Author Topic: Level Review Topic  (Read 113802 times)

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Offline Adam

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Level Review Topic
« on: May 25, 2009, 06:54:53 PM »
I seem to remember a level review topic on the one of the old forums. It worked in the same way that the Levelpack Topics work, but using the original levels in all games. Even if it didn't exist, I think it'd be nice to see what people liked / loathed in the original version. It'd help level designers create levels suited to other peoples' taste and not just their own.

Obviously, levels work differently on different versions, so there might be a bit of debate over some points! I'm sure we can review significantly different levels, and console exclusive levels at a later date. I'm going to start by reviewing the DOS version!

To help you all review, I have uploaded all of the level images. The images are all located in this folder, I will create a nice gallery for them soon, but not today! (I've been informed that these are AMIGA screenshots.. they look pretty much the same, and were in a folder called DOS on my PC, so that's an error on my part. I'll change them in due course, but you won't need to modify your posts when I do!

Here is the link for the Genesis images.

RULES:

1. Only one level can be reviewed at any one time. We'll work in order from Fun through to Mayhem on the DOS version firstly, then move onto other consoles.

2. You cannot review two in a row, even across difficulties and consoles.


Reviews should be formatted like this:
Quote from: example review
Console Name - Level Number - TITLE

PICTURE

Number of Lemmings
Number of Lemmings Required (% and total)
Release Rate
Time
Skills

Good - The stuff that made the level good.

Bad -  The stuff which makes you want to scream!

I think that's about it, so let's get reviewing!

Offline Adam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 07:06:07 PM »
I'll set the ball rolling... I'm going to start with Fun 08 and work from there, because the first seven levels are training levels!

DOS - Fun 08 - Not as complicated as it looks.


Number of Lemmings: 80
Number of Lemmings Required: 95% (76 lemmings)
Release Rate: 88
Time: 5 minutes

Skills
Climber: 20
Floater: 20
Bomber: 20
Blocker: 20
Builder: 20
Basher: 20
Miner: 20
Digger 20

Good: Easy to solve with just one blocker, but it's possible to save 100% in several different ways!

Bad: More time seems to have been spent designing the architecture than was spent designing the level!

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 07:19:57 PM »
Shoot.  Now I have to start my review over.

DOS - Fun 09 - As Long as you Try Your Best

Skills:  20 of everything

Good:  At least it's harder than the basher tutorial level.
Bad:  Where's my challenge?  All you have to do is bash through the wall by constantly clicking on lemmings so none of them turn around!  Or you could use a blocker if you hate lemmings...

By the way, these screenshots are from the amiga version, not the dos version.

Offline Adam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 07:33:07 PM »
DOS - Fun 10 - Smile if you love Lemmings!


Number of Lemmings: 20
Number of Lemmings Required: 50% (20 lemmings)
Release Rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes

Skills
Climber: 20
Floater: 20
Bomber: 20
Blocker: 20
Builder: 20
Basher: 20
Miner: 20
Digger 20

Good: There are a few ways to get down to the exit, including my favourite way - digging over the exit!
Bad: It's another yellow level where the decoration looks better than the level!

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 07:57:08 PM »
DOS - Fun 11 - Keep Your Hair on Mr. Lemming

Lemmings: 60
To save: Oh crud, forgot to check.  :P.  I know you can lose at least one...
Good:  Several ways to go about finding a solution, which is pretty nice.
Bad:  Several unintended backroutes, you can tell that this level was somewhat poorly planned.  There don't appear to be any random decorative tiles, and those always make a level look better.  WAY too easy.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 08:34:08 AM »
^ 50/60 (83%).

DOS - Fun 12 - Patience

Lemmings - 80
Save - 40 (50%)
RR - 99
Time - 5 minutes
Skills - 20 of each
Good - Nice decorative terrain, some nasty terrain holes to watch out for.
Bad - 99 release rate, 80 lemmings, tall obstacle to bash through... didn't I just play this level?

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 05:23:38 AM »
DOS - "Fun" 13 - We all fall down.


Lemmings - 20
Save - 20 (100%)
Skills - 20 diggers
Good - Nice decorative terrain.
Bad - Need I say more?  We all know what a bad level this is!  Slow-paced, 100%, boring, *snore*

Offline Tim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 12:08:34 PM »
FYI: This is my first time at reviewing a level, I hope I do it well!

DOS - Fun 14 - Origins and Lemmings



Lemmings - 80
Save - 60 (75%)
Release Rate - 20
Time - 4 minutes
Skills - 20 of each

Good - Different ways to reach the exit, making it interesting. Terrain placed well.

Bad -  If you do it the easy way, it takes over 30 seconds to bash through each pillar. Boring!

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2009, 09:05:29 PM »
FYI: This is my first time at reviewing a level, I hope I do it well!

You did fine, don't worry.

DOS - Fun 14 (Dullstar put 12 but its actually 13) - Origins and Lemmings

I fixed it.  Thanks for letting me know.  :thumbsup:

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 04:20:40 AM »
DOS - Fun 15 - Don't let your eyes deceive you


Lemmings: 80
Save: 40 (50%)
Rate: 40
Time: 8 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good: Looks nice, some variety of obstacles. Awesome ceiling route.

Bad: Too long, which means too much time spent waiting for the lemmings to walk.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2009, 04:33:42 AM »
DOS - Fun 16 - Don't do anything too hasty


Statistics:
80 lemmings, save 62% (what number is that?
Time: 8 minutes
Rate:  01
Skills:  20/each

Good:  There are a few different ways to go about coming up with a solution.
Bad:  A building level is very annoying.  Namely, a pain in the neck, just because it's *snore* boring.

To make it easier for those of us trying to find the images in the topic summary, click here.
Just making sure it's easy to find.  ;)

 Fewer building levels would be excellent.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2009, 04:53:45 AM »

80 lemmings, save 62% (what number is that?
That's 50 out of 80. If you can't deal with percentages, you're not going to get very far with my latest quiz question ;)


Quote
To make it easier for those of us trying to find the images in the topic summary, click here.
Just making sure it's easy to find/  ;)

Oh no. I see what you did there.  :XD:

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 10:26:48 PM »
That's 50 out of 80. If you can't deal with percentages, you're not going to get very far with my latest quiz question ;)

I can do percentages, I just didn't feel like it at the time. ;)  On another subject, I haven't even seen your latest quiz question yet (but I have seen the answer).

Quote
Oh no. I see what you did there.  :XD:

What's so "Oh no." about it?

And since you seem to doubt my ability to solve percentages, take THIS!

57 lemmings, save 44

Step 1:  Set problem up.  For how I learned to do it:

IS    %
OF  100

44 is the "IS" number.
57 is the "OF" number.
We do not know what the percentage is, so we'll put "x"

44   x
57  100

Time to cross multiply, 44*100=4400.

Ugh, long division.

4400 divided by 57 is approximately 77.1%, which Lemmings rounds to 77%.

I did that without a calculator, and I checked my final answer by putting the total and the to save values into Lemmix.

I just proved I know how to work percentages!

Offline Adam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2009, 02:51:27 AM »
Dragging this thread back on topic.

DOS - Fun 17 - Easy when you know how.


Statistics:
50 lemmings, save 40% (20 lemmings)
Time: 5 minutes
Rate:  99
Skills:  20 of everything

Good: The release rate makes it tricky to stop the first set of lemmings being sent to their death. This is the first time hidden traps have been used, and they freak you out the first time you play this level... you never look at a level in the same way again... you're always suspicious that something is going to kill your lemmings from this point on.

Bad: I'm finding it very difficult to find something bad to say about this level. I'd have duplicated the entrances in a different order to make it even harder to save the first lot of lemmings.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2009, 03:25:22 AM »
DOS - Fun 18 - Let's Block and Blow

Lemmings: 70[1]
To save: 71%[1] (50 lemmings[citation needed]
Release Rate: 80
Skills:  20 Blockers, 20 bombers

Good:  Most of it can easily be done without the blockers.
Bad:  A lot of it can't be solved so easily without using the blockers, as the timing is easy to figure out but it keeps assigning the task to a lemming that's headed the wrong way.

REFERENCES
Lemmings Encyclopedia[1]

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2009, 09:07:07 AM »
DOS - Fun 19 - Take good care of my Lemmings


Lemmings: 80
Save: 56 (70%)
Release rate: 20
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good: Decorative terrain is excellent. Many ways to hold back the crowd while your hero builds - you can even choose not to hold them back at all!

Bad: Too much walking...



Quote from: Dullstar
I just proved I know how to work percentages!

Bravo, you get an A+ for maths. However, you get an F for level reviewing because the name of that last level is not "Let's Block and Bomb!", but "Let's block and blow".

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2009, 01:30:25 AM »
I should of just checked Lemmings Encyclopedia for that  :-[, but we do have "EDIT POST."
Delicious.

Don't worry, I remember no details about the following level, so I will have to go check the Encyclopedia to find this stuff out.

DOS - Fun 20 - We are Now At LEMCON 1


Lemmings:  50
To save:  30 Lemmings (60%)
Release Rate: 10
Time:  5:00
Skills:  20/each

Good:  Many ways to go about finding a solution.  Nice decorative terrain, great level for challenges.
Bad:  I have no criticism for this particular level.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2009, 11:22:43 AM »
Bumping this thread for the benefit of our new forumers :)

This is where you get to criticise the original Lemmings levels. As I will demonstrate by continuing with the next review...


DOS - Fun 21 - You Live and Lem


Lemmings: 80
Save: 48 (60%)
Release rate: 50
Time: 8 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good: The terrain offers different routes to the exit - along the floor (don't fall in the water!), straight across the middle, or through the ceiling to bypass that pesky trap.
Bad: Like Fun 19 - too much walking. And (not pictured) what's up with that random piece of water at the far left? (Does this show in DOS, or is it just Lemmix?)
EDIT: I had a look in DOS and the errant water is gone.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2009, 11:54:07 AM »
Fun 22 - A Beast of a Level


80 Lemmings
Save 80% (64)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: The first "special terrain" level; adds more variety to the game. A fun level for fewer builder challenges.
Bad: Too much bashing at the start.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2009, 06:31:49 PM »
Hey, I was going to revive this one myself, but you guys beat me to the punch!  Good job!
By the way, Proxima, we are currently reviewing the DOS version!  The DOS version doesn't support 100 lemmings, only 80.

DOS - Fun 23 - I've Lost that Lemming Feeling

Lemmings:  80
To Save:  20 (25%)
Release Rate:  50
Skills:  20/each

Good:  Well put together level.  In appearance, anyway.  Many ways to go about turning around the lemmings.
Bad:  Too much bashing.  Also, I like to use the VGA Graphics/TGA sound trick, except it's only to get around an annoyance in TGALEMMI, so I use EGA graphics because they are similar to TGA's, if not identical.  The bricks are pink this way!

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2009, 10:06:12 PM »
Level 24 - Konbanwa lemming san


30 Lemmings
Save 66% (20)
Release rate 99
5 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: Nice short level, focuses on skills other than building, dealing with release rate 99 is a different kind of challenge
Bad: Um... hate me for saying this if you like, but I think the title being in Japanese is a bit bad, as many people won't know what it means. There's really very little else bad about this level.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2009, 01:44:28 AM »
DOS - Level 25 - Lemmings Lemmings Everywhere

Lemmings:  80
To save:  40 (50%) if lemmings encyclopedia is to be trusted for DOS statistics
RR:  99
Time:  5:00
Skills:  20/each

Good:  Play area is nice mainly in TGA, must keep lemmings towards bottom of level because of web and falling distance.
Okay:  VGA appearance.
Bad:  Needs decorative terrain.  If a lemming turns around, it can be annoying if you are doing a no floaters run, or problematic if more than 20 lemmings turn or all turners are in a tight little group.  This can be solved by making the first lemming build at the netting to utn around and then build from the crystal to create an "anti-splat bridge."  Of course, 100% isn't exactly a requirement, but...

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2009, 06:16:01 AM »
DOS - Fun 26 - Nightmare on Lem street


Lemmings: 2
Save: 2 (100%)
Release rate: 30
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good: Just two lemmings! A refreshing change after so many levels of crowd management.
Bad: Far too easy due to the ridiculous amount of skills. And why include 54 skills that absolutely can't be used?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »
Fun 27 - Let's be careful out there


50 Lemmings
Save 50% (25)
Release rate 1
5 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: A great level for astonishing your friends by showing them the short route! Depends on a mixture of skills rather than just building, fairly easy to save 100% but not trivial.
Bad: The "long route" involves a bit too much walking. Also (this is really nitpicky but again there's not much bad to say) the long vertical pole on the extreme left is rather ugly.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 01:44:11 AM »
DOS - Fun 28 - If only they could fly...

Lemmings:  80
To save:  48 (60%)
RR:  80
Time:  5:00
Skills:  30/each

Good:  Decorative terrain, play area terrain.
Okay:  Different methods of thwarting right hand side of playfield, where lemmings die.
Bad:  Too much walking, too much building, too many skills.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2009, 01:14:47 AM »
DOS-fun 29- Worra Lorra Lemmings
Fun29 - Worra Lorra Lemmings
RR:80
Lemmings:80
Save: 48 (60%)
Skills:30/each

Good:Nice creativity of a piramid.
Okay:Theres another way to beat it
Bad:The finishing part

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2009, 11:12:24 AM »
DOS - Fun 30 - Lock up your lemmings


Lemmings:  60
To save:  40 Lemmings (66%)
Time:  5:00
Release rate: 10
Skills:  20 each

Good:  Takes a break from building. Creative design.
Bad: A bit too short for a builderless level. Pits look a bit dull.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 11:22:00 AM »
Good work reviewing the Fun levels. Now let's do Tricky.

DOS - Tricky 1 - This should be a doddle!


Lemmings:  80
To save:  40 Lemmings (50%)
Time:  4:00
Release rate: 50
Skills:  10 each

Good:  Good starter level. A bit more challenging with 10 skills...
Bad: ...but that doesn't reflect on the level's solution. Long and boring.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2009, 01:41:45 PM »
(Sorry :( don't know how to upload picture tell me how plz)

Right-click on any of the pictures and select "Copy Image Location".

In your post, type [ img ] without the spaces, hit Paste, and a URL similar to http://www.neolemmix.com/levelimg/orig/0130.png should come up. Change the "fun30" part to whatever level it is you're reviewing, type [ /img ] without the spaces and you're done.

Remember to use only the FIRST THREE letters of the category and to put a zero before single-digit level numbers. Minimac, you need to edit your post as you put "tricky1" rather than "tri01".

Tricky 2 - We all fall down


40 Lemmings
Save 100% (40)
Release rate 1
40 diggers

Good: Interesting conception of making the same level harder each time
Bad: Dull to implement the solution. This really shouldn't be so early in the Tricky category as it makes the set less fun to play.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2009, 09:05:02 PM »
[I've done it at last, well done Proxima! :thumbsup: I was trying to work it out myself, but I came pretty close anyway. Thanks for helping anyway! Let's carry on]

DOS - Tricky 3 - A ladder would be handy


Lemmings:  80
To save:  40 Lemmings (50%)
Time:  6:00
Release rate: 50
Skills:  40 builders, 20 for the other type of skills.

Good: The title says it. You can't solve it without a builder.
Bad: No steel. A little bit too basic looking to be honest.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2009, 09:13:08 PM »
DOS - Tricky 4 - Here's one I prepared earlier


Lemmings:  80
To save:  20 Lemmings (25%)
Time:  8:00
Release rate: 55
Skills:  40 of each skill.

Good: The hefty masses of steel forces the player not to cheat. Lots of time...
Bad: ...although it can be done in three minutes. Too many skills means too many solutions.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2009, 09:22:32 PM »
Hey, what happened to this rule?

2. You cannot review two in a row, even across difficulties and consoles.

Offline Yawg

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2009, 09:37:06 PM »
Good: The hefty masses of steel forces the player not to cheat. Lots of time...
Bad: ...although it can be done in three minutes. Too many skills means too many solutions.

Plus, thats just not true ;) That level is one of the better demonstrations of how steel glitches can ruin a puzzle
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline GigaLem

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2009, 09:54:06 PM »
I'll do The next..
DOS-Tricky 5-Careless clicking costs lives
Code: [Select]
[img]Tricky 5-Careless clicking cost lives[img]RR  C   F   B   B   B   B   M  D   Lems  save
20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20   100     20
 :thumbsup:GOOD:its easy becuse of 20 of everything
 :)Okay:" Careless clicking costs lives" thats right
 :(bad: The basher part

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2009, 10:32:21 PM »
The images you are looking for are already uploaded.  Post them with:
Code: [Select]

What if you want to have a link to the location where it is?

Code: [Select]

Hope this helps.



DOS - Tricky 6 - Lemmingology

Lemmings:  5
To save:  4 (80%)
Release Rate:  50
Time:  5 minutes
Skills:  20/each

Good:  Looks fine.  Nice level.
Okay:  Hard to judge one part where you can't tell if a floater is needed or not.
Bad:  Too many skills.  Why are there 68 skills that can't be used at all?

