Author Topic: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix. (Read 128345 times)

Nepster · « **Reply #120 on:** April 26, 2016, 03:49:40 PM »

Quote from: Proxima on April 26, 2016, 02:12:52 PM

For now, I don't agree with removing levels just because they "don't bring anything new", if they are fun to play, which is of course subjective.

If enough people find these levels to be fun to play, then I am not against keeping them. However I did not find them memorable, which is a strong indicator for me, that these levels are not a good fit for a "best of" level pack.

Quote from: Proxima on April 26, 2016, 02:12:52 PM

Disagree with Pea Soup, which is tedious and virtually the same as Stepping Stones.

Don't know about the list on page 3, but in namida's latest list I haven't seen Stepping Stones. I totally agree that at most one of "Pea Soup" and "Stepping Stones" should be included.

Quote from: Proxima on April 26, 2016, 02:12:52 PM

Disagree with Present 4, which has too many hidden traps. Present 3 or 5 would be a better additional easy level.

Oops, I totally forgot about the hidden traps in Present 4. So I change my opinion to "only add this level, if the hidden traps get made visible or if they are completely removed". I still think that the terrain layout is interesting.
Present 5 is already included in namida's latest list. Present 3 is too builder-heavy in my opinion.

namida · « **Reply #121 on:** April 26, 2016, 04:24:02 PM »

So, here's what I'm getting from the posts since my last list (just focusing on levels for now, not difficulty):

Minim ----- Full list:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nepster
-------
ADD
Fun 12 (Patience): Easy level, which teaches high RR.
Fun 21 (You live and Lem): Again an easy level, which is much more interesting than the Tame levels.
Fun 27 (Let's be careful out there): Same here.
Tricky 5 (Careless clicking costs lives): Not as good as the previous two, but still superior to the Tames.
Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup):
Crazy 13 (It's a trade off): Nice relatively simple idea.
Wild 2 (Lemming Hotel): Lots of skills and many different easy obstacles. Good level to transition from introduction levels to more advanced stuff.
Wild 12 (SNOW JOKE): Lots of different easy obstacles again.
H93 Flurry 11 (At Home in a Cave): If you another candidate to replace the Tame levels with...
H93 Flurry 12 (Presents of Mind): Another simple level, that is better than the Tames.
H94 Blizzard 1 (Oogilemming!): Not the best level ever, but certainly better than Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land).
Genesis 23 (No choice but to follow them): Nice level of medium difficulty.
Genesis 39 (Climb and Fall, Fall and Climb): Good level idea, that doesn't really appear in any other level.
Present 4 (Lemmings standing on the earth): Lots of skills, not too long and not trivial either. (Only if traps made visible or removed)
Sega 5 (SEGA Five): One of the best levels to replace the tame stuff.
PSP 14 (Tunnel Vision): Very smart level idea.
PSP 18 (The run around): The little sister of Lemming Caper.
PSP 24 (With a little help from my Lem): Another very good level with only two lemmings.
PSP 26 (Back of the net): Very unique level idea.
PSP 35 (No justice for the hero): Multiple solutions, none of the straight-forward.
REMOVE
Fun 22 (Beast of a level): Even if it is a VGASpec, this level is boring to play.
Tricky 11 (Lemmings in the attic): Builder-heavy and uninteresting.
Tricky 23 (From The Boundary Line): "Cascade" is superior in every aspect, so this level doesn't give anything new. Note that the easy version Fun 12 is in the list to be added.
Tricky 28 (Lost something?): Totally uninteresting with no replay-value at all!
Taxing 3 (Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)): Builder-heavy. Caging the lemmings without blockers can be learned in other levels as well.
Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery): Worse than first version of this level, Tricky 5, which I noted to be included instead. Stright-forward solution to an easy level. So if should be a proper easy level with more skills.
Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land): Way too much building. Perhaps replace with H93 Blizzard 1.
Taxing 21 (Feel the heat!): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
Taxing 27 (Call in the bomb squad): Genesis 17 (which is included as well) has the same idea and is not only constant repetition of "block-bomb-build".
Taxing 29 (How do I dig up the way?): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
Mayhem 1 (Steel Works): WTF??? Builder-heavy, a non-obvious spatting fall at the beginning and the very real possibility to be one or two builders short at the end.
Mayhem 9 (Curse of the Pharaohs): There are much better replacements out there, see suggestions for inclusions.
Mayhem 11 (We all fall down): NeoLemmix has rendered this level totally trivial and uninteresting.
Mayhem 16 (Just a Minute...): Part 2 suffices. The first level does not add any additional value.
Mayhem 30 (Rendezvous at the Mountain): Boooring!
Tame 9-14: All of them totally uninteresting. The remaining two tame levels are more than enough. See my suggestions for other easy levels below.
Crazy 17 (DIGGING FOR VICTORY): Apart from a terribly tight time limit, this is very straight-forward with obvious placement of skills and not much replay value.
Wild 3 (Lemming Rhythms): Does this add anything new?
Wild 5 (Lemming Head): Does this add anything new?
Wild 7 (You Take the High Road): In principal an acceptable level. However the great amount of scrolling required kills all the fun.
Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING): As gimmicks get removed, this becomes an extremely boring level.
Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!): As one can simply ignore two hatches, this essentially is a repeat of Wild 1. So this adds nothing to the level pack.
Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): The straight-forward bottom path is just terribly annoying. Either modify the level to remove this path or remove the level altogether.
Wicked 19 (Up, Down or Round and Round): Pixel-precise placement of builders AND a hidden trap

