which I used for that, has been made one complete object in New Formats, rather than having the chameleon's head as a separate object. So I might have to add the head to my strato_generalmd tileset again. :D One level in Lemmings World Tour would also profit from that - it currently looks horrible, with entire chameleons all over the place...
And, of course, from Paralems I'm going to try and save as many of the decent zombie levels as possible!
If you remember any of your favourite levels from Paralems or Lemmicks that you'd like to see in this extended, New-Formats version of Pit Lems, now is the time to tell me! ;)
Keep in mind the main goal of the conversion of Pit Lems is to provide some more beginner-to-intermediate content for New Formats, which currently mainly offers high-difficulty packs.
Finally, I do still plan to put all radiation- and slowfreeze levels of mine together into a short compilation called Nuclear Winter (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3868.0). Naturally, this will have to be done in Old Formats (10.13),
but it technically isn't new content for an outdated version.
I'd just like to gather all of them in one place, so that people who play the New-Formats version of Pit Lems or Lemmings World Tour can specifically play the missing levels if they're interested, rather than having to download the entire packs Pit Lems and Lemmings World Tour for both Old and New Formats just to find them.
Just started playing this pack yesterday, and I managed to finish the first 3 ranks in about 3-4 hours. Instead of wait until I finish the pack first before sending replays, I'm going to send my replays now just because I don't want to waste 6 hours of my day writing feedback like I did with Paralems. So, here are my replays for the LOL, ROFL, and the WTF ranks.
My thoughts on the pack so far:Wow, this pack is a lot better and considerably harder than Paralems, similar to how ONML is an expansion pack to the original Lemmings and is much harder. Just like nin10doadict said, Pit Lems immediately starts really hard, so that the LOL rank reminded me of the Basic rank of Lemmicks, where these two ranks are still no pushovers despite being the first ranks. However, Lemmicks was released after Pit Lems, and so the Basic rank was more well done, especially with the pre-texts. Here, the pre-texts are not as detailed, but being a way more puzzily pack than Paralems, I can understand why you did that. There were still occasional breather levels in the ranks, but for the most part the levels are quite challenging and difficult. The pack has definitely lived up to its expectations of being very fair with a lot of great puzzles that I absolutely enjoyed. So far, I haven't been bored or annoyed with the pack at all, both of which I found myself a lot with Paralems, so that's a really good sign that Pit Lems is considerably better than Paralems. Practically all the levels I have played so far have been quite excellent and have given me quite a good challenge in a really good way. Makes me all the more glad that I decided to take on the pack after all ;)
Now on to feedback for the individual ranks.
LOL rank
As mentioned previously, the rank already starts off quite difficult with the very first level. I enjoyed almost all of these challenges a lot and I definitely felt most of them were appropriate challenges for me that has allowed me to stay thorougly engaged with the pack and weren't frustrating at all.
LOL 1 - The art of destruction It's not a really hard level by any means, but definitely much more difficult than how most packs start off, especially how you can only lose 1 lemming and so make the wrong skill choice at the start and you'll have lemmings turning back, as well as make it impossible to complete the level.
LOL 2 - Be creative is also another difficult level, although I used exactly what I did with Harmless 3 of Paralems with the stackers.
LOL 3 - Dead Lems tell no tales is the first non-challenging level of the pack where it's possible to have some skills leftover with a lenient save requirement. It then goes back to
LOL 4 - Athletic Aesthetics being another difficult level that requires a lot of thought on which exit each lemming needs to go to. At the same time, I probably made the level harder than necessary on myself. It was a bit frustrating working out the timing.
LOL 5 - On the fence can be challenging, but only if the player is not aware that fencing into steel causes the lemming to turn around.
LOL 6 - Blocking all over the world is quite challenging, although I might had backrouted the level since I have several skills leftover. I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of the fencer is on this level.
LOL 7 - Candyland climber isn't a difficult level by any means, but the timing of cloning the basher is a bit tricky. Consider making that a little easier. Nothing to say about
LOL 8 - Lemorials other than that it's easier than most of the previous training levels and the solution is simply stone each lemming that comes at the appropriate place.
LOL 9 - I'm going to make you mine requires some thought on which single-use traps to trigger and which ones to avoid, but fortunately there aren't that many choices/possibilities, so it shouldn't take too long to stumble upon the solution.
LOL 10 - Base Jumping Somewhat challenging, but still an excellent puzzle with a nice solution.
LOL 11 - Sadistic choice Good level that's not difficult, but it does require a bit of thought to solve.
LOL 12- All you need is time Too easy, probably the easiest level so far in the rank.
LOL 13 - Annihilation station Back to tricky that requires a lot of thought on how to get the bombers to the appropriate places to get the crowd down safely as well as to the exit. Still, nice level.
LOL 14 - Petrification station The slowfreeze version of LOL 13 and much harder. The main challenge is figuring out how to time and get the stoners to the right places to get the crowd down safely to the exit, as well as how to make the crowd avoid walking into the slowfreeze trap. It is a nice puzzle that I somewhat enjoyed figuring out, but I think I like the radiation level better. The tileset has a downside in that it's very difficult to tell what's a trap.
LOL 15 - Release me Despite being a 2 of everything level, it's quite tricky figuring out how to get to every button. Nice puzzle, though.
LOL 16 - You learn it, you earn it! I have to say that this level is a huge step up in difficulty compared to any of the other previous levels of the rank. At first, I thought the level was impossible because I thought the pillar immediately to the left of the entrance was connected to the ceiling and so there's no way to send the climber. Turns out I forgot the grey border that's shown is the ceiling due to my default zoom level, while the black area below it is empty space that lemmings can walk in. I wonder if the floater pick-up is a decoy and if my solution is intended or not.
LOL 17 - Screwing around Pretty easy, but that's probably because I might had backrouted the level. Then again, this is probably a anyway you want level.
LOL 18 - Ouch, my head! Easy as well. I love the delay tactics needed in this level! Well done :thumbsup:
LOL 19 - Apraxia Ah, this is the no skills level you were referring to in the release post. Definitely easier than the corresponding no skills level from the Demented rank of Paralems. I think there might be a range of RR's that can work here. Here, I used a 95 RR.
LOL 20 - Stop right there Excellent level to finish off the rank!
ROFL rank
A lot of these were really great puzzles, although some I didn't enjoy as much.
ROFL 1 - Honey pie More tricky than difficult, but still somewhat a nice puzzle to start off the rank.
ROFL 2 - That's right Nice puzzle that seems to be a anyway you want level. The first level of the pack to have an excessive amount of skills and to be left with a lot in the end.
ROFL 3 - Step up Somewhat difficult and tricky that still manages to be a bit open-ended. I think the wall height is a bit too punishing, especially since 3 stackers is just barely enough to get them up. In my solution, all the stacks were interrupted at the 6th brick, and the total height was exactly 6 pixels, so one less and both sides wouldn't be able to get up. Also, levels that have an abundance of stackers to get up tend to be the most difficult for me, so this was one of the levels that I didn't enjoy as much as most of the others in the rank.
ROFL 4 - The stock market Nice standard puzzle of isolating a pioneer to forge the path and then release with a fencer.
ROFL 5 - Transporter malfunction Difficult level where all teleporters lead to a bad outcome. This was a bit of an annoying level for me. Not sure if my solution is intended.
ROFL 6 - Basic economics Nice level! Guess I got the timing right so that no lemmings were walking to the left by the time the digger broke through the bottom floor at the top
ROFL 7 - Beware of collectivism Nice tricky level of figuring out how to manage and keep all the different special groups safe: Climbers, floaters, and swimmers. I really enjoyed this one.