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2009, 12:58:08 PM »
DOS - Tricky 7 - Been there, seen it, done it.

Lemmings:  75
To save:  55 (73%)
Release Rate:  20
Time:  5 minutes
Skills:  20/each

Good:  Slightly longer than the last one. A better challenge.
Bad:  Still too many skills.  May disrupt the learning curve.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 05:41:56 PM »
Tricky 8 - Lemming sanctuary in sight


80 Lemmings
Save 60% (48)
Release rate 40
8 minutes

20 blockers, 50 builders

Good: Nice title. Interesting to have a level that focuses on one skill rather than giving you 20 of everything.
Bad: Solution is repetitive. Level could have been smaller without losing much.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 09:18:17 PM »
Tricky 9 - They just keep on coming


Number of Lemmings: 75
93% to be saved
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 50

20 of each skill

Good: Adding steel avoids a horrendous backroute. Two different paths make this level unique along with "One way or another".
Bad: The one-way arrows aren't much use.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Fernito

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 09:32:36 PM »
Good review, but there's a mistake with the level name :P
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2009, 04:47:08 AM »
Yeah, you forgot the level name.  You also forgot to remove the "QUOTE" BBC tag.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2009, 08:47:16 AM »
DOS - Tricky 10 - There's a lot of them about


Lemmings: 80
Save: 74 (92%)
Release rate: 60
Time: 8 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good: Simple symmetrical design, and a fun multitasking puzzle - although you don't really have to multitask if you don't want to since there's plenty of time.
Bad: (In DOS version) Looks bare without the lava and fire pits along the bottom. Plus the name is very bland, especially considering the previous level title says pretty much the same thing :D

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2009, 11:02:39 AM »
DOS - Tricky 11 - Lemmings in the attic


Lemmings: 50
Save: 42
Release rate: 20
Time: 8 minutes
Skills: 50 builders, 20 of the rest

Good: Surprisingly good title, Plenty of ways to do this. Lots of builders...
Bad: ...although it can be done in less than 10 of those. 8 minutes for such a short level is probably too much.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2009, 12:52:41 PM »
Less than ten? Tricky 11 can be done with no builders at all!

Tricky 12 - Bitter Lemming


50 Lemmings
Save 80% (40)
Release rate 1
8 minutes

50 climbers, floaters, builders; 20 of all others

Good: Interesting terrain makes for a variety of solutions; uses other skills as well as builders. Turning the release rate up to 99 and making everyone a floater is a fun way to solve it :)
Bad: The "splat start" is a bit discouraging for first-time players.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2009, 01:11:14 PM »

DOS - Tricky 13 - Lemming drops


Lemmings: 80
Save: 56
Release rate: 1
Time: 8 minutes
Skills: 50 builders, 20 of the rest

Good: Lots of builders, forces you to use other skills.
Bad: Too much steel makes the level difficult.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2009, 10:00:57 PM »
DOS - Tricky 14 - MENACING !!


Lemmings: 80
Save: 70 (87%)
Release rate: 50
Time: 6 minutes
Skills: 10 climbers, floaters, blockers, 15 everything else

Good: Special graphics are a nice change from the standard terrain. Plus the music is just cool.
Bad: Too much walking, and the blood and gore may be off-putting for some.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2009, 12:09:08 AM »
Heh -- when I first played Lemmings as a nine-year-old, it took me ages to get past that level, because I just could not stand the music.

Tricky 15 - Ozone friendly lemmings


10 Lemmings
Save 60% (6)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

5 bombers

Good: Nice introduction to the concept of "repeat levels", and to the concept of "puzzle levels" -- that is, you don't get 20 of everything -- although no doubt some pedants will object to my calling this a puzzle because it's such an easy one.
Bad: The title should be hyphenated to be grammatically correct... can't think of anything else.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2009, 09:32:19 AM »
Tricky 16 - Luvly Jubly


50 Lemmings
Save: 40
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 76

Skills: 10 bombers, 1 basher, 1 miner

Good: A slightly harder bombers challenge, One basher against two obstacles makes the level an entirely different challenge without the builders. Unique release rate...
Bad: ...which is still quite awkward. Quite unpopular challenging the level again with time consuming bombers.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2009, 11:16:09 AM »
DOS - Tricky 17 - Diet Lemmingaid


Lemmings: 50
Save: 48 (96%)
Release rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 2 bombers

Good: Clever title, and a not-too-harsh introduction to precision bombing.
Bad: There's really nothing to this level... and certainly not enough to warrant a 5 minute timer.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2009, 01:07:49 PM »
DOS - Tricky 18 - It's lemmingentry Watson


Lemmings: 10
Save: 9 (90%)
Release rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 1 floater, 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 digger
 
Bad: Somewhat random title, still too short, even the low release rate makes it too easy, 5 skills makes the level cheap...
Good: ...unlike the last level. Does require a fair bit of thought.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2009, 04:11:56 AM »
DOS - Tricky 19 - Postcard from Lemmingland


Lemmings:
  50
To save:  50 (100%)
Release rate:  50
Time:  5 minutes
Skills:  10 Climbers, 10 floaters, no blockers or bombers, 1 of everything else.

Good:  Clever solution.
Okay:  Too easy to mine just a little early, forcing you to start over.  This could have been averted by placing a hidden steel area  at the bottom of the pit without any effect on the solution.
Bad:  Too much bashing.  The fact that you need 100% forces you to use a floater, which wouldn't be a problem except that it gets the climber/floater (athlete) lemming really far behind.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2009, 05:56:49 AM »
DOS - Tricky 20 - One way digging to freedom


Lemmings: 80
Save: 76 (95%)
Release rate: 60
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 3 climbers, 3 floaters, 6 bombers, 4 bashers, 2 everything else

Good: Finally, something new after 5 repeat levels in a row. Still easy, but not too easy thanks to the low skill count.
Bad: Large empty space between the wall and the exit. And that means more needless walking time...

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2009, 06:38:37 AM »
DOS - Tricky 21 - All the 6's......


Lemmings: 66
Save: 44 (66%)
Release rate: 66
Time: 6 minutes
Climbers: 66
Floaters: 66
Bombers: 66
Blockers: 66
Builders: 66
Bashers: 66
Miners: 66
Diggers: 66

Good: Good idea using the fire style and the 666.
Bad: Too easy to solve with all 66 lemmings rescued. Probably unnecessary.

Other information: The original level editors thought of "All the 5's" so that they could get 55 each skill, rate 55, 55 lemmings but sadly not 55%, so it was changed to 6.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2009, 11:44:26 AM »
The fact that you need 100% forces you to use a floater
Not the way I solved it, it doesn't :)

Which brings me onto something I might have put for both "good" and "bad" -- it's a really nice puzzle, but a bit too tough for its place in the sequence (only fifth out of the actual puzzle levels).

Offline GigaLem

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2009, 09:58:20 PM »
i would say the okay for all the 6's..
its fun to play

and also 6!....6,6! the number the beast!
it's the turth

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2009, 10:03:20 PM »
Which brings me onto something I might have put for both "good" and "bad" -- it's a really nice puzzle, but a bit too tough for its place in the sequence (only fifth out of the actual puzzle levels).
That's a good point. If I recall, this was the first level to stump me when I first played this game :(


DOS - Tricky 22 - Turn around young lemmings!


Lemmings: 80
Save: 72 (90%)
Release rate: 88
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 1 floater, 15 bombers, 20 builders, 1 basher

Good: The classic turnaround level. Plenty of ways to go about it, but you can't just block like you did last time ;)
Bad: Probably too many lemmings for such a small level, and you get more bombers than you're allowed to use. (Unless you "use" them on exiting lemmings.)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2009, 10:39:36 PM »
Tricky 23 - From the boundary line


80 Lemmings
Save 60% (48)
Release rate 99
5 minutes

10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: The classic "standard solution loses lots but with cleverness you can save nearly all" level. Teaches another interesting trick that comes in handy in lots of challenge solutions. (Though I seem to remember, when I first solved it I dug down too far, so my basher saved everyone else except himself....)
Bad: Can be solved with one of the Tricky 19 solutions.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2009, 07:17:31 AM »
DOS - Tricky 24 - Tightrope City


80 Lemmings
Save 93% (75)
Release rate: 85
Time: 2 minutes

5 climbers, 5 floaters, 5 bombers, 5 blockers, 3 builders, 5 bashers, 5 miners, 5 diggers.

Good: This is a fair challenge.
Bad: Way too generic with only two pieces used. No scenery. Can be frustrating to execute in the short time limit. Why are the ropes floating when they shouldn't be? Too much walking leaves most players impatient.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »
DOS - Tricky 25 - Cascade


Lemmings: 80
Save: 10 (12%)
RR: 99
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 1 climber, 10 floaters, 5 bombers, 10 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 5 diggers

Good: It's just so awesome that you can splat so many lemmings and still pass the level. Plus there's still a way to save 100%. A true classic.
Bad: Why are there one way arrows? Did they really have to put these in to stop us bashing into the water?

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2009, 12:19:42 PM »
DOS - Tricky 26 - I have a cunning plan


Lemmings: 80
Save: 100%
RR: 99
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 2 climber, 5 bombers, 10 blockers, 20 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers

Good: Can be a good challenge, another quick level.
Bad: Solution can be tough to execute, and there's a point about not using blockers and bombers in a 100% level. Even 1 minute doesn't change the solution.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2009, 01:07:05 PM »
Ah, but the blockers allow you to execute a much easier solution ;)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2009, 06:54:57 PM »
Really? This is a hundred percenter, you don't need blockers do you? (I know some blockers are needed in some 100% levels but not this one).
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2009, 07:31:52 PM »
You don't need blockers but the level is so much easier with them:

Quote from: Spoiler
Block, bash, wait for all lemmings to face right, release the blocker.

Tricky 27 - Island of the Wicker people


80 lemmings
Save 90% (72)
Release rate 60
5 minutes

5 of all skills except floaters

Good: No floaters and only five builders mean you have to think a little.
Bad: Too easy for its place in the series.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2009, 10:08:50 PM »
Bad: Too easy for its place in the series.
I disagree, I think it's well placed in this series of levels. My complaint here would be the huge mass of one way arrows - they look quite awful.


DOS - Tricky 28 - Lost Something?


Lemmings: 80
Save: 72 (90%)
RR: 70
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 10 of each

Good: A completely different type of challenge to every level before it. Good for a bit of variety.
Bad: Once you've found the exit, you've found it. It's not going to be somewhere else when you play the level again, is it? Plus this level is largely responsible for spawning a number of terrible "exit hunting" custom levels.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2009, 11:40:51 PM »
Tricky 29 - Rainbow Island


80 lemmings
Save 98% (79)
Release rate 70
4 minutes

10 of each skill

Good: Saving all but one is a well-thought-out requirement, not too taxing but requires care.
Bad: This one is definitely too easy for its position. Also, a huge disappointment when I upgraded to a colour computer that the arches weren't actually rainbow-coloured.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2009, 12:30:30 AM »
Tricky 30 - The Crankshaft


80 lemmings
Save 90% (72)
Release Rate 20
4 minutes

10 of each skill except Bashers.

Good: A good way of ending the Tricky rating, removing the bashers changes the entire complexity of the level. Requiring lemming co-ordination due to the time limit, this level is satisfying to beat, and you are given a taste of things to come in Taxing.
Bad: This level could frustrate first-time players, due to too many concepts introduced at once (team effort required when it's not immediately apparent, fighting the time limit, etc.).
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2009, 12:59:32 AM »
DOS - Taxing 1 - If at first you don't succeed..


Lemmings: 80
Save: 79 (98%)
RR: 40
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 8 builders, 2 everything else

Good: Good visual design, and a neat puzzle since you can't just bash through all the pillars...
Bad: ... but you can bash under them. Which really breaks this level as a challenge.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2009, 06:11:02 AM »
DOS - Taxing 2 - Watch out, there's traps about


Lemmings: 80
Save: 64 (80%)
RR: 70
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 10 climbers, 5 floaters, 5 blockers, 10 blockers, 10 builders, 5 bashers, 5 miners, 5 diggers.

Good: The names says it all. Traps everywhere. Not too difficult for a double entrancer.
Bad: The level's missing the rock trap.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2009, 11:05:13 AM »
I wonder why you are not allowed to review two levels at once though. Should there be some feedback or something?
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »
It's so that everyone gets a fair chance to review their favourite levels without someone jumping in and claiming several in a row. This topic isn't just for you, you know. Besides, I was busy yesterday.

Taxing 3 - Heaven can wait (we hope!!!)


80 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
2 minutes

30 of each skill except blockers

Good: A very dramatic level when you first encounter it, with the title, the 100% requirement and the tight time limit. Requires the player to come up with new ways of holding the crowd.
Bad: I honestly can't think of anything bad to say about this level.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2009, 01:11:13 PM »
DOS - Taxing 4 - Lend a helping hand


40 lemmings
Save: 30 (75%)
Release rate 50
7 minutes

5 bombers, 4 blockers, 20 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers.

Good: Another solid 2 entrancer. Good use of the spike traps.
Bad: 7 minutes is too much for a short looking level.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2009, 05:20:01 AM »
minimac94, you keep forgetting to change the picture.  And stop quoting other people's reviews and editing them unless you are going to remove the extra bits and pieces.

I'll review a level tomorrow.  Someone else can jump in now.  Don't have the time to do a full blown review.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2009, 05:53:46 AM »
Sure, I'll do one.

DOS - Taxing 5 - The Prison!


Lemmings: 60
Save: 45 (75%)
RR: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 5 bombers, 4 blockers, 20 builders, 10 bashers, 3 diggers

Good: Neither path is clearly easier than the other, so this map presents a tough choice - even for challenge solutions.
Bad: Standard block-and-release, hero lemming fare. Yawn.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2009, 06:53:23 AM »
I fixed it again. I must remember to press preview sometimes.

DOS - Taxing 6 - Compression Method 1


Lemmings: 50
Save: 30 (60%)
Release Rate: 99
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 3 bombers, 3 blockers, 5 bashers, 1 digger.

Good: Takes another break from the building levels. Clever solution.
Bad: I wonder where the sequel is.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2009, 11:38:36 AM »
I well remember how excited I was when I worked out the solution to that level! :D

Taxing 7 - Every lemming for himself!!!


80 lemmings
Save 97% (78)
Release rate 55
3 minutes

1 climber, 5 bombers, 1 blocker, 6 builders, 1 basher

Good: A neat skill-efficiency puzzle at the start, and then (or at least it seemed this way at the time) ever such precision building to get over the gaps. A "Taxing" challenge indeed.
Bad: Why allow you to lose two lemmings? Did they have some other solution in mind, and if so, what?

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2009, 12:45:55 PM »
Why allow you to lose two lemmings? Did they have some other solution in mind, and if so, what?

I guess if you set the blocker too late, you could lose your climber as he climbs over the big hill and falls on the left.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2009, 02:51:05 PM »
DOS - Taxing 8 - The Art Gallery


Lemmings: 80
Save: 80 (100%)
Release Rate: 20
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 10 bombers, 10 builders, 10 bashers.

Good: Forces you to use another creative way of trapping the lemmings. Although the blockers are vacant...
Bad: ...Bombers aren't supposed to be added in a 100% level.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2009, 04:28:55 PM »
Bad: ...Bombers aren't supposed to be added in a 100% level.

Whyever not? They're not doing you any harm just by being there.

Taxing 9 - Perseverance


20 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 50
4 minutes

2 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 2 diggers

Good: Nice title, nice pattern with the skill numbers (see? the bomber does have a purpose!) and quite an elegant little puzzle the first time you encounter it.
Bad: The simplicity and obviousness of the three-skill solution takes a lot of the charm out of the level once you find it.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2009, 04:39:49 PM »
DOS - Taxing 10 - Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy


Lemmings: 5
Save: 5 (100%)
Release Rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 5 bombers, 5 blockers, 15 builders, 5 bashers, 5 miners, 5 diggers

Good: A nice break from huge masses of lemmings. Solution is well intended and not too easy thanks to the missing climbers and floaters.
Bad: I still think 5 minutes is too much time for this level. Bombers should be cut out.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2009, 08:24:26 PM »
Heh, Taxing 10 is another level where I found a backroute instead of the real solution. In the "box" just before the big drop, build just before the wall, then bash so that one pixel of floor remains below the basher.

Taxing 11 - The ascending pillar scenario


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 20
4 minutes

2 climbers, 1 floater, 20 builders, 5 bashers, 5 miners, 5 diggers

Good: A really taxing level that took me years to pass. You have to be really efficient to control the crowd in that tiny space. The skill allocation is good too -- there are different things you can try with the climbers and floater.
Bad: Bland title.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2009, 08:28:30 PM »
Heh, Taxing 10 is another level where I found a backroute instead of the real solution. In the "box" just before the big drop, build just before the wall, then bash so that one pixel of floor remains below the basher.

