Hi folks,
I propose the following smiley changes.
:o -> (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png), replacing the current (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif)
:clam: -> (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-clam.png)
The huge eyes were suggested back in 2011 (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1399.0), but the admins of the 2009-2014 forum instance didn't react.
-- Simon
These smileys are completely useless. It's nonsense to have smileys without a mouth. The best idea is to redraw them all to something more appropriate.
I don't think :o and huge eyes are quite the same emotion -- huge eyes is closer to :scared: which I like the way it is.
Clam, on the other hand, should certainly be added. I don't know what emotion it represents, but it is relevant.
Quote from: Simon on February 18, 2015, 01:32:03 PM
Hi folks,
I propose the following smiley changes.
:o -> (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png), replacing the current (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif)
:clam: -> (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-clam.png)
The huge eyes were suggested back in 2011 (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1399.0), but the admins of the 2009-2014 forum instance didn't react.
-- Simon
I actually like the huge eyes, they really show a lot more emotion than the current shocked emotion. But I'm guessing since not a lot of people may be fond of the huge eyes, perhaps both emotions should be kept, and the huge eyes one should be labeled as "Shocked 2"
Add the clam, too.
:o is fine, and I hate the proposed replacement.
How has this one not been proposed yet: (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43603680/smiley-oo3.png)
For the new smiley, I think an addition would definitely be better than a replacement due to different preferences here.
Quote from: Simon on February 18, 2015, 01:32:03 PM
The huge eyes were suggested back in 2011 (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1399.0), but the admins of the 2009-2014 forum instance didn't react.
I prefer the other smiley that Simon suggested at the time: (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png)
Come to think of it, it reminds me of Prob Lem's old avatar.
And here's one I made from combining the :scared: eyes with the :o face: (http://oi59.tinypic.com/54jddx.jpg)
I just realized geoo's smiley has the clam eyes. :P
On IRC:
Quote
<SimonN> yes, nobody wants the O_O smiley despite it being the most expressive, so what's the constructive criticism except "I like the other(s) better"
<NaOH> It's too expressive
<SimonN> isn't that a design pattern for smileys?
<NaOH> it's more expressive than the other smileys. It has so much expression I can't really take it seriously.
<NaOH> It's too cartoonish.
<SimonN> hmm
<SimonN> and you don't want cartooney smileys?
<NaOH> cartoonishness is a relative scale
<SimonN> okay
<NaOH> the other smileys are relatively mellow.
<SimonN> my gripe is that they differ only by a few tiny pixels, it's too hard to see what it is
Quote from: Leo on February 18, 2015, 02:08:27 PMThese smileys are completely useless. It's nonsense to have smileys without a mouth. The best idea is to redraw them all to something more appropriate.
Do an image search on Google and you might realize that in many instances of Lemmings box art, they do tend to exaggerate the eyes while de-emphasizing (even omitting) the nose and mouth. So the smileys we currently have actually conformed to that style pretty decently. So far I personally have not found the lack of mouths to be much of a problem, though I admit it's quite the irony to have smileys technically without actual "smiles" per se.
================
Anyhow, I think I do prefer (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png) over (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png), although I'm actually fine even sticking with what we currently have. I'd rather get a new smiley for "sarcastic rolling eyes" similar to this (but Lemming-fied of course): (http://www.pcpuzzle.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif).
Love the clam, although to be quite honest, I'm not sure what it really means and therefore how I would actually use it. :XD:
Quote from: geoo on February 18, 2015, 05:21:36 PMHow has this one not been proposed yet: (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43603680/smiley-oo3.png)
That looks more like "Lemming with exaggeratedly over-cute Anime-style eyes" to me. So no (unless you're going for that).
Quote from: NaOH on February 18, 2015, 06:21:48 PM
Come to think of it, it reminds me of Prob Lem's old avatar.
