Favourite Lemmings Music Version

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Sorry about the thread resurrection; I just wanted to add that the Mac version has very similar music to the Amiga (to the point that I can only tell the difference because I've heard it all a million times), and the PS1 version has good CD-quality music on it, which sounds like it's actually been played with instruments. But it's not as good!

I've just been listening around on Youtube - what I think is that the PS1 version was based on the Windows version, but actually mastered properly, so it sounds way better than the MIDI versions that I'm hearing on Youtube. The Mac version has slightly different tempo to the Amiga version (usually slightly faster) and only sounds different in a small number of the tunes, like "Lemmings 1".

The Amiga version of ONML, however, sounds really flat and boring compared to the Mac version that I grew up with – the music was properly updated for ONML in a way that it wasn't for Lemmings.

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http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/ONMLmacmusic.zip

Pursuant to my earlier remarks, I've just recorded the ONML music off the Mac version (after getting it working on an emulator - dammit Apple with your migrating to intel chips " title="Angry" class="smiley" />). I have done absolutely nothing to these files after recording them, so they cut off just after the track restarts for the 3rd or 4th time.

Hope you enjoy.

Maybe I should put them on youtube... Meh. Anyway, you might notice that track 6 is apparently track 4 in other versions. I dunno why.

[ccexplore]

I've heard both versions ages ago and I don't honestly remember the Mac version being all that enhanced over the Amiga version.  I guess I'll take a listen again later this week and see.

[DragonsLover]

I may be weird, but I somewhat really like the ST music of Lemmings 2, especially the second part of the "Classical" tribe song (the song of "Just dig" from the Dos vga version), the second part of the "Circus" tribe song and the "Sports" tribe song. Sure, it's SNDH chipset, which sounds like 8bit music, but still, I love them and even prefer some of them than Amiga.

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I've heard both versions ages ago and I don't honestly remember the Mac version being all that enhanced over the Amiga version.  I guess I'll take a listen again later this week and see.

They're completely different, man. Maybe you're thinking of the Original Lemmings soundtrack, which only has about 2 tracks which are noticeably different. YMMV on whether it's "enhanced" or "better", I guess.

[ccexplore]

The Amiga version of ONML, however, sounds really flat and boring compared to the Mac version that I grew up with – the music was properly updated for ONML in a way that it wasn't for Lemmings.

I had a quick listen.  I think they enhanced the harmony in some places in the Mac version, and the Mac version tends to have better sustained notes than the Amiga, although the Amiga version seems to emphasize bass and percussion a little more.  Some of it might be due to differences in hardware capabilities--I don't know the specs of Mac sound hardware off top of my head, but I have to imagine that it's probably at least slightly better compared with the Amiga which came out years earlier?

Keep in mind also that for the Amiga version, make sure you have good settings for audio emulation so you at least get optimal sound quality, independent of issues of quality in instruments and arrangements.  For example in WinUAE you should enable the audio filter in the sound settings.

I'll have to do the comparative listening of the original Lemmings later, I thought they did at least updated the instruments in the Mac version of Lemmings, even if they didn't actually do any updating in the notes themselves.  I think because of that, I didn't really perceive the differences as being dramatically more so in ONML vs Lemmings.  Also, with me coming from playing the DOS version, the kinds of difference between DOS music and Amiga/Mac dwarfs the differences of Amiga vs Mac, so I'm probably not as tuned to the differences you'd easily pick up growing up on the Mac music.

Seems like the fair thing now is to post all the Amiga and Mac music for Lemmings and ONML up for people to compare.   Maybe later this week.

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I haven't got an emulator, I've just been listening to it on Youtube or Lemmix.

[ccexplore]

http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/7/15/2915232/ONML-Amiga.zip

note: included versions w/ or w/o the filter, which if I recall correctly can be controlled (on the actual Amiga, though WinUAE also suports it via settings) by the user via a hardware switch.  In the case of ONML music, I think it's much better with filter OFF (so I stand corrected from my earlier post).  The filter smooths out the sounds by attenuating the persistent high-frequency "sizzle" (could partly be an emulation artifact though), but at an adverse cost of muting the mostly brass instruments used in Amiga ONML music (it seems the filter is a low-pass type that emphasizes bass while attenuating higher frequencies), making them sound duller, less bright and "brassy".