Hang on, I thought that was the intended solution?
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2009, 08:47:03 PM »
DOS - Taxing 12 - Livin' on the edge


Lemmings: 10
Save: 8 (80%)
Release Rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 2 blockers, 10 of the rest

Good: The title says it all, especially the blockers.
Bad: Too easy at this stage of the game.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2009, 09:24:00 PM »
Heh, Taxing 10 is another level where I found a backroute instead of the real solution. In the "box" just before the big drop, build just before the wall, then bash so that one pixel of floor remains below the basher.

Hang on, I thought that was the intended solution?

Then why so many builders? I'm sure the intended solution is to dig and build up again from below.

I won't review Taxing 13 as I've done quite a few recently, and I'm sure several people have this on their favourites list....

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2009, 10:48:45 AM »
I won't review Taxing 13 as I've done quite a few recently, and I'm sure several people have this on their favourites list....
Guess not. :P It might be on someone's "least favourite" list though... like mine.  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

DOS - Taxing 13 - Upsidedown World


Lemmings: 80
Save: 79 (98%)
RR: 40
Time: 6 minutes
Skills: 1-0-10-1-2-3-4-2

Good: Unique graphical approach with all the grass and stuff on the bottom.

Bad: The one-way wall bug wrecks a seemingly legitimate solution, which spoils this level IMO. Also it seems pointless to start you the wrong way, and then give you a blocker and allow you to lose one lemming.
And it's another long, drawn-out hero level.
And the steel area over the bear trap which is inconsistent with other levels and really gets in the way.
And the masses of roots which make things awkward.
And the excess bombers that you can't use.

So, yeah. Not good.

[/rant]

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2009, 01:52:58 PM »
Well, we don't have many right-to-left levels in the whole game, but it is harder than the average level I have to say. I like my "Upsidedown Islands" level better, even though the terrain pieces look quite messy.

DOS - Taxing 14 - Hunt the Nessy


Lemmings: 80
Save: 76 (95%)
Release Rate: 30
Time Limit: 8 minutes
Skills: 10 bombers, 10 blockers, 30 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger.

Good: A slightly different approach on how to tackle the Nessy.
Bad: A poor attempt for a designer who wants to take the entire level. Not a lot of scenery. Where's all the water gone? Why do identical looking rocks get in the way? It's so repetitive, this level should never have been made on this console. I remember Ice Eagle saying this on the older forums "No challenge, just a waste of time!". Too many blockers and bombers. Exit should be placed behind and not in-front of the grass.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2009, 01:39:58 PM »
I've contributed to the "Top 5, bottom 5" topic now, and Upsidedown World didn't make my top 5, but it certainly would have made my top 10.

Taxing 15 - What an AWESOME level


80 lemmings
Save 80% (64)
Release rate 50
6 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: Best music in the game. Another "special" level, this one with quite nice-looking graphics.
Bad: Tedious to get through all the obstacles, and especially annoying that the stars can get in your way.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2009, 09:08:44 PM »
Taxing 16 - Mary Poppins' land


80 lemmings
Save 96% (77)
Release rate 50
3 minutes

4 floaters, 3 bombers, 3 blockers, 20 builders

Good: Very apt title.  Skills set, % required, and time limit chosen well for the level's intended solution, together encouraging you to multitask the two time-consuming bits, a variation from the single worker lemming.  The level has also proven very interesting for challenges (100%; 1 minute; no floaters).

Bad:
  • The weirdly slanted pillar holding up the starting platform looks really sloppy (why the slight slant at all?), parts of it even sticks out from the steel plates.
  • For the intended solution, there are a lot of uneven terrain in the level, and if you don't take care to set your blockers on flat ground, you run the risk of walkers being able to pass through your blockers.  Granted, the uneven terrain makes it possible to just turn around by building, but then why not just omit the 2 blockers altogether from the skill set?
  • Obviously much building if you aren't a fan of builder-heavy levels, but hey, at least here the building isn't gratuitous, and they have the decency to shorten the amount of building for the first drop by allowing you to start midway on the steep slope.
  • The lack of variety in the skills set makes the solution rather easy to figure out.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2009, 10:12:11 PM »
DOS - Taxing 17: X marks the spot


80 lemmings
Save 90% (72)
Release rate 50
7 minutes

Skills: 5 bombers, 5 bashers, 5 climbers, 6 miners, 20 builders

Good: A good title for a level. X shows where the hidden exit might be...
Bad:Thanks to the exits on the left, the level is backrouted badly.

Check out my revised version. It's the last level of one of my packs. Hope you find it :)
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2009, 10:29:54 PM »
Bad:Thanks to the exits on the left, the level is backrouted badly.
You're overthinking it. It's pretty obvious they expected more people to aim for the visible exits (simply since anyone can see that they're there).

Taxing 18 - Tribute to M. C. Escher


75 lemmings
Save 86% (65)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

1 floater, 15 bombers, 15 builders, 1 basher

Good: Really fun level to play, especially if you're doing it without the basher (my original solution). Also, nice title, referring to the appearance after you've built a zigzag of stairs up on the left.
Bad: Requires a bit more mental arithmetic than a Lemmings level should to know how many bombers it's safe to use.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2009, 11:29:06 PM »
DOS - Taxing 19 - Bomboozal


Lemmings: 70
Save: 64 (91%)
RR: 80
Time: 2 minutes
Skills: 15 bombers

Good: Quick solution, and enough margin for error to make the bomber timing bearable. And if you don't want to deal with the back-and-forth stuff (and associated splat risk from putting bomber holes below each other), you can just bomb down the right-hand side.

Bad: Nothing but bomber timing - we've had quite enough of that already. And like many other levels, there's more bombers than you can afford to use. And by the time you've used 15 bombers, chances are you've died in the fire pits or fallen off the screen anyway.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2009, 03:40:24 AM »
DOS - Taxing 20 - Walk the web rope


Lemmings: 80
Save: 70 (87%)
RR: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 20 of each

Good:  Features the web, a unique and unusual terrain to work a path through (yes, the web exists in levels like Mayhem 4 also, but there you only need to get through a small part of it).

Bad:
  • The pointlessly long walkway between the webs--even longer than Tightrope City's, but absolutely pointless here since you don't need any crowd control or worry about the time limit.
  • 20 of everything is far too generous and uninspired, more like something you'd expect from early/mid Tricky and not something from two thirds into Taxing.  They could've at least drastically lower the number of bashers to make you try out the other terrain removal skills.
  • Also, once you get past the left boundary of the first web, the rest is rather straightforward, and the second web offers nothing different from the first.  Would've been more interesting if, say, they put the exit near the top right side of the second web forcing you to go up instead of just across/down like the first web
.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2009, 06:43:23 AM »
DOS - Taxing 21 - Feel the heat


Lemmings: 20
Save: 20 (100%)
Release Rate: 70
Time: 2 minutes
Skills: 4 builders, 3 of the rest.

Good: Good name.

Bad: Quite short, and the easy solution can be frustrating.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2009, 01:15:44 PM »
Yay, I get to review one of my favourite levels!

Taxing 22 - Come on over to my place


50 lemmings
Save 80% or 100% depending on version
Release rate 1
3 minutes

2 floaters, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 2 diggers

Good: Several different solutions, and the backroute is certainly one of the most elegant solutions in the game. (I guess part of the reason I like the level so much is that for a long time I thought that was the solution).
Bad: Requires 100% on some versions but not others, and I'm torn as to which makes it a better level. Requiring 100% eliminates the main solution so that more people will find the backroute; on the other hand, it also means more people will find one of the releasing-blocker solutions, which spoils Mayhem 20.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2009, 01:36:47 PM »
DOS - Taxing 23 - King of the castle


Lemmings: 80
Save: 76 (95%)
Release Rate: 40
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 20 builders.

Good: Has a new challenge with the builders (I think).
Bad: Blockers missing, making the level more boring. Steel isn't necessary in this level. Too difficult for Taxing.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2009, 01:53:18 PM »
Proxima, Adam the mod said we would do DOS, so that means 80% is the answer.

I wasn't asking a question. For this level in particular, it would be hard to discuss without mentioning other versions, since it makes such a large difference to the solution and to how the level comes across.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2009, 07:54:35 PM »
Requiring 100% eliminates the main solution so that more people will find the backroute

If you're talking about the upper route, 100% is definitely possible with that route.  I can only imagine there's something you're overlooking.

Bad: Blockers missing, making the level more boring.

I'd think most people would find that more interesting, not more boring.  After all, if the blockers were there, how would this level be different from Tricky 8?

Just out of curiosity, have you solved this level?  I don't know what rules we posited here, but I think it'd be reasonable to demand that you need to be able to solve a level yourself first before eligible to review the level.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2009, 08:00:05 PM »
Requiring 100% eliminates the main solution so that more people will find the backroute

If you're talking about the upper route, 100% is definitely possible with that route.  I can only imagine there's something you're overlooking.

I wasn't talking about what's possible but about what solutions people are likely to find (which I could easily be wrong about, as it's both speculative and subjective). I'm sure you can get 100% by the upper route without releasing a blocker, but I don't think it's easy to find a way to do that.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2009, 08:18:54 PM »
DOS - Taxing 24 - Take a running jump.....


Lemmings: 80
Save: 79 (98%)
Release Rate: 50
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 30 builders and that's it.

Good: Despite being an only-builder level, it's not boring at all because the use of builds isn't just for "creating bridges". Several ways to finish it makes it an interesting level, very suitable for challenges.
Bad: The rightmost part of it is a bit annoying once lemmings go in. You can't make them go back, which is a unpleasant surprise the first time you play it. Time could be a problem, though I guess it's part of the challenge. Oh, and cryptic messages written on the level are scary haha (j/k).
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2009, 08:32:55 PM »
In that level you did, the builder has three purposes: Slowing down other lemmings, creating safety bridges and also bridging gaps.

DOS - Taxing 25 - Follow the leader.


Lemmings: 80
Save: 72 (90%)
Release Rate: 20
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 10 bombers, 7 builders, 5 bashers.

Good: Good title.
Bad: A bit too much walking; Boring bomber timing again. Another shallow "Worker lemming" level.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2009, 09:55:30 PM »
I'm sure you can get 100% by the upper route without releasing a blocker, but I don't think it's easy to find a way to do that.

But you can release the blocker, that's my point!  You have 1 basher, 1 miner, 2 diggers, and a surplus of builders.  Oh, and conveniently, 2 floaters.  How many skills are you spending on setting up the main path anyway? :o ???

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2009, 10:11:51 PM »
I didn't want to start an argument, but since you don't seem to have understood what I was saying, I'll try spelling it out once more. Requiring 100% prevents the "upper route without releasing blocker" solution. Since you're not expected to know about releasing blockers yet, more people will find the backroute if they play a version where 100% is required, which is good. But also, if 100% is required, more people will discover about releasing blockers on this level, which spoils Mayhem 20 and is therefore bad.

Moving on...

Taxing 26 - Triple Trouble


80 lemmings
Save 98% (79)
Release rate 80
5 minutes

10 of each skill

Good: Unique and difficult solution where you have to make lemmings from different entrances co-operate with each other.
Bad: Exasperating when you get a wrong-facing lemming for the final bridge to release the crowd once too often.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2009, 10:33:23 PM »
I didn't want to start an argument, but since you don't seem to have understood what I was saying, I'll try spelling it out once more.

Thanks, that clears up what you were saying, not trying to start an argument.  You did say "eliminates" the upper route so it sounded like you were saying it's impossible, rather than that it makes the upper route solution a lot more difficult to find for new players.

Taxing 27 - Call in the bomb squad


80 lemmings
Save 60% (48)
Release rate 10
5 minutes

10 bombers, 10 blockers, 10 builders

Good:  Teaches you on using bombers to blaze a path going up, rather than just across or down an obstacle as in previous easier bomber levels.  Also a good effort on all the elaborate decorative terrain left and right of the level's main area.
Bad:  Could be a bit annoying to execute, perhaps more bombers and builders should've been given, since the level lets you lose up to 32 lemmings anyway.  It would have also been nicer if the raised portion of the platform you start building from is moved a little more to the left, so that you don't run the risk of your builder building past the right blocker (but I guess you can argue it makes the level harder to better justify its position as a late Taxing).

Also, making the player aware of using bombers this way may cause Mayhem 2 to become easier to figure out.

Finally, it would be nice if the DOS version keeps some more of the water objects that the Amiga version have, especially the ones contained in the steel work overhead.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2009, 11:00:04 PM »
Taxing 28 - POOR WEE CREATURES!


80 lemmings
Save 70% (56)
Release rate 1
5 minutes

1 climber, 1 floater, 4 bombers, 4 blockers, 8 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner

Good: A level that (aside from its large left-right extent) wouldn't have been out of place in the Genesis Sunsoft levels, with very efficient use of skills to create a puzzle involving using parts of terrain that look like mere decoration to your benefit.
Bad: Not efficient enough: it's perfectly possible to complete the level the boring way by building up from the very bottom. (In fact, that's how I originally solved it.)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2009, 06:25:59 AM »
DOS - Taxing 29 - How do I dig up the way?


Lemmings: 80
Save: 76 (95%)
RR: 80
Time: 4
Skills: 5 builders, 10 everything else

Good: High RR means you have to act quickly to keep the lemmings from falling off the cliff. Nice clean visual design (not easy to do with the dirt set) and you can't just build to the top this time.

Bad: Too easy for this point in the game, for a few reasons:
- too many skills, especially builders (really, this level only needs one)
- too easy to contain the lemmings - it would be tougher if they didn't survive the fall from the left side.
- percentage requirement and release rate are low enough that you can just use a miner at the start and not lose too many lemmings.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2009, 06:55:25 AM »


DOS - Taxing 30 - We all fall down


Lemmings: 60
Save: 60 (100%)
Release Rate: 1
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 60 diggers.

Good: At least this is the last level, this level challenges the lack of time with a low release rate and more lemmings.
Okay: A little terrain change on the far right hand side ???
Bad: Still boring and too long, still too much walking with the inclusion of repetitive action.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2009, 11:01:25 AM »
What terrain change do you see? I can't see any. (Though it's true that the We All Fall Down levels are stored as two complete levels, with repeat level data for the other two, so there could be one....)

Mayhem 1 - Steel Works


80 lemmings
Save 90% (72)
Release rate 15
8 minutes

5 floaters, 10 bombers, 5 blockers, 30 builders, 5 diggers

Good: An awe-inspiring start to the last category; building the landing stage is not easy with the save percentage so high, and getting up the final cliff without running out of builders requires a good ability to estimate. An excellent level, and one of my top five :)
Bad: The middle part (getting over the water) could have been removed without detracting much from the level (with the number of builders correspondingly reduced, of course).

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2009, 11:57:49 AM »
Mayhem 2 - The boiler room


Lemmings: 80
Save 90% (72)
Release rate: 30
Time: 6 minutes

5 floaters, 10 bombers, 10 blockers, 30 builders, 10 climbers.

Good: The title says it all, blocks an obvious path with a flame trap making it significantly harder. Not all of the level is hero based.
Bad: Too much time and too many builders, The scaffolding on the right looks a little bit dull.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2009, 03:11:40 PM »
Mayhem 3 - It's hero time!


30 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 99
1 minute

1 of each skill

Good: Excellent title, and a clever puzzle with a neat solution. Very efficient use of skills to force you to think about using all the skill types (except of course the bomber as it's a 100% level). One of the most memorable levels of the game by anyone's standards.
Bad: Too early in the category, though admittedly not by much.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2009, 07:02:58 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 4 - The crossroads


Lemmings: 50
Save 80% (40)
Release rate: 99
Time: 1 minute

Skills: 10 bombers, 10 bashers

Good: The title says it all. The 99 release make the level hard and chaotic.
Bad: Can be solved 100%, too short because of the 1 minute time limit, it doesn't reflect your mind very much.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2009, 08:08:12 PM »
Bad: Can be solved 100%

It's interesting to note that on the Amiga version they did make this level require 100%, but only on the Amiga version AFAIK.  Clearly someone must've thought it's too harsh to the player to require 100% on such a chaotic level at this early stage of Mayhem.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2009, 08:22:31 PM »
The Mac version also requires 100%, which isn't too surprising as the Mac also has harsher targets on certain other levels such as that 100% on Taxing 22.

Mayhem 5 - Down, along, up, in that order


80 lemmings
Save 75% (60)
Release rate 80
5 minutes

2 climbers, 2 floaters, 10 bombers, 10 blockers, 5 builders, 1 basher, 5 miners

Good: Uses a new and clever trick -- the infamous builder-turning. Also quite an awe-inspiring level when you first encounter it, as you probably used a lot more builders than that to solve the Fun version! Contains extra skills, but a clever player can use these well to save more than the requirement.
Bad: Rather a mundane title.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2009, 09:24:06 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 6 - One way or another


Lemmings: 75
Save: 75 (100%)
RR: 50
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 10 bombers, 15 builders, 5 miners, 5 diggers

Good: Cleverly designed with two viable solutions, and plenty of room for variation in each. The trapdoor directly above the exit gives you that "so close, but so far" feeling.

Bad: Bombers in a 100% level? I know I keep going on about this, but it it's like every second level has bombers that you can't use. This one certainly doesn't need them for balancing the skillset or whatever. And the one-way walls aren't necessary - one has no effect at all because it faces the right way (and it's too high for the miner one-way bug to trigger), and mining the other wall lands you in the pit anyway.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2009, 11:27:11 PM »
Finally, time to review a level!  YES!