Surely my current one? I only have this one and the Christmas one. :thumbsup:
Anyway, I really like Simon's proposed "shocked" variant, even though I also like the existing one as well. The other proposed one with slightly narrower eyes doesn't really look as shocked to me, because it reminds me of Dizzy's idle expression in Fantastic Dizzy for the Mega Drive and Amiga. :D
Quote from: ccexplore on February 18, 2015, 10:33:37 PM
Do an image search on Google and you might realize that in many instances of Lemmings box art, they do tend to exaggerate the eyes while de-emphasizing (even omitting) the nose and mouth.
And then there's the other issue - two of the Lemmings art-styles clash, which also makes a possible difference here. In older artwork (circa Lemmings/ONML to Lomax or so), when shown at all, the lemmings' mouths are clearly set fairly far back under their snouts (i.e., they seem to have quite shallow jaws). This is different to the Sony-era art, where their mouths are instead placed virtually at the tip of their snouts (i.e., where you might think a nose would go). The former doesn't really show from a front-view like our smileys employ (you'd need a three-quarters view for that, or for them to tip their heads back a little to show emotion ;P ), and the latter looks anything from incredibly strange to borderline scary depending on what emotion is being displayed. Just some random input from my lore/art-style-watching self. ;)
QuoteDo an image search on Google and you might realize that in many instances of Lemmings box art, they do tend to exaggerate the eyes while de-emphasizing (even omitting) the nose and mouth. So the smileys we currently have actually conformed to that style pretty decently. So far I personally have not found the lack of mouths to be much of a problem, though I admit it's quite the irony to have smileys technically without actual "smiles" per se.
I know how they looks, but that's hardly an excuse to make all smileys unrecognizable.
But, if we want to be complete Lemmings purists, then we can only use original sprite head of 4x4 pixels. Let's see... it's exactly like that: (http://i58.tinypic.com/3yb8h.png)
We can use that one for all smileys and pretend that this is not a stupid thing.
Quote from: geoo on February 18, 2015, 05:21:36 PMHow has this one not been proposed yet: (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43603680/smiley-oo3.png)
This is hilarious, but there's no way.
Quote from: ccexplore on February 18, 2015, 10:33:37 PM
Anyhow, I think I do prefer (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png) over (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png), although I'm actually fine even sticking with what we currently have.
Agreed.
NaOH has created an additional lix emoticon -- (http://www.camanis.net/lemmings/img/emoticons/lix-glare.png) -- of which I wholeheartedly (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/glare.png) approve.
Quote from: Leo on February 19, 2015, 03:02:15 AMI know how they looks, but that's hardly an excuse to make all smileys unrecognizable.
You're most welcome to create a full set of smileys with mouths, and then I can maybe look into putting them somewhere in addition to our existing set [edit: or possibly look into incorporating them as an alternate forum style or something that you can set for your own profile]. Otherwise it wouold appear you are overwhelmingly outvoted on this so far.
[hint: insulting other people's choices are normally not the best way to entice them to do anything for you. I'm not really sure why I feel so accommodating.]
My opinion on the big-eyed smileys: (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43603680/smiley-oo3.png) > (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png) > (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png). (But for actual inclusion in the smiley options I'd go with (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png).)
And you use (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-clam.png) when you feel clammy, of course :D
I am partly tempted to include that 4x4 lemming head, though... :P
Hi,
thanks for the ton of feedback. I'll be away over the weekend, but I'll comment now.
QuoteThese smileys are completely useless. It's nonsense to have smileys without a mouth.
Smiling is done with the entire face, right? The mouth will help still.
QuoteThe best idea is to redraw them all to something more appropriate.
Yes!
Some smileys in the current differ only by 3 or 4 pixels. This is horrible to distinguish. This is not how you should do graphical emoticons.
As said in the IRC quote, a smiley should exaggerate. It needn't look realistic.
Quote:o is fine, and I hate the proposed replacement.
Hatred noted, but I can't do much without understanding your reason.
:o seems not fine due to reasoning above, only 4 interesting pixels, hard to distinguish.
Quotehuge eyes is closer to :scared: which I like the way it is.
The latter is okay because of the entirely different color. Didn't feel like huge-eyes is closer to that, but thanks for the input.
Quoteaddition would definitely be better than a replacement due to different preferences here.
Design intuition is to scrap the redundancy, but I fear we'd step on too many toes, hmm.