ROFL 8 - Doubling down The only very tricky part of this level was the digging and bombing to make a safe drop. Besides that, this can be a tricky and difficult level for most players.
ROFL 9 - The wall (Part III) Picks up again from the two consecutive The wall levels from Paralems. Nice easy level.
ROFL 10 - The long way down Another nice and easy level. The only tricky part is figuring out how to get to the anti-splat pad on the bottom. Luckily, it's just a simple use of a cloner before the last In teleporter. Thanks for making the anti-splat pad inside the wall visible.
ROFL 11 - Wraparound travel I might had backrouted the level. Easy level, though.
ROFL 12 - Lems off the wall Another nice and easy level, although once again repetitive climber skill assignment to 20 lemmings. Not as bad as 40 or more, but still.
ROFL 13 - Let's play Quidditch Ah, a Harry Potter fan I see. I'll be honest, I'm only on the second book. Yup, waste of my childhood. I was never huge on reading. I have seen some of the films, though. I understand the purpose of them being preassigned gliders, as that's how the game is played in the book and the movies. Yet another nice and easy level that's still somewhat open-ended despite the very restricted skillset.
ROFL 14 - Na zdorovje Lem Not sure what the title means. Somewhat tricky level in that it's a bit tricky to isolate a single worker lemming. Nice level, though.
ROFL 15 - Out of the frying pan I do believe there is a level in a Dos level pack with the same title. Nice and easy level!
ROFL 16 - Cannibal cave Somewhat easy level, although the skillset is still quite restricted despite appearing to be leninent.
ROFL 17 - Perpetuum Mobilem Unless this is intended, this seems like a really bad backroute which I solved via compression. Still an easy level, though.
ROFL 18 - Up the garden path A bit trickier than the surrounding levels, but still not that bad. Nice level.
ROFL 19 - Skies and Sand Very nice and somewhat easy level despite the huge size. Once you are successful in isolating the special groups to the right half of the level, the gliders at the top, swimmers at the bottom, the rest is easy. The skillset itself isn't too restricted despite appearing to be so, especially with the ones that you have 5 of.
ROFL 20 - An all new challenge! Nice puzzle that is difficult and hence is quite appropriate for the rank finisher. In my first couple of attempts, I was short of platformers or short of a fencer or stoner, but I was able to figure it out and solve the level ;)
WTF rank
The levels and puzzles continue to be awesome here! :thumbsup:
WTF 1 - The mummy This is like the corresponding Abhorrent 1 level from Paralems, being a zombie introduction level. Nice and easy level to begin the rank once more.
WTF 2 - How to be impractical More tricky than difficult but still somewhat easy. Several concepts here: stoner stepping stone for building, stacker staircase, and stacker/stoner staircase.
WTF 3 - Mountain Rescue Very easy and nice level!
WTF 4 - Check mate Chess fan too? This was quite a tricky level despite being a 15-of-everything level. The most difficult part was making sure that you're not being wasteful with your builders, as they're in quite short supply despite seeming like a lot.
WTF 5 - C(l)on(e) fusion Nice puzzle that requires a bit of thought on the proper sequence to do the level, as well as how to rescue the cloned climber. I wonder if one of the fencers is a decoy.
WTF 6 - Under construction Nice 1-of-everything level! My only critique of the level is how part of the top part of the splitter is hidden from view.
WTF 7 - The overseers Nice puzzle! Once again, compression to get the group tightly together, as well as propr timing, to reduce the risk of infection from the zombies.
WTF 8 - Mission impossible Definitely not impossible and not hard at all, although the lemmings still being able to exit despite the exit trigger area being inside steel is quite amusing. Nice puzzle level once more.
WTF 9 - Another rescue mission Once again too easy just like WTF 3 and not that much different other than cloning a digger and bashing while inside the digger pit.
WTF 10 - Down the drain Another nice and easy level
WTF 11 - Airborne aid More tricky than difficult, with the timing needing to be worked out so that the slowfreeze provides a safe drop for both left hatches. I think I certainly could had made it a bit easier by bombing where the updrafts are, as the place I bombed is nearly splat height.
WTF 12 - I want to believe Another tricky level. Isolating 5 lemmings is not easy to do, but that's pretty much the only tricky thing to do for the level. Once you manage to do that, the rest of the level is easy.
WTF 13 - Arigato, Lemming-san! What a really pretty and nice looking level! :thumbsup: Too easy and nice puzzle.
WTF 14 - Connecting the dots Unless you realize that you must take the path through the ceiling terrain, it may look impossible to most players. Nice puzzle!
WTF 15 - Crossing the Nile Somewhat difficult level, considering that this is the first level I've played where swimmers encounter trap trigger areas, which they apparently can't disarm while swimming but can if they're performing a task, like mining or platforming. I think this can throw off a lot of people. It certainly did with me. Then again, I think this illustrates a huge mechincs difference between Old Formats and New Formats. Though, I think there was one United level where a disarmer disarmed a trap while it was building, so maybe there's no inconsistency at all. What is consistent is not being able to disarm while climbing, as I remember there was one United level that I tried that with a climber.
WTF 16 - Not the same but yet as one Now this one was difficult but a very nice puzzle this was! :thumbsup: The only tricky part was making sure only two lemmings slip by the first builder.
WTF 17 - We are the Lempions More tricky than difficult but still a really nice puzzle.
WTF 18 - Free-floating tent Nice and easy level that requires the solid ceiling in the solution. I think this is what will throw players off, considering that it's not deadly in Old Formats but is deadly in New Formats. Also, various platforms are inconsistent about whether the ceiling is safe or deadly, so that's another factor too in confusing players.
WTF 19 - Fire extinguisher Ok, I was a bit annoyed with this at first, but it turns out that I simply approached the level wrong. Once I realized that I could make it easier on myself by having a lemming drop and glide from the top, I was able to solve the level more easily. Nice puzzle in that the most tricky part is figuring out how to get across the fire pit gap. Once done, it's an auto solve if you managed to have met or exceeded the save requirement. The fall at the end looks like splat height, but it's not.
WTF 20 - Glueck auf! Nice miner cancelling puzzle to finish off the rank! The timing of sending a climber to circle back to mine the obstacles to release the crowd, as well as to send climbers to cancel the miner, is a bit tricky, but you at least provided a couple of climbers to make it a bit easier.
Took me about 3 hours this time to write the feedback. That's about half the time it took me to write the feedback for Paralems, so it's certainly an improvement from sending just a few ranks this time as compared to waiting until I finish the pack before giving feedback. Perhaps I can cut down the time even more by not giving feedback for every single level, as you know I'm very detail-oriented, so even if I skip some feedback for some levels it's still going to take me a while.
2 ranks left, 40 levels to go! I'll likely be able to finish off the rest of the pack later on today Then that will make two packs of yours that I have finished within a week ;)
thanks for the replays for the 1st 3 ranks. Only the 1st rank replays that were posted before yours worked. The other ranks most failed. So I appreciate you doing Pitlems. Hopefully I'll be able to update my list for old formats packs I have replays for. I did a mass replay check on all 3. And although the 1st rank was all already green the other 2 were not until now. Although I have'nt watched any of your's yet I will tomorrow (actually later today)
You're welcome. It's a much shorter pack and so I'm breezing through it rather quickly and might be able to finish it later on today despite how it's a lot harder than Paralems. I assume you also got my replays for that pack?
