"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

The 2 builders [on "Come on over to my place"], on the other hand, is definitely worthy of being a Bronze talisman challenge IMO.

Bronze? But we could resolve this by making the talisman 1 builder, which is definitely worthy of Gold.

Anyhow, the next thing to be decided is time limits (which to retain; whether to change any). We've had a good amount of discussion on this already, so I'll just summarise what's been said so far.

Everyone is in favour of removing time limits on most levels. Only sixteen levels have been proposed as exceptions, to which I'll add one more, "Fall and no life (Part Two)". So we agree on removing the time limits for all levels other than those listed below. I'll list them in a rough order, from the ones where I most strongly favour keeping the time limit, to ones where I don't.

No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches -- On all these, the time limit is the main point of the level, and removing it makes the level trivial.

Oh No! Squish -- Time limit prevents a trivial solution, bashing under the entire level.

Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time -- These all have 1 minute. I believe this is a clear signal that the developers intended these to be low-time-limit levels, and we should respect that, regardless of whether infinite time would allow a larger set of solutions; e.g. on Five Alive it's almost certainly impossible to keep the level playing longer than a minute in any case. (Nepster wants to keep the time limit on Speed Trap and It's hero time; namida has proposed a terrain change to It's hero time that prevents an athlete going up the right side of the level, which the time limit also prevents.)

(Nepster cut-off: Nepster proposes removing all time limits below this point.)

Just a Quicky -- The level title suggests a short time limit, though the given 2 minutes is actually far more than the level requires. So I suggest reducing the time limit to 1 minute (which does not make it much harder; it would still probably end up being the first time-limited level in the ordering).

Hello John! Got a New Lemming? -- The time limit provides a satisfying feeling of being just in time, without actually making the level much harder.

Fall and no life (Part Two) -- Same, as regards the main solution, although other (faster) solutions exist.

Scaling the Heights -- Same (if we keep to the original 2 minutes). My solution saves the required number in 1:33 and saves all in 1:45, if I multitask the miner and the long bridge. If instead I start the bridge just after assigning the miner, I still complete within 2 minutes. So I'm on the fence about this level; the fact that you can multitask and finish with a lot of time to spare means the time limit isn't doing very much. Namida, what was your reason for wanting to keep this time limit?

(Proxima cut-off: I propose removing all time limits below this point.)

ONWARD AND UPWARD -- The time limit encourages the solution with the basher-turning trick, but doesn't enforce it. I believe it was not the developers' intention to require this trick (just because it seems a bit too obscure for ONML). The trick is the only way to achieve lose-3, so we could make that a talisman.

THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS, Lemming about town -- On bsmith's list, but namida, Nepster and I do not see why these time limits should be retained.

(Feel free to continue looking for other levels that should keep their time limits that we've overlooked.)

[Proxima]

Some more thoughts about It's hero time....

I have never actually played the level on Amiga (or emulator), but I believe that all versions except Lix allow a variety of solutions, so we don't know whether there was ever a specific intended solution.

The set of possible solutions varies from one version to another, because of the variation in clock speed.

It's been suggested that the title refers to an intended solution in which only one lemming takes skills. However, this doesn't work in NL; whether you mine or dig at the start, the worker lemming does not end up at the front of the crowd. A solution that is otherwise the same still works, but more than one lemming takes skills, so new players won't make that connection with the title.

A no-climber solution exists (and works in NL). This would be an interesting talisman. It requires 58 seconds, since the trap is built over, making the last lemming's journey longer than in solutions that mine or dig before the trap.

The fastest solution requires about 42 seconds. This is the only possible solution in Lix, which has a faster clock; and I remember finding it a fun challenge to find a solution with that constraint. If we want to enforce a smaller set of solutions, we could shorten the time limit to 45 seconds (but then we would lose the possibility of the no-climber talisman).

Conversely, removing the time limit (without namida's terrain change) allows solutions in which the trap is built over by a climber. However, it's quite tricky to find such a solution (at least as tricky as solving normally) so I would not class this as a backroute. If we want to take this option, it would make possible an interesting talisman that's not possible otherwise: no basher.

There is a class of solutions that narrowly fails in NL, in which the last lemming walks to the steel over the water. Time runs out after 27 or 28 are saved. Because this fails so narrowly, the player may get stuck trying to refine this solution, without realising that the last lemming's journey time is the deciding factor and so it cannot be made to work. In my opinion, this is the biggest problem with keeping the status quo (1 minute, no terrain change). We could shorten the time limit to make it more obvious that this route fails, or give more time (or unlimited time) to allow it to succeed.

