[EDITOR][SUGGESTION]Merge exit pieces in original/ohno tilesets into one object

[IchoTolot]

Then I don't understand your point and problem really.

- The user can choose which one he needs.   The new combined one or a separeted piece in the old format.
- It is easy to see what each tile is.
- To have 2 tiles more in a tileset is not a big thing.
- If it's enough and easier to use the topless one in a scenario then simply use it.

These mismatches come from designing the level with a perfectly-topped exit, and later moving the exit slightly. It's easy to forget the top. It's a mental blind spot anyway: The exit is in place, and the top is always on the exit, so we should not have to think about it.

This is disarmed by the fact that you will have the combined one at your disposal. If you use the seperated top it's often in another place for decoration.

And I also have memories of you yelling about how beautiful some exits were designed in some bubble levels

[Nepster]

If you put together your exit like in the picture you are blind anyway!

Thanks for calling me blind .
Btw. it is far more common mistake that the top is one or two pixels too low, because that is far less visible. I corrected this quite a few times while updating the old Lemmix levels.

Also sometimes just the lower part of the exit is placed as well! When it is placed in a rather narrow area or under a thin piece of terrain.

Please link to examples where one wants to place only the lower part. I see it far more often (e.g. in Colorful Arty's Cheese level) that a top is not placed because it would be completely hidden by terrain, but then the player goes and removes some terrain over the exit and now the topless exit looks extremely ugly.
The only level that I know of, where topless exits were useful, is Pieuw's "Utopia". And I am far from convinced that we should keep topless exits, just because of this one single level. (So it is even more useless than invisibility, though far less prone to abusement).

Add a new object to each relevant tileset which is:  Exit + top half!

No, no, no, don't clutter the object list any more by adding resp. keeping useless tiles. We want a fast way to select the desired piece, so we want to keep every list of terrain/object pieces as small as possible! Otherwise we only get annoyed by having to scroll though very rarely used tiles.


So my vote goes straight for: Remove the "topless exit", add "exit + top" and (to keep other people happy) keep the decoration piece as an extra piece, where this makes sense (e.g. not for the brick style).
In cases where the exit is already complete without the animated top (e.g. the snow style), I would just leave the objects as they are currently.

EDIT: Added special case for snow style.

[IchoTolot]

Apocalypse maintenant for example uses a topless exit as the top would hinder the sight of the area above. + I wouldn't even dare disturb the beauty of Pieuw's Utopia for this.

And please don't overreact that much over adding ONE object. The list is very short right now and that doesn't hurt it.

[Dullstar]

Since we're on the subject of exits used without the top, could you provide an example (screenshot preferred) of a level which doesn't use one? I do have one such level that I've made, but I'm almost certain it was an oversight on my part - I can say for certain that if I were to re-release the level, the top would be added to the exit.

[namida]

Since we're on the subject of exits used without the top, could you provide an example (screenshot preferred) of a level which doesn't use one? I do have one such level that I've made, but I'm almost certain it was an oversight on my part - I can say for certain that if I were to re-release the level, the top would be added to the exit.

Pieuw's "Utopia", mentioned a few posts earlier. Which for the record, is both visually and gameplay-wise one of the best levels I've ever encountered.

[Simon]

Editor hand-waves: Have only separate pieces, and make the editor align them for you. When you put an exit, the editor maintains flames above it, but without putting the top tile. Even though the flames aren't part of the topless exit, the editor displays flames above the exit, both in the picker window and in the level rendering. Likewise, the game shows the flames.

For the 1 in 500 times where existing culture calls for a topless exit, we uncheck a flag per exit tile. The editor presents us with awesome professional flags like fake and invisible. Spawn-deco fits perfectly in line.

Burden: The code needs an extra class, exit-with-spawnable-deco, that is different from closed-exit and regular-exit.

Burden 2: We keep support for topless exits, and offer it in the UI.

Pieuw has relied on a performance hack to make art. Hacks incur cost, regardless of beautiful results. Nothing is holy.