Yesum. And although I had Paralems replays turned green already from other peoples posted ones, I still downloaded yours and even watched your already too.
EDIT: And even when the Mass replay checker says they pass, I still have to watch them, because sometimes people(especially Joshcue18) never wants to Nuke his blocker if needed at the end of levels.
So if that happens I fix them so the blockers(or unsaved lemmings get nuked). Joshcue18 never seems to do this in any of his replays even for other packs. and it's annoying.
Quote from: ericderkovits on September 26, 2020, 11:28:49 AM
Yesum. And although I had Paralems replays turned green already from other peoples posted ones, I still downloaded yours and even watched your already too.
Cheers, sir! :thumbsup: No worries if you didn't, just that I know you love getting them from me. Since my replays are fresh and I can obviously verify they all work, a mass replay check isn't needed. The purpose of it is to simply and quickly verify which ones still work (passed), which ones broke (failed), and which ones may or may not have been broken (undetermined).
Quote
EDIT: And even when the Mass replay checker says they pass, I still have to watch them, because sometimes people(especially Joshcue18) never wants to Nuke his blocker if needed at the end of levels.
So if that happens I fix them so the blockers(or unsaved lemmings get nuked). Joshcue18 never seems to do this in any of his replays even for other packs. and it's annoying.
To be fair, nuking remaining lemmings at the end when the save requirement has been met or exceeded isn't necessary, especially since the main parts of the solution has already been seen, and so really nuking is simply at the player's discretion. If the replays work, then it doesn't matter if the person decides to nuke or not. Therefore, unless the nuke IS required in the solution (there are some great levels out there that require nuking as part of the solution), most of the time it isn't integral to the solution at all. Not to mention that it's always faster to simply exit the level via the esc key. I understand your frustration with those that don't nuke at the end, though, but it should just be a minor point. When it comes to nuking, it kind of grew out of habit for me. Especially since it's really fun to hear the "Oh no's" and the resulting popping explosion sound and see the resulting fireworks display on screen.
Thanks for playing, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear you seem to have had a lot more fun with this than with Paralems. I kind of have to say "I told you so"... :P I think I pointed you to Pit Lems right away and warned you that Paralems might not really be worth your while. But at least, now you know why! :D
I haven't had a chance to look at your replays yet, but I can already provide some comments on your remarks about select levels.
LOL
"The art of destruction" and "Being creative": These are the first levels of my "new" puzzle-making style that indeed started with Pit Lems, so they're perfect to demonstrate what this pack is all about. Even though Pit Lems does features X-of-everything levels - that was just me catering to community demands, or what I perceived as such - I think I've stated often enough that I dislike those. Instead, smaller puzzles where all the skills are accounted for are much more rewarding to me. There's a unique feeling of everything falling into place nicely when you use the last skill on the panel and the path to the exit is finished. :thumbsup: A feeling that doesn't really occur for me when I look at the panel and think "...and I still had all deez!" 8)
Sometimes, I tend to think levels with small skill panels are too easy, or that it's too obvious where everything has to go, because of course it's much easier to maintain the overview and keep track of the skills on a smaller panel. But if even you didn't consider these first two levels easy, maybe this worry of mine is unwarranted. :thumbsup: The idea of starting with small puzzles with tightly limited skill counts right away is something I took from Nessy's "Lemmings Migration": A pack that can easily stump you on its first couple of levels, but if it doesn't, or it only does for a short while, it's much more rewarding than many other larger packs out there. Lemmings Migration is still up there among my favourite packs, along with SubLems! It's also not very long, so give it a try if you haven't yet! ;)
Athletic aesthetics: Yeah, this level is really pretty hard for its position. It's more of a thematic choice (1: destructive skills, 2: creative skills, 3: lethal skills, 4: athletic skills) to position it this early. If I were to re-create the pack today, I'd probably change its position - and I might do so after all, in Pit Lems Remastered. Since some levels from Paralems and Lemmicks are thrown into the mix for that, all the level positions change anyway. But for Pit Lems proper, at this stage I don't want to mess up people's replays by swapping around level positions. This can be precisely one of those early roadblocks, like in Lemmings Migration, that hit you early and out of nowhere.
Blocking all over the world: This level has been fixed a bunch of times and yet people still find ways to backroute it. :P I think you might have played an older version, though: I remember fixing the instance of this level on Lemmings World Tour (where it's part of the Professional rank, not actually of Encore, because it's such a well-known song, and a puzzle I quite like). But I'm pretty sure I hadn't fixed the Pit Lems original version yet.
Candyland Climber: This is one of the Lemmings-3D remakes mentioned in the starting post. The Cloner just adds some slight variation to it, and yes, that is indeed the most challenging part, because that's the part I added to it. ;) In Lemmings 3D, this level is on the Fun rank, i.e. not supposed to be difficult at all.
All you need is time: Just supposed to introduce splitters, not made to be difficult at all.
You learn it, you earn it!: Funny, I actually thought this level was slightly easier than some of the preceding ones. I don't remember nin10doadict struggling with this one in particular during his Let's Play. Good to know - and nice to hear - that it was somewhat of a challenge for you, though! ;)
ROFL
I'm not quite sure what you mean in general when you say "more tricky than difficult". Does this refer to execution troubles, as opposed to puzzle troubles? ;) Or are these just terms for subjectively different levels of a challenge?
Let's play Quidditch: This is the closest thing to a Paralems level that Pit Lems has (aside from maybe the level "Wasted talent", which is a fairer version of the ultimate-trolling level "Trust No 1" from Paralems). Because it's a book / movie reference, and the level justifies its presence through that, more so than through its mechanical challenge.
Na zdorovje Lem: This is a reference to a song by famous German comedian Otto Waalkes, "Nastrovje wom". "Na zdorovje" is often misunderstood to be Russian for "cheers"; it actually seems to be used more commonly to say "you're welcome". "Zdorovje" by itself just means "health". A Polish colleague of mine told me though that "na zdrowie" is indeed used to say "cheers" in Polish. So maybe, that German comedian Otto Waalkes was referring to something Polish instead of something Russian. Anyways, I've spelled it the Russian way. And believe it or not, somebody in the comments of nin10doadict's Let's Play actually got the reference! :D (IIRC, it was a German viewer as well, though. I doubt that many people outside the German-speaking countries know Otto Waalkes. But in turn, it's probably hard to find anyone in these countries who doesn't know him.)
PS: Because this is technically a song, the level also appears on the Encore rank of LWT. It's certainly one of the better puzzles in the Encore rank, while others were mainly just chosen for their title.
WTF
Check mate: nin10doadict considered this the hardest level of the pack, and it was the last one he solved. I placed it here because, once you get the main trick, due to the terrain shape, you can just keep repeating that trick to solve the level. But yes, this is one of the few X-of-everything levels I made that I actually still like. It goes to show how "iffy" terrain shapes can provide such a challenge in and of themselves that even having a plethora of skills, and the many degrees of freedom that go along with that, don't really help you all that much. I've certainly found some levels in Lemmings Plus I now that adhere to this principle. namida seems to be much better at creating this particular type of "any-way-you-want" level than I am.
Airborne aid: I think you're the first one not to be annoyed by this level. :thumbsup: Slowfreeze for the win!
Glück auf (yes, that's how you actually spell it, but the NeoLemmix font doesn't cut it yet :P ): I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that apparently, you were able to pull off the Miner-cancel trick with Climbers.
