Community Request: Find Backroutes!

[mobius]

@Crane: another backroute for Pipe Dream. (saving 100% no less, which feels like an accomplishment, the level seems very daunting at first) I hope I used the right version, the last one uploaded in this thread (I'm pretty sure...)

Some comments:

the terrain on the left is designed in such a way that it allows you to dig, then mine so that the rest turn around but it's a little annoyingly precise to pull off. [maybe not that much. It's difficult to tell because I'm always tired and grumpy when I get home and play Lemmings...]If this is intended, could it be made to be easier? If not, then another minor change is all would take to remove that.

I feel like part of the intended solution is to have a climber go up from the left, since the bubble wall there is flat. Also the climber in my sol. probably isn't needed; it just made it easier. with some RR fiddling you ought to be able to get a guy to go past the miner while he's mining. While this part feels like a backroute it also feels possibly intended? with that piece of pipe there... If not, you could remove that or put steel there. Remember you can use steel in the bubble set now. 

If you'd like you can send me the intended solutions to these three levels and I can try to help you fix them. Sometimes fixing a backroute can be as hard a puzzle as solving a level! [Often I found it difficult to fix a level then suddenly realized a simple way; thinking "why didn't I think of that before?"  I have not tried the other two levels yet.

I know I already made a comment but again; all of these are very difficult and even from this point; they have a feeling of being impossible at first, and even after a lot of thinking. On a similar nature to Duality and that's going at the end or near the end of the pack.

Btw, Duality, I just found out, has 2 other solutions! one which does not use the trick you mentioned in this thread (one may not work in Lemmini/SuperLemmini however). Both are quite neat and I won't do anything to change the level.
I also learned the intended solution to Serendipity and will be promptly fixing that and moving it to much later in the pack
I'd really like to see intended solutions to the other levels of Yawg, if anybody has them or any solutions of any kind, please post them here or PM me if you can.

As for Deep Freeze, I will consider it, however I've already got a few levels of similar nature under consideration. [not Lem Dunk]

@Nepster: For some reason when I load your replays it brings up the older versions of the levels. I don't know why, I haven't done anything differently. Since when I bring the level up first it's fine, and it changes when I load your replay I assume it's something to do with your replay, but I really don't know. Maybe we aren't using the same version of SuperLemmini?

I watched a little of it anyway, [didn't want to watch the whole thing in fear of it crashing and having to re-extract the files again] and it looks like you may have the intended sol.? yeah i didn't really get much...

[Nepster]

@mobius about watching my replays: You should have some subfolder with my levelpack.ini in it. Have you replaced the levels in this subfolder by their newest version? If you still have an old version there, this might explain why SuperLemmini loads the wrong level.

I have played most levels of Yawg, but have neither replays at the moment nor know the intended solutions. Are there any levels, you are especially interested in seeing solutions? I don't feel like recording about 60 solutions at the moment .

[mobius]

@mobius about watching my replays: You should have some subfolder with my levelpack.ini in it. Have you replaced the levels in this subfolder by their newest version? If you still have an old version there, this might explain why SuperLemmini loads the wrong level.

I have played most levels of Yawg, but have neither replays at the moment nor know the intended solutions. Are there any levels, you are especially interested in seeing solutions? I don't feel like recording about 60 solutions at the moment .

thank you, that was all it was! Sorry for the hassle.

Minimal Trouble; you got the basic idea, this is only slightly different in approach to mine and in a timing level like this it's good to have leeway so I won't change anything. 

Primal Tech: Good job! no backroute 

Daedalus: This is much closer to the intended. the only part that's off is the weird digger/building thing. Thanks for the detail comments on it.
As for the traps: I forgot that SuperLemmini works differently and I probably don't need to have the traps as they are. (right now they're two of each, one embedded in the wall so it actually works (in Lemmini).

about Yawg; yeah there are replays I'd like to see, but you don't have to bother with them because the level(s) I'm most curious about have a zillion horrible backroutes [Paitence, Young Grasshopper, and Bat Country are the two I'm concerned with now]. This one is ridiculously easy and I've not been able to see anything close to an intended solution. [until recently...] But now after seeing the real solution to Serendipity I feel like this one could have a real interesting solution too...

[mobius]

1. Some odd and convoluted attempted at reconciling this level. I found something that I thought maybe is somewhat close to what the intended solution was supposed to be. If this fails or nobody likes this level I'll scrap it.

