"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Snuggle up to a lemming: I would favour mobius' suggestion of moving the exit so as to use more of the level area. If not, then I believe we should keep the decorative terrain, as the original games make good use of decorative terrain to produce memorable levels. (We are keeping the decorative terrain in "Turn around young lemmings", aren't we? [Goes to check] Yes.)

Both of these levels have quite an excessive amount of it. I would not be opposed to (but nor do I particularly strongly favor) removing it in both. However, I would think it was weird if we were to remove it in one but not the other.

No added colors: Even if the backroute doesn't work with 30 lemmings, the player is more likely to waste time attempting it, so I would keep the original lemming count for that reason.

This makes sense.

One more level to keep the original lemming count: The gate trap lemmings. It feels like having to avoid the stragglers from the left hatch splatting in the digger pit was intended to be part of the level.

Fair enough.

Again I would give a little bit more lemmings than the bare minimum, so that less experienced players have no problem executing this solution. As the idea is by no means obvious, I think we should honor them for the idea and not make the execution harder than necessary. So I still vote for 60 instead of 50 lemmings, especially as the level has RR99, i.e. becomes only 3 seconds longer with this change.

60 doesn't make it much less pressure than 50, but I see your point. So let's change this one back to 100. (I guess 75 could also work, but this is a somewhat unusual number of lemmings to have - though arguably, to a new player, less weird than 80.)

[bsmith]

I have gotten most of the way through another playthrough of the pack (the version before namida made his proposed lemmings count adjustments).

Often by the time I had effectively completed my solution I either have a bunch of lemmings yet to come out or they have already all come out, very few levels were close.  So my thought is for any level with at most 20 lemmings leave it alone.  For levels with more than 20 lemmings reduce the count by cutting in half the excess over 20 (equivalently cut the total in half and add 10).

Exceptions I would make to this rule to keep the original count: Patience, I Have a Cunning Plan, Cascade, No Time for a Detour, Just a Minute, It's Hero Time, Which One are You Trying to Get, Just a Minute Part 2.  All these levels seem to already have been mentioned already to keep the original counts, plus a few more I don't object to.

[Dullstar]

I have gotten most of the way through another playthrough of the pack (the version before namida made his proposed lemmings count adjustments).

Often by the time I had effectively completed my solution I either have a bunch of lemmings yet to come out or they have already all come out, very few levels were close.  So my thought is for any level with at most 20 lemmings leave it alone.  For levels with more than 20 lemmings reduce the count by cutting in half the excess over 20 (equivalently cut the total in half and add 10).

Exceptions I would make to this rule to keep the original count: Patience, I Have a Cunning Plan, Cascade, No Time for a Detour, Just a Minute, It's Hero Time, Which One are You Trying to Get, Just a Minute Part 2.  All these levels seem to already have been mentioned already to keep the original counts, plus a few more I don't object to.

I like this idea for setting the lemming counts, but I would also add a step to it:

If 20 lemmings or less:
    do nothing
Otherwise:
    1/2 number of lemmings
    add 10
    round to nearest 5

(note: I checked to make sure that cutting the total in half and adding 10 was equivalent to cutting in half the excess over 20, which it is)

Proof in case that seems a bit odd like it did to me when I first read that line (click to show/hide)

Cutting in half the excess over 20 could be written this way:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings - 20)/2)

Rewriting the fraction:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings/2) - 20/2)

Simplify
Total Lemmings = 20 + (number of lemmings/2) - 10
Total Lemmings = 10 + (number of lemmings/2)

[Proxima]

As the most common lemming counts are 50, 80 and 100, the proposed "half + 10" would make the most common values 35, 50, 60. This has two disadvantages: firstly, 35 is a less appealing number than 25, 30 or 40. It's still a round number, since it ends in 5, but being 5 x 7, it's less comfortable and familiar than the numbers made up of only the primes 2, 3 and 5. Secondly, 60 is still quite a lot of lemmings, and I would rather keep to a maximum of 50, except for the few levels we've decided should keep their original count. (Nepster's list agrees -- 50 is the maximum he uses, with one exception, "Triple Trouble". For that level, it makes sense to use a multiple of 3, since the NL version has ABCABC window ordering.)

[Proxima]

So, we had two weeks without any posts; I think we're not going to get much more input and we should push towards final decisions on these issues, preferably one at a time so good points about one issue don't get lost in the discussion of another. Since the last few posts have been about the lemming count issue, how about we tackle that one first? (I'm not trying to take over the leadership role, but I think someone needs to provide a push to keep this moving, so it may sound like that at times.)