Quote<NaOH> cartoonishness is a relative scale
<NaOH> the other smileys are relatively mellow.
Yes, the other smileys can be made better. Having proposed this, it's now my duty to try making some. :> Otherwise I'll get BradLee'd. Will look into it next week.
QuoteThe other proposed one with slightly narrower eyes doesn't really look as shocked to me
I feel the same.
I'd recommend the admins not to change any existing smileys yet. At most, add the Clam. Let's see whether I produce something interesting next week. I suck at drawing, but I believe it's still enough to improve the current smileys. :>
-- Simon
Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2015, 03:02:26 PMAt most, add the Clam.
Done. :8():
Also, Leo now has the option to set his profile to use other sets of smilies (ie. when he applies the settings change to his profile, it will change the smilies he sees with his login, no one else is affected unless they change their settings also)...except like half the smilies in our default lemmings-based set will be missing (no graphics exist for them) in the other alternate sets that came built-in to the forum. But given how much he seems to hate the current set maybe he'd consider that an improvement, until someone provides an actual full alternate set for me to upload.
[edit: updated bbcode from :
clam: to :
8(): , although we can vote on this pointless implementation detail if desired]
I'm happy as a clam! :8(): :8(): :8():
Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2015, 03:02:26 PMSome smileys in the current differ only by 3 or 4 pixels. This is horrible to distinguish.
Speaking of horrible to distinguish, what's up with :XD: ((http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/xd.gif)) vs :dead: ((http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/dead.gif))? The actual files are not byte-for-byte identical but the graphics sure look very similar? Are they mean to be the same (just so you can use both bbcodes) or are they supposed to be different? (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif) [edit: resolved]
Typically, "XD" is meant to denote laughter. Having :XD: be a dead-looking emote here has always confused me (I always just use :D instead, for the intended meaning). :P
Quote from: Prob Lem on February 21, 2015, 01:15:23 AMTypically, "XD" is meant to denote laughter. Having :XD: be a dead-looking emote here has always confused me (I always just use :D instead, for the intended meaning). :P
Interesting.
Anyway, I did a quick forum search and found no real hits for the :
dead: smiley bbcode, unlike :
XD:. I now suspect maybe I accidentally un-hid it when I was messing around with the admin controls for smileys yesterday. I've removed it now from the list of available smileys since it appears for all intents and purposes to be a duplicate of :
XD:.
P.S. Thanks for reminding me how to selectively make the bbcode for a smiley to display literally without turning off smileys for the entire post. :thumbsup:
Perhaps a compromise and have all 3 variations?
:o => (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif) (tooltip: "mildly surprised")
:0 => (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png) (tooltip: "shocked")
:O => (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png) (tooltip: "mind blown")
;P :laugh:
Mindless has created an additional complete set of lix emoticons (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/) -- with mouths! -- of which I wholeheartedly approve.
Seriously these are adorable. I vote they be added in as a secondary set of emoticons.
(http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-blush.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cool.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cry.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-dead.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-evil.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-frown.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-glare.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-grin.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-laugh.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-mysterious.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-sad.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scared.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scream.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-smile.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-tongue.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-troubled.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-unsure.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-wink.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-winktongue.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-yawn.png)
Quote from: ccexplore on February 21, 2015, 01:47:22 AM
Perhaps a compromise and have all 3 variations?
:o => (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif) (tooltip: "mildly surprised")
:0 => (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo.png) (tooltip: "shocked")
:O => (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/smiley-oo2.png) (tooltip: "mind blown")
;P :laugh:
Best compromise. The specifications of each surprised smiley are far more accurate than before. They should all be kept.
Quote from: NaOH on February 21, 2015, 05:12:57 AM
Mindless has created an additional complete set of lix emoticons (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/) -- with mouths! -- of which I wholeheartedly approve.
Seriously these are adorable. I vote they be added in as a secondary set of emoticons.
(http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-blush.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cool.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cry.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-dead.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-evil.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-frown.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-glare.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-grin.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-laugh.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-mysterious.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-sad.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scared.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scream.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-smile.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-tongue.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-troubled.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-unsure.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-wink.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-winktongue.png) (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-yawn.png)
Although I haven't played Lix that much, the forum needs some more Lix emoticons, and these are well-done.