Back during his Let's Play, I told nin10doadict this wasn't possible, and I even based a Lemmicks level from the Ephemeral rank, "Ignorance is bliss", on this belief. (You had to send up a Climber first, and then perform the Miner cancel trick with that lemming, which now no longer was a Climber, and I believed this was necessary to be able to do the Miner-cancel trick in the first place.)
Consequently, nin10doadict rightfully criticised that this level introduces the player to a corner-case of the Miner-cancel trick right away (=with Climbers), instead of to its "pure form". Because even though he knew about the trick, he wasn't able to pull it off with the Climbers. The intended solution doesn't use them either - it requires releasing the crowd into the tunnel so that one of the regular lemmings can perform the Miner-cancel trick. Of course, nin10doadict was able to do this - but only after I had told him that Climbers couldn't perform the trick.
Later on, while testing the penultimate level of the Legend rank of Lemmings World Tour, I found out that it is indeed possible for a Climber to perform the Miner-cancel trick. It just seems to be much more unlikely, because the Climber wastes time by "hugging" the end of the mine shaft, whereas a regular lemming turns around immediately.
That said, "Glück auf" technically isn't the first level to introduce the Miner-cancel trick: It's already part of the intended solution to "Doubling down". However, that level allowed for an alternative solution, which I wasn't aware of, but nin10doadict used. Hence, he could bypass the necessity to "learn" the Miner-cancel trick in its "standard form", so that when "Glück auf" hit him with the corner case of Climbers + Miner-cancel trick, it hit him out of nowhere. :evil:
Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 29, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
Thanks for playing, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear you seem to have had a lot more fun with this than with Paralems. I kind of have to say "I told you so"... :P I think I pointed you to Pit Lems right away and warned you that Paralems might not really be worth your while. But at least, now you know why! :D
Yes, Pit Lems is many times way better than Paralems. I love almost all of the puzzles I have played so far. I definitely blame this on my completist personality. To be fair, I did say that I doubt that I would be bored with Paralems or that I wouldn't mind the things that most of the community frowns upon in the pack. Nope, I was very wrong. Also, once I start playing something, I have to finish it to the end. Personally, I consider leaving things on the table unfinished not good. Figuratively, of course. I use my example of my schooling. I took classes towards a teaching credential program at the post-baccalaureate school I attended after I finished my undergrad, but unfortunately I got rejected from the program. I then switched my objective to doing a master's degree, which I finished in 2 1/2 years. I took the next two years off, having been exhausted from doing a master's degree. In case you haven't had the experience of doing grad school, take it from me, it is always very exhausting finishing any kind of graduate degree. Sometime during my second year off from school, I reflected back on how I started work towards the teaching credential program that I never finished. With this, I was determined and decided to come back to school to finish the work I started. I was successful in getting into the credential program, and I proceeded to finish up and get my actual teaching credential just last year.
So yea, once I start something, I have to finish the job/work I started. Just part of my personality :P Pretty much why I was very determined to solve all of United despite how the extremely high difficulty kept getting to me in the final two main ranks, but especially the final main rank.
Response to your Remarks on the LOL rank
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LOL
"The art of destruction" and "Being creative": These are the first levels of my "new" puzzle-making style that indeed started with Pit Lems, so they're perfect to demonstrate what this pack is all about. Even though Pit Lems does features X-of-everything levels - that was just me catering to community demands, or what I perceived as such - I think I've stated often enough that I dislike those. Instead, smaller puzzles where all the skills are accounted for are much more rewarding to me. There's a unique feeling of everything falling into place nicely when you use the last skill on the panel and the path to the exit is finished. :thumbsup: A feeling that doesn't really occur for me when I look at the panel and think "...and I still had all deez!" 8)
Sometimes, I tend to think levels with small skill panels are too easy, or that it's too obvious where everything has to go, because of course it's much easier to maintain the overview and keep track of the skills on a smaller panel. But if even you didn't consider these first two levels easy, maybe this worry of mine is unwarranted. :thumbsup: The idea of starting with small puzzles with tightly limited skill counts right away is something I took from Nessy's "Lemmings Migration": A pack that can easily stump you on its first couple of levels, but if it doesn't, or it only does for a short while, it's much more rewarding than many other larger packs out there. Lemmings Migration is still up there among my favourite packs, along with SubLems! It's also not very long, so give it a try if you haven't yet! ;)
Yea, depending on the level, even very small levels with a very restricted skillset can be deceivingly difficult, like with the very first two levels of the pack.
You can consider them difficult levels in disguise even though they give the appearance of being an easy level. I personally don't mind X of everything levels or ones with a very open skillset. If anything, I especially consider the latter levels a very nice occasional breather from all the very difficult ones when it does show up. At the same time, it does depend on the level, because there are still those where even though the skillset may look very open, in actuality is very restricted and tight. There's plenty of that in United, but having played and solved every single level in the pack, save for a couple in the Pacifism rank, every level had a very tight skillset.
And yes, I do eventually plan to take on Nessy's Lemmings Migration :P
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Athletic aesthetics: Yeah, this level is really pretty hard for its position. It's more of a thematic choice (1: destructive skills, 2: creative skills, 3: lethal skills, 4: athletic skills) to position it this early. If I were to re-create the pack today, I'd probably change its position - and I might do so after all, in Pit Lems Remastered. Since some levels from Paralems and Lemmicks are thrown into the mix for that, all the level positions change anyway. But for Pit Lems proper, at this stage I don't want to mess up people's replays by swapping around level positions. This can be precisely one of those early roadblocks, like in Lemmings Migration, that hit you early and out of nowhere.
I'm in agreement here with this level potentially being a roadblock this early in the pack.
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Blocking all over the world: This level has been fixed a bunch of times and yet people still find ways to backroute it. :P I think you might have played an older version, though: I remember fixing the instance of this level on Lemmings World Tour (where it's part of the Professional rank, not actually of Encore, because it's such a well-known song, and a puzzle I quite like). But I'm pretty sure I hadn't fixed the Pit Lems original version yet.
I downloaded Pit Lems for the very first time earlier this year in April, so I couldn't have an older version of the level.
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You learn it, you earn it!: Funny, I actually thought this level was slightly easier than some of the preceding ones. I don't remember nin10doadict struggling with this one in particular during his Let's Play. Good to know - and nice to hear - that it was somewhat of a challenge for you, though! ;)
Ok, I didn't think the level was that hard, but to casual and less experienced players, it is a huge step in difficulty compared to the other levels around it. I did struggle with the level, but not that much ;)
Response to your Remarks on the ROFL Rank
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ROFL
I'm not quite sure what you mean in general when you say "more tricky than difficult". Does this refer to execution troubles, as opposed to puzzle troubles? ;) Or are these just terms for subjectively different levels of a challenge?
For example, I think we can agree that All or Nothing from the original Lemmings is not hard, just tricky to pull off. In this case, it's a tricky to execute one. It can extend to puzzle troubles as well, but it all depends on what's needed in the solution. Like those that are just standard puzzles that simply require knowing what each skill does and with a lot of red herrings are probably not difficult, but they can be tricky. So, pretty much subjective.
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Let's play Quidditch: This is the closest thing to a Paralems level that Pit Lems has (aside from maybe the level "Wasted talent", which is a fairer version of the ultimate-trolling level "Trust No 1" from Paralems). Because it's a book / movie reference, and the level justifies its presence through that, more so than through its mechanical challenge.
