Poll

Should we use Amiga or Genesis for the special graphics levels?

Amiga for all four
3 (33.3%)
Genesis for "Beast" and "MENACING"
6 (66.7%)
Genesis for all four
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: November 05, 2017, 08:14:01 PM

Author Topic: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.  (Read 128125 times)

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Offline bsmith

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #315 on: June 14, 2017, 04:15:25 AM »
Your bomber removal list is very similar to mine.  I am satisfied with most of the changes you implemented.  I would also remove the bomber from There's Madness in the Method.  I have a no-floater solution for The Needs of the Many that uses extra bombers and lemmings, so I do not want to see that level changed.

Since you mentioned The Great Lemming Caper, I have multiple distinct solutions for that level and two of them use a blocker.

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #316 on: June 14, 2017, 05:33:35 AM »
Proxima: I'm gonna agree with a generalisation of bsmith's point; we shouldn't remove surplus lemmings just because "there aren't enough permanent skills for them, and permanents are needed to complete the level". The only exception I might agree on is in the case of a splat start where a splatform is impossible to make at all (not just "impossible to make and still pass the level"), and I don't know of any levels off the top of my head that fit this criteria - in fact even then, one could argue that changing which lemmings get floaters could be perceived to be part of a solution - we even do have a level that would (ignoring the alternate solution for obvious reasons) fit this description, "Cascade".

That aside, your list seems good to me.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #317 on: June 14, 2017, 02:02:49 PM »
I'd love to see this alternate solution to "The Needs of the Many". I had another look, and although you can break the initial fall with a bomber, you still have only 11 climbers and no other way to get the lemmings up.

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #318 on: June 14, 2017, 02:06:41 PM »
He said no floaters (not no climbers), and nothing about saving the extra lemmings, just about using them. On the unmodified version of the level, under NeoLemmix, this is not only possible, but fairly easy. Still could be considered talisman worthy, though.

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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #319 on: June 14, 2017, 04:10:05 PM »
If that's what bsmith meant, I don't see why it's an argument for keeping the old lemming count. You use and lose the three climber-bombers and save the other eight climbers; the remaining lemmings contribute nothing and have to be left behind.

Also, isn't the intended solution exactly the same, except you float down rather than bomb down? Hardly "talisman worthy" for such a small change.

Offline Nepster

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #320 on: June 14, 2017, 04:17:39 PM »
Perhaps a more convincing argument is the solution to "The Needs of the Many" that uses just 8 climbers? This solution became impossible with the change to only 11 lemmings.

Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #321 on: June 14, 2017, 04:25:34 PM »
Sure, in that case we should put it back. Your replay isn't working for me (the first bomber goes off too high and the rest splat), but of course I believe you if you say this solution exists. I wasn't trying to be obstructive, just wanted to hash this out so we could make the best decision for the pack.

Offline Nepster

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #322 on: June 14, 2017, 04:34:56 PM »
Sorry, I used an old version and it seems there has been a very slight change to the level. Here a replay, that (hopefully :-\) works with Lemmings_Redux_0.2.1.
One should note however, that there is a much simpler solution along the same lines that works even with 11 lemmings. The attached replay is therefore only interesting for talisman purposes or min-required-skill-challenges.

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #323 on: June 15, 2017, 10:36:21 AM »
Okay, my thoughts on level ordering, and possibly some other random comments:

(Gentle 8-10) Snuggle Up To A Lemming presents the fewest hazards, and should come first. Get A Little Extra Help also presents very few hazards, but more importantly, it feels more different from the other two than they do from each other, so it makes sense to seperate them with it. While there's no denying Downwardly Mobile Lemming is still pretty low on hazards, there are a few more, and they're not quite as easy to avoid - yes, still very easy, but not as easy.

(Gentle 11-12) A Block From Home is actually kinda tricky, especially the bit right at the start. Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming introduces a new mechanic, but is otherwise a very straightforward level. I thus suggest swapping these two.