Havoc 6 (Now get out of that!): Wicked 5 (Chill out!) is far superior.
Havoc 11 (Welcome to the party, pal!): Tedious to the extreme!
Havoc 16 (Scaling the Heights): Not a bad level per se, only very fiddly. There are much better stuff to choose from.
H94 Hail 1 (Go Thataway!): Crazy 7 is just superior.
H94 Hail 6 (Surprise Package?): On No, more nuke abuse!
H94 Hail 12 (Merry Christmaze): Just build at the top... So why have this level? The idea might be nice, but no like this!
Present 22 (None title): The first version of this level is excellent, but this one? Simply uninteresting compared to that.
Present 25 (Underground city): Not a really bad level, just a very mediocre level. The first solution that comes to the mind is not really nice and clean.
Present 29 (Private Rooms Available): Pixel-precise nonsense.
Present 30 (Final impediment): Does this add anything new?
Sunsoft 9 (Evacuating a Coal Mine): Does this add anything new?
Sunsoft 18 (Sunsoft Special): Far uglier than all other VGASpecs and most normal levels as well. Furthermore totally boring and absolutely trivial.
Sunsoft 27 (Two heads are better): I don't see any value in this level any more, now that we have untimed bomber.

Proxima
-------
ADD
Fun 12: "Patience" Agreement with Nepster
Fun 21: "You Live And Lem" Agreement with Minim and Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
   Fun 27: "Let's be careful out there" Agreement with Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
   Tricky 5: "Careless Clicking Costs Lives" Agreement with Nepster
Tame 5: "Snuggle Up To A Lemming" Introduces steel
Present 19: "Acrophobia". Agreement with Minim
REMOVE
Tricky 23: "From The Boundary Line" Agreement with Nepster
   Taxing 8: "The Art Gallery" Agreement with Nepster
   Taxing 29: "How Do I Dig Up The Way?" Agreement with Nepster
   Mayhem 11: "We All Fall Down" Agreement with Nepster
< Most of Tame, apart from 1, 4, 5 >
   Crazy 17: "DIGGING FOR VICTORY" Agreement with Nepster
   Wicked 18: "LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom" Agreement with Nepster
   Wicked 19: "Up, Down or Round and Round" Agreement with Nepster
   Havoc 6: "Now get out of that!" Agreement with Nepster
   Havoc 11: "Welcome to the party, pal!" Agreement with Nepster
   Hail 1: "Go Thataway!" Agreement with Nepster
   Hail 12: "Merry Christmaze" Agreement with Nepster
   Present 22: "None title" Agreement with Nepster
   Present 25: "Underground city" Agreement with Nepster
   Sunsoft 27: "Two heads are better" Agreement with Nepster[/tt]

Have I missed anything, or are there any comments on any of the suggestions here?

Dullstar · « **Reply #122 on:** April 26, 2016, 05:59:49 PM »

Assuming we're still dividing levels into ranks, I don't think we have enough easy levels to fill a rank; however, I'd have to go through the games to see if there are any specifically that should be added, since a decent number of them (e.g. most of Tame) would just end up being padding.

In regards to the current list of Tame levels:
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings" - No opinion. It's a very easy level, but it's also the first one in ONML. If we use it, it should probably be directly following the tutorial levels, as the first level to give you options on what skills to choose.
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" - This is probably the best level in the Tame set, so we should keep this one. It's similar to the blocker tutorial level, but it gives options to save 100% if you want.
Tame 08 "Dangerzone" - I think this one could be a good level with some minor modifications. If we increased the release rate enough so that lemmings would definitely turn around it would make a good level to teach crowd control.
Tame 09 "And Now This..." - Probably redundant with a combination of Down and Out Lemmings (Tame 1) and Builders Will Help You Here (Fun 7). It's basically an easier version of Fun 7 that also gives you the option of bashing through the last obstacle instead of building over it.
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block" - It's a bit unnecessarily large, but that's not hard to fix. It could be a good level to introduce using digging tools to avoid splatting, but that would probably require removing the first obstacle (as bashers going through have a pretty good chance of just continuing to bash, which eliminates having to worry about that drop at all).
Tame 11 "With Compliments" - I feel like this is redundant with Tame 1.
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming" - This could be an alternative to You Need Bashers This Time, but I don't feel like it's good for much else.
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help" - I feel like it could be a good early crowd control level with a higher release rate.