Of the five who've input on the issue, everyone is in favour of reductions, so we can go ahead with that. The biggest question is whether to make the initial reductions on the basis of original lemming counts (namida's proposal), or number spawned after building the route (Nepster's proposal); either way there will be individual exceptions.

So far, only Nepster is in favour of the second alternative, and the only reasons he's given amount to "there will need to be individual exceptions", which isn't really an argument either way for which general method to choose.

I strongly favour the first general method, for the following reasons:
* It's more faithful to the original developers' intentions. They chose to work with a maximum of 100 lemmings, to use exactly that number on certain levels, and to use a smaller number on certain other levels. We'd be reducing the maximum to 50 but keeping the relative counts the same (with particular exceptions where necessary).
* Always spawning exactly as many lemmings as can come out in the time taken to build the route feels much too neat and clinical. True, this is what we're doing in the Lix pack, but that's because of a historical accident that doesn't apply to Lemmings. The Lix pack was designed, in its entirety, for an engine that supported variable release rate; this support was then removed. It's been firmly decided that variable release rate is staying in NL.
* Time taken to build the route is variable, as there are often multiple routes. For instance, on "Doomsday", Nepster's proposal for a drastic reduction in lemming count is probably based on a short route by bombing through the one-way wall. But I think we can trust that a player able to come up with an advanced tactic like that also knows how to change the release rate!

(While writing this post, I've played through a lot of the levels where namida's and Nepster's recommendations differ, and I think several of them may be due to Nepster using short routes that newer players wouldn't be expected to find. Others are, quite frankly, baffling; for instance, without steel glitches I can't see any way to do "The Far Side" quickly enough that namida's 40/40 would be a problem.)

So, I think we should keep namida's lemming counts in general (rather than the proposed "half + 10" alternative; I've given my reasons for this in the above post). But there are two groups of levels that should be exceptions: those that need to keep their original count (already discussed), and those where namida's count is much higher than the number spawned while building the route. Also, for the beginning of the pack, where 10 and 30 are the only lemming counts appearing, I prefer to change this to 10 and 20.

So, here's my list of suggested lemming counts, together with namida's for comparison, and Nepster's if it differs from mine. For all levels not listed, I support keeping the count produced by namida's formula:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tailor-made for blockers: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
You need bashers this time: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
A task for blockers and bombers: 5/20 (n: 10/30)
Builders will help you here: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
All 3 Tame levels: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
A Block from Home: 15/20 (n: 35/40)
Patience: keep original count
Rainbow Island: 29/30 (n: 49/50)

I have a cunning plan: keep original count
Go for it!: keep original count
Cascade: keep original count

Don't leave any Lemmings: 5/30 (n: 15/30)
Acrophobia: 24/25 (n: 49/50; Ne: 19/20)
No time for a detour: keep original count

With a twist of lemming please: 10/10 (n: 30/30, Ne: 20/20)
The gate trap Lemmings: keep original count
Just a Minute...: keep original count
Jump down!: 30/30 (n: 50/50; Ne: 20/20)
It's all a matter of timing: 15/15 (n: 40/40)
No hurry, Relax.: 13/30 (n: 33/50, Ne: 13/40 -- but this must be a typo as lose-27 allows backroutes)
Down the tube: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)

No added colors or Lemmings: keep original count
Anxiety: Just noting this as a level where Nepster's proposal (20/20) is definitely too low as it prevents some good solutions
The Lemming Funhouse: 18/20 (n: 38/40, Ne: 8/10)
Just a Minute (Part Two): keep original count
Watch right or left (Part two): 16/20 (n: 26/30, Ne: 6/10)
Steel Block Party: 20/20 (n: 40/40)
Got anything... Lemmingy?: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)
Lemmy in the cold, cold ground: 30/30 (n: 40/40)
Triple Trouble: 59/60 (n: 49/50)

[Nepster]