(Gentle 13) I'd move Where Do You See Lemmings a bit further back, due to the tight save requirement. Somewhere around 20 should work well.

(Gentle 23-24) Lemmings In The Attic, on the other hand, should be a little bit earlier, probably close to (but before) Rainbow Island. Darkness Of The Royal Family should be even earlier than Lemmings In The Attic; while it does only give 5 of most skills, it gives 10 builders, and 5 of each skill is more than enough here.

(Quirky 4) I feel this is way too early for Dolly Dimple. I'd actually consider this to be a fairly hard level, definitely worthy of being in a later rank than Quirky.

(Quirky 6) Postcard From Lemmingland, it's in the right rank but I think it should be later. Keep in mind this level was a major roadblock for many players on their first playthrough.

(Quirky 9) With A Little Help From My Lem, if I'm not mistaken, requires one to be quite precise. It originates from the NES version which operates on a tile-basis even for physics, so precision is not an issue there. While the position is fine, I think some adjustments to address this may be needed.

(Quirky 13) Across The Gap; I remember struggling a lot with this one when I first encountered it. However, looking at it now I'm not sure how I found it hard. Anyone else feel this way about this one? If so, we might want to consider moving it to a later position.

(Quirky 21) The Crankshaft; I think this level could go a bit earlier. Somewhere near Postcard From Lemmingland, but not right before or after it feels right, I think?

(Quirky 22) Compression Method 1; position is fine but the traps should either have no overwrite on, or be moved up one pixel (so the top of the trigger platform is at the top of the blocks). I personally would prefer the no overwrite approach.

(Zany 5) I think the trick from Let's Get Together, unless there's another solution I'm not aware of, is a bit too advanced for this position. It should probably go into the next rank.

(Zany 7) The Run Around belongs in early Quirky at best, I think. Don't get me wrong, it's a really fun level, but it's not hard at all.

(Zany 13) Let's Go Camping; based off the "remove the digger" fix, this is WAY too hard for this position and belongs near the end of the game. GREAT level though!

(Zany 17) Mr Lemming Lives Next Door feels like it should be a bit earlier; maybe near the start of Zany, or even late Quirky.

(Zany 19) Tunnel Vision is too easy for its position; this one definitely belongs in Quirky.

(Zany 29-30) I think that Temple Of Love feels better as a rank ender than The North Poles.

(Manic 7) Emmings! (No L) is a bit easy for this position, I think. Somewhere around mid-Zany might work?

(Manic 9) Rocky Road, I get the impression falling off the rocks to the right of the entrance should land in the trap trigger area? Might need an adjustment for this. Even with this taken into account, it seems too easy for the position; it's basically just a worker lemming level that requires you to be somewhat conservative of skills.


I'll go over the rest of the pack another time, I think.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #324 on: June 15, 2017, 12:33:30 PM »
I agree with most of the above. I think ordering is such a big task, it makes sense to divide it up: first decide on which levels should move from one rank to another; then we can work on the ordering within each rank.

I think the Gentle rank is fine as-is (again, just in terms of which levels). Is everyone else happy to sign off on this?

Quirky: Most levels seem okay for rank 2 (though some early levels should come later); but if we do move any levels down into Quirky, we have to move an equal number up.  I propose moving up "I have a cunning plan", "Compression Method 1" and "Mind the step..."

Zany: I agree with namida, "The run around", "Tunnel vision" and "Mr Lemmy lives next door" should move down. "Let's get together" should move up to Manic; "Let's go camping" to Lunatic.

Manic: Move down "Emmings! (No L)" and "Synchronised Lemming". Move up "Fall and no Life (Part Two)".

Lunatic: Move down "Got anything... lemmingy?" and "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground".