In short, the level has an interesting set of possible solutions no matter what we do, so it's very hard to decide what requirements to set

[Nepster]

Regarding It's hero time:

There is a class of solutions that narrowly fails in NL, in which the last lemming walks to the steel over the water.

I prefer to adapt the level slightly to allow for these solutions, as they are a pretty natural class of solutions and fail due to only 8 frames. Moreover they have been possible in the DOS version and (according to some youtube videos) in the Amiga version as well. One possible change would be to move the platform with the water and steel slightly to the left (and perhaps the starting platform, too).

Conversely, removing the time limit (without namida's terrain change) allows solutions in which the trap is built over by a climber.

I am against this change however, because it allows for a solution that traps the crowd with the blocker. And I feel that the ever-moving crowd is one of the key characteristics of this level.

Regarding the talisman suggestions:
- no-climber solution: The 41-sec. solution can be adapted to a no-climber solution. Curiously that was the first 41-sec. solution I found.
- no-basher solution: I am against this talisman, because it indeed requires removing the time limit. But then a 3-skill solution works (with builder, miner and digger) which uses 1:12.54. This is another reason against removing the time limit completely.
- skills-to-only-one-lemming: This solution still works in NL in principal, but requires at the moment 1:00.24. It's actually a very nice solution and requires much less precision than e.g. the no-climber 41-sec. solution.

[Proxima]

I prefer to adapt the level slightly to allow for these solutions, as they are a pretty natural class of solutions and fail due to only 8 frames. Moreover they have been possible in the DOS version and (according to some youtube videos) in the Amiga version as well. One possible change would be to move the platform with the water and steel slightly to the left (and perhaps the starting platform, too).

Thanks. I would also like to keep these solutions, since this was how I originally solved the level (I first played the Mac version, which has one of the slowest clocks). Perhaps the simplest change that allows this (other than giving more time) is just to move the hatch a bit to the right. I haven't found the skills-to-1-lemming NL solution yet, but presumably that would also be possible then? Although I don't know whether we want to have multiple talismans for one level. Does any Lemmings Plus level do this?

[Nepster]

Perhaps the simplest change that allows this (other than giving more time) is just to move the hatch a bit to the right. I haven't found the skills-to-1-lemming NL solution yet, but presumably that would also be possible then?

Yes, correct. Well, at least as long as you don't block several other solutions with the hatch movement, too.

Although I don't know whether we want to have multiple talismans for one level. Does any Lemmings Plus level do this?

LemPlus V has three talismans just for the final level.

[bsmith]

No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches, Oh No! Squish, Speed Trap, Five Alive - Keep the time limit as is.

Hello John! Got A New Lemming, Onward and Upward, The Silence of the Lemmings, Lemming About Town - Tight time limits, but the limits do not seem to add much.  I'm fine with removing the limits on these level.

It's Hero Time - The time limit seems appropriate, except for the fact there are so many solutions in the 1:01-1:02 range due to engine differences.  I want to keep the 1 minute time limit with a terrain change - move the short wall in the lower left to the right a bit so that leftward lemmings turn around a little sooner (or making that wall thicker would also work).

Just A Quicky - It takes 1:21 for all 40 lemmings to reach the exit without adjusting the release rate.  The name suggests a time constraint, so I support changing the time limit to 1 minute.

Fall and no life (Part Two), Scaling the Heights - I'm undecided with these two.

[Proxima]

Proposed modification of "It's hero time". The thin bricks at the lower-left have been replaced by horizontal bricks. This allows the class of solutions we were discussing where the last lemming walks to the steel. It also allows the skills-to-1-lemming solution, which could be a talisman.

[Proxima]

As there has been no further input, it looks like this is the situation:

Consensus for keeping the time limit:
No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches, Oh No! Squish, Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time (with terrain change).

Consensus for dropping the time limit:
Onward and Upward, The Silence of the Lemmings, Lemming about town (and all levels other than the 17 mentioned in this post).

No consensus:
Just a Quicky -- Proxima, bsmith favour reducing the time limit to 1 minute. Nepster wants to remove it; namida wants to keep the original 2 minutes.