DOS - Mayhem 7 - Poles Apart

Lemmings:  50
To save:  45 (90%)
Time: 5 min.
RR:  50
Skills:
Climber x1
Floater x10
Builder x6
Basher x4
Digger x4

Good:  Clever solution, doesn't present itself easily, but isn't complicated either.
Okay:  Percentage requirements and skill amounts could be loosened a little (or the level positioned slightly later in Mayhem.
Bad:  Prioritizing, prioritizing, prioritizing!

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2009, 12:17:23 AM »
Mayhem 8 - Last one out is a rotten egg!


80 lemmings
Save 90% (72)
Release rate 55
5 minutes

5 climbers, 5 bombers, 5 blockers, 10 builders, 5 miners, 5 diggers

Good: Two challenges in one: beating a one-way wall without bashers and surviving a long fall without floaters. A memorable and tough level.
Bad: Rather a glaring backroute that could have been avoided by structuring the steel blocks better.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2009, 06:15:09 AM »
DOS - Mayhem 9 - Curse of the Pharaohs


80 lemmings
Save 98% (79)
Release rate: 90
Time: 4 minutes

20 bombers, 1 blocker, 12 builders, 5 bashers, 1 digger

Good: Good relation to the terrain set.
Bad: Can be solved 100%, doesn't make a big difference to the Fun solution.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2009, 10:33:56 AM »
Mayhem 10 - Pillars of Hercules


75 lemmings
Save 66% (50)
Release rate 1
5 minutes

2 climbers, 3 floaters, 4 bombers, 2 blockers, 20 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers

Good: Another challenging "build a landing platform" level, and getting to the exit gives you the option of two routes, both quite tricky.
Bad: The long build at the end. Exits could have been below the end pillars without making this a less interesting level.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2009, 10:50:47 AM »
Mayhem 11 - We all fall down


80 lemmings
Save 80 (100%)
Release rate 1
3 minutes
80 diggers

Good: At last this design begins to provide a genuine challenge - there's not nearly enough time at the default rate, and if you don't watch out you're gonna run out of rope.
Bad: Only 11 levels since the last one - if you actually managed to solve all of Taxing (including Upsidedown and Triple Trouble) before unlocking it. Which is doubtful :P. But in any case, you probably saw this level coming, and predictability in a puzzle game is not a good thing.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2009, 11:12:10 AM »
Bad: Only 11 levels since the last one - if you actually managed to solve all of Taxing (including Upsidedown and Triple Trouble) before unlocking it.

Oh, I certainly did :P

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »
Bad: Only 11 levels since the last one - if you actually managed to solve all of Taxing (including Upsidedown and Triple Trouble) before unlocking it.

Oh, I certainly did :P

Hmm... I don't actually remember how I did it the first time around - far too long ago. However, judging by some of the sentiment in the top 5/bottom 5 thread, maybe some people didn't.

Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2009, 11:49:26 AM »
Mayhem 12 - The Far Side


75 Lemmings
Save 75 (100%)
Release Rate 50
4 Minutes
2 Climbers, 1 Floater, 20 Builders, 5 Bashers, 5 Miners, 5 Diggers

Good: This level is VERY fun, and thus was one of my favourites before I got the concept of challenging puzzles and simply liked levels that were fun to play. The concept of having to go the long way around also was quite an interesting idea to me.
Bad: This is one of those levels which would still be just fine without a tough time limit, yet gives you one anyway. Also, there's all the backroutes (but since they involve glitches, they're not proper backroutes IMO). Also, it could've done with the digging and bashing through the terrain on the bottom left being made compulsory... as it is, lemmings can survive that drop, even under Original mechanics.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2009, 12:36:39 PM »
Also, it could've done with the digging and bashing through the terrain on the bottom left being made compulsory... as it is, lemmings can survive that drop, even under Original mechanics.

Interesting, never notice that.  Then again, it looks high enough that I think most people would dare not try the drop.  And even if they do decide to use the drop, they would still need to either dig or mine to turn the lemmings around first, so at least it's not significantly easier than requiring digging and bashing.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2009, 12:41:43 PM »
I was trying one of the challenges when I discovered that (I think it was the single lemming one). Before that, I thought the same thing.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #121 on: September 03, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »
I knew about the drop from the first time I played that level :)

But now, it's time for my favourite level of all!

Mayhem 13 - The Great Lemming Caper


2 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 50
5 minutes

1 climber, 1 floater, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 2 builders, 10 bashers, 10 miners, 10 diggers

Good: Has the most beautiful solution of any level in the game -- and you have to love the efficiency involved in making such a good puzzle with only two lemmings.
Bad: Too many backroutes. The single-lemming backroute doesn't detract from the level too much (and it inspired an interesting challenge!) but they could so easily have cut out the other backroute by removing the blockers.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #122 on: September 03, 2009, 04:11:46 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 14 - Pea Soup


Lemmings: 80
Save 93% (75)
Release rate: 70
Time: 5 minutes

10 bombers, 10 blockers, 30 builders, 21 diggers

Good: The name says it all. Removes the basher to remove a horrendous backroute. The 21 diggers give a clue.
Bad: Too many skills and too much time. Cut some of the bombers out next time. Also, a bit dark out in the open.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #123 on: September 03, 2009, 09:18:00 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 15 - The Fast Food Kitchen...


Lemmings: 80
Save 60 (75%)
Release rate: 60
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 10 of each

Good: Good title, nice clean design.
Bad: It's easier than the Tricky version! There's still enough time that you don't have to multitask (aside from blocking the lemmings, which you had to do anyway) and you're allowed to lose many more lemmings this time. And with all skills still available, the solution is no different.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #124 on: September 03, 2009, 09:27:29 PM »
You also missed the point that the level template looks too generic without the lava, this is DOS remember.

DOS - Mayhem 16 - Just a minute


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50 (100%)
Release rate: 10
Time: 1 minute
Skills: 1 floater, 5 bombers, 5 bashers, 5 diggers.

Good: Takes another break from the building levels, the minute makes the whole level difficult forcing you to use the release rate, nice 3d style scenery on the left.
Bad: Cut those bombers out, it's not necessary to add them in a 100% level.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #125 on: September 03, 2009, 09:29:24 PM »
You also missed the point that the level template looks too generic without the lava, this is DOS remember.

I think I mentioned that when I reviewed the Tricky version of that level. Of course it's still true.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2009, 09:51:32 PM »
There's still enough time that you don't have to multitask

The funny thing is, the Amiga version actually only gives you 2 minutes instead of 3, and of course that version also has one of the fastest game clocks (as well as having 100 instead of just 80 lemmings).  So clearly it was meant to require multitasking, but then somewhere along the line someone must've complained that the original version is too hard or something.  Or maybe they didn't like having 2 consecutive time-constrained levels?

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2009, 09:56:38 PM »
We don't care about Amiga just yet, shall someone do the next level? I know that there's a ceiling route to this level.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2009, 09:59:37 PM »
Maybe you don't ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />, that doesn't mean others won't want to know about how certain levels evolved from port to port.

It's unbelievable how you do nothing but complain and rush other people.  If you want to review a level, please do it yourself instead of whining for others to do it and attacking stuff other people want to say. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2009, 10:05:05 PM »
Hang on, I hope you haven't forgotten the rules of this topic. I'm not allowed to do two levels at once you see, according to them, and remember, I'm not telling you, I'm only asking. It is a question isn't it? :-\

Mind you, I was too addicted to reviewing levels that I did forget the rule, especially when I shouldn't be doing Tricky 1 or 4.

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2009, 10:08:07 PM »
Fine, but you're not doing anybody any favors by whining about getting the next level reviewed while attacking other people's comments.  Notice that instead of having the next post being the review, we now instead have added 3-4 extra posts arguing against each other.  Good job.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2009, 10:31:05 PM »
Added to which, I now have to look back at the previous page to find out which level I'm meant to be reviewing :P

Mayhem 17 - Stepping Stones


80 lemmings
Save 87% (70)
Release rate 50
4 minutes

5 climbers, 2 floaters, 2 blockers, 10 builders, 5 bashers, 5 miners, 5 diggers

Good: Two new challenges: judging the right moment to stop building and land on the stepping stones, and building over a blocker. The most accessible "ceiling route" level and a good introduction to the concept. Wonder if the designers knew about that route when they designed this level?
Bad: I can't think of anything. This is a good level, and a fun one to revisit and try different solutions.

Trivia: This level appeared on the box art of the Mac version. It was interesting when I finally reached the level and thought, "Aha, it's that one!" Even more interesting, the screenshot showed the lemmings faffing about in the terrain to the left of the entrance. Were they trying to hint at the existence of the ceiling route?

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Re: javascript:void(0);Level Review Topic
« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2009, 11:18:48 PM »
Mayhem 18 - And then there were four...

Lemmings:  80
To save:  90% (72)
RR:  1
Time  9 minutes
Skills:  2 climbers, 20 bombers, 10 blockers, 30 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners, 2 diggers

Good:  Nice level, encourages multitasking, but doesn't actually enforce it too much.
Okay:  The level can be a little frustrating at first, but it's not terrible.
Bad:  What's with all the bombers?  You can't lose twenty lemmings, so why twenty bombers?

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #133 on: September 04, 2009, 03:10:35 AM »
Quote from:  Dullstar (post heading)
Re: javascript:void(0);Level Review Topic

How the heck did that happen? :o


Moving on...
DOS - Mayhem 19 - Time to get up!


Lemmings: 50
Save 46 (92%)
Release rate: 20
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 2 climbers, 4 bombers, 20 builders

Good: This level is imposing at first sight, as you would expect at this point in the game, because of the placement of the entrance and exit as well as the restrictive skillset.
Bad: Bomber timing always seems to creep in at about this point in the difficulty rating... fortunately this is the only one for the next while. But it's a tough one - bomber timing on two climbers on a wall is very difficult. (There is an alternative of course, but it's not immediately apparent.) 20 builders is far too many, and 5 minutes is too long.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #134 on: September 04, 2009, 07:09:06 AM »
Sorry for the argument that I made earlier, it was my wrong time to do it. I should have deleted that post unless ccexplore does decide to delete it. That was the third time ccexplore said to me about rushing things.

DOS - Mayhem 20 - No added colours or lemmings


Lemmings: 50
Save 50 (100%)
Release rate: 85
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 2 miners, 1 basher.

Good: Recreates the level to make a fantastic brain-bending solution.
Bad: Random title like in the Fun Levels, Solution is frustrating.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #135 on: September 04, 2009, 07:26:33 AM »
The funny thing is, the Amiga version actually only gives you 2 minutes instead of 3, and of course that version also has one of the fastest game clocks (as well as having 100 instead of just 80 lemmings).  So clearly it was meant to require multitasking, but then somewhere along the line someone must've complained that the original version is too hard or something.  Or maybe they didn't like having 2 consecutive time-constrained levels?

I only just noticed this post at the bottom of the page there. 2 minutes would have been right for this level. As it is, in DOS at least, it's just wrong. :(


Bad: Random title like in the Fun Levels, Solution is frustrating.

I'd like to mention a reason why this is frustrating. If you start the bridge-miner too high, it splats on the ground because of how miners don't get the extra 3 pixels of falling distance like walkers do. This is incredibly annoying, especially if you don't know why it happens and you see other lemmings fall safely from the same height (although if this happens then you've lost anyway. Still not good though).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #136 on: September 04, 2009, 12:32:12 PM »
Mayhem 21 - With a twist of lemming please


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
5 minutes

1 climber, 50 floaters, 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

Good: Another very elegant puzzle (which I didn't manage to solve :( ), nice punny title, and, together with the previous level, builds up well to the climax of Mayhem.
Bad: The "added interest" of having to make all 50 lemmings floaters falls a little flat -- just set the release rate to 99 and click away. Makes this level very frustrating on versions that don't allow RR changes while paused.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #137 on: September 04, 2009, 03:56:51 PM »
Quote from:  Dullstar (post heading)
Re: javascript:void(0);Level Review Topic

How the heck did that happen? :o

I think that he dragged a smiley into the subject box while he was posting. Anyway, I'll do the next level, because I didn't get the chance to review a special level yet.

DOS - Mayhem 22 - A BeastII of a level


Lemmings: 80
Save 68 (85%)
Release rate: 75
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 15 builders, 10 of the rest.

Good: Another pleasant looking special graphics level, features a new obstacle which is quite tough to get through.
Bad: Too late for Mayhem, can be solved with 8 of each skill. A little bit shorter than the other special levels.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #138 on: September 04, 2009, 06:06:44 PM »
Just recapping on Proxima's point about Taxing 7:

Why allow you to lose two lemmings? Did they have some other solution in mind, and if so, what?

I guess if you set the blocker too late, you could lose your climber as he climbs over the big hill and falls on the left.

If that happens, it would be impossible to solve because all the lemmings will be crowded before the next few bridges will be built. So yeah, I wonder why as well. ???

And also, for Mayhem 20:

Bad: Random title like in the Fun Levels, Solution is frustrating.

I'd like to mention a reason why this is frustrating. If you start the bridge-miner too high, it splats on the ground because of how miners don't get the extra 3 pixels of falling distance like walkers do. This is incredibly annoying, especially if you don't know why it happens and you see other lemmings fall safely from the same height (although if this happens then you've lost anyway. Still not good though).

I didn't know they'd splat. Anyway, my reason (If I can explain it clearly enough) is that with such a high release rate, all the lemmings come out at once crowded with the blocker (which will eventually be freed), then the bridge miner might send one or two lemmings down at the bottom because they are all so crowded, if the miner was too late then he would dig a tunnel thus avoiding the exit.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #139 on: September 04, 2009, 07:22:26 PM »
Just recapping on Proxima's point about Taxing 7:

Why allow you to lose two lemmings? Did they have some other solution in mind, and if so, what?

I guess if you set the blocker too late, you could lose your climber as he climbs over the big hill and falls on the left.

If that happens, it would be impossible to solve because all the lemmings will be crowded before the next few bridges will be built. So yeah, I wonder why as well. ???

I don't mean setting the blocker that late.  I don't know how crowded exactly the lemmings are at that point, but it's still conceivable that someone who forgot to set the blocker before sending the climber over to bash the wall, may try to make up for it on-the-spot by blocking after the one-way-wall has been bashed, somewhere before the gaps you need to build over.  This late blocking will still hold back the crowd and you could make it so that exactly one lemming is located beyond the blocker to do the building.  But in this case, if the climber is already well inside the crowd when you start blocking, the climber will simply climb up the big hill on the left and fall into the abyss.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2009, 08:38:31 PM »
This late blocking will still hold back the crowd and you could make it so that exactly one lemming is located beyond the blocker to do the building.  But in this case, if the climber is already well inside the crowd when you start blocking, the climber will simply climb up the big hill on the left and fall into the abyss.

It's actually the middle of the broken ship (:D). Anyway, now I definitely understand. Thanks.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2009, 09:16:29 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 23 - Going up.......


Lemmings: 80
Save 64 (80%)
Release rate: 70
Time: 9 minutes
Skills: 1 floater, 20 bombers, 20 blockers, 20 builders, 5 bashers

Good: Another imposing design, that looks at first like it might be a tough challenge. Isolating a lemming to build to the wall while keeping back the crowd is challenging.
Bad: It takes over one minute and 20 seconds to bash through the wall, during which time there is absolutely nothing to do. :sick: And the last part of the level looks as though it might require you to do something (like bomb through it), but really the lemmings can just walk over it to the exit. Which is a bit of a let-down - and also means most of those bombers and blockers are useless.

And one more thing - a standard ellipsis consists of three full stops, not seven.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2009, 09:24:35 PM »
Good shout. That's why I put it in the bottom 5 which no else has. This is such a forgettable level.

DOS - Mayhem 24 - All or Nothing


Lemmings: 50
Save 50 (100%)
Release rate: 99
Time: 1 minute
Skills: 3 bashers

Good: Can be a little bit exciting to see whether you've done it or not. Good scenery.
Bad: Three bashers, and that's it. Too many lemmings, which is unecessary since they all lock up. The only level to please you or stump you for many days to come.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2009, 10:14:31 PM »
Quote from:  Dullstar (post heading)
Re: javascript:void(0);Level Review Topic

How the heck did that happen?  :o

O_o...  no point in fixing it though, it's kinda funny!

I'll review now...

DOS - Mayhem 25 - Have a nice day!


Lemmings: 80
To save:  72 (90%)
Release Rate:  [/]1
Time:  5 minutes
Skills:
  • 2 climbers, floaters, and blockers
  • 25 builders
  • 1 basher, digger, miner
Good:  Not straightforward, looks nice . . .
Okay:  . . . though a lot if it is gone in the DOS version.  This WOULD count count as "bad" if the terrain that was present didn't look too good.
Bad:  Builders are an annoying skill to sue just because of the time it takes to build lots of stairs!

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2009, 10:27:19 PM »
Ah yes, time to revisit a level I will never forget....