Assuming Proxima's changes have made to namida's new lemming counts, I still have a few requests for changes, but mostly concerning the save requirements. Only 5 levels where I suggest further reductions, and 2 levels where I want to have more lemmings.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A Beast of a Level (Fun 16): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50, because we want to allow the player to use all bombers/blockers.
Darkness of the Royal family (Fun 24): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. If one does not block at the beginning, the 5 additional lemmings that one may lose make a great difference.
Just A Quicky (Tricky 8): 40 lemmings for this incredibly short level sill feels way too much, especially with the low RR 1. Is there any solution that isn't finished when the 20th lemming appears?
Compression Method 1 (Tricky 22): First of all I would keep the original lemming count of 30/50, instead of 20/30, unless someone can give me a reason for the reduced lemming count? Secondly I disagree with terrain changes here, because this opens a new solution: Dig down below the left-most hatch until the digger hits the steel, then collect the lemmings there and finally free them with another basher. I feel that whatever terrain change we make, freeing the lemmings from the digger hole with the basher should not be possible.
No choice but to follow them (Tricky 25): With the low RR10 and short solution, I still prefer a slightly lower lemming count.
Don't leave any lemmings (Wild 8): Save requirement of 5/30, instead of 15/30. This is a bomber level and we should allow the same amount of bombers than the original version, which is 25.
Electric Circuit (Wild 18): Here I prefer to have more lemmings, because we should not have a gap in the lemmings train in the upper loop. So either keep the original count, or use 80/80.
Worra load of old blocks (Wild 27): I distinctly remember squisher traps in this level! Where have they gone?
AAARRRGGGGHHH! (Mayhem 6): Is there any solution where the path to the exit isn't finished by the 21st lemming? If not, then why do we give 30(!) more lemmings in this level? I prefer 30/30 over 50/50.
Rocky Road (Mayhem 9): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. Allowing to lose 10 lemmings makes it possible to use all blockers and then to pass one of the traps with a tight group of lemmings.
Synchronized Lemmings (Mayhem 13): Do we want to force players to set the RR to 99, or not? If not, then we have to reduce the lemming count again.
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility (Mayhem 22): Is there any solution where the fath to the exit is not finished after 20 or even 10 lemmings? If not, then I would prefer a further reduction of the lemming count.
Down, along, up... in that order (Havoc 8): Save requirement of 20/40, instead of 30/40. One easily loses lemmings in that level.
Oh, no! Squish! (Havoc 26): Again the question: Any solution that is not yet finished after 10 lemmings? If not, then a reduction to at most 20 lemmings should be made.
Save Me! (Havoc 29): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50. There are many ways to kill lemmings, if one isn't careful. So allowing the original kill quota seems preferable.

[Proxima]

Replies to Nepster's comments:

A beast of a level: There are several more levels where the reduced lemming counts prevent using all bombers, e.g. the Tame levels. So either we should relax the save requirement consistently in all such levels, or reduce the number of bombers, or just accept that this is how things are. My preference is for the third option. It's not as though there's much temptation to use bombers on these levels, when there are much easier routes.
Darkness of the royal family: Agreed.
Just a Quicky: Agreed.
Compression Method 1: A very similar solution is possible on the original level; just bomb the digger to stop him going too far. So I don't see this as a major problem. (But yes, keep the original count here, since with RR 99 everyone comes out quickly. Or 30/40 to have a multiple of 4.)
No choice but to follow them: Sure, change this to 30/30.
Don't leave any lemmings: Already on my list
Electric circuit: Agreed, keep the original count for that reason.
Worra load of old blocks: Deciding whether to remove hidden traps, or keep them but make them visible, is one of the things on the current agenda. As I said, I think we should deal with the issues one at a time so they don't get in each other's way.
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!: Agreed, reduce to 30/30.
Rocky Road: Agreed.
Synchronised Lemming: As it's a 1-minute level, I feel that setting the RR to 99 at a good time was meant to be part of the level.
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility: Yes, reduce to 18/30 (but no lower, since we don't want it to be possible to ignore one hatch).
Down, along, up. In that order: Agreed.
Oh No! Squish!: My solution finishes after 20 lemmings, not 10. As with "Synchronised Lemming", I think getting everyone out in time is meant to be part of the challenge, but I'm not completely against reducing it if others want to.
Save Me: Agreed.

[Proxima]

Sorry for being lazy earlier. Here's LEMTRIS updated to include the decorative terrain below the level.

[bsmith]

Okay, I looked at the levels in Proxima's and Nepster's lists.  Most of the changes I am fine with.  Otherwise I have the following thoughts:

The three Tame levels: If we reduce the counts to save 10/20 should we also reduce the skill counts to 10 of each? The builders only solution to Get a Little Extra Help is doable with just 10.

Beast of a Level: I agree with Nepster to use 30/50.

Don't Leave any Lemmings: This is a bomber level, but with no thick blocks of terrain that need many bombers to blast through.  Can we save 10/30 and reduce the skills to 20 of each? I can solve this level with just 8 of each, so reducing supplies from 30 to 20 should not be a major factor.

With a Twist of Lemming, Please: I know we want to reduce this count due to the mass assignment of floaters. I would have originally supported a low number like 10 or 15 but now I think 25 or 30 is better.  My reasoning is to play this level without changing the release rate and treat it like a multitasking challenge like AAARRRGGGHHH.  The 27th lemming appears just when I finish the route.  25-30 lemmings would also make for a talisman based on multitasking: Finish the level in 2 minutes without adjusting the release rate.

Down, along, up... in that order:  I'm okay with a more relaxed save requirement.  For a new player, figuring out and executing the staircase trick is enough of a challenge.