For Just A Minute: The levels are fairly similar, but I'd suggest keeping Part 1 over Part 2, as they are similar difficulty conceptually, but Part 2 is just a little more annoying to execute. Being able to easily pause buffer in NeoLemmix makes it more bearable, but I think it would be better to use the one that's more easily completed without it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for VGASpecs, I'd suggest going all-or-nothing on them; specifically, I'd suggest removing all of them.
They were originally one per rank and I feel like having, like, one or two remaining would feel out of place.
Besides, they all have trivial solutions and the only thing that makes the later ones harder than the earlier ones is that there's more junk terrain for builders to get stuck on in AWESOME, and, in the context of NeoLemmix the fact that some terrain that LOOKS solid in Beast II isn't (under the original game's mechanics, you can also add having to quickly assign a builder to a basher; pause buffering is easier in NeoLemmix so I don't think this applies anymore).
MENACING and Beast 1 are about equally difficult, and are both boring levels (although Beast 1 does at least look pretty, so there's that).

Don't know if any ports have any of their own VGASpec-type levels, so I can't comment about any in ports.

namida · « **Reply #123 on:** April 26, 2016, 06:09:55 PM »

Quote

Don't know if any ports have any of their own VGASpec-type levels, so I can't comment about any in ports.

The Genesis version has one extra VGASPEC ("Sunsoft Special"). The four that are also found in the standard versions are altered in Genesis, to be much shorter. See:

A Beast Of A Level
Menacing!
What an AWESOME level!
A BeastII Of A Level
Sunsoft Special

I had earlier proposed that if we are going to use VGASPEC levels, we should use the Genesis versions as they're far less tedious. No decision was ever made (nor even much discussion) of whether to do so or not, beyond using Sunsoft Special as the 5th VGASPEC level if we needed one.

I myself originally supported not including VGASPECs; it seemed like people wanted them, so I went with a one-per-rank structure.

ccexplore · « **Reply #124 on:** April 26, 2016, 07:26:13 PM »

Quote from: namida on April 26, 2016, 06:09:55 PM

I had earlier proposed that if we are going to use VGASPEC levels, we should use the Genesis versions as they're far less tedious.

I think I'd use the Genesis versions of Beast1 and Menacing, but DOS versions for Awesome and Beast2. Basically, since none of them are particularly interesting in the puzzle department, I think I would err more on the side of having the more complete visuals. Beast1 is fine since the DOS version basically just have more of the same boring trees, and Genesis Menacing pretty much keeps everything visually interesting in DOS and only reduces lengths of the boring walking parts (though I'd like add back in that floating island over the gap that was removed in Genesis). Whereas Awesome in Genesis cut off the head of the second dragon, and Beast2 cut out that heart-shaped terrain island in the middle.

For reference, here are screenshots taken from TLE for the DOS/Amiga versions of the special levels:

A Beast Of A Level
Menacing!
What an AWESOME level!
A BeastII Of A Level

Dullstar · « **Reply #125 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:18:05 PM »

In the case that we do keep the VGASpecs, would it be possible to make the collision on Beast II's terrain better? I've always thought that object in the middle looks like it should be completely solid, but it's not.

I'd also suggest making the stars in AWESOME background objects.

namida · « **Reply #126 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:21:38 PM »

Former is possible, latter is (at this stage) not. Whether it's an acceptable modification or not would need further discussion.

Dullstar · « **Reply #127 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:35:47 PM »

I just noticed in addition to the Tame levels I commented on Tame 05 "Snuggle up to a lemming" was also proposed. I agree with adding this one for the reason that it introduces steel. Might be a good idea to remove some of the unused space to make it more NeoLemmixy though.

Proxima · « **Reply #128 on:** April 26, 2016, 11:09:39 PM »

Quote from: ccexplore on April 26, 2016, 07:26:13 PM

I think I'd use the Genesis versions of Beast1 and Menacing, but DOS versions for Awesome and Beast2.

I strongly agree with this suggestion.

bsmith · « **Reply #129 on:** April 27, 2016, 04:42:56 PM »

Big thanks to namida for collecting all those level opinions in one post. I used that information along with some of the attached lists earlier in the thread to create a set of 127 levels. These levels seem to have strong overall support. I divided them into 5 ranks according to where myself and others had already placed them, with a few adjustments to make the per rank totals roughly equal (24-26 per rank).

I am hoping that this list is relatively accurate of the community as a whole and can be used to start fine-tuning level selection and placement.