Mayhem 26 - The Steel Mines of Kessel


100 lemmings (Amiga); 80 lemmings (DOS, Mac)
Save 90% (Amiga, Mac); 75% (DOS)
Release rate 50
8 minutes

10 bombers, 10 blockers, 10 builders (Amiga, Mac); 20 of each (DOS)

Good: A very different challenge -- we've had levels like "Let's block and blow" before, but now we have to use bombers and blockers to get through a much more complex terrain.
Bad: For some reason, the DOS version gives you 20 of each skill, making the level much easier, even though its position shows that it was meant as an imposing climax. And I've told you all before about what happens on the Mac version, where the requirement is even tighter than intended (because it's still 90% but the level only has 80 lemmings), combined with the fact that three of the "thorns" in the terrain hold back the lemmings when they're not meant to.... on the plus side, actually completing this leviathan of a level was one of the most satisfying moments of my life. (It took me ten years!)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 02:52:29 AM by Proxima »

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2009, 11:37:30 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 27 - Just a Minute (Part 2)

Lemmings:  50
To save:  50 (100%)
Release Rate:  10
Skills:
  • 1 climber, floater
  • 5 bombers, bashers, and diggers
Good:  Breaks away from the short levels that give 5 minutes.
Okay:  Terrain complicates things a lot.
Bad:  Release Rate timing isn't fun.  Maybe it should have been "Just 2 Minutes" or "Just a Minute (and a half)"  instead, especially in faster clock versions, such as Amiga.  Makes one want ot rip their hair out.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2009, 11:49:30 PM »
DOS - Mayhem 28 - Mind the step.....


Lemmings: 1
Save 1 (100%)
Release rate: 1
Time: 7 minutes
Skills: 25 builders, 10 bashers, 15 diggers

Good: The first solo lemming puzzle - a real surprise, which is good to have near the end of the game. Fiendishly difficult too. Plus the layout is good and the brick patterns are nice.
Bad: The ceiling route destroys this level as a challenge. Too much repetition in the regular solution, especially the lower-right part.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2009, 11:52:49 PM »
Bad: The ceiling route destroys this level as a challenge.

To be fair, at least on my copy of DOS Lemmings on my computer, the "LemSteven ceiling syndrome" prevents the ceiling route from working unless you run my special program.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2009, 11:57:49 PM »
Oh, yeah... Hey, I never tried that on my own copy. I should do that now. (Update to come...)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #149 on: September 05, 2009, 12:01:05 AM »
What version are we going to review next?  I hope not Amiga JUST YET.  After doing DOS, it's a little early to do Amiga...  Actually, why don't we carry on into DOS ONML, then into the 4 holiday lemming games (not including the ONML levels in 1991)

BREAKING YOUR DISCUSSION

DOS - Mayhem 29 - Save me

Lemmings:  80
To save: 64
Release Rate: 50
Time:  5 minutes
Skills

Good:  Looks nice, plus a descriptive name.
Okay:  This would have made a good last level.
Bad:  Could use more terrain to avoid having to do some clicking at exactly the right moment.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2009, 12:13:45 AM »
What version are we going to review next?  I hope not Amiga JUST YET.

No way!  Most of the Amiga levels have little difference to DOS, it'd be quite pointless to review them.

My expectation was that indeed we'll do ONML and Holiday.  Alternatively, somewhere along the way we could consider doing the many extra levels in the Sega Genesis (aka Megadrive) version of Lemmings.  Some time ago I even extracted the levels from that game for DOS/Lemmix use, I'll see if I can dig them up.  (You could of course always just search the net for the ROMs and use an emulator.)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #151 on: September 05, 2009, 12:30:12 AM »
Oh, yeah... Hey, I never tried that on my own copy. I should do that now. (Update to come...)

Well that was weird. The lemming bashed through the ceiling just fine (except for the second steel wall) the first time, but then I encountered the problem LemSteven described after running your program.


BTW if we do ONML next, may I suggest we skip Tame and start with Crazy.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #152 on: September 05, 2009, 12:52:54 AM »
It seems to have fallen to me to finish this off.

I would also like to do ONML next, but I do not think we should skip Tame. We could whizz through them pretty fast, as I doubt anything we say will provoke much debate, but there are definitely some levels that are better (more fun, less tedious) than others and I'd be interested to hear others' opinions and have a chance to share mine.

Mayhem 30 - Rendezvous at the Mountain


80 lemmings
Save 75% (60)
Release rate 20
9 minutes

30 builders, 1 floater, 4 diggers, 10 of each other skill

Good: Best title ever (and it was Googling this level title that led me to discover this community in the first place, so you all have reason to be glad it exists :P ). And an awesome last level, with the sheer scale of it, and the theme of bringing the lemmings together for the last hurrah. Anyone who objects to this level coming last just because it isn't the hardest is, to be quite frank, missing the point.
Bad: Somewhat random collection of skills. Why reduce the number of diggers to 4 when you don't really need diggers at all?

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #153 on: September 05, 2009, 02:27:50 AM »
Let's get started.  We'll just use the shots from Clam Spammer's Tame challenges for now...

DOS - Tame 1 - Down and out Lemmings

Lemmings: 
50
To save:
  25 (50%)
Release Rate: 
1
Time: 
4 minutes

Good: 
A variety of ways that it can be solved exist.  There are your simple methods, and there are your complicated ones, like Clam Spammer's challenge.
Okay: 
The release rate is VERY low.  Play area looks fine . . .
Bad: 
. . . but other than that, needs more decorative terrain.

By the way, Clam Spammer, how do you pull that Tame 1 challenge off? ???

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #154 on: September 05, 2009, 02:54:57 AM »
By the way, Clam Spammer, how do you pull that Tame 1 challenge off? ???

Ah, yes, that's a tough one. Not as tough as builders only or bashers only though ;). Okay, here's a hint: (highlight to read)

Don't try it in the Amiga version - it ain't gonna work. (Based on what I've heard, at least, since I haven't played this version)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #155 on: September 05, 2009, 03:58:30 AM »
What's that Tame 1 challenge you're talking about? I'm interested :D
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #156 on: September 05, 2009, 04:30:21 AM »
Click the link in my sig to go to the page with all my Lemmix level packs. The two packs "CSTame1" and "CSTame2" contain Custom Lemmings-style versions of the Tame levels with tougher skill sets and time limits. These are the "Tame challenges" that I originally posted on the old forums.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #157 on: September 05, 2009, 04:36:12 AM »
Click the link in my sig to go to the page with all my Lemmix level packs. The two packs "CSTame1" and "CSTame2" contain Custom Lemmings-style versions of the Tame levels with tougher skill sets and time limits. These are the "Tame challenges" that I originally posted on the old forums.

I tried to open the level in Lemmix and it said: TDosOrigStyle.FinGraphicSet 5 not found. :(
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #158 on: September 05, 2009, 05:03:47 AM »
The two packs "CSTame1" and "CSTame2" contain Custom Lemmings-style versions of the Tame levels

Just open it as you would any other custom level pack.

Offline Fernito

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #159 on: September 05, 2009, 05:16:25 AM »
That's exactly what I did. Actually, I tried with my pack -which is Custom lemmings-style as well- and it works just fine.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2009, 05:32:26 AM »
Ah, I see. Do you have the Oh No More Lemmings graphics files in your Lemmix folder? (I'm guessing you don't since none of your custom levels are made with Oh No graphics.) What you need to do is:

- copy the graphics files (ground#o.dat and vgagr#.dat - there should be four of each) from your ONML folder
- rename them so that the numbers are from 5 to 8 instead of 0 to 3 (add 5 to each), so Lemmix can read them
- (optional) while you're at it, copy over the Xmas graphics from Holiday lemmings and make this number 9.


I wonder if it's about time we had an FAQ for this sort of thing... you're certainly not the first to ask about this.  :)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2009, 05:49:03 AM »
Damn, I hate causing you guys so much trouble :(

I already have all Cust Lemm core files into my folder. The weird thing is that I can play levels with Oh no graphics with no issues, like ccexplore's response to Insane Steve's challenge. The only pack that's giving me trouble is yours :(

EDIT: AHHH I'M SO STUPID! Forget everything I said. Got them running now  :-[
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2009, 06:00:46 AM »
I tried to open the level in Lemmix and it said: TDosOrigStyle.FinGraphicSet 5 not found. :(

EDIT: Apparently it's working now. I'll leave this post for reference.

Good luck with those challenges now ;)


(original post)
Aargh... sorry, I misread the error message there. This means you're opening the level in Original lemmings mode. The levelpack viewer uses this mode by default. When you open a single-level file (like ccexplore's challenge level), it prompts you to select a viewer style, but when you open a level pack, it doesn't. You need to right-click the levelpack viewer window, select "Change viewer style..." and select Custom Lemmings from the menu that pops up.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2009, 06:06:34 AM »
Good luck with those challenges now ;)

I just played the challenge and the only thing I can say is... how on earth???  ??? hahahahaha

OK, sorry for keeping this off-topic ;P
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2009, 06:20:22 AM »
That's okay.  :D

Now that's been resolved... On with the reviews! Rather than saying the same thing about each level (Good: Variety of solutions, good for challenges. Bad: Too easy), I'll try to take this as given and find something else to talk about.

Tame 2 - Rent-a-Lemming

(insert Tame stats here)

Good: Nice clean design that takes up the whole screen and not much more.

Bad: Too much empty space above the trapdoor. Needs more green stuff (crystals, grass) for decoration. And if you look closely you'll see some gaps in the terrain.


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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #165 on: September 05, 2009, 10:39:56 AM »
Oh, yeah... Hey, I never tried that on my own copy. I should do that now. (Update to come...)

Well that was weird. The lemming bashed through the ceiling just fine (except for the second steel wall) the first time, but then I encountered the problem LemSteven described after running your program.

(Hey, I'm stacking my own quotes now. Hehehe... :P)

I noticed something else strange during these tests, and I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before. (Knowing you guys, though, it probably has. ;)) When the lemming bashes through the ceiling, I start getting flashing black lines spreading across the skills toolbar. They get longer as the lemming keeps bashing - in fact they seem to lengthen at the same rate as the basher digs through the terrain, and even at the same time as it destroys the terrain (in short, separate bursts). At first I thought it was a sign the game was about to crash - fortunately it didn't. :D

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #166 on: September 05, 2009, 11:25:48 AM »
Let's get started.  We'll just use the shots from Clam Spammer's Tame challenges for now...
.

Hang on a minute guys. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />  I don't want OhNo more lemmings to be reviewed. I know I do it sometimes but Dullstar especially, you've rushed from game to game rather than console to console (in other words you did not read the front page). I was about to say slow down but my goodness, why are you taking levels which overlap the right of the screen?

I did say I was going to do the PSP version, although I actually changed my mind and prefer to do Genesis. If you want OhNo to be reviewed, PLEASE DO IT ON A SEPARATE TOPIC. I'm sending a message to the topic leader, Adam. BTW I'm not going to review any more levels with pictures overlapping the edge of the screen. That is ridiculous. Just wait until we get more pictures, and also, since I deleted my editor, I can't be bothered to upload the Crazy, Wild, Wicked or Havoc images. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #167 on: September 05, 2009, 11:49:39 AM »
minimac94, could you please stop acting like you own the place. Okay, we haven't considered your opinion yet, but do note that no less than four of us agreed that the next set of levels to review should be ONML. Considering how many people actually post reviews here, I'd say that's enough of a consensus to go on with. I will suggest that we take a moment to reconsider the direction of this thread, but I personally don't expect the outcome to change. I'm not about to change my mind - I don't want to review the Genesis levels because I don't have them and I've never played them.

You've never complained about level pictures extending off the screen before (as far as I recall - feel free to direct me to such a post if it exists). Why start now? Just be grateful we actually have pictures for these levels.

Offline Fleech

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #168 on: September 05, 2009, 12:17:27 PM »
Sorry to take this further off-topic, but are you interested in playing the Mega Drive/Genesis levels Clam Spammer? Thanks to ccexplore (and a tiny bit of help from me, but he deserves the credit ;)) they're all available in LVL format if you want them.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2009, 12:31:07 PM »
Dunno bout him, but I sure am! Link please?
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Offline Adam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2009, 12:48:03 PM »
Mega Drive / Genesis next, then Sega Master System! That should keep us going for a while.

I'll leave this next part up to you. Do you want to review ALL levels, or just the exclusive levels?

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2009, 02:17:55 PM »
That's an interesting question. We'll try all the exclusive levels.

Didn't mean to be so dramatic earlier on today, but generally I just wanted to let you know that we should have left it at this point after we finished Mayhem 30, not carry on doing ONML until we decided what to do next.

Anyway, good work putting the link up, Fleech! :)
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Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #172 on: September 05, 2009, 02:33:33 PM »
I think all the exclusive levels is fine. Also: Only those that are truly exclusive. I remember that one version has ONML levels remade in Original graphic sets - I think these should be excluded. Also, levels that are strongy similar to existing levels even if they have minor differences, should be excluded (for example, "Sixes Not" and "With A Twist Of Lemming Please" from Sega Master System should be excluded. On the other hand, "Stepping Stones" is unique enough that it should be reviewed.)
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #173 on: September 05, 2009, 02:40:53 PM »
One version has ONML levels remade in Original graphic sets - I think these should be excluded.

Don't forget, we haven't reviewed those levels yet, so I disagree, we ARE going to put those levels in.
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Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #174 on: September 05, 2009, 03:03:57 PM »
I don't see the point. We can just review them as ONML levels when we get up to that. Much easier than keeping track of exactly which ones were or weren't already done as other version levels.
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Offline Adam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #175 on: September 05, 2009, 03:23:43 PM »
I think we should review the ONML remakes in the Genesis version, AND review the ONML levels themselves. The chances of someone reviewing the same level twice are very slim, and some people might not realise that the Genesis levels are ONML remakes... it took me a while to figure it out!


Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2009, 03:42:04 PM »
Like I said earlier, I would review ONML in a separate topic if I were you.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #177 on: September 05, 2009, 03:43:11 PM »
I like that idea. How would you feel about having ONML and The Tribes in the same topic?

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #178 on: September 05, 2009, 05:06:32 PM »
Okay, I see that there are complaints 'bout ONML, so let's go on with the Genesis Version!

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #179 on: September 05, 2009, 05:52:27 PM »
Lets go! :D I'll start with "Room with no exit" because this one is different to The Crankshaft Template

Genesis - Fun 14 - Room with no exit


Number of lemmings: 100
100% to be saved
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 80

Skills: 50 bashers

Good: A nice challenge based on just one skill in the whole level, but not too hard either, better than the Crankshaft.
Bad: Too much walking to the exit.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #180 on: September 05, 2009, 09:39:59 PM »
Well, talk about a flip-flop... As long as there's enough interest in the ONML review thread to keep that going, then I don't mind.


Sorry to take this further off-topic, but are you interested in playing the Mega Drive/Genesis levels Clam Spammer? Thanks to ccexplore (and a tiny bit of help from me, but he deserves the credit ;)) they're all available in LVL format if you want them.

Awesome :thumbsup: I'll check these out when I get a moment. Although I must say this first map looks familiar - it must have been used in a custom level. I suspect the same is true of some other levels too.


I like that idea. How would you feel about having ONML and The Tribes in the same topic?

Now that you mention Lemmings 2... I wonder if we could have separate threads for Lemmings Chronicles and 3D as well. This might be too many review threads to have open at once, but I would like to see what people think of these levels too.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #181 on: September 05, 2009, 09:53:27 PM »
Okay, here's the link to the ohno more lemmings level review topic.

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=163.0

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #182 on: September 07, 2009, 07:18:56 PM »
I'm currently obeying to Dullstar's rule: "Wait for someone else to review the next level unless 48 hours have elapsed". Since you all didn't review the next level, I'll do it instead.

Genesis - Fun 15 - Tea time in the ball country


Number of lemmings: 20
70% to be saved (14)
Time: 4 minutes
Release rate: 10
Skills: 10 of each

Good: Some good 3d style design, and ideal for some challenges.
Bad: I don't know why that one-way block is there, as the solution is backrouted and makes that block unusable. I personally think the DOS version of level 15 is better, even though the lemmings don't get paid for stamina.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #183 on: September 07, 2009, 07:28:05 PM »
Where ARE those images coming from?

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #184 on: September 07, 2009, 07:33:01 PM »
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #185 on: September 07, 2009, 07:44:12 PM »
Good try with the link, and then remember to click "Sega Genesis/Megadrive" on the left side.

OK, The next level to review is "Take a little rest", the one after the next.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #186 on: September 07, 2009, 07:48:00 PM »
Bad: I don't know why that one-way block is there, as the solution is backrouted and makes that block unusable.

A little thing I would have brought up before, but as I wasn't active on the forum at the time the Fun 11 review was posted, I didn't want to go back and reopen discussion of such an old post. There's no such thing as a "backroute" of such an easy level. The metaphor behind the word "backroute" is getting into a house that someone has taken great pains to make difficult to enter, but a back door has been left open. Solving Fun 11 any other way than two athletes, block and bash -- or solving Genesis Fun 15 any way that involves the one-way wall -- is more akin to finding a house whose front door has been left open, and getting in by digging a tunnel.