It's completely possible to have seperate sets (a "Lemmings" set and a "Lix" set) and let users choose which one they prefer, if anyone likes this idea.
Quote from: namida on February 21, 2015, 04:45:53 PM
It's completely possible to have seperate sets (a "Lemmings" set and a "Lix" set) and let users choose which one they prefer, if anyone likes this idea.
Since emoticons convey emotions, the small nuances of the emoticon used are very important. Therefore, it's important to have control over what others see when posting an emoticon. The subtle difference between :) and :lix: (or >:( and :lix-glare:) might be small emotionally, but the difference is there. So it doesn't really make sense for one user to see only :) and another user to see only :lix:.
As an extreme example, suppose we changed the XD emoticon from :XD: to something more indicative of laughter (and less of a dead lemming). Suddenly, a lot of posts will read very differently.
All-in-all, I think it's better to let the poster choose the emoticon style than the reader. I suppose, of course, if the reader is determined to see one particular style of emoticon only, they're free to set that profile parameter.
It should be possible, with a little bit of admin magic, to have a setup along the lines of:
Option a. Poster posts, eg, ":)". This shows up as a Lemming smiley or a Lix smiley depending on the reader's preference.
Option b. Poster posts, eg, ":lem)". This shows up as a Lemming no matter what.
Option c. Poster posts, eg, ":lix)". This shows up as a Lix no matter what.
(Perhaps even a fourth one to show up as the opposite of what the reader has set. xD And preferably with better shorcuts than those ones I used as examples.)
Nnnn, nah, no. NaOH has the reason right, I feel the emoticons differ.
The is a difference between :) and :lix:. Both show happinness, but :lix: connotes freedom from cumbersome tradition. Maybe it's like the difference of :-) and Guyperfect's persistent (-:.
-- Simon
QuoteThe is a difference between :) and :lix:. Both show happinness,
I must say (and try to not 'insult' anybody with this fact, like ccexplore said i did) they don't show anything. Isn't that obvious? Both are just a face without any expression.
Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 08:53:57 PM
:lix: connotes freedom from cumbersome tradition.
This made me laugh.
Quote from: Leo on February 23, 2015, 12:07:02 AM
QuoteThe is a difference between :) and :lix:. Both show happinness,
I must say (and try to not 'insult' anybody with this fact, like ccexplore said i did) they don't show anything. Isn't that obvious? Both are just a face without any expression.
Actually, I totally agree. Neither of :) and :lix: is a smile so much as a blank expression. But :D looks happy to me regardless of the lack of mouth.
Here's a lem with Mindless' lix smile. (http://oi59.tinypic.com/2vbwhfs.jpg)
Jarring, but not hard to get used to. Kind of cute, actually.
Regardless of all these new smiley possibilities, I still feel it's more important to have consistency across all screens than to facilitate viewing one's preferred set of emoticons.
Edit: out of curiosity, would it be possible to save the smileys used by existing posts as-is and constrain all the changes we decide on strictly affect posts hereafter?
I'm sure it could be done if we do decide on making any such changes.
:thumbsup: to the new set of Lix smileys!
I'd be quite happy to adopt (/keep) all of the smileys mentioned in this topic so far (though admittedly the clam-eyed lemming is borderline :P). The poster can decide which ones to use, and which ones everyone else will see in their posts.
-- 8(:8():)
Quote from: NaOH on February 23, 2015, 01:54:29 AMEdit: out of curiosity, would it be possible to save the smileys used by existing posts as-is and constrain all the changes we decide on strictly affect posts hereafter?
AFAIK, it's not possible for the same sequence of characters to translate to different smilies based on when the post was created. New smilies will need to get their own sequences of characters, and existing sequences of characters in used by existing smilies should probably be left alone.
Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2015, 08:53:57 PMMaybe it's like the difference of :-) and Guyperfect's persistent (-:.
Great idea actually, this is a lot more elegant than having to do something like :
lix).