Well, thank you for finally answering my question on what level from Paralems is considered the "ultimate trolling level." :P It's Demented 26. As I mentioned in the feedback for that level, I thought it wasn't hard at all, especially since I solved it in about 1-2 minutes all without using CPM. However, I was taken by surprise that the supposed pond at the bottom isn't water but actually fire. And yes, I noticed that the lemmings that come out of the hatch are all swimmers, so I thought I could use it as a delaying tactic, but nope, surprise. I think the only thing that might be fishy about my solution was how I was able to bash through the wall without getting scorched by the hidden fire pits, but I believe lemmings don't die to them from below, they die from walking into it on the same horizontal level.
Response to your Remarks on the WTF Rank
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WTF
Check mate: nin10doadict considered this the hardest level of the pack, and it was the last one he solved. I placed it here because, once you get the main trick, due to the terrain shape, you can just keep repeating that trick to solve the level. But yes, this is one of the few X-of-everything levels I made that I actually still like. It goes to show how "iffy" terrain shapes can provide such a challenge in and of themselves that even having a plethora of skills, and the many degrees of freedom that go along with that, don't really help you all that much. I've certainly found some levels in Lemmings Plus I now that adhere to this principle. namida seems to be much better at creating this particular type of "any-way-you-want" level than I am.
This is a perfect example of a level where the skillset may look very open and lenient, but in actuality is very tight, especially the builders. Everything else is not as tight, but it doesn't mean that one can be wasteful with them.
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Airborne aid: I think you're the first one not to be annoyed by this level. :thumbsup: Slowfreeze for the win!
Actually, I was a little bit, not with the timing of the slowfreeze, but how to getting the timing of the other stuff in my solution correct in order to get the stoners in the right place. That being said, yes, I agree that this is quite an excellent slowfreeze puzzle. Nice job! :thumbsup:
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Glück auf (yes, that's how you actually spell it, but the NeoLemmix font doesn't cut it yet :P ): I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that apparently, you were able to pull off the Miner-cancel trick with Climbers.
Back during his Let's Play, I told nin10doadict this wasn't possible, and I even based a Lemmicks level from the Ephemeral rank, "Ignorance is bliss", on this belief. (You had to send up a Climber first, and then perform the Miner cancel trick with that lemming, which now no longer was a Climber, and I believed this was necessary to be able to do the Miner-cancel trick in the first place.)
Consequently, nin10doadict rightfully criticised that this level introduces the player to a corner-case of the Miner-cancel trick right away (=with Climbers), instead of to its "pure form". Because even though he knew about the trick, he wasn't able to pull it off with the Climbers. The intended solution doesn't use them either - it requires releasing the crowd into the tunnel so that one of the regular lemmings can perform the Miner-cancel trick. Of course, nin10doadict was able to do this - but only after I had told him that Climbers couldn't perform the trick.
Later on, while testing the penultimate level of the Legend rank of Lemmings World Tour, I found out that it is indeed possible for a Climber to perform the Miner-cancel trick. It just seems to be much more unlikely, because the Climber wastes time by "hugging" the end of the mine shaft, whereas a regular lemming turns around immediately.
That said, "Glück auf" technically isn't the first level to introduce the Miner-cancel trick: It's already part of the intended solution to "Doubling down". However, that level allowed for an alternative solution, which I wasn't aware of, but nin10doadict used. Hence, he could bypass the necessity to "learn" the Miner-cancel trick in its "standard form", so that when "Glück auf" hit him with the corner case of Climbers + Miner-cancel trick, it hit him out of nowhere. :evil:
Yes, I remember you mentioning that you didn't think cancelling a miner with a climber was possible, but you later found out that it is. And yea, I just took a look at the level again and realized that indeed I could had just relied on a non-climber to cancel the miner. I failed to realize the steel on the very far left in the level that I could had used to turn the miner around to come back and mine the crowd out and then consequently release the miner with a non-climber. I think here it took me about 3 tries to cancel the miner with a climber, so not as long as I thought.
For Doubling Down, I'm not aware of any alternative solution that doesn't use miner cancelling. Come to think of it, I think I found out about miner cancelling through Pimolems for Lemmini, and so as a result I'm pleased to see that it carries over to NL.
I'm currently on the rank finisher for OMFG, and I must say that it is stumping me pretty badly right now. I know what the solution should look like in retrospect, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet. I think I'll get it eventually if I spend a good amount of time on it.
Quotewhich I finished in 2 1/2 years. I took the next two years off, having been exhausted from doing a master's degree. In case you haven't had the experience of doing grad school, take it from me, it is always very exhausting finishing any kind of graduate degree.
My master also took slightly longer than the 2 standard years (you have 6 months to work on the final thesis, and my "clock" started running officially in May 2018, so I had until November to finish it. My master started in October 2016, so that's slighlty more than a year until I handed in the thesis; took until February until I got the final master certificate, though). But after that, I jumped straight into my PhD studies in December 2018.
(I'm going to quote some things outside spoilers now, but I'll leave out the crucial parts of the sentences that actually are a spoiler :P .)
QuoteI downloaded Pit Lems for the very first time earlier this year in April, so I couldn't have an older version of the level.
No, I simply meant that no version of "Blocking all over the world" has been fixed in Pit Lems. nin10doadict solved this level the intended way in his LP. It was only through other players' replays that I discovered it was broken, and then when I had fixed those parts of the level and included the new version on the Professional rank of LWT, Arty backrouted it again. After that, I fixed Arty's backroute in the LWT version, but I hadn't made any changes to the Pit Lems version. Remember that at the type of LWT's initial release (which was Old-Formats), most people had already moved on to New Formats exclusively, and I was getting urged left and right by the rest of the community to move on as well. Thus, I had no reason to assume anyone would still care for Old Formats Pit Lems. :P
QuoteWell, thank you for finally answering my question on what level from Paralems is considered the "ultimate trolling level."
Yeah, sorry, it just occurred to me yesterday that I hadn't responded to that. I thought I should maybe add that to the Paralems thread. But since it was for you in particular, and you had posted in both threads, I thought it ultimately doesn't matter in which one I answer that question. ;) Because it is indeed already mentioned in the Paralems thread - previous users had figured it out already, and also mentioned it in their replies to "Paralems". So anyone interested in what the ultimate trolling level is can open any spoiler tab for the Demented rank in one of the posts in the thread.
Spoiler
And yes, the part with the water being acid is one piece of the trolling puzzle. :P Although the idea to create water areas that actually act like fire was clearly by namida (the acid is taken from the Lab tileset). Or, more accurately, by the Lemmings developers themselves (since acid appears on Lemmings Revolution).
I would just have thought that our puzzle-fairness sensibilities would not necessarily argue for adopting such a misleading type of object into NeoLemmix. But I guess it was a different time when namida created the Lab tileset. If any new forum member created a tileset featuring acid today (and the precedent hadn't already been set by other tilesets including acid), that graphic set would probably attract quite a bit of criticism from our puzzle-fairness purists. :evil:
QuoteFor Doubling Down, I'm not aware of any alternative solution
Here you can see nin10doadict's alternative solution to "Doubling down": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFTKhHwAH8&list=PLbyk0AE1WQV0aITefPK5p6wC9-sIozw0n&index=7
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I'm currently on the rank finisher for OMFG, and I must say that it is stumping me pretty badly right now. I know what the solution should look like in retrospect, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet. I think I'll get it eventually if I spend a good amount of time on it.