Anyway, moving on.

On the old forums, when we reviewed the Genesis Levels, as well as saying one good thing and one bad thing we compared each level to the level occupying the same position in the Amiga/DOS version. I'm going to do that, and I'd like to propose it as a rule, but you don't have to follow suit.

Fun 16 - Take a little rest


50 lemmings
Save 80% (40)
Release rate 20
5 minutes

Good: First level that makes you think about trapping the crowd and using a worker lemming. Having to bash then immediately build keeps you on your toes, as does the limited (but not too much so) number of builders. An easier version of one of the Genesis game's best levels, and so gives you a chance to get to know the terrain.
Bad: The "worker lemming" concept feels a bit overused by now.
Better than Amiga Fun 16? No. The original has that awesome feeling of impossibility when you first see it, until you realise that you don't need to go across and then up. It doesn't need a great left-right extent to recreate, and I'm a little surprised it was replaced.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #187 on: September 07, 2009, 09:38:43 PM »
Genesis - Fun 17 - Easy When you Know How

I would honestly like to know if anyone actually cares about the full stats.  I would propose only the number of lemmings, and the number to save (and of course the names, but...).
Lemmings:  50
To Save:  20 (40%)

Good:  A nice level with multiple ways to clear it.
Bad:  On 100% runs, the leftmost entrance is troublesome.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #188 on: September 08, 2009, 05:26:28 AM »
I would honestly like to know if anyone actually cares about the full stats.

*nervously raises hand*

I think it would be worthwhile to include the full stats for each level. Remember, unlike the DOS version, there actually exist people who haven't played these levels. :P

Anyway, I thought we were only going to do levels that are different to those in the DOS / Amiga version? The one you just posted isn't one of these levels.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #189 on: September 08, 2009, 07:41:53 AM »
Anyway, I thought we were only going to do levels that are different to those in the DOS / Amiga version? The one you just posted isn't one of these levels.

That's right, Clam Spammer, even though Dullstar didn't review this level before (It was Adam who did it), we agreed that we would do levels which are different to DOS.

So that means, take away that level please Dullstar because you cloned the one which was on the first page, then I might do the next level.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #190 on: September 08, 2009, 07:13:26 PM »
Genesis - Fun 19 - Catch more floaters


Number of lemmings: 10
90% to be saved (9)
Time: 4 minutes
Release rate: 20
Skills: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 of the rest

Good: An interesting challenge to see what skill does what, colourful design.
Bad: Can be time consuming to click on even 10 lemmings as floaters.
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #191 on: September 08, 2009, 10:27:54 PM »
Please site your sources.  ;)  I don't recall reading that.  Can someone quote directly where that is said?  If you can find it (it must be before my review) I may take it down.  Until then, NO DELETION FOR YOU!

I read through.  Nowhere did it say we were only going to do unique levels, just that we were starting at the first unique one.  Of course, I didn't read back farther than when it was decided that we would do the Genesis version, but that is as far back as even reasonable.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2009, 06:49:02 AM »
I read through.  Nowhere did it say we were only going to do unique levels, just that we were starting at the first unique one.  Of course, I didn't read back farther than when it was decided that we would do the Genesis version, but that is as far back as even reasonable.

I don't think you looked a page back Dullstar did you? I did say that we were doing exclusive levels.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #193 on: September 10, 2009, 05:39:50 AM »
Now that I have these levels working, I can join in and start reviewing again. There's going to be some added interest in this for me since I've never played some of these levels before (although many found their way into custom level packs).

Fun 20 is the same as in DOS version, so the next level to review is...

Genesis - Fun 21 - Lemmings in the attic

Lemmings: 80
Save: 80 (100%)
RR: 10
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 4 bashers

Good: Cool effect with the wall of diagonal terrain pieces, and other nice touches too.
Bad: Too restrictive for a Fun level. 80 lemmings is too much for such a small puzzle.
Better than DOS Fun 21 (You Live and Lem)? No. This was a nice level with a lot of different paths, and could have been compressed (albeit with some difficulty) to fit the smaller level size without losing much.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #194 on: September 10, 2009, 06:38:31 AM »
Genesis - Fun 23 - Under construction


Number of lemmings: 50
35 to be saved (70%)
Time: 8 minutes
Release rate: 50

Skills: 20 of each

Good: Nice use of the stairways.
Bad: There isn't much to this level, and it's not as exciting as the DOS version. Only stairs and steel, which is not as colourful as the sand and pillar.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #195 on: September 10, 2009, 11:10:55 AM »
Genesis - Fun 29 - Dark Dawn

Lemmings: 100
Save: 70 (70%)
RR: 77
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 20 each

Good: The terrain layout and release rate force you to go about this one carefully. Red parts of the terrain pieces used well for decoration.
Bad: The big hole at the bottom (below the steel) looks unappealing. Timing the basher between jumps as it walks up the spike terrain can be annoying. (Do the lemmings "jump" up 3-pixel steps in the Genesis version?)
Better than DOS Fun 29 (worra lorra lemmings)? Close, but no. The original edges this out for its visual design, if nothing else.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #196 on: September 10, 2009, 12:53:14 PM »
I know it's ages yet, but I think Taxing 29 should also be reviewed when we get to that stage. The compression of the level has made quite an impact on the solution. Similarly, if the stats on each level except the number of lemmings is different (Taxing 21, I believe, requires 100% on this version [Edit: Taxing 22. My apologies.]), they should also be looked at. What do you think?
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #197 on: September 10, 2009, 01:35:24 PM »
...there's a version where Taxing 21 doesn't require 100%?

Moving on to Tricky; these levels have been rearranged with the original levels followed by the new ones, instead of keeping each new level in the same place in the sequence as the level it replaces. So I'm reviewing Tricky 9, but when I compare it to the level it replaces, that is Tricky 1, and so on.

Tricky 9 - Where do you see Lemmings?


50 lemmings
Save 96% (48)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: Unique design idea with the maze of bricks (and an inspiration for one of my Cheapo levels). Several possible approaches, and not too hard to get 100%.
Bad: Being allowed to lose two lemmings suggests the good old "trap the crowd and have a worker" standby.
Better than Tricky 1?: Yes, by miles, but having "We all fall down" as the first Tricky level is an appalling idea.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2009, 01:50:23 PM »
Taxing 21 on Master System doesn't require 100% :P but it's an entirely different level. Interestingly, the original Taxing 21 IS in there, as Mayhem 21, where I believe it does indeed require 100% (but I may be remembering wrong).
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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2009, 06:41:01 PM »
You may not care about this, but I still like it when everyone labels which console these levels are. That way we don't confuse some of the DOS levels with some of the Genesis.

Genesis - Tricky 10 - Keep Step


Number of Lemmings: 50
98% to be saved (49)
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 50

10 of each skill

Good: Less skills, includes a sheer drop, nice use of pillar cutting, lots of ways to do it. I think this level is better than the DOS level so that you don't need to do the same thing twice.
Bad: A few bits of the level are quite messy. Some invisible steel areas are too big.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #200 on: September 10, 2009, 07:57:23 PM »
Good: Less skills, includes a sheer drop, nice use of pillar cutting, lots of ways to do it. I think this level is better than the DOS level so that you don't need to do the same thing twice.

Remember though that the level it replaces is DOS Tricky 4. Especially for the one I'm about to do, it wouldn't make sense to compare Genesis Tricky 11 with DOS Tricky 11 when "Lemmings in the attic" is in the Genesis version as well -- it's just moved to Tricky 6.

Genesis - Tricky 11 - Let's go to the moon!


30 lemmings
Save 50% (15)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

10 of each skill except bashers

Good: Beautiful level design, nice "long way round" theme with the absence of bashers to prevent the quick solution; several ways to take advantage of the terrain to do a "worker lemming" solution and save 100% without making the level any harder.
Bad: Avoiding colliding with the little "stars" is a bit too nasty for a level of this difficulty.
Better than DOS Tricky 5? Yes, on balance. Tricky 5 is fun to play because I liked getting the lemmings stuck in between the "balls" and getting them out again, but this level is really gorgeous to look at -- great use of the crystal graphics.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #201 on: September 10, 2009, 07:58:33 PM »
I know it's ages yet, but I think Taxing 29 should also be reviewed when we get to that stage. The compression of the level has made quite an impact on the solution. Similarly, if the stats on each level except the number of lemmings is different (Taxing 21, I believe, requires 100% on this version), they should also be looked at. What do you think?

Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry earlier today. I meant Taxing 22, Come On Over to My Place. And yes, I have checked. This version requires 100%. However, the review on the DOS version talked about that. Mayhem 4 also requires 100% on this version and not on DOS. The review earlier stated that the fact you could save 100% was a bad point, but this time, it is enforced.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #202 on: September 10, 2009, 09:49:59 PM »
Better than DOS Tricky 5? Yes, on balance.

I would say no because of a notable backroute. The mine-build-mine-build through the left wall is certainly what I call a backroute. Cut those miners out, and that last level should be more challenging.

Genesis - Tricky 12 - Go out for a walk?


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50% (25)
Release rate: 87
Time: 5 minutes

1 climber, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 5 diggers

Good: Better than "Bitter Lemming" for DOS, since you don't need the floaters, can be challenging about where to dig, a creative final part of the solution, takes a break from all those building levels.
Bad: 5 minutes is too much time for this level; I've done it in just 1 minute.
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Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #203 on: September 10, 2009, 10:35:39 PM »
Oooh, I'll definitely pitch in when we get to Lemmings 2. I'm grabbing screenies of the stages right now.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #204 on: September 11, 2009, 12:47:19 AM »
Genesis - Tricky 13 - Salvage boat


30 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
5 minutes

12 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners

Good: Finishes off the "easy" levels with a 100%-er. Makes you think about how to avoid the crowd getting stuck or splatting while the bridge is being built.
Bad: Too much building. The presence of the second miner suggests that the obvious solution (mine through the worker lemming's bridge, then repair it) was not thought of by the designers.
Better than DOS Tricky 10? Not really, no.

(Fortunately this is the last level for which the level it has to be compared to has a different number; back to normal now.)

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #205 on: September 11, 2009, 11:25:26 AM »
Genesis - Tricky 21 - Don't leave any Lemmings


Lemmings: 50
Save: 25 (50%)
RR: 1
Time: 6 minutes
Skills: 30 bombers/blockers/builders

Good: Bombing upwards through the terrain without making a hole in the floor makes for an interesting challenge. And, thankfully, you don't need to time the bombers at all. Simple and effective design.

Bad: Not much to say here, so I'll nitpick a little. The pink and marble-coloured bricks don't look good together IMHO. The entrance area is a bit cramped too, and the open trapdoor overlaps the terrain, which looks untidy.

Better than DOS Tricky 21 (All the 6's)? Absolutely. There's really no contest here.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #206 on: September 11, 2009, 01:03:51 PM »
Genesis - Tricky 27 - Everyone Turn Left


Lemmings: 60
Save: 60 (100%)
RR: 80
Time: 3 minutes
Skills: 60 miners

Good: The solution to this level presents an interesting idea of using miners to turn around on one-way walls.

Bad: This level is boring. You have to repeat using miners sixty times. There are far too many lemmings to deal with, and your patience is tested rather than your cunning.

Better than DOS Tricky 27 (The Island of the Wicker People)? No chance. Island of the Wicker People at least makes you think. This level is as dull as We All Fall Down.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #207 on: September 11, 2009, 04:58:16 PM »
Genesis - Tricky 29 - Konnichiwa Lemming-san


100 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 77
4 minutes

4 builders, 2 miners

Good: The first, I think, of the type of level the Genesis game is justly famous for -- only a few skills, but they add up to an efficient, effective and well-concealed solution.
Bad: I'm not keen on the Japanese titles, as I said in my review of 24 Fun. I admit it's a bit more excusable when it's clearly being used as a running theme.
Better than DOS Tricky 29? Wipes the floor with it; there's absolutely no comparison.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #208 on: September 11, 2009, 05:18:03 PM »
4 builders, 2 diggers??? (according to Planet Lemmings, but surely this is wrong?)

It surely is wrong. Well spotted. ;) It is, in fact, 4 builders and 2 miners.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #209 on: September 11, 2009, 06:49:41 PM »
Genesis Tricky 30: Don't Follow Me.

Save 10/10, RR 1, 2 minutes.
3 miners

Good: I like the level layout. That's it really.
Bad: This level is insultingly easy for a last Tricky level; there's really no challenge in finding a solution.
Better than Tricky 30 Amiga (The Crankshaft)?: Not even close. That level was an interesting challenge, a good warmup for the types of puzzles in the final two sets. This is just a joke.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #210 on: September 11, 2009, 07:28:14 PM »
Genesis - Taxing 1 - The bridge is breaking down.


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 50
4 minutes

1 climber, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner

Good: Another excellent "few skills" puzzle in the same vein as Tricky 29; indeed, I like this even better as at first sight it looks impossible to do everything with one climber and avoid releasing the crowd too soon.
Bad: Not much! Perhaps just that it shouldn't be the first of a set, as it's going to be tough to get your head round until you've played most or all of Fun and Tricky.
Better than DOS Taxing 1? They're both great levels, but this wins for being so concise and because "If at first you don't succeed" has a rather simple backroute.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #211 on: September 11, 2009, 07:32:01 PM »
And the backroute is... let me have a guess:

Quote from: Hint
Dig the floor and bash under the pillars (Which you can get 100%)
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #212 on: September 11, 2009, 08:27:39 PM »
It certainly is :)

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #213 on: September 11, 2009, 08:46:22 PM »
Genesis - Taxing 2 - Temporary peace


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50 (100%)
RR: 20
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 10 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner

Good: The added steel in this version forces you to find another way around... which soon presents itself if you look closely. (Those bits sticking out of the ceiling weren't there in the other level, were they? Ohh... :D)

Bad: Should have water in the middle part, to be consistent with the rest of the level.

Better than DOS Taxing 2 (Watch out, there's traps about)? Tough one but I'm gonna say yes. The DOS level starts out better, but ends up being too easy because of the excess skills and low % requirement.

Offline Fernito

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #214 on: September 11, 2009, 10:48:13 PM »
Genesis - Taxing 1 - The bridge is breaking down.

Hey, the double flamethrower in this level looks pretty neat! :o Awesome use of terrain pieces!  :thumbsup:
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #215 on: September 12, 2009, 12:41:00 AM »
I'd have to test it, but there is a possibility of a backroute by going under the steel.  This, of course, doesn't have to work, due to the sizes of steel areas.  Maybe you could test it?

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #216 on: September 12, 2009, 12:47:28 AM »
You mean Taxing 2? I considered it, but I didn't make a serious attempt at it. I'll try it now.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #217 on: September 12, 2009, 12:50:29 AM »
Yeah, you can go underneath it, and beat the level that way. But this is not easy at all.

[Edit: A YouTuber called LemmingsMaster did this. The solution he employed is very unorthodox.. but it worked.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGhjGZ61jiE
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #218 on: September 12, 2009, 12:59:09 AM »
Yep, I just found this solution myself. That's unfortunate, this is a good level otherwise... :(

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #219 on: September 12, 2009, 02:20:36 AM »
I won't go  :( over this.  After all this is just an early Taxing level, and the "under the steel" solution is clearly more of a shortcut than a proper backroute--I'd argue that for anyone but a seasoned Lemmings player, it would be a more difficult path to find and take.

That said, it would've been easy to eliminate the shortcut if they just add more steel in the middle that goes all the way down to the bottom.  Perhaps they thought it looks better with less steel added.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #220 on: September 12, 2009, 07:20:30 AM »
You talked so much that I needed to go back a page to see what level I was meant to be reviewing :P

Genesis - Taxing 3 - No choice but to follow them


Lemmings: 80
Save: 80 (100%)
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 10
Skills: 5 builders, 3 bashers.

Good: A rather interesting and creative solution, has a fair bit of water, better than Heaven can wait.
Bad: The diagonal wall looks horrible.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #221 on: September 12, 2009, 08:43:21 AM »
Genesis - Taxing 7 - Jump down!


100 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
6 minutes

5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner

Good: Awesome feeling of "This must be impossible!" until you solve it (which, btw, is also why I personally prefer "Heaven can wait"); another lovely concise solution making the most of a few skills. Title turns out to be a neat hint.
Bad: Basher and miner take a long time to finish (though in fairness, it's hard to see that this could have been avoided).
Better than DOS Taxing 7? Ouch, first time I've had to decide between two levels I really love. On balance I'd say the DOS level wins it.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #222 on: September 12, 2009, 09:12:36 AM »
^ Wrong pic. That's Taxing 27. Although I must say, some your comments seem very appropriate for the pictured level and the skillset given here. :D

(EDIT It's been fixed. Thanks)

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #223 on: September 13, 2009, 03:39:51 AM »
Genesis - Taxing 8 - Lemmings search for treasure.


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50 (100%)
RR: 10
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 1 floater, 8 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger

Good: Clever way of isolating a lemming and releasing the crowd, rather than the standard block and bomb. Two viable routes to the exit.