In the process of doing the MP3s, I have done an actual, careful side-by-side comparison.  It turns out in terms of the arrangement of notes (not instruments), the Mac version is actually almost identical to the DOS version.  The Amiga version on the other hand consistently has shortened the music, and has indeed tend to simplify the accompaniment part by for example replacing runs of short, fast notes with fewer, longer notes.  It seems there's some undetermined need to have each music in Amiga fit in under a minute.  The shortening of course means there's more repetition which is definitely a bad point.

The Mac version generally has brighter sounds emphasizing higher frequencies, while the Amiga version generally has more emphasis on lower frequencies and percussions, so ultimately both have strengths and weaknesses.  I did notice though that the Amiga version's instrumentation appears to be somewhat more limited compared to the Mac version, with mostly brass instruments featured in almost if not all 6 songs.  Also some of the Mac's instruments may be sampled at higher quality (this might be a hardware limitation, as I know Amiga is limited to 8-bit samples, while the Mac might support 16-bit, I don't know), although that's not to say the Mac doesn't have "bad" instruments (eg. not particularly a fan of the "wa-wa"-ish instrument used in Mac #4's main melody for example, especially at the higher notes).

In the end, I have to agree that the Amiga loses out particularly for the shortening of the songs and the more limited palette of instruments featured.  One exception is #6, where I definitely vastly favor the Amiga version over Mac and DOS versions (for some reason, the Mac and DOS versions buck the trend on that one, and has simplified harmonies and accompaniment compared with the Amiga version).

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I don't like the Mac #6. I have actually judged levels which use it a little bit negatively, and I'm fairly sure I used to try and avoid it when I was younger. #4 is probably my favourite, though. I don't particularly like the fact that on the Amiga a whole opening section of it was missing. And yeah, when I listened to the DOS music, it sounded a lot more familiar despite using very different sounds.

The thing about ONML, though, at the end of the day, is that there are so few tracks that they get quite tedious to listen to after a while. Lemmings 1 has a bit more variety.

On the subject of different versions, I'm thinking of taking screenshots of the Mac levels, if I have the time. Would you be interested?

[ccexplore]

On the subject of different versions, I'm thinking of taking screenshots of the Mac levels, if I have the time. Would you be interested?

I guess you could do one per graphics set.  I'm not aware of any Mac-specific differences like the graffiti changes in SNES Lemmings US version for example, but I don't know much in-depth about the Mac version of course.  I'm thinking one per graphics set should be enough to convey the general updating of the graphics to high resolution.  Of course, it's your time to kill so do whatever makes you happy.

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The only major one is Tricky 21. And those damn stalks in Mayhem 26. I've still not worked out why they can't climb over them – the system it uses for working out when a lemming can climb over something isn't as transparent, because I'm pretty sure they can't stand on one-pixel bits of floor (if that makes sense...)

I've noted specific-level differences in my spreadsheet – basically the Mac version was reduced to a maximum of 80 lemmings, in exactly the same way as the DOS version, but the DOS version made a few extra changes here and there, like Mayhem 3 to 25 lemmings, Mayhem 26 to a goal of 60/80 rather than 72/80 (  ), Taxing 22 and Mayhem 4 to a goal of 40/50 – Mayhem 4 is 100/100 on the Amiga and 80/80 on the Mac.

Also the Hell tileset exit looks completely different because it has big white eyes and no horns. actually, i already have a screenshot of that. (edit: adding a screenshot of the DOS version from Lemedit for comparison)

[ccexplore]

And those damn stalks in Mayhem 26. I've still not worked out why they can't climb over them – the system it uses for working out when a lemming can climb over something isn't as transparent, because I'm pretty sure they can't stand on one-pixel bits of floor (if that makes sense...)

I've actually at some point ages ago started some preliminary disassembling of Mac Lemmings programming, and had worked that specific question out.