2. A level by H0ru5 that's stumped me forever and I couldn't find replays for it anywhere. This is a "revised" version.

3. First attempt at fixing Serendipity. I'm pretty sure it needs more than this but I'm terrible at finding backroutes on my own so I uploaded this in the meantime for anyone to try.

[Crane]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the terrain thing möbius, although I can promise it isn't the intended solution.

These versions of the levels are likely not the final versions, but I want to see if modifications of backroutes still work on them.  Pipe Dream has been modified somewhat in one region to better resemble the original version, just because it unintentionally made the intended solution more convoluted than a backroute.

ADDITIONAL: Just played the modified Deep Freeze... good grief that is a hard level.  Saving 94% isn't too hard, but 95% is a nightmare!  I just hope it isn't too frustrating.  Mind you, I'm one to talk because I made it, just not with those requirements!  I would ponder about making it 80 lemmings, save 75, or 100 lemmings, save 95 (just because 95% looks nicer than 94%).  It depends on what others think though and what level of difficulty we want.  By the way, Nepster, what's your solution?  Just I have to undermine the blocker at the top of the right steps with the last lemming out the trapdoor, using my final 2 floaters to save them from kersplat.

[Crane]

Fixed a bug in Pipe Dream (one of the traps didn't trigger) and I also made the intended solution a bit fairer, since changing some scenery previously had made the solution unfairly precise.  I might remove that little barrier in the bottom right corner to neaten the level eventually, but I need to ensure it doesn't cause backroutes.

[namida]

Solved Gyps Isles, though it feels kind of backroutey. Used CustLemm mechanics, though it shouldn't matter (might not work on NeoLemmix though).

[Nepster]

Pipe Dream: Another solution, which I should have seen earlier.
Mastermind: Not much of an improvement since the last version.
Jailbreak: The additional trap makes the backroute certainly harder, but I am not convinced yet that it is completely removed. I will check in the next few days.

Deep Freeze: I would be interested in seeing what you did. My solution is attached below and I don't have to undermine any blocker.
As for allowing to lose 5 lemmings: It seems to me that in this case, you could simply trap the lemmings from the middle hatch between two blockers and then stop worrying about them. But this is precisely the solution I wanted to avoid.
I agree with your difficulty assertion, but still prefer the harder version.

Serendipity: My solution feels intended.
Patience, Grasshopper: I am saving quite a few more lemmings than required.
Gyps Island: namida's comments apply as well to my solution.

[namida]

Your method on Gyps Isles is one I initially considered but didnt think the time would allow for.

[mobius]

Gyps Isles:
I was hoping there would be a more elegant way of releasing the blockers on this level but it seems like not. What do you think of this level (with backroutes fixed if that's a possibility) yay or nay?

Patience, Young Grasshopper:
Here are my unnecessarily detailed thoughts on this level:

Given that it is by Yawg and in his 5th pack it seems like it should be a difficult level. But with the comments like this; http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=8.msg3972#msg3972 there is very little to go on.
I like the design and layout of this level a lot but the backroute problem is obviously a serious issue. I really wish I knew the intended solution because Yawg's created some really ingenious designs in levels like Duality, Serendipity and Mass Lemicide. For the longest time I couldn't even hazard a guess as to what an intended solution might be. But I think I may have hit upon something that's maybe close to it.

The most puzzling thing is undoubtedly the save requirement. Besides being unusually low (less than 50%) 18 seems like a specific number, not just a random low number to allow plenty of lemmings to die for leeway or something of that nature. Even if you compress lemmings to send them through the many traps you can save way more than 45%.
There are 8 bombers, now the only place I can see to use them in any obvious manner is to bomb down the middle area right under the hatch. The problem is using walking bombers, so with the given blockers maybe you were supposed to hold in the crowd right above that area then bomb down.
You can also send a small 99RR'd group of lemming through the mashers to let one or two workers go ahead. With Lemmix steel detection you could mine left down below the 10-ton trap. Then have the group that bombed down the middle bash right to that area.
The problem is even this method still saves more than 18. Without trying really hard I think I saved 22-25 lemmings.

Another bizarre idea I had was; sending lemming left across the water, down below. Then using builders on the diagonal gap on the right to extend a basher across those two large bodies of dirt. The problem with this method is there's scarcely enough builders to pull it off, and no way to hold in the crowd (that I've yet found).