Bad: Spare builders from taking the lower route mean you can stop the digger and so have full control over the crowd. Without the possibility of spare builders this would be a much better puzzle. Also the one-pixel gap in the pyramid and the slight "misalignment" of the pillars are crucial to the level and effectively hidden unless you go and find out - which I personally hate.

Better than DOS Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery)? Art Gallery wins on decoration alone. There's little else to separate these two.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #224 on: September 13, 2009, 06:24:04 AM »
Genesis Taxing 13 - Walk through here but cautiously


1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 4 blockers, 4 diggers
Save 48/50 (96%)
RR 1, 3 minutes

Good: It has a very neat solution/concept -- since bombing the wall directly blows through the wall, you need to find another way to get across. Or, another place to bomb. I mean, it WAS good enough a level to convert to ONML  ;)

Bad: The solution set makes the answer a bit obvious. I mean, i don't know what skillsets don't open up backroutes, but still... -- also, there's a kind of blah backroute involving a "delayed" climberbomb or sorts.

Better than Upsidedown World?: Yes. UDW has a bunch of weird unfair terrain issues that make the level unfair imo. This level is a solid puzzle that works as planned every time you play it.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #225 on: September 13, 2009, 07:02:06 AM »
Genesis - Taxing 14 - Value each moment


Lemmings: 50
Save: 48 (96%)
Time: 4 minutes
Release rate: 80
Skills: 5 bombers, 2 builders

Good: Much more exciting than the Nessy with old-school bomber timing.

Bad: Too easy for Taxing, it should fit in perfectly with the modified training levels, 5 bombers is too much and is unnecessary.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #226 on: September 13, 2009, 08:18:14 AM »
I'm just bringing back the bad points for Taxing 13

Bad: The one-way wall bug wrecks a seemingly legitimate solution, which spoils this level IMO. Also it seems pointless to start you the wrong way, and then give you a blocker and allow you to lose one lemming.
And it's another long, drawn-out hero level.
And the steel area over the bear trap which is inconsistent with other levels and really gets in the way.
And the masses of roots which make things awkward.
And the excess bombers that you can't use.

On Lemmini, the one way bug is vacant, in other words you can mine right with right one-way arrows. There is another bad thing about this level (Only in this version), you can't climb over the first obstacle, forcing you to bash under it. :(
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #227 on: September 13, 2009, 09:23:28 AM »
I like the next unique level, so I'll be a hero and review it :) I suspect everyone is avoiding this one because they want to do the one after it....

Genesis - Taxing 17 - Lunch time


50 lemmings
Save 80% (40)
Release rate 1
4 minutes

1 climber, 10 floaters, 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger (and not a miner, pace Planet Lemmings)

Good: Another beautiful puzzle level, teaching a device well worth remembering, but one that also feels like a more "standard" Lemmings level with the building and having to avoid lemmings splatting. Better-placed here as a mid-Taxing level than it was in late Crazy.
Bad: Unlike Taxing 13 and 14, looks much worse in the marble style than it did in ONML. Would be more interesting without the floaters. Also, what's with the title?
Better than DOS Taxing 17? That would be "X marks the spot", so it would be hard not to be. Yes, by miles.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #228 on: September 13, 2009, 11:30:18 AM »
Should we have reviewed Taxing 15? The layout of that level, and hence the solution, is very different to the original.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #229 on: September 13, 2009, 11:51:40 AM »
Should we have reviewed Taxing 15? The layout of that level, and hence the solution, is very different to the original.

Sorry, but the special levels have been excluded. I do appreciate the fact that the templates are modified and that there's a different method of solving it, but me, Clam Spammer and Proxima "somehow" agreed to do the exclusive levels. Pooty, you can do Taxing 29 if you want to, but we wouldn't.

I suspect everyone is avoiding this one because they want to do the one after it....

Well, not me, by any case. I would rather solve the level (Which is extremely difficult).
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Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #230 on: September 13, 2009, 06:00:16 PM »
Genesis Taxing 20: Fall and no life

1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
Save 85/85, 3 minutes, RR 90

Good: This is one of the quintessential puzzles on the Genesis version. It's frantic, uses at least two tricks that are quite hard to figure out, and having to extricate yourself from this rather unique obstacle with so few skills seems quite daunting. There's a TON of things to try and the solution is very well hidden. Overall this is a very well-done level.
Bad: Perhaps too hard for its location. I beat part 2 before part 1  :o
Better than Walk the Web Rope?: Substantially. Walk is a fun level to chill out with, but has a lot of walking and a few spots where the puzzle is dealing with odd terrain. This level is a beautiful puzzle and has no real "tough" parts once you know the solution.

EDIT: So I just now, for the first time ever, beat Lemming's Ark. Such a good puzzle (though the precision is kind of bleh) -- what's the backroute in it?
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

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Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #231 on: September 14, 2009, 02:31:58 AM »
I found a thread on 'Lemmings' Ark' on the Lemmings forum 2 incarnations back: http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/forums/?topic=1132693317
Sadly the screenshots there aren't existant anymore, but in essence it's this:
Quote
It is possible to place a miner from the top (1-pixel-precise) so that it barely misses the gap in the middle of the main block and the tunnel ends up being reachable from the main block using a single builder. So you can use a miner to turn the climber around at the top the first time, and then use a digger/builder to setup the turnaround for the normal lemmings.
If I recall correctly, tseug avoided that pixel precision making use of the bumpy end of the bashers mask in the Genesis version: That way it is possible to create a gap in the wall the digger/builder left which makes climbers turn around. Compared to the pixel-precise solution, one miner is saved, you can use both miners to get down to the crowd.

Genesis Taxing 24: Keep all enemies out.

20 lemmings
Save 100% (20)
RR: 1
Time: 3 minutes
Skillset: 2 climbers, 5 builders, 2 diggers

Good: Puzzle makes use of the digger in a non-canonical fashion; double use of climbers, taking away the need for some conventional means for crowd containment; easy to execute; the crystal structure at the right of the exit looks interesting.
Bad: Considering the skillset, the use of the diggers is very obvious; the second ball at the left ontop of another one looks a bit weird.
Better than 'Take a running jump.....'? Yes, even though neither is really difficult for its position, the Genesis level looks a lot nicer and contains less filler, solution-wise.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #232 on: September 14, 2009, 12:26:03 PM »
Hmm, that skill set is definitely wrong. I seem to recall having a climber and a floater as well. I'll see if I can find the correct skill set.

[Edit: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 9 builders and 1 basher. Release rate is 1, and time limit is 3 minutes. Everything else is correct.]
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #233 on: September 14, 2009, 12:44:48 PM »
Thanks. That is, then, the same as the corresponding Crazy level but with an extra builder to get past the trap. I'll write a new review of the level and delete the old one as that completely changes what I wanted to say :)

Genesis - Taxing 25 - Watch right and left!


80 lemmings
Save 98% (79)
Release rate 1
3 minutes

1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 9 builders, 1 basher

Good: A gorgeous puzzle that looks impossible for a long time and then is very satisfying when you figure it out. A nice mixture of Genesis cunning and traditional Lemmings puzzle-elements (such as separating one lemming to get over the right-hand water).
Bad: Awful and dull title, although at least having the right skill set I can see how it relates to the level. The placement of the trap, slightly overlapping the rock behind it but without being attached to it, just looks weird.
Better than DOS Taxing 25? Wow, what a joke. We're comparing one of the best levels in the game to one of the worst.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #234 on: September 15, 2009, 08:03:47 AM »

Genesis - Taxing 27 - Watch your fingertip!


Lemmings: 50
Save 98% (49)
Release rate: 1
Time: 4 minutes

Skills: 1 blocker, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 1 miner

Good: A big sheer drop which forces you to do something, another well intended solution. Better than "Call in the bomb squad".
Bad: The bridge is a bit too long and it's unnecessary, 4 minutes is a little bit too much time.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #235 on: September 18, 2009, 03:43:51 PM »
Argh! this is falling off the first page, I'm bringing this back to the top.

Genesis - Taxing 28 - Watch right or left!


Lemmings: 30
Save 93% (28)
Release rate: 50
Time: 5 minutes

Skills: 2 bombers, 13 builders, 3 miners

Good: Nice symmetrical level which fits the title, interesting solution.
Bad: 5 minutes for this level is too much time, could make the floor smaller, One way arrows on the top platform are unnecessary and they look unfinished. Possibly too many builders.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #236 on: September 18, 2009, 04:10:54 PM »
Well, it seems Planet Lemmings doesn't have the correct stats for Taxing 29 either, so let's omit it. There's not really much to say about it -- it's much better than DOS Taxing 29 but still way too easy for its position (something, by the way, you could have said about Taxing 28 too).

Genesis - Mayhem 1 - Let's get together


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 60
2 minutes

2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger

Good: A beautiful puzzle with a very well-concealed solution. No leftover skills for crowd control means you have to find a way to make maximally efficient use of what you've got. Lovely atmospheric use of decorative terrain.
Bad: Not much!
Better than DOS Mayhem 1? Wow, this is hard to call, as both are among my top favourite levels. I'll say this one is better as the right-hand part of Steel Works gets tiring when you know how to do it and are just trying out some new challenge where, nearly always, only the way of doing the left will be different.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #237 on: September 18, 2009, 06:54:10 PM »
Genesis Mayhem 6 - Over the Wall

2 blockers, 2 bombers, 3 builders, 5 bashers (stats on PL are wrong)
Save 47/50 (94%), RR 20, 5 minutes

Good: Another nice puzzle level which forces you to do a lot with few skills. The route I found for this uses a pretty cooler bomber trick. There's likely a few possible routes but all of them are well hidden.
Bad: The terrain makes some of the building in this level harder than it should be (the main reason I almost never use the dirt set for my custom levels).
Better than One Way or Another?: This is close. I like DOS Mayhem 6 for the use of skills for crowd control and the open endedness of the level design, but this is a clever puzzle. I honestly can't pick one of these two.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #238 on: September 18, 2009, 08:28:38 PM »
I much prefer "One way or another", Genesis Mayhem 6 always struck me as too easy.

Genesis - Mayhem 9 - Twins


2 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 30
2 minutes

7 builders, 3 bashers

Good: An elegant level with just two lemmings, so instead of normal crowd control you have to think about delaying one lemming so the other can get ahead -- or making them go different routes.
Bad: A lot of potential in this idea goes unused because there are too many routes that work and it isn't too hard to find one.
Better than DOS Mayhem 9? Nah, I love "Curse of the Pharaohs" and was really pleased with myself when I finally beat it (the last of the string of levels, Mayhem 2-9, that I beat in one night!)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #239 on: September 19, 2009, 08:41:32 PM »
Genesis - Mayhem 10 - Dangerous balcony


Lemmings: 80
Save 100%
Release rate: 99
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 1 climber, 10 builders, 2 diggers

Good: Pretty challenging with a good intended solution, Nice scenery, slightly better than the DOS version (still not sure about it though)
Bad: A few backroutes are mentioned, one which doesn't use the climber (I think), why 2 entrances?
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #240 on: September 19, 2009, 11:59:13 PM »
Genesis - Mayhem 14 - Climb and fall. Fall and climb.


50 lemmings
Save 84% (42)
Release rate 1
2 minutes

4 builders, 1 basher

Good: Interesting sequel to "Don't follow me" with different skills to force precision in a few more ways than just judging the safe fall distance correctly.
Bad: It's a precision-placement level. Once you've done it once, it's irritating doing it again to reach later levels, and there's almost no puzzle element to it.
Better than DOS Mayhem 14? No kidding, "Pea Soup" was my candidate for the single worst Lemmings level ever.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #241 on: September 20, 2009, 05:16:16 AM »
Genesis - Mayhem 15 - Two ponds


60 lemmings
Save 60 (100%)
Release rate 30
6 minutes

1 bomber, 16 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner

Good: A couple of difficult elements, and just a touch of multitasking. Good use of traps to make the level more difficult (rather than just more annoying, as traps often do).
Bad: In the end it reduces to the "long bridge plus safety net", which appears to be prevalent in this version of the game. It would be nice to have something different.
Better than DOS Mayhem 15 (The Fast Food Kitchen)? Ask me about the Amiga version, which actually forces multitasking and accuracy, and I'll say no. But is it better than the lame DOS version? I'd say yes.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #242 on: September 20, 2009, 07:48:17 AM »
Genesis - Mayhem 18 - Two different worlds

Lemmings: 50
49 to be saved (98%)
Time: 7 minutes
Release rate: 1

Skills: 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger (I think).

Good: Good name for a title, a nice and challenging Mayhem level plus a trap to make this more difficult.
Bad: Too much time (I did it in 4 minutes), the DOS level is better, as it has more entrances, more skills and more steel to tax your brain.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #243 on: September 20, 2009, 03:15:16 PM »
Genesis - Mayhem 23 - A group of entrances


50 lemmings
Save 96% (48)
Release rate 20
5 minutes

3 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 6 builders, 4 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: Two neat miniature puzzles, linked by the clever idea of using one group of lemmings to release the other. Requires some accuracy to make the most of the given skills.
Bad: The wrong way round with its own repeat! At that, both versions are too easy for late Mayhem.
Better than DOS Mayhem 23? Yes, by miles. It lacks the tediousness of a long build followed by a long bash followed by a long walk.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #244 on: September 20, 2009, 03:46:36 PM »
Genesis - Mayhem 26 - Lemming eater


50 lemmings
100% to be saved
Release rate: 50
Time: 4 minutes

1 floater, 5 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: Good solution and much more thought provoking than the DOS version, a nice colourful approach of a level, with pillar cutting, water, steel and planks of wood.
Bad: The one way block is not much use, a hidden trap forces you to have a second go. The pillar on the left looks a bit messy.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #245 on: September 24, 2009, 06:27:42 AM »
I'm still obeying Dullstar's rule here.

Genesis - Mayhem 28 Leftovers are not always a waste


Lemmings: 50
88% to be saved
Release rate: 1
Time: 3 minutes

Skills: 1 bomber, 5 builders, 3 diggers

Good: Lots of steel to remove backroutes, good position for Mayhem.
Bad: Too much steel and too many traps make the level plain and bland, some hidden traps which people hate. I like "Mind the step" better, because it's a good clean challenge for a single lemming compared to this one.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #246 on: September 24, 2009, 07:08:44 AM »
Genesis - Mayhem 29 - No hurry, Relax.


100 lemmings
Save 83 (83%)
Release rate 10
5 minutes

1 climber, 1 floater, 4 builders, 8 bashers

Good: Visually imposing with the large empty region below the trapdoor. Many places where it looks like you could use the bashers to get down from the top corner, but (apparently) only one way that actually works - and finding this is not simple to do. Definitely a worthy challenge for this stage of the game. Plus I just noticed the "alternate route" that turns out to be too slow to reach the falling lemmings.

Bad: Some parts of the terrain look messy, especially the diagonal cut out of the pillar. Nothing much else to say here, really.

Better than DOS Mayhem 29 (Save me)? Yikes, that's tough, but I'll have to go with the original. "Save me" captures the end-of-game "final boss" feeling better, IMHO, and looks much nicer. (I know it's not really the final boss, but it looks very much like it could have been.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #247 on: September 24, 2009, 12:03:41 PM »
Here's the link to Planet Lemmings again, to save everyone having to look five pages back as we move on to the Present levels:
http://www.deveria.com/alexis/lemmings/lemmings/gen/gencodes.html

Genesis - Mayhem 30 - Lemmings' Ark


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 40
4 minutes

3 climbers, 4 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners, 1 digger

Good: A neat little puzzle making economical use of skills. Once you've got over the feeling of "I have to get from... here... to there?" it's clear where to use the skills but less obvious what order to do everything in so that no surplus skills (which you don't have) are needed to get lemmings facing the right way for their tasks.
Bad: Ugly layout, with just one type of block and the large one-way walls. The final build to the exit requires annoying precision.
Better than DOS Mayhem 30? No way.

Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #248 on: September 24, 2009, 12:25:29 PM »
o_O I definately disagree with you on that one. DOS Mayhem 30 is just an annoying worker lemming level with a lot of building, Lemmings Ark is actually a fairly clever puzzle.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #249 on: September 24, 2009, 12:47:48 PM »
It's perhaps not entirely fair to compare the two, since part of what makes "Rendezvous at the Mountain" so good is its appropriateness for the last level of the game, while "Lemmings' Ark" doesn't have to (and doesn't try to) fulfil that role. I already reviewed Rendezvous here so I shan't repeat myself; I think what lets Lemmings' Ark down in my view is the relative obviousness of the moves involved, it's just not clear how to put them together. (With so few builders, there is no way to get the lemmings up so high other than reverse mining; it's immediately obvious where all the builders are used, and then it's not so hard to see how to use the remaining skills.)

Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #250 on: September 24, 2009, 01:13:04 PM »
o_O
How is a long, easy builder-abuse level a good final level? Save Me would've been great as a final level, Rendezvous at the Mountain is not.

Anyway, I guess Sega Master System is next?