With that in mind, here are some proposed codes for the new Lix smilies. Comments welcome.
| | | Lix | | | (filename) | | | Lem analog | | | current code for Lem analog | | | proposed code for Lix | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-ashamed.png) | | | lix-2-ashamed.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-ashamed: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-blush.png) | | | lix-2-blush.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/embarrassed.gif) | | | :-[ | | | ]-: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cool.png) | | | lix-2-cool.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif) | | | 8-) | | | (-8 | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-cry.png) | | | lix-2-cry.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/cry.gif) | | | :'( | | | ),: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-dead.png) | | | lix-2-dead.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/xd.gif) | | | :XD: | | | :ⱭX: or :DX: or :(|X: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-evil.png) | | | lix-2-evil.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/evil.gif) | | | :evil: | | | :lix-evil: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-frown.png) | | | lix-2-frown.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-frown: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-gasp.png) | | | lix-2-gasp.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif) | | | :o | | | o-: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-glare.png) | | | lix-2-glare.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif) | | | >:( | | | ):< | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-grin.png) | | | lix-2-grin.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/cheesy.gif) | | | :D | | | Ɑ: or (|: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-laugh.png) | | | lix-2-laugh.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif) | | | :laugh: | | | :lix-laugh: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-mysterious.png) | | | lix-2-mysterious.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-mysterious: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2.png) | | | lix-2.png | | | n/a | | | | | | :lix2: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-sad.png) | | | lix-2-sad.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif) | | | :( | | | )-: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scared.png) | | | lix-2-scared.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/scared.gif) | | | :scared: | | | :lix-scared: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-scream.png) | | | lix-2-scream.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-scream: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-sick.png) | | | lix-2-sick.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/sick.gif) | | | :sick: | | | :lix-sick: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-smile.png) | | | lix-2-smile.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif) | | | :) | | | (: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-suspicious.png) | | | lix-2-suspicious.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-suspicious: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-tongue.png) | | | lix-2-tongue.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif) | | | :P | | | d-: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-troubled.png) | | | lix-2-troubled.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-troubled: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-unsure.png) | | | lix-2-unsure.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif) | | | :-\ | | | \-: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-wink.png) | | | lix-2-wink.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif) | | | ;) | | | (; | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-winktongue.png) | | | lix-2-winktongue.png | | | (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif) | | | ;P | | | d-; | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-yawn.png) | | | lix-2-yawn.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-yawn: | | |
| | | (http://sonar.camanis.net/~mindless/lix-2/lix-2-yell.png) | | | lix-2-yell.png | | | ? | | | ? | | | :lix-yell: | | |
Quote from: ccexplore on February 23, 2015, 12:11:03 PMQuote from: NaOH on February 23, 2015, 01:54:29 AMEdit: out of curiosity, would it be possible to save the smileys used by existing posts as-is and constrain all the changes we decide on strictly affect posts hereafter?
AFAIK, it's not possible for the same sequence of characters to translate to different smilies based on when the post was created. New smilies will need to get their own sequences of characters, and existing sequences of characters in used by existing smilies should probably be left alone.
Nothing is impossible. :)
Option A) Modify SMF's code to implement this difference.
Option B) Have a hidden, second code for all of the pre-existing smileys, and write a script to modify old posts to use this code.
[ ^ oops sorry, somehow I wound up modifying the post above instead of creating a new post in reply :XD: Hopefully changes reverted.]
Quote from: namida on February 23, 2015, 12:30:08 PMNothing is impossible. :)
Option A) Modify SMF's code to implement this difference.
Option B) Have a hidden, second code for all of the pre-existing smileys, and write a script to modify old posts to use this code.
That seems like a lot of work for an off-hand question from NaOH that I'm not even quite sure I understand the purpose thereof. But hey, if you're up for it, more power to you! :thumbsup:
Option B could be considered if we actually settled on some changes that would modify the graphics associated with an existing code, but other than :
o (for which my proposal would leave it as-is anyway, at least graphic-wise), it seems like we're dealing with all new smileys?