A solution which I like is the one Icho T0lot posted on youtube; going left and up over the top. Still, this is a backroute obviously, saving way more than the strange 45%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4UEzxu4_mc&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlJc4yCh5nRL0pxylTVeAUBm&index=78

I have a bizarre feeling that the intended solution may actually involve sending lemmings all over the place; on top, underneath... maybe through the mashers etc and a lot of multitasking. Even with the low save requirement you still need to hold in the crowd someway. The low lemming count to begin with ensures that to some degree I think.
Hey I know, let's bring ccx on the job 
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found what may be close to an intended solution for t3telsa's ROCKY ROAD:
[removing the remaining blocker+bomber might enforce this, no? This was still pretty easy to find, though again, like the majority of the levels in this pack I did not see it right away.

[Crane]

I have to give you credit on that one Nepster - that backroute was incredibly clean and surprisingly difficult to patch, to the point that the pipework down in the bottom right corner looks somewhat tacky now.  I've also removed that little stump near the bubbling water - hopefully it doesn't open anything up.

I've also attached my solution to Deep Freeze, (with a minor mistake that I recovered from).  While I do pen in the lemmings at the top, I have to use some trickery to release one of the blockers to save the required percentage.

I'll withdraw Mastermind for now.  Pipe Dream and JAILBREAK! I plan to keep.

(Remember with the replay, you have to load Deep Freeze as the first custom level (right after you open SuperLemmini) for it to work)

[Crane]

I've made modified versions of the two levels that, if backroute-free, will hopefully be the versions that I will submit for Revenge of the Lemmings.

- JAILBREAK! has had the arches lowered slightly so the intended solution is a little less unfair with the precision.  Bashing at ground level will still breach the arch though and cause lemmings to fall through the bottom of the screen.

- Pipe Dream is now named Overflow and the whole level has been shifted more towards the centre of the screen.  The bottom right corner has been tidied up and the suction trap has been replaced with one-way arrows again.  I don't think it has opened up a backroute, but if anyone can check I will be most grateful.

Once the backroutes are ironed out, I can provide replays of the intended solutions if requested to do so.

[mobius]

1- a version of Rocky Road which I think may allow only 1 or at least no really simple solutions. It's been altered quite a bit however; I thought of the title "Cracking Up" because of the terrain but if anyone has a better idea I'll accept it.

2- a version of Ice Ice Lemming which is a little more forviging on timing (but still tough which is the point of the level) and a blower trap that hopefully removes the backroute. I removed the miner in case it offered a backroute, even thought I kind of wanted to keep it since that's part of what stumped me on the level. Also made time limit 1 m-10 seconds.

working title: "Snow Time!" as in "s'no time" heh heh, yeah open to other ideas here too.

3- Lemmings in a Situation; with just a few slight alterations I think the level's decently more difficult. This should, again, limit the simple solutions while still keeping the obtuseness of the level. Renamed to "Big Trouble in Little Level" [a title which I wanted for one of my own levels but oh well]

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some special levels to be added to the set yet:

Hotel in Hell - Proxima [needs the everything set for a single death trap in fire]
special levels:
Prince of Persia - Proxima
Monolith - ISteve, thinking about remaking this in Pieuw's Castle set
a sonic level
GLITCHSPACE - Gronkling [though it requires a glitch (stuck climber), I'm still considering it for it's special graphics.
2013 - christmas level by uci

I'm looking for other special terrain Levels. I'd like one in each  rating.

notes:
all the tutorial levels are duplicates of later levels. And a few of the later levels of fun are duplicates as well.
One way block duped for the "Keep hair on" level; so the later level is "One way block part 2"; actually I'll ask Minim about that

[mobius]

unfortunately I found a pretty nasty backtoute (but easy to fix most likely) to Overflow. Why didn't I think of this sooner? 

I couldn't solve Jailbreak yet.

[Crane]

Hah, that's an interesting one, because you dug straight through a steel zone (one surrounds the trap's housing, which I hope is excuseable).  I guess one way walls cancel them out.  Try this one.  I just hope the removal of the one way arrows in that region don't open up a new backroute.

EDIT: I've added some hints to both JAILBREAK! and Overflow, a new feature of SuperLemmini.  It's up to you if you view them or not, or if they even remain in Revenge of the Lemmings.