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #325 on: June 15, 2017, 01:31:43 PM »
When dealing with a case where I have, for example, 3 levels that should move down a rank but only 2 that should move up, while I do consider the possibility of moving an extra one up, I also in these cases consider simply moving the remainder level to near the start / end (as applicable) of the rank it's currently in. As such, I don't think it's critical to come up with a list that balances out (yet) if we're just looking at what levels need to be moved to other ranks.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #326 on: June 15, 2017, 02:15:37 PM »
Before we start discussing, can anyone please post a pack where they already ordered the levels according to their own judgement?
At the moment I have a big problem evaluating the average difficulty of the ranks, because easy and hard levels are totally mixed. At the moment I see "Oh No, Squish" at the very end of Lunatic, while I consider "Flow Control" in Zany to be harder than "Oh No, Squish". None were considered as candidates to move yet, so I wonder whether this just got overlooked, or whether my estimated difficulty is way off?
Then there are levels like "Race against cliches", "It's all a matter of timing" and "No hurry, Relax" (in Manic), which I all consider relatively hard even for Manic (especially "No hurry, Relax"). Then follow "Lemming Lament" and "Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility", which (especially by comparison to the previous levels) are far easier. So now I have the problem to decide: Are the first few too hard for Manic and should be moved later, or are the following ones too easy and should be moved to earlier ranks, or should they all just be reordered within the rank? To be honest, I have no clue what is the best action, because I have no feeling for the average difficulty of Manic and whether they fit there.

If we already had a rough order, determining the levels that are out-of-place would be much easier for me.

Regarding Gentle: I mainly agree with the levels placed there. But "Where do you see Lemmings" (Gentle 13), "A Spot of Bother" (Gentle 22) and "Quest for Kieran" (Gentle 27) struck me as more difficult than "Vacation in Gemland" (Quirky 10), "The Crankshaft" (Quirky 21), "Pop your top" (Quirky 23) or especially "A Towering Problem" (Zany 9) (given that bomber timing is not an issue any more). I would prefer to see these three levels in early Quirky (which right now feels far more difficult that most of Zany).

Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #327 on: June 15, 2017, 03:45:43 PM »
I believe the current pack is already ordered according to bsmith's judgement (with only small changes made subsequently). If you feel it would be helpful for me to suggest a complete reordering according to my own judgement, I'm happy to do that, although I'm worried it would make it even harder for us to reach a consensus :P

Offline bsmith

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #328 on: June 15, 2017, 06:24:31 PM »
The current ordering has a lot of room for improvement.  The first and last ranks are the only ones where I am comfortable saying most of the levels in that rank should stay in that rank.  The intermediate ranks are a lot more fluid with difficulty.  I tried to incorporate peoples' early statements about how difficult they found the levels; but I found that over half of the levels which are in the pack were judged to be a medium difficulty.  Most of the easy stuff found its way into Gentle or early Quirky.  Most of the hard stuff got put directly into Lunatic.  I split up the stuff in the middle more on a whim than anything as I think the difficulty is fairly flat across the center third of the pack.

As for the order within each rank, the biggest influence on level ordering was the graphic styles, trying to avoid clusters of the same style; Gentle is an exception as the main influence there was having X-of-everything skillcounts decrease as you progress through the rank. Other than that I put the special graphic levels + Sega 4 as the midpoint of each rank and tried to pick a level I thought would make a good rank finale. (On this note I think Triple Trouble may be better as the Manic finale rather than having it in Lunatic.)

A side note, I am warming up to the rank names Gentle, Quirky, Zany, Manic, Lunatic since I have been mentally appending "Lemmings" behind each rank name.

Offline Nepster

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #329 on: June 15, 2017, 07:56:54 PM »
I dumped images of all levels and then ordered them according to my preferences, ignoring the existing order or the opinions voiced here already (I just kept the positions of the VGASpecs in the middle of the ranks). So please take the following list as my preference, but not as a suggestion how to compromise the various opinions and get a final list out of it.

I listed my own position, the position in the Redux pack version 0.2.2 and the level name. I marked levels where the position changed by at least one full rank (i.e. 30 levels) via bold type.

Gentle (click to show/hide)
Quirky (click to show/hide)
Zany (click to show/hide)
Manic (click to show/hide)
Lunatic (click to show/hide)