Hopefully this little reminder is not a spoiler to you already - I'm just saying this for the sake of game fairness: Please keep in mind that, after several physics changes, Old-Formats physics are quite different to current New-Formats ones. There are certain things you can do in Old-Formats that you can't do in New-Formats, and vice versa. If you've played a lot of New Formats otherwise, you can easily overlook those minor differences. I saw that happen repeatedly to other players during their Let's Plays. :P
In Lemmicks ("Very Old Formats"), for example, I spent a great deal of time to really drive home the fact that level sides were solid. Pit Lems however does not include any levels specifically designed to remind you of Old-Formats physics - because at the time of creation, those were simply just "current physics". ;)
Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 30, 2020, 10:07:34 AM
No, I simply meant that no version of "Blocking all over the world" has been fixed in Pit Lems. nin10doadict solved this level the intended way in his LP. It was only through other players' replays that I discovered it was broken, and then when I had fixed those parts of the level and included the new version on the Professional rank of LWT, Arty backrouted it again. After that, I fixed Arty's backroute in the LWT version, but I hadn't made any changes to the Pit Lems version. Remember that at the type of LWT's initial release (which was Old-Formats), most people had already moved on to New Formats exclusively, and I was getting urged left and right by the rest of the community to move on as well. Thus, I had no reason to assume anyone would still care for Old Formats Pit Lems. :P
Oh, got it! :P
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Hopefully this little reminder is not a spoiler to you already - I'm just saying this for the sake of game fairness: Please keep in mind that, after several physics changes, Old-Formats physics are quite different to current New-Formats ones. There are certain things you can do in Old-Formats that you can't do in New-Formats, and vice versa. If you've played a lot of New Formats otherwise, you can easily overlook those minor differences. I saw that happen repeatedly to other players during their Let's Plays. :P
In Lemmicks ("Very Old Formats"), for example, I spent a great deal of time to really drive home the fact that level sides were solid. Pit Lems however does not include any levels specifically designed to remind you of Old-Formats physics - because at the time of creation, those were simply just "current physics". ;)
Yea, it's definitely been a while since I have played any Old Formats packs, so I have certainly forgotten about some of the things that are possible in Old Formats but isn't in NF or vice versa. Paralems reminded me of some of them, such as the ceiling not being deadly but the sides were. I got to admit that the solid ceiling took me by complete surprise and did confuse me momentarily. I don't remember which level I did that in where I go through the ceiling and got hit with a surprise solid ceiling. Guess all the time I spent playing United the last several months had me so used to the deadly ceiling that I forgot about solid ceilings in the Old Formats. I remember sides being deadly in Old Formats, so this would just be a very inconsistent case of all borders deadly except the top. To add insult to injury, in very old Formats only the bottom is deadly, so it was definitely a rude awakening when I started playing packs again on v10.13.18 after so long.
So no, what you described above isn't a spoiler at all, since I played Paralems first and it reminded me of some of the differences between Old Formats and New Formats, mostly regarding the level borders. Whether or not that's helpful for OMFG 20 is a different matter, but like I said I think I just need to spend some more time on it and I think eventually I'll get it. I could skip it, but I have a personal preference of not skipping around to other levels in level packs.
Just solved OMFG 20. Now I really wished you didn't give that major hint away like that. I thought it was clear from my post that I wasn't even asking for a hint, it was simply letting you know my progress on your pack and where I was currently stumped. Granted, I still figured out the solution myself and reasoned it out correctly with my latest post on the level borders, and I was able to test it out just now and indeed it was completely relevant and integral to the solution. Looks like I'll have to tag on a NO HINTS YET please the next time I post on a pack I'm playing and currently stuck. I think it's well-known by now that I'm one of those people who prefers no hints, even when stuck. Yes, I did ask Icho for help with United, but for the record United is the only major pack that I had to do so, and only for 2 or 3 levels. One vague hint without giving away the solution was enough to help me get past the levels I was stuck on.
Yeah, that's what I feared - in hindsight, once you know the solution, you can definitely see how the information about the ceiling helps.
I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.
That's why I mentioned it explicitly on the very first Lemmicks level, so that I wouldn't have to bring it up again later. I just expected the player to know it at this point (but still, some players regularly forgot about it again). But as said before, Pit Lems didn't include this hint on level 01 to remember it for later, because at that time, those were the current physics that didn't require any explanation. Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.
Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences. ;) If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level. ;)
And Pit Lems is done! :) Feedback for the pack and final two ranks to come later on.
Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 30, 2020, 07:06:32 PM
I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.
Yea, I can see that now, and to be fair, I happened to still reason and figure out the solution correctly on my own, so therefore you didn't really give anything away. However, moving forward let me make it clear that just because I stated
I'm currently stuck on a level it doesn't mean I'm asking for a hint :P Generally, the clearest way I indicate to the author that I need a bit of a hint is if I send my best replay attempt. There were a couple of levels I did that for in United, and Icho gave me a vague hint that didn't give anything away so that allowed me to think and still figure out the solution for myself. Even if I don't, I will play it safe and attach a NO HINTS YET to my post.
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Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.
That's exactly what I did. I WASN'T asking for a hint at all, all my post was letting you know was that OMFG 20 was stumping me for the time being.
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Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences. ;)
Oh for sure I'm more used to New Formats (my United posts span 6 months, but I started playing United since September of last year, so really I've been used to New Formats for an entire year). On the other hand, I did play some packs for Old Formats in between whenever I got really stuck on United, but in total I have pretty much only spent about a month with Old Formats. With Lemmicks for very Old Formats, it was about a month as well.
Yes, I was well aware of the physics differences between Old Formats and New Formats in regards to the borders, but having played New Formats for a way much longer time, I was definitely bound to forget. That was certainly the case a few weeks ago when I started playing Old Formats again after 4-5 months since the last time I played Old Formats. When you stated to remember the differences, I remember thinking other than the level borders, I don't know any other differences. Deadly sides I remember, what I didn't remember was the solid ceiling still carried over from very Old Formats. As I mentioned before, there was some level (don't remember which one) in Paralems where I encountered the ceiling and was taken by surprise that the lemmings didn't die. Thus, I was aware of the solid ceiling before I reached OMFG 20, and so the fact that I got stumped simply meant it didn't occur to me that the ceiling was integral to the solution.
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If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level. ;)
Actually, I didn't think the level was unfair in any way. OMFG 20 is completely 100% fair. The ceiling being part of the solution is not really hidden information in the same sense of hiding stuff inside walls, for example. That's hidden information, with the deliberate attempt to troll, and as I understand that's highly frowned upon by most of the community. However, the ceiling is not hidden information. Level borders are always present, but whether or not you will be able to interact with them depends on the level. Again, I'm well aware of the differences in regards to the level borders between Old Formats and New Formats. It just never occurred to me to use the ceiling to my advantage and therefore I didn't think outside the box (almost literally there for this level) enough, especially since there is even a lot of inconsistency among the different platforms. I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings, and I know the ceiling to be solid on it. The easiest level to encounter it is Going Up in the Mayhem rank. However, there is a difference in that if you build up high enough, eventually the lemmings will place a brick and continue walking in the same direction instead of turning around. Then if you really build into the ceiling, eventually that one lemming will get stuck. I believe the right side is deadly, but the left side is not, and so attempting to go off the right side in the starting area is easy to do and will result in the lemmings dying. I know the left side is solid, and the easiest level to encounter that is NO PROBLEM in the Crazy rank of ONML.
Anyway, just reporting that I have all of Pit Lems solved and I will post my thoughts on the pack and feedback for the OMFG and FML ranks later on :)
All rightie, I've attached my entire replay collection for the pack. Since I already gave you feedback for the first three ranks of the pack, this post is for feedback on the final two ranks, OMFG and FML.