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

I had another random thought on how to do this, but it might be too complicated.

Add the ability to treat a group of objects as one object.  Exits would be by default treated as one object, and placed accordingly, but if one really wanted to, you could split them back up and delete the top.  This could also be used to easily move or duplicate large terrain pieces made of several smaller ones, without having to grab all of their component pieces every time.

[namida]

You already suggested that.

[Simon]

Aside from this deco-exit thing, no grouping of gadgets, please. What functionality would it enable that you don't get from ungrouped aligning? The deco-exit merge is different because these tiles should go together over 99 % of the time. This split in L1 was a misdesign.

Next idea: Hack mode. The editor allows only full exits, no invis, no fake, etc., when the editor is in regular non-hack mode. Hack mode is an editor-global option, you activate it for the odd level that rely on weird crap.

Reason: Icho gets to preserve history with 100 % accuracy. I get to keep the user interface simple, and can enjoy the occasional artful hack. Nepster gets to cull fake and invis from cluttering the non-hack-mode's tile flag window.

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

You already suggested that.

I promise it was a slightly different idea, but I don't think I explained it well enough to make that clear.  They were very closely related, however.

[IchoTolot]

Aside from this deco-exit thing, no grouping of gadgets, please. What functionality would it enable that you don't get from ungrouped aligning? The deco-exit merge is different because these tiles should go together over 99 % of the time. This split in L1 was a misdesign.

Next idea: Hack mode. The editor allows only full exits, no invis, no fake, etc., when the editor is in regular non-hack mode. Hack mode is an editor-global option, you activate it for the odd level that rely on weird crap.

Reason: Icho gets to preserve history with 100 % accuracy. I get to keep the user interface simple, and can enjoy the occasional artful hack. Nepster gets to cull fake and invis from cluttering the non-hack-mode's tile flag window.

-- Simon

I don't wanna preserve everything 100%, but I like having the options to create what I want how I want in the editor and sacrifice some simplicity for it, even if it is not used in a regular base.
I would put timers, VSI and even OWW in the same category.
Like, I personally don't need invis, but I highly respect other levels that are useing it in a honorful way (like LP IV's Minesweeper). I can see a bit of use in fake for using trap parts as decoration and making them harmless (Padgoda St). And I think having the option to only use 1 of 2 parts of the exit leads to interesting designs (Utopia).
Hell, you can make an "easy mode" where these options are not displayed for newbies if that's the case and with a check in "advanced option" or sth you get access to them. I won't call it a hack as this implies negativity from the getgo.

I like to have my options and I thought by having just 1 extra object (the full exit) would have been a great compromise for both sides here, but apparently I just like "weird crap".

[Simon]

Hell, you can make an "easy mode"
check in "advanced option" or sth you get access to them.
I won't call it a hack as this implies negativity from the getgo.

Good, then we're on to something.

This ties in well with your extra piece, because we can hide the clutter. Or auto-align two separate pieces. There are new details to think about now. Many of them hinge on ease of implementation.

"Easy" carries negative connotations as much as "hack" does. "Standard" and "advanced" sounds neutral. Good with me.

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

Random thought:
What if there was an eraser for objects like there is for terrain?  That way if you wanted to use just the top or the bottom of the exit, you'd just erase the part you don't want (set exit to fake if using only the top).

One issue this would raise is the ability to create invisible objects, which is in the majority of cases bad design (although I think there's already a tag for that in the editor, so...)

Any current levels like Utopia would probably have to be manually fixed, but there don't seem to be enough of them for this to be a problem.

[namida]

One issue this would raise is the ability to create invisible objects, which is in the majority of cases bad design (although I think there's already a tag for that in the editor, so...)

Yes, invisible objects are already possible. Even if the option didn't exist, and no kind of "object eraser" existed either; there is still a very simple way to create invisible objects: Create a new object that has the desired trigger area, but a blank graphic. The reverse (graphic, with no trigger area) can be used for fake objects, too. This, combined with the existance of levels that do make good use of such features, are the reasons behind the ultimate decision to not cull those options.