Oh No Squish:  In my opinion part of the challenge is the time limit and getting everyone through in that time, so keep the original count.

Save Me:  This is a level where I would keep the tighter 40/50 requirement proposed.  I always thought the lynchpin of the level was how to get two scouts out to the left side.

[Proxima]

Okay, given there is support for the idea of ensuring that (most) easy levels don't have more bombers than you can afford to lose, I suggest the following changes:

Tame levels: 10/20 and 10 of each, as bsmith suggested. This has the advantage that "Get a little extra help" builders-only becomes more of a puzzle and not just builder-spamming.

A Block from Home: 10/20 and 10 of each.
Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming: 20/30 and 10 of each.
Where do you see Lemmings?: keep as-is, 28/30 and 20 of each. The original level is lose-2 so we should respect that.
Lemmings in the attic: 20/30 and 10 of each, 50 builders. (This is still enough for a no-builders solve, if we want to make that a talisman.)
A Beast of a level: 30/50 as mentioned.
Let's be careful out there: Not sure, maybe 10/20 and 10 of each? This is one level where the normal (long way) solution involves a lot of waiting even though most lemmings are out by the time the route is built, so it might be an idea to reduce the numbers.
Doomsday: keep as-is, same as Where do you see Lemmings?
Rainbow Island: keep as-is, same reason.
A Spot of Bother: keep as-is, same reason.
CindyLand: 33/40 and 7 of each.
Turn around young lemmings: 35/50.
Don't leave any Lemmings: I agree that requiring 5/30 looks odd so I'm fine with making it 10/30 and 20 of each.

[bsmith]

I like this list of recommended changes.  The only level I disagree with is 'Let's be careful out there'.  The original is 25/50 with 20 of each, not enough to just float the required minimum to the exit.  Having 10/20 with 10 of everything would create that backroute.  15/30 or 20/40 with 10 of everything would be my recommendation, if we change the counts at all.

Also 'Let's be careful out there' has its harder brother later in the pack: 'Come on over to my place'.  This has 50/50 with a select skillset.  I suggest matching the number of lemmings released and making this one 30/30 if we use 15/30 for the easy version. 

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

[Nepster]

I can agree with the proposed further changes.

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

In my opinion the 2-builder solution makes for a more interesting talisman to this level.

[Proxima]

I'm not taking over leadership of this project, but namida has said it's okay for me to help with editing and building the NXP. I've designated this version 0.2.0 since two tasks are complete: selecting levels, and deciding on lemming counts / save requirements. Everything else is still up for further discussion -- which levels should have time limits; terrain changes; backroute fixes; level ordering.

As well as the changes we agreed on above, I've made these changes:

* Used my suggested rank names, since I proposed them a while ago and no-one has objected;
* Switched "Lemmings in the attic" with "CindyLand", and "LEMTRIS" with "Pillar talking";
* Fixed the typo "Fourms" on the title screen
* Relaxed save requirements on "MENACING" and "What an AWESOME level" to match the change to "A beast of a level";
* Since most N-of-each levels are now 10 rather than 20, I've changed "You live and Lem" to match. This simplifies the proposed talisman, "bombers and builders only" rather than "10 bombers, 10 builders only".
* Used my new version of "LEMTRIS" with decorative terrain.

Save Me is still 40/50 as we didn't agree on whether or not to change. Casting vote from namida, perhaps?

[namida]

I don't particularly see a huge problem with either. Lose-10 doesn't add much to the level, because generally, a solution that loses 10 is probably going to lose most (or all) lemmings anyway. But for the same reason, Lose-20 doesn't really come across as any different. I'll perhaps go with "keep it as lose-10" solely on the grounds of that there isn't much reason to make a special case for it.

[namida]

* Since most N-of-each levels are now 10 rather than 20, I've changed "You live and Lem" to match. This simplifies the proposed talisman, "bombers and builders only" rather than "10 bombers, 10 builders only".

And save 40 lemmings. It's a lot easier if you're allowed to lose 20 rather than 10. (Alternatively, the level as a whole could be made lose-10.)


I notice that on Gentle 22, the one way arrows don't quite cover the terrain they're on exactly. Is there a good reason for this? If not, it's probably something that should be fixed. (This may also hold true for other levels in some cases.)

Gentle 29 also has some graphical oddities (look at the alignment of the bricks of the platform the exit is on, compared to the wall next to it).

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

In my opinion the 2-builder solution makes for a more interesting talisman to this level.

To be honest, it never occured to me that the floaters might serve any purpose in the intended solution until I saw the suggestion here. The 2 builders, on the other hand, is definitely worthy of being a Bronze talisman challenge IMO.