Hello John -- Proxima, namida favour keeping the time limit; Nepster wants to remove it; bsmith "is fine with removing" (but prefers keeping?)

Scaling the Heights -- Proxima favours keeping the original time limit (2:00), Nepster wants to remove it, namida proposes 2:20, and bsmith is undecided.

Fall and no life (Part Two) -- Proxima wants to keep the time limit, bsmith is undecided, and there are no other votes since the level was only recently proposed.

What's the best way for us to move on? Has anyone changed their opinion other than those listed above?

[namida]

I don't object too strongly to a change to 1min for Just A Quicky, I guess. Nor am I too worried what happens with Scaling The Heights.

Hello John I'm very much in favor of keeping it.

I'll have to take another look at Fall And No Life Pt2 before I give any further answer there.

[Proxima]

I just had another look at FANL2 myself, including looking back at old posts to see what the various solutions people had come up with were.

My solution was the slowest, only just finishing in time on the Genesis. But on NL it has nearly 20 seconds to spare because of the slower clock. Because of this leeway, it's possible to bash rather than mine to contain the crowd, and not use a basher to stop the builder early, thus saving a miner overall.

Faster solutions seem to depend on the "miner turns on OWW" behaviour, which doesn't work in NL.

So my proposal is that we keep the time limit, and remove one miner (which also has the advantage of making the skillset a symmetrical 1-5-5-1). That's if we're going for a version where my solution is intended. If we want to keep all the solutions in, we should add a layer of non-OWW terrain above the OWW to allow miner turning, keep the second miner, and drop the time limit.

Incidentally, while looking through old posts for this, I stumbled on a topic in which I'd asked Mike Dailly which solution to "It's hero time" was intended -- and it was one of the solutions in which the last lemming walks to the steel, so we made the right call there.

[bsmith]

In my opinion we can keep the time limit on 'Fall and No Life part 2' as long as the skillset stays unchanged. My fastest solution in the current NL engine uses all the skills and finishes in 2:26.  This time could be a few seconds shorter with the old miner-on-OWW behavior, maybe sub 2:20.

Is there a solution to 'Hello John' that would be possible without the time limit?  I have two variations of what I think is the intended solution, depending on which hatch the athlete comes out of.  Both of these finish within the 3:00 time limit.

If we keep a time limit on 'Scaling the Heights' it should be the original 2:00 time limit.

[Proxima]

I'd like to see your solution to FANL2.

Also, Nepster asked to see mine, so here's a replay.

[Nepster]

Regarding FANL2:
Basically I am very happy with Proxima's suggestion. But I still see two small problems:
1) There is a backroute, that uses only 2:14 (see attachment). I would suggest enlarging the one-way-wall on the right to reach deeper.

2) Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If one misses the builder trick at the end, and does not use the basher at the first builder, but to create a gap at the last bridge, the solution takes exactly 3:01.00. Some more tricks to shave off a few frames look feasable, but unfortunately fail due to single pixels or would only work with RR40 instead or RR50. So I would prefer if the intended solution took 3-4 seconds longer to make it clear that another trick is needed.

Is there a solution to 'Hello John' that would be possible without the time limit?  I have two variations of what I think is the intended solution, depending on which hatch the athlete comes out of.  Both of these finish within the 3:00 time limit.

I posted a screenshot of the final frame of such a solution a few weeks ago.

The time limit basically prevents... (click to show/hide)

... that the athlete makes 1,5 rounds through the level.

[bsmith]

My first solution to FANL2 is very similar to Proxima's.  Attached is my fast solution.
I agree that the backroute Nepster illustrates needs to be fixed, but I suggest adding one steel block to the left of the current steel rather than extending the one way arrows.

Hello John does seem to need its time limit to prevent stuff like Nepster has shown.

[Proxima]

Neat, but I would class this as a backroute since it doesn't go through the OWW on the far left; even more so in NL since the miner turning behaviour doesn't normally work, but you used a trick to make it work anyway. So my current inclination is to make the following changes:

- Keep the time limit;
- Prevent Nepster's backroute as suggested, by adding another steel block;
- Remove one miner, preventing bsmith's backroute;
- Move the exit to the left so Nepster's 3:01 variation on the solution works.

Would that be okay?

* * *

It looks like we've reached a consensus regarding Just a Quicky (change to 1 minute) and Hello John (keep time limit), but no progress towards a consensus on Scaling the Heights.