Quote from: ccexplore on February 23, 2015, 12:11:03 PMWith that in mind, here are some proposed codes for the new Lix smilies. Comments welcome.
Nice idea. The only thing is, it would be nice to have shorter codes rather than "lix-[adjective]". Looking at the shape of features, I suggest:
'-| for ashamed (looks more "shady" than "ashamed" to me anyway)
':| for frown
(-> for laugh
/-' for mysterious
|:: for scared
||X for scream
I:> for sick
'-7 for suspicious
|-X for troubled
[]| for yawn
[]X for yell
(What character is the backwards D?)
I'm still wary of introducing the entire second set of smileys at all.
I discourage replacing (-: or (: by things. These are bound to come up much more often in normal conversation than :keyword:, especially with a rigid and minimal set of keywords. By using (-: and :-) you assume there will be exactly 2 sets, and never more. Can even quote Guyperfect himself here: "Always always always always always design for n things."
If you want a second set of smileys, :group-mood: seems to me a better code, more memorable for whoever has typed :mood: per hand so far already. And it's guaranteed prefix-free. :keyword: is standard on other boards for nonstandard replacements.
The original issue for this thread is still there, smileys for different expressions are too similar. It's less severe for the lix set, because those have mouths.
-- Simon
Quote from: Simon on February 23, 2015, 05:00:35 PMI discourage replacing (-: or (: by things. <snip>By using (-: and :-) you assume there will be exactly 2 sets, and never more.
The proposal's more like a second set of special cases, in the same way that many of the existing Lemmings smileys are already special cases not conforming to :
keyword: or :
group-keyword:
That said, maybe the argument is that the benefits of using (-
: over :
lix-smile: are unclear/weak at best. I expect (though admittedly without hard data) that most people will see the smileys in their graphic form, and insert them most of the time by clicking on their graphics. Thus the encodings are irrelevant most of the time except in the case of accidental instances (a point Simon raised, which I've tried to address by being mindful of it, hence the proposal of o-
: instead of o
: for example). For the minority cases where the smileys will be displayed without graphics (eg. proposed "lite" theme or the user profile setting to turn off smileys), or where the user chooses to type out the encoding manually, there are some pros and cons between (-
: vs :
lix-smile:, none of which particularly stands out to me (but mostly because I simply don't fall into the minority cases with my usage patterns).
Anyway, so one vote for (Proxima) and one vote against (Simon) so far. :-\ I'd like this proposal settled before I started adding the Lix smileys.
Quote from: Proxima on February 23, 2015, 01:39:43 PM(What character is the backwards D?)
I just randomly perused in the Character Map application on Windows, and ran into U+2C6D "Latin Capital Letter Alpha" which looks very close to a backwards D. For all I know the Unicode standard might actually have a true "backwards D" somewhere. To be honest, I'm slightly wary of introducing non-ASCII characters into the encodings (for one thing, it defeats the purpose of being able to easily type out by hand). I was inspired to do so mainly because of D
:, but in hindsight I should probably go with (|
: instead.
Quote from: Simon on February 23, 2015, 05:00:35 PMThe original issue for this thread is still there, smileys for different expressions are too similar.
Hmm, so how do you see it play out in my compromise proposal where all three variants of :
o are available? Is it important that any existing posts using :
o be changed to a new smiley graphic, or is it okay to leave that encoding unchanged as long as the proposed improved variants are available for use under other encodings? Or is a compromise already not acceptable on the grounds of (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif) still being in existence?
[edit: or did I misread, and you mean that the proposed Lix set still has too many similar-looking expressions?]
Quote from: Simon on February 23, 2015, 05:00:35 PM
If you want a second set of smileys, :group-mood: seems to me a better code, more memorable for whoever has typed :mood: per hand so far already. And it's guaranteed prefix-free. :keyword: is standard on other boards for nonstandard replacements.
Seconded. The novelty of :ⱭX: will wear off very quickly. Honestly, I don't see the need make the smiley-codes cutesy at all. I'd rather be able to type :
) and have it display as I've written it. If I want :) then I'll just click the button, or else memorize :smile: if I really need to type it out.