OMFG Rank
OMFG 1 - You want it, you got it! Nice 5-of-everything level to start off the rank! The skillset is somewhat restricted, especially considering the huge landscape, but there's still some leeway if you're efficient in your skill usage.
OMFG 2 - Keep 'em busy Not difficult, just tricky. As the title suggests, the trick is to keep the others busy to give enough time for one lemming to bridge the gap to the exit. How achieve this is not easy. However, I was able to contain all but one of them in the starting area with builders and having one for the end.
OMFG 3 - Fire in the hole Nice puzzle! Other than figuring out how to get through the bidirectional OWW (bash to the right in the upper half, bash to the left in the lower half), the only challenging thing is how to isolate a worker lemming. Getting a second is easy, since there's a climber for that. The timing to send the climber is not difficult so that it can use the stoner step to bash the OWW on top.
OMFG 4 - Talent buried deep within Somewhat difficult due to the very restricted skillset. Working out how to free all the preplaced lemmings stuck inside the pillars is not easy at all. The most obvious is with a digger, but then there's also making sure they can still use the path forged to go to the right. I didn't have to use the disarmer to disarm the trap, so my solution might be a backroute? Also, I have several skills leftover, and my solution almost fails had the glider almost gotten past the exit at the end.
OMFG 5 - Controlled overload More difficult repeat of ROFL 10 with the addition of slowfreeze AND radiation. Here, I avoided the slowfreeze completely and only used the radiation in my solution. I don't collect one of the blocker pick-ups either (decoy maybe?) and I have a climber leftover. Also, looks like this is the level that I encountered the solid ceiling in Pit Lems, and so this escaped me completely for OMFG 20. Then again, I think it was a very quick surprised reaction. So you see, I was aware of the solid ceiling, it just felt like an extremely fast passing remark since my attention was elsewhere, being on the timers on those that went through the radiation.
OMFG 6 - Don't believe in prophecy Very nice and easy level using stoner steps to make one long continuous basher tunnel :thumbsup:
OMFG 7 - Lem in motion Another very nice, easy and short level!
OMFG 8 - Walking in Lemphis The title is obviously a reference to Memphis. Nice looking level that's a bit of a tricky 2-of-everything level. Not too hard, though.
OMFG 9 - Disintegrated Easy level, but that's probably because I backrouted the level. I have a builder leftover.
OMFG 10 - Going down the hard way Ok, I consider this a very pointless repeat of WTF 9, since there's pretty much almost no difference between the solutions of the levels other than finding some way to get a lemming to turn around to bash since no there's no cloner this time. I probably could had gone 1 over the save requirement as well had the basher lemming been a bit higher, but to do probably requires tweaking the RR.
OMFG 11 - You had it coming Really easy 10-of-everything level
OMFG 12 - You reap what you sow I consider this the hardest level of the rank, even more than OMFG 20. I thought the hardest part was just getting two lemmings to use the bottom teleporter without anyone else dying to the water. Other than that, resources are extremely tight, so figuring out the solution can be quite difficult.
OMFG 13 - Wasted Talent Tricky more than hard. Figuring out how to prevent lemmings from going into the trapped teleporter is not trivial, but it's not too exceedingly difficult either. I definitely don't like how the trap is very well-disguised in this tileset. Those other hanging down from the ceiling wiggly things can be mistaken for a trap as well. Luckily, there's only one trap in the exit area. I believe there is a level in Lemmings Plus Alpha with this exact same title, the penultimate level of the pack which I was stuck on the longest out of all the other levels in the pack. I wonder if namida must had taken inspiration from your level, since his pack came much later than Pit Lems.
OMFG 14 - The sky is the limit Trickier repeat of WTF 18, although not much harder. Solution isn't as interesting as the one I used in WTF 18, just a slight variation. I just watched my replay for WTF 18, and the solution relies on the solid ceiling. So, I either knew about it before WTF 18 (most likely, since I'm certain I rediscovered it in Paralems) or WTF 18 was the one that taught me about the solid ceiling in Old Formats. Yet, it's really interesting how the solid ceiling completely escaped me on OMFG 20 even though a solution that uses it was just a rank ago! Oops. :crylaugh:
OMFG 15 - Icing on the Cake This level managed to stump me for a bit before I realized that I wasn't thinking about the solution the right way. Nice looking level with a good solution. I like how you used the slowfreeze for the icing.
OMFG 16 - That's the name of the game I feel like I played a level very similar to this in another pack, where the entire level was the word LEMMINGS spelled out, so nothing too special other than being an easy 15-of-everything level. I don't remember where it came from, though.
OMFG 17 - Man Shields Nice puzzle involving releasing the zombies to trigger off the traps before you can work on saving the crowd. I didn't have to release the last zombie on the right, and I also have several skills leftover. I used a builder and a platformer to bypass the radiation trap.
OMFG 18 - Ramp up your lemmings I also consider this a pointless repeat. Really the only difference is using a combination of stoners and stackers to get up, and I'm definitely familiar with it from Icho's NL Tutorial Pack, so it was easy. For others, it can be a difficult level if one doesn't know about it.
OMFG 19 - Builder buddies Short and very easy, given that it's supposed to teach another trick of using builders to turn around when there's no solid terrain. I can still see how this level can be difficult for the less experienced players though. For one thing, it requires the right RR. For another, it requires making the second builder build in a precise location, specifically, the moment it steps off of the first builder's first brick.
OMFG 20 - Cherry Picking As I already mentioned in my previous post, this level is completely 100% fair IMO, as I was very well aware of the solid ceiling from a previous level in the previous rank or from some level in Paralems. Here, it somehow never occurred to me to use the solid ceiling even though the last time I used it in the solution was from the previous rank, WTF. Oops. So, I guess it was simply a reminder from you that I was able to figure out for myself, which means you didn't give away any of the solution. I can see that now. This is what I appreciate IF I ask for a hint, where I prefer pack authors give me one that doesn't give a major part of the solution away. At the same time, you now know that unless I specifically request a hint, me stating that I'm stuck on a level DOESN'T automatically mean that I'm asking for a hint :P I'm Not to mention that for some reason I didn't think it would work with just two stackers. It definitely should had been obvious to me that using the digger after giving a left-facing lemming a climber would just lead to a dead end, but I never made the connection.
In any case, not a hard level at all. This reminds me of a United level that required a certain trick that I had never ever seen before that would had been impossible for me otherwise. Icho's hint to me was that he learned it from Wafflem, so since the level completely requires it 100%, I decided to take the time to play Wafflem's pack. Once I made the connection with the Wafflem level where I've seen it, I came back to the United level that held me back and it was an auto solve. What isn't certain is whether or not I would had figured it out given enough time. As for the solid ceiling for OMFG 20, it probably would had come to me sooner or later.
FML Rank
FML 1 Dig Pic Tricky more than difficult diggers only level to start off the rank. The solution is easy, executing it correctly isn't.
FML 2 - A Trip to Yugoslemmia Obviously a reference to the country Yugoslavia. Easier than the previous level, with the only tricky thing being how to isolate a single lemming to disarm the traps and forge the path, but once successful, the rest is easy.
FML 3 - You asked for this! Easy level as well. Nothing too special here.
FML 4 - En garde! Nice slightly tricky fencing from both sides puzzle level. Thanks for providing other tools to help with the second fencer.
FML 5 - Hydra philosophy Excellent level! The title is totally appropriate, referring to how the creature regenerates additional heads after one is cut off. In this case, the cloner plays the part of the head regeneration.