In summary, the Mac doubles the pixel resolution horizontally and vertically, but the movement mechanics is still completely in low-res, meaning that for example whereas a lemming advances one pixel horizontally per frame update in low-res, in Mac-res they advances 2 pixels horizontally per update, since 2 pixels in Mac equals 1 pixel in low-res.  Whenever the mechanics needs to check a single pixel in low-res to see if it is terrain or not, in Mac-res it insteads checks the corresponding 2x2 block of pixels, and treat the block as terrain if at least 3 of 4 pixels are terrain, otherwise it is air.  (Note: I might've remembered wrong and it's 2 of 4 instead of 3/4, will verify later tonight when back home.)

Thus it doesn't really surprise me that things like Mayhem 26 can happen.  You are more likely to add than subtract pixels to smooth out curves when upping the resolution, which then means there's a higher chance of pixels that act as air in low-res now becoming terrain instead.  It is indeed more surprising that there aren't more levels affected similarly to Mayhem 26.

[edit: actually on further thought, it makes sense why the system still mostly preserved the original properties of the low-res terrain in most cases.  It's true that you tend to add more pixels in hi-res to smooth curves out, but with the 3/4 rule, you'll have to add at least 3 hi-res pixels in a 2x2 block in order for something that used to be air to become terrain, whereas for curve-smoothing you typically only need to add 1 or 2.]

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I basically knew that but had never confirmed it properly.

Taxing 13 has one or two stalks that you have to bash through near the exit, and I've not played it on the DOS version to confirm or deny whether it has the same problem (from the screenshot, it looks like it doesn't. But remind me, does it take 6 or 7 pixels to block a lemming from jumping up?). But then the DOS version has the miner/one-way arrow bug, so you win some, you lose some. Mayhem 26 may well be the only one that you ever hear about. Plus, most levels have more square bricks – it's only really that tileset that has a lot of places where it'd be affected.

One thing that's annoying is that you sometimes can't tell if a lemming will fall through something or not. Take this screenshot of the no-builders solution for Tricky 11, which I completed a few years ago. It took me quite a while because if the miner is like one pixel further to the right, the lemmings fall through; yet there's still an unbroken line of pixels (presumably, one group of 4 pixels isn't counted as a whole one or something). It becomes unambiguous only if you view it with the old lo-res graphics*

Also, the only other level I can think of that was affected by the graphics is Havoc 16, the screenshot for which I posted somewhere else. Basically, this is because the designers of the level got a rock shape and filled in the gaps to make the wall straight with other rock pieces. On the Mac they're rounded in such a way that the rock shapes don't fill each other's gaps. What I would have done would be to take a straight piece like a metal or crystal block and make it black in order to make a perfectly straight wall.

*It's also worth noting that upon coming up to two blocks that are only just touching at a corner, like this:

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---**
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***--a lemming walking along the left hand block will fall through the gap. I actually only discovered this recently because it's absolutely not clear at all on the Mac... " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Edit: thought of another example of a difference, although a minor one: on the type of spike that I've attached a picture of, lemmings will turn around at that little notch on the left in the DOS version but will jump up onto it on the Mac version (they still can't climb over it entirely, though).

[Mr. K]

Also the Hell tileset exit looks completely different because it has big white eyes and no horns. actually, i already have a screenshot of that. (edit: adding a screenshot of the DOS version from Lemedit for comparison)

Totally getting off-topic here, but this apparently wasn't always the case.  I had a Mac Performa 600 in the early 90s and it came with a software sampler disc that had a Lemmings demo on it.  As I recall, the exit in the one Hell level they included is normal.  I remember downloading the full version a few years back and being weirded out that the exit looked different (to the point that I thought it was a hacked copy or something like that ) -- I should go check it out.

EDIT: Okay, that wasn't it.  I know I've seen the correct exit graphics in some Mac version... I'll keep digging through my old stuff.

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I don't think you have. I remember the demo I had very well, because I learnt the game on it – down to what music it used and everything, which is probably very sad of me. It had Fun 2, Tricky 9, Taxing 4 and Mayhem 18, anyway. I know of another demo that has Fun 7, Tricky 1, Taxing 14 and Mayhem 16. Not to say that another one couldn't possibly exist, but if it did, I feel like I'd have heard about it!