( Also, colon-parenthesis are useful as text on their own :
)
( Also, colon-parenthesis are useful as text on their own :)
So definitely, :group-name: seems like an excellent hierarchy structure that is flexible for future modifications.
^ Seconding this suggestion. :agree:
So, just to make this explicit / check that I understand the suggestions:
- All smiley codes take the form :lemming-smile: (with some exceptions? :8():)
- :) etc. aren't smiley codes any more and just appear as written
- Existing instances of :) get edited to :lemming-smile:, to maintain the intentions of the poster at the time
And if that's not what's being suggested, then I'm suggesting it right now :lix:
I'm under the impression Simon's against introducing new smiley codes that are non-conforming to :group-keyword:, but was not pushing for changing all existing codes into conformance, even if I'm sure he's fine with doing so. If anything, I kinda feel bad for Simon as this whole thread's ballooned off to all these different directions with all these extra smileys that, neat as they are, have very little to do with his original request (which I promise I'll get to, operating under a "wait for roughly 24 hours has passed and no one clearly communicated objections to my compromise proposal, so let's go with that and it's not completely set in stone in worst case" directive).
Anything that involves automated bulk-updating of existing posts I will need to defer to namida due to experience (including more experiencing in restoring from backups, which is always a worst case possibility). Please balance that consideration against how soon you want the new smileys be made available for use.
If you go ahead with this and are waiting for me to update old posts, just temporarily have two copies of all pre-existing smilies, with the new shortcuts being the ones that are visible and the old ones being hidden ones.
Quote from: Clam on February 24, 2015, 08:13:01 AMSo, just to make this explicit / check that I understand the suggestions:
- All smiley codes take the form :lemming-smile: (with some exceptions? :8():)
- :) etc. aren't smiley codes any more and just appear as written
- Existing instances of :) get edited to :lemming-smile:, to maintain the intentions of the poster at the time
And if that's not what's being suggested, then I'm suggesting it right now :lix:
Hold on...aren't you the same person that was making fun of my :
lemming: for (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/lemming.gif) on IRC? ??? And then proceeded to come up with super creative and
highly nonconforming encodings for that? :lix-suspicious: :P
Considering that this seems to have come out of nowhere, can we consider that just because it is theoretically possible doesn't mean it is necessary? Are we asking for it just because I opened the floodgates to changing the smileys, or is there an actual proven problem to address? I don't believe the common smileys like :
) have been causing problems
in practice in terms of accidental instances or the rare need to suppress their conversion to graphics, or else the issues would've been brought up already on this thread before all the new smileys came up.
Also, I wonder whether there might be some people who are simply more used to just typing out :
) for the commonly used smileys because that's how they'd have to do it in other mediums like IRC. With that in mind, we would be actually conforming to a more widely adopted standard to stick with the current encodings for the "common" smileys? New smileys can stick with :
group-mood: since most of them are likely specialized and won't have a "common" encoding (though even the Clam seems to be an exception already...)
Anyhow, just my 2 cents before we rashly head into the big change.
Quote from: ccexplore on February 24, 2015, 08:46:17 AMPlease balance that consideration against how soon you want the new smileys be made available for use.
It occurred to me this is totally misleading since the new smileys are pretty much independent of the questionable request to update existing smileys' encodings. This is what happens when multiple requests sort get all lumped together. :XD:
So as there have been no further objections, all the smileys that have been proposed on the thread have now been added (accessible on post form as the usual clickable images). All the Lix smileys are encoded as :
lix-<BLAH>
:, and we have
:
o => (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif) (tooltip: "Surprised")
:
lem-shocked: => (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/shocked-new.png) (tooltip: "Shocked!")
:
lem-mindblown: => (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/Smileys/lemmings/mindblown.png) (tooltip: "Mind Blown!!!")
I realize the definition of "compromise" generally means "no one's actually happy". That said, the alternative could mean some people simply stop using the smiley for the surprised/shocked emotion, a situation which can be considered a sort of "invisible smiley", which might be considered worse than the problem of too few differentiated pixels or lack of mouth? ;)
Quote from: ccexplore on February 24, 2015, 11:29:43 PM
Also, I wonder whether there might be some people who are simply more used to just typing out :) for the commonly used smileys because that's how they'd have to do it in other mediums like IRC.