Dullstar · « **Reply #130 on:** April 27, 2016, 06:49:40 PM »

I think "Quote: That's a good level" might be better off as an early rank 2, assuming Rank 1 should have a similar difficulty to the Fun levels of the original game. Upsidedown World might be better off in Rank 3 rather than Rank 4, assuming the climbability of the Terrain gets fixed. In addition, there are probably better Tame levels than "Custom Built for Lemmings."
Across the Gap is kinda hard to execute, so I think it might be better in Rank 3 or 4 rather than 2.

I don't recognize most of the levels from ports, so I don't have an opinion on those. I haven't ever finished ONML, either. I should probably do that so I can comment on the later levels.

---

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

So I've been playing through ONML recently, and I'd just like to make a note about its level design in general.
Compared to the first game, it seems to focus a lot more on execution than on puzzle solving, which means several levels will be trivialized by NeoLemmix mechanics (haven't checked with our list of candidate levels to see if any of them specifically will be, just talking in general). Many (probably at least half) of them commit the level design sin of the "Time limit that doesn't really restrict the solution set in any way, but makes it so you inevitably have to go back and release the lemmings earlier because you waited too long to do it." I assume (greatly hope) we'll be removing the time limits from these levels, but that may have an effect on how easy/difficult different levels are, since NeoLemmix is designed in such a way that it's a lot more about the puzzle solving and a lot less about perfect execution.

So, how does this little rant about ONML level design relate to this?
My main point is that we should probably "NeoLemmixize" all of the levels we plan on including before attempting to put them into difficulty ranks.
I'd also suggest whittling down the list to slightly more than however many levels we decide to include, and make the decisions on further cuts based on the edited, rather than the original, versions of the levels.

bsmith · « **Reply #131 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:42:31 PM »

Actually I expect to add more levels to this set of 127. This list was complied from just 4 people's opinions. If you think there are levels that should be added, just say so.

The rankings can change and most likely will. The way I placed them is just a rough sort.

Things like closing backroutes and removing unnecessary time limits will come after we have a final list. Our main focus right now is choosing which levels to include.

namida · « **Reply #132 on:** April 30, 2016, 04:16:44 PM »

Quote

So, how does this little rant about ONML level design relate to this?
My main point is that we should probably "NeoLemmixize" all of the levels we plan on including before attempting to put them into difficulty ranks.

For around 95% of levels (I'd estimate), the only change that will be made is maybe removing the time limit. Obviously, for levels where the time limit is one of the main sources of difficulty (eg. Taxing 3, Mayhem 16), is used to avoid backroutes (eg. Mayhem 3), or possibly exists for a thematic reason (eg. Tricky 21), it wouldn't be removed.

It remains to be discussed exactly how aggressive we'd be with backroute fixes, but even the suggestion of fixing Mayhem 13 wasn't too well-received. So likely, it would only be the extreme cases like "Let's Go Camping" that will get fixes in the end.

namida · « **Reply #133 on:** May 31, 2016, 10:15:57 PM »

To the people who previously indicated they'd like to give further input: Are you still wanting to do so?

If you're wanting to but haven't had the time yet, that's fine, there's no rush for this project. I'd like to have it ready by the time the next stable NeoLemmix (major) update comes out so that it can be shipped with it, but as you're all well aware, that's probably quite some time away still. However, if you're no longer interested in giving the input at all, perhaps it's time to start trying to compile the existing input into a finalized level list, and begin ordering the levels.

bsmith · « **Reply #134 on:** June 05, 2016, 02:39:17 PM »

I have 23 more levels I think should be included (in addition to the cross-compiled list of 127):
Tricky   11   Lemmings in the attic
Taxing   15   What an AWESOME level
Taxing   18   Tribute to M.C.Escher
Tame   1   Down And Out Lemmings
Tame   5   Snuggle up to a Lemming
Tame   9   And now this...
Crazy   2   Dolly Dimple
Wild   12   SNOW JOKE
Wild   16   Take care, Sweetie
Mayhem   16   Just a Minute...
Wicked   10   Temple of Love
Havoc   16   Scaling the Heights
Hail   4   Lemmintaschen?
Genesis   23   No choice but to follow them
Present   4   Lemmings standing on the earth
Present   9   Fix the road, quick!
Sunsoft   14   No world without you
Sunsoft   18   SUNSOFT Special
Sunsoft   19   Let's go camping
PSP   14   Tunnel vision
PSP   18   The run around
Other   3   Go for it!
Other   8   It's not over 'til it's over

I don't have any strong feelings about any other levels.

Poll

Should we use Amiga or Genesis for the special graphics levels?

Author Topic: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix. (Read 128345 times)

Nepster

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

namida

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

Dullstar

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

namida

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

ccexplore

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

Dullstar

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

namida

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

Dullstar

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

Proxima

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

bsmith

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

Dullstar

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

bsmith

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

namida

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

namida

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

bsmith

Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.