FML 6 - @!#*$%/! Not sure what you're trying to censor in the title. Probably a swear/curse word in your language, since I'm not aware of any English profanity that has this many letters. Somewhat difficult level, where it's not easy to figure out how to contain the crowd, and builders are quite a precious resource here but is in extremely short supply, so you can't be wasteful with them at all.
FML 7 - Merry X-Maze! Too easy. Nothing too special here other than nice single use of the X-mas tileset for the pack here. Looks pretty decent artistically too.
FML 8 - Copycats Easy level. Compression for the win once more! ;)
FML 9 - Get a Foothold Difficult puzzle level. Initially, I kept only using the radiation, but once I realized how I can get a climber to get to both the slowfreeze and the radiation via the cloners, the rest was easy. Surely there are easier ways than how I did it, though. I'm sure getting a stoner as a stepping stone to break the crowd's fall is the intended way, but here I simply used to radiation bomber holes staggered in such a way that they can step to the lowest level of the floor and survive the fall as a result.
FML 10 - Last cry for salvation Despite being a 10-of-everything level, the level is still somewhat difficult. My solution is likely not intended. I guess my solution definitely takes advantage of how this teleporter is extremely fast. I like how the puzzle revolves around how to use the swimmer and disarmer hatch groups to forge a safe path for the other two lemming hatches that don't have permanent skills.
FML 11 - Three Lems, one stomper Very short, somewhat tricky one-of-everything level. Here, I simply delayed the second lemming with a floater, digger, and then bashing to give the first lemming enough time to build over the trigger area of the stomper so the other two lemmings don't get killed. I think I could had made it easier by having the second lemming block and using the third to release him with a digger and basher.
FML 12 - Acrobatic endeavours Unless my solution is intended, it is possible to contain the crowd at the top and simply platform all the way across to the left exit. Therefore, the swimmers and disarmers aren't needed, and the floaters don't need to go to the bottom. Indeed, I initially tried to work out the solution using the bottom route, but I gave up on that after a few attempts. This is similar to the ROFL level where different specialist lemmings spawn out of the exact same hatch. Otherwise, I'm sure this is supposed to be a difficult level that involves getting to the right side through the bottom, since only climbers should be using the left exit.
FML 13 - Lemmings of Troy Nice level depicting the Trojan horse and the sieging of Troy. Level seems a bit tricky due to the very restricted skillset, but it's still easy.
FML 14 - Lemhattan Clearly a reference to Manhattan. Nice looking and good puzzle involving getting a swimmer to build from the other side so that you can just fence through the up OWW. It's quite difficult to make out the terrain with all the background buildings.
FML 15 - A level of fire and ice Easy level, although not much of a puzzle with the slowfreeze, since it's already placed at the right distance away to create a stepping stone for the left crowd to bridge the gap to get to the right crowd to release them. The only tricky thing is isolating just one lemming to get to the slowfreeze while ensuring that no other lemmings are lost if you use the two bombers and lose one from the slowfreeze, meaning you must save the blocker if you use it. Once again, I got scared thinking my containment method wouldn't work but then it was immediately gone once I saw the climbers hit the ceiling and fall back down. Seems like it's just one of those things that's easily forgotten, particularly if you've been used to New Formats for so long.
FML 16 - Another stunt maneuver Another repeat of the same level that appears once in both the OMFG and WTF ranks? The major difference is that the exit moved down, as in its original position it is protected by two blowtorch traps. Just two stoners, one as a stepping stone on the same level as the exit, and two platformers and done, and so I didn't use the builders and stackers at all. I just realized how very similar the "u" looks to the "v" in the game.
FML 17 - Triple Security Tricky, but excellent level! But boy, that partly hidden trap behind the exit looks very out of place. I think I understand why it's there though. It's supposed to represent one of them x-ray detectors that we pass through at places like the airport. Before I spotted the trap, I remember seeing a disarmer in the skill panel and I was like, "What's the point of having a disarmer? I don't see any trap in the level."
FML 18 - Speedy Lembert Nice level that looks impossible but you have to remember that the lemming has all permanent athletic skills: swimmer, climber, and glider. I have never seen this tileset before.
FML 19 - Apotheosis exam Can be on the difficult side, but I still found the level somewhat easy for the penultimate of the pack. It's an excellent level with a nice solution! Platforming from both sides of the water gap is necessary, as platforming from just the left side won't get you across the entire pond.
FML 20 - White Wilderness I think it's just me, but for the final level of the pack this was a letdown. It's really easy, although it's still not too trivial. Just three bahsers, a floater, and two platformers and done. I definitely expected a much more difficult and epic level to finish off the pack. So many skills leftover.
Overall, Pit Lems is many times better than your first pack, Paralems. I definitely enjoyed the levels/puzzles here way more. Though the pack immediately starts off difficult, I definitely felt appropriately challenged and didn't get too overwhelmed with the difficulty. Let's see what LOA has in store for me when I get to it. From what I seen and read, it appears that you aren't pulling any punches at all with that pack, so maybe for even someone like me it will be quite difficult. Nevertheless, I don't mind difficult packs and I'm willing to take them on, the same way I took on United. But first, I think I'll be taking on your flagship pack LWT for Old Formats before pre-testing LOA. Plus, as has been suggested by you, I should wait until you have patched all the levels based on Armani's replays/feedback first before I play the pack. I think that's a good idea. Now that I have finished Pit Lems, I've given you even more levels to look at so that you can fix them for Pit Lems Remastered :P
In summary, excellent job with a well-done pack! :thumbsup: I loved it a lot, way more compared to Paralems. The only time I felt bored with the pack was from the pointless repeats, but otherwise I absoluely loved the way so many of the levels gave me enough of a challenge to keep me engaged and the satisfaction that came from figuring out the solutions. I definitely highly recommend this pack to anyone who hasn't played it yet, but at the same time I also agree with you that I wouldn't recommend Paralems. I simply played it because again I thought I wouldn't mind those generally hated elements most of the community frowns upon, as well as since I already started playing the pack, my personal preference of always finishing what I start.
Does a version of this pack with Radiation and Slowfreeze objects still exist anywhere?
Quote from: WillLem on February 18, 2024, 12:58:38 PM
Does a version of this pack with Radiation and Slowfreeze objects still exist anywhere?
The pack download is in the OP ;)
Yes, they were never removed from the Old-Formats version. "Pit Lems Remastered" will eventually come out for New Formats, all the levels that are supposed to go in it have been converted to New Formats a long time ago. I just haven't gotten down to adapting the solutions for the levels with Radiation and Slowfreeze to New Formats yet.
For SuperLemmix, however, I have already re-added Radiation and Slowfreeze to these select few levels, taking the New-Formats conversions as a basis, and then placing the objects in the required spots. My replays are from a time period when the countdown for Radiation and Slowfreeze in SuperLemmix was still at 10, though, so I may have to redo them - which can be somewhat annoying, with execution-heavy tools like Radiation and Slowfreeze. Unless of course resetting the countdown to 9 may now allow me to run my original Old-Formats replays on these SuperLemmix levels. I haven't tried that out yet. :D
Quote from: Strato Incendus on February 18, 2024, 04:47:10 PM
For SuperLemmix, however, I have already re-added Radiation and Slowfreeze to these select few levels ... My replays are from a time period when the countdown for Radiation and Slowfreeze in SuperLemmix was still at 10, though, so I may have to redo them
It's now possible to set the countdown value anywhere between 1 and 99 seconds using the SLX editor; I also know of a quick way to change all levels at once using RegEx in a text editor if needs be, let me know if you need this.