Those people are also used to their smileys being seen as written. :
)
I say :lix-mystery: should be renamed "Emo Lix". :P
Quote from: NaOH on February 24, 2015, 11:44:42 PMQuote from: ccexplore on February 24, 2015, 11:29:43 PM
Also, I wonder whether there might be some people who are simply more used to just typing out :) for the commonly used smileys because that's how they'd have to do it in other mediums like IRC.
Those people are also used to their smileys being seen as written. :)
Isn't that more about the client software they may be using? I imagine some IRC clients may have the feature to automatically convert common smiley encodings into graphics exactly like what the forum is doing to posts. On the flip side, historically speaking we know that :
) was used precisely because it was the only way at the time to display the smiley, rather than being an expressed desire to show off ASCII art.
Also, while I mentioned IRC, it may also be worth considering the case of people using other SMF and similar forums. I could be wrong but I presume on most such forums, the settings are left at the defaults in which the common encodings are recognized and automatically displayed as graphics.
I will concede the point though that ultimately this (ie. what to do with common smiley encodings) involves what is essentially a user preference setting, one which doesn't currently exist from what I can tell. (There is one that applies to the post itself, but it must be set on a post-by-post fashion and cannot be applied on a finer granularity.) Maybe namida is onto something when he proposed we modified the forum software?
Anyhow, since the new smileys are now available, as far as I care my work is done. The rest can be taken care of by others. ;)
Quote from: namida on February 24, 2015, 11:59:10 PM
I say :lix-mystery: should be renamed "Emo Lix". :P
life is pain :lix-wink:
:lix-emo:
...I couldn't resist adding it. :P
Quote from: ccexplore on February 25, 2015, 12:08:55 AM
Quote from: NaOH on February 24, 2015, 11:44:42 PMQuote from: ccexplore on February 24, 2015, 11:29:43 PM
Also, I wonder whether there might be some people who are simply more used to just typing out :) for the commonly used smileys because that's how they'd have to do it in other mediums like IRC.
Those people are also used to their smileys being seen as written. :)
Isn't that more about the client software they may be using? I imagine some IRC clients may have the feature to automatically convert common smiley encodings into graphics exactly like what the forum is doing to posts.
Then they have already consented that their smileys will look different to them than they do to other people. Only they -- and anyone else with the same client -- will see the smiley.
IRC with inline graphical smileys? :sick:
Always always always always always design as if people will use it for n years, not 2 weeks.
-- Simon
Quote from: NaOH on February 24, 2015, 11:44:42 PM
Quote from: ccexplore on February 24, 2015, 11:29:43 PM
Also, I wonder whether there might be some people who are simply more used to just typing out :) for the commonly used smileys because that's how they'd have to do it in other mediums like IRC.
Those people are also used to their smileys being seen as written. :)
I don't do the whole IRC thing, but that's how I write my smileys here... :P
Are we now not having the commonly-accepted standard way of writing them auto-convert to the graphical ones anymore, or am I misunderstanding? :lem-mindblown:
No, nothing's changed (at least not that I'm aware of; one of the other admins may have changed something). It's possible to turn smileys off on a per-post basis, or even make smileys (and formatting tags) be ignored for part of a post by surrounding that part with [nobbc][/nobbc] tags.
Should there also be a Zombie Lemming emoticon in the style of Doomsday Lemmings?
^ Seems I missed that post. I dunno, I don't think there's too much need for it? If people feel otherwise, I could add it.
Anyway, I did add three new smileys that may be useful when discussing NeoLemmix talismans. (And - just for the record - if there's any similar ones that may be useful for other lemmings clones, don't hesitate to ask!)
:tal-bronze: :tal-silver: :tal-gold:
The codes are :tal-bronze: :tal-silver: :tal-gold: respectively.
(Should perhaps more relating to lemmings stats etc be added, so that rather than spell out "Lemmings" "Save requirement" "Time" etc, we can just have smileys of icons for them when discussing these things?)