The levels that I think would need to be done (due to having a significant enough difference from the originals, if not being entirely new):

Fun 11 (maybe)
Fun 20
Fun 22
Fun 26
Tricky 14
Tricky 19 (maybe)
Tricky 21 (maybe)
Tricky 25
Taxing 15
Taxing 21
Taxing 24 (maybe)
Taxing 30
Mayhem 9
Mayhem 12
Mayhem 13
Mayhem 17
Mayhem 18
Mayhem 21 (this one is difficult because it's not that different, but it's in a completely different position)
Mayhem 22
Mayhem 29

What do you guys think about Fun 11, Tricky 19, Tricky 21, Taxing 24 and Mayhem 21?

Images available here: http://www.smspower.org/maxim/Maps/Lemmings (Note that Mayhem 17 map is WRONG, it shows the Tricky 7 / Taxing 11 map. The correct map to use is the Tricky 12 one.)

EDIT: Forgot about Present and Sunsoft. >_> Still, at least the list's here for when we get up to SMS.
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Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #251 on: September 24, 2009, 01:19:28 PM »
o_O I definately disagree with you on that one. DOS Mayhem 30 is just an annoying worker lemming level with a lot of building, Lemmings Ark is actually a fairly clever puzzle.
Haha, same here, my judgement would be equally as clear as Proxima's, just in favour of the other level.

Actually, I wouldn't even say that the level is inappropriate as a 'final' level (even though Present and Sunsoft follow): If you look at the first and last (and some extend also penultimate) level of Mayhem in both versions, you sort of see how they epitomize the emphasis of the respective version: while the Genesis focuses on skill-efficient puzzles, the DOS version focuses on hero-levels with lots of building.
So both of the final Mayhem levels actually fit for their respective version.

@Proxima: Though I'm surprised you found Lemmings' Ark solution pretty obvious: interestingly enough to me it was the toughest level to figure out in the entirety of Lemmings DOS/Genesis and ONML, while on the other hand I had no problems solving levels like "Fall and No Life (Part Two)" which, if I remember correctly, took you four years?

I guess my view on Lemmings' Ark is somewhat biased by the fact that it took me so long to figure...and also because I mostly just see the puzzle aspect of levels.

Anyway, on to Present:

Genesis - Present 1 - Natural Life


50 lemmings
Save 49 (98%)
Release Rate: 10
5 minutes

20 of everything

Good: Well, at least it's somewhat short; has a variety of possible solutions...
Bad: ...though it's trivial to find one, as you get way too many skills which takes quite some potential out of the level; also, what about that hidden trap? Might punish the player if he decides to come up with a non-conventional solution, which should actually be encouraged.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #252 on: September 24, 2009, 01:32:18 PM »
Never knew there was a hidden trap on that level. Where is it?

And no, "Fall and no life 2" didn't take me four years, don't know where you got that from :P I only played the Genesis version for the first time fairly recently, by which time my Lemmings skills had improved substantially through training on Insane Steve's Cheapo levels, and I beat all 180 levels in a fairly short time (except for needing a hint on "Just a Minute" -- yes, the first one! -- because I couldn't get over the fact that the solution I was used to from the Mac version didn't work).

Present 2 - Don't leave my Lemmings.


50 lemmings
Save 80% (40)
Release rate 10
3 minutes

1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher

Good: A good level to introduce the concept of dealing without 20 of everything. Would have been a good addition to the level set, were it placed at around Tricky 16 instead of three bomber-timing levels in a row.
Bad: Coming after the Mayhem levels as it does, it's just a boring filler level. Also, the title is too similar to an earlier level, "Don't leave any lemmings".

Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #253 on: September 24, 2009, 01:58:40 PM »
Ah sorry, appears that my memory didn't serve me right...must have been either someone else, or some other level. Or both?
Let me take another guess, 'Steel Mines of Kessel' on the Mac took you long?
And re-reading the old review topic, it seems that someone (an infrequent poster) got stuck in FANL for 8 years. ;)

The hidden trap is, according to Lemmix, in the corner next to that bone.

Thought I could review 'Anxiety' now, but that's Sunsoft 3, not Present...

Present 3 - Let me get out of here!


50 lemmings
Save 50 (100%)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

10 of everything

Good: The simplistic yet varied (in regards to terrain types) design is actually pretty interesting, also the broken chain.
There's at least a shortcut along the top, but I don't really know whether that's good or bad.
Bad: Not really interesting solution-wise, again you get enough skills to not require you to think much about the level (apart from getting 100%). The gap in the chain might make things somewhat annoying unless you send out a single lemming first to close it.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #254 on: September 26, 2009, 05:06:00 AM »
Present 4 - Lemmings standing on the earth


80 lemmings
Save 72 (90%)
Release rate 10
5 minutes
10 of each skill

Good: Many possible paths to the exit, some more viable than others, but no obvious way. Unless you look closely, that is.

Bad: Too many traps make this level rather messy. The trap at the bottom left especially looks bad, and serves no purpose anyway. The level looks much more difficult than it actually is, which is a bit of a let-down.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #255 on: September 26, 2009, 06:39:31 AM »
Maybe another bad thing about it is the excessive time. It's somehow a nice challenge trying to do it in 2 minutes.

Present 5 - Darkness of the royal family


50 lemmings
45 to be saved (90%)
Release rate 50
Time: 3 minutes
10 builders, 5 of the rest.

Good: A nice challenging time limit, gaps in the terrain makes the level different compared to others. Adds steel to remove an obvious solution.
Bad: Not sure what make it bad about this level, but if there was, there's isn't much into this level.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #256 on: September 26, 2009, 11:59:24 AM »
No, I think considering how easy the other early Present levels are, I don't think 4 is out of place, and doing it in two minutes is best left as a challenge rather than being required.

Genesis - Present 6 - No time for a detour


100 lemmings
Save 98%
Release rate 99
1 minute

1 of each skill

Good: Excellent puzzle idea that instantly makes it stand out from the crowd, and the "one of each skill" theme makes a welcome reappearance.
Bad: Should have required 100%, otherwise it's too easy.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #257 on: September 26, 2009, 12:19:20 PM »
Genesis - Present 7 - Everyone Turn Left!

100 lemmings
99% to be saved
Release Rate 99
1 minute

1 blocker

Good: So, you take a quick glance at this level, and scoff "This is too easy". Then you try, you fail, and it makes you feel really silly. This level teaches you an important lesson about deploying blockers against a 99 release rate.

Bad: This level won't take long to beat. The level name has been used before, as early as Tricky 27.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #258 on: September 26, 2009, 01:33:14 PM »

Genesis - Present 8 - Libra (Part Two)


Number of lemmings: 50
100% to be saved
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 30

Skills: 3 bashers, 1 digger

Good: Slightly harder than the last one, the scenery shows the correct symbol for the title.
Bad: Far far easier than the original level, and also, it's easy compared to Level 6.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #259 on: September 26, 2009, 02:19:14 PM »
Bad: Far far easier than the original level

Another problem with it is that the "original" level is Sunsoft 6 -- they forgot to change which one was called "Part 2" when they switched Present and Sunsoft!

Genesis - Present 9 - Fix the road, quick!


50 lemmings
Save 88% (44)
Release rate 50
5 minutes

15 builders, 1 digger

Good: Finally, a tricky level! A couple of possible routes that it's not easy to decide between, and a good bit of multitasking and precision required (especially in the 100% solution).
Bad: A huge step up in difficulty, and then the next five are all easy again :(

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #260 on: September 27, 2009, 07:49:39 AM »
Genesis - Present 10 - Where are you heading?


Number of lemmings: 80
90% to be saved (72)
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 50

Skills: 20 bashers

Good: Don't know :(
Bad: Only bashers on crystal style, which is an absolute derivative action done in Fun 5 and Mayhem 4. No real challenge, because it's just boring timing, level works with saving 100% as well, getting 100% is a better challenge compared to losing a few.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #261 on: September 27, 2009, 08:46:45 AM »
^ That level is a repeat, so it doesn't get its own pic on the host site. You need to change the image URL from "pres10" to "tri12".

No such problems for the next level...

Genesis - Present 11 - Field athletics


Lemmings: 80
Save: 80 (100%)
RR: 1
Time: 4 minutes
Skills: 20 builders, 1 basher

Good: Some variety in solution methods - fall in the pit and build out, or build over without letting any lemmings fall, and a couple of ways to isolate the final builder (with or without using the basher). The map looks nice, with some good decorative terrain. Having a basher instead of a digger (as you get in "24 hour Lemathon" - which, by the way, is the next ONML level to be reviewed ;)) prevents an easy solution by digging a pit at the start.

Bad: Building out of the pit is a time-consuming task, as is waiting for 80 lemmings to exit (mostly in a RR99 line).

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #262 on: September 27, 2009, 10:09:29 AM »
Genesis - Present 12 - Balance Beam


Lemmings: 50
100% to be saved
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 10
Skills: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

Good: A nice challenge on a short level, 3 minutes is perfectly ideal for this level.
Bad: A rather prominent looking backroute is added to the level, the one which saves 2 builders.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #263 on: September 27, 2009, 06:46:54 PM »
Maybe another bad thing about it is the excessive time. It's somehow a nice challenge trying to do it in 2 minutes.

Present 5 - Darkness of the royal family


50 lemmings
45 to be saved (90%)
Release rate 50
Time: 3 minutes
10 builders, 5 of the rest.

Good: A nice challenging time limit, gaps in the terrain makes the level different compared to others. Adds steel to remove an obvious solution.
Bad: Not sure what make it bad about this level, but if there was, there's isn't much into this level.

It needed more steel though.  I found a one skill solution.  I'll post a "Challenge Solutions" thread and give details about how to do it.  It will, however, be labeled as an "untested challenge".

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #264 on: September 27, 2009, 07:23:24 PM »
It needed more steel though.  I found a one skill solution.  I'll post a "Challenge Solutions" thread and give details about how to do it.  It will, however, be labeled as an "untested challenge".

I won't make a controversy about steel, but still, it's just enough to remove an obvious solution.
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Offline Pooty

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #265 on: September 27, 2009, 07:44:09 PM »
It needed more steel though.  I found a one skill solution.  I'll post a "Challenge Solutions" thread and give details about how to do it.  It will, however, be labeled as an "untested challenge".

If the idea is to bash underneath the steel, it doesn't work. There are gaps in the terrain that will prevent this. There's one just before the steel area that will send lemmings falling to their doom, and there's another two on the ramp next to the exit.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #266 on: September 29, 2009, 08:39:41 PM »
Genesis - Present 13 - Watch your step (Part two).


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50 (100%)
RR: 1
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 10 builders, 2 basher

Good: Forces you to be efficient with the use of the bashers. Offers some routes that don't work, and help (if only a little) to hide the actual solution.

Bad: Some visually unappealing terrain, in particular the small steps over the water and the steel on the right. The drop before the exit is only just above the splat height, which means this is a retry waiting to happen.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #267 on: September 30, 2009, 07:26:19 AM »
Genesis - Present 14 - Like an overflowing wave


Lemmings: 50
Save: 100%
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 99
Skills: 5 builders, 5 bashers

Good: Good use of pillar cutting.
Bad: A lot to say here: Unappealing level design, especially the planks of wood which have no ends to it, release rate of 99 gives you immediate frustration and more of a chance of building the wrong way, too much walking to the exit which does not challenge the timer, pretty dark out in the open (Dark levels creep me out).
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #268 on: September 30, 2009, 12:29:32 PM »
C'mon, own up, who deleted a post somewhere in the first 17 pages of the thread, and was the motivation to make the link to Planet Lemmings harder to find?

Genesis - Present 15 - Evil whisper


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
5 minutes

2 builders, 1 basher, 3 miners, 1 digger

Good: Finally we get to the difficult puzzles we've been waiting for in this category! A number of obstacles to get past, and it looks impossible to get through them all and maintain crowd control with the given skills. A very satisfying level to solve (and the terrain looks gorgeous too, especially the arch on the left).
Bad: Direct. Drop. Backroute.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #269 on: September 30, 2009, 03:23:29 PM »
C'mon, own up, who deleted a post somewhere in the first 17 pages of the thread, and was the motivation to make the link to Planet Lemmings harder to find?

Not sure about that. Anyway, carrying on with the reviews

Genesis - Present 16 - A trap is a trap


Lemmings: 100
10% to be saved
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 80

Skills: 7 bombers, 7 blockers, 5 builders

Good: Impossible to build straight away, lots of exits and of course, lots of traps. Not a bad intended solution with the requirement of more than one worker...
Bad: ...but it's time consuming with blockers AND bombers, steel frame looks boring.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

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Lix: #2  #7
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #270 on: September 30, 2009, 04:36:32 PM »
I'm very curious now, what do you think the intended solution to that level was? The way I always did it (I never even noticed the side exits) was to time bombers to explode just after falling off the edge so the wall was eroded enough that they could survive the drop.

Present 17 - Electric circuit


100 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 99
4 minutes

5 bombers, 3 builders, 1 basher, 3 diggers

Good: Absolutely unique idea of using the diagonally intersecting pieces for a more interesting construction than the usual "mesh" as seen on Fun 5. Lots of possible routes to explore and evaluate, and another level where this is achieved with remarkably few skills (if we ignore the unusable bombers).
Bad: Could have been more interesting with a different skill set; the builder makes it a bit too easy to separate one lemming from the crowd.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #271 on: September 30, 2009, 07:01:45 PM »
I'm very curious now, what do you think the intended solution to that level was? The way I always did it (I never even noticed the side exits) was to time bombers to explode just after falling off the edge so the wall was eroded enough that they could survive the drop.

Haven't tested anything, but at a glance, seems like a similar approach would also work for the side exits (bombers to lower the edge so you can build to either side exit).  Seems to me the only intention is to make the level looks more intimidating than it actually is, and that you could actually pick any one of the exits.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #272 on: October 01, 2009, 06:27:49 PM »
I'm very curious now, what do you think the intended solution to that level was?

Well, that's interesting. :) I solved this level by bombing down the side pillar so that it was low enough to build a stairway to the exit. So, it is hard to call.

Genesis - Present 18 - King of lemmings


Lemmings: 80
100% to be saved
Time: 6 minutes
Release rate: 1

Skills: 12 builders, 10 bashers

Good: Tagged as my second favourite Level 18, uses the two skills to the best effect. Using two worker lemmings rather than one without blockers really changes the outcome of the solution. Nice colourful scenery.
Bad: I still think the time limit is excessive (I keep mentioning it too much, because I like racing against the clock).
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #273 on: October 01, 2009, 06:33:45 PM »
Genesis - Present 19 - Acrophobia


100 lemmings
Save 99%
Release rate 1
3 minutes

2 bombers, 8 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: Could have been a very interesting puzzle; not at all obvious how to isolate one lemming to build over the water with so few digging skills, no blockers and 99% required.
Bad: Worst direct drop backroute on the game -- it not only spoils the level but completely negates its concept. Also, the solid walls at the sides are rather ugly.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #274 on: October 02, 2009, 10:06:06 AM »
Genesis - Present 20 - Lemmings-preying iron plate


Lemmings: 100
Save: 80 (80%)
RR: 50
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 3 builders, 12 bashers, 5 diggers

Good: No floater and less builders than the other version means you'll likely have to find a new solution. Efficient use of builders becomes quite important.

Bad: That one-way wall was largely useless before - now it's totally redundant. Cutting back the required percentage (which was 100% on the earlier version) reduces the challenge somewhat.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #275 on: October 02, 2009, 04:02:02 PM »
Genesis - Present 21 - Use your brain better


Lemmings: 50
100% to be saved
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 1
Skills: 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner

Good: Level doesn't work with just the basher.
Bad: This level is a joke. Not exciting with just four skills. Even three minutes is too much for the average solver.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

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Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #276 on: October 03, 2009, 02:33:27 AM »
Are you kidding me?  *build, bash, done.  May need second builder, I don't know.*

By the way, while I don't like EXCESSIVE time limits, I don't like racing against the clock, either.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #277 on: October 04, 2009, 04:38:20 PM »
Genesis - Present 22 - None Title


Lemmings: 50
80% to be saved (40)
Time: 2 minutes
Release rate: 1
Skills: 7 builders, 3 bashers

Good: Puts a whole bunch of lemmings into one level this time. The timer is challenging.
Bad: I just generally don't like it too much. The solution spoils the nice looking two lemming solution. I thought of a title. It's "Take one road or the other".
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

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Lix: #2  #7
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #278 on: October 04, 2009, 05:07:51 PM »
Genesis - Present 23 - Precarious oasis


50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 50
5 minutes

1 floater, 4 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners

Good: I suppose it's one of the better level titles. At least, it's poetic, even if it's not very suited to its level.
Bad: Present 23? Come on, this is utterly trivial. This should have been Tricky 10 instead of the 10-of-all-skills version, because it's no harder.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #279 on: October 04, 2009, 08:06:48 PM »
Wow, it appears that Present was poorly put together!

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #280 on: October 04, 2009, 08:24:16 PM »
Well, every set has its share of ridiculously easy levels; even Sunsoft has "Doomsday" and "Two heads are better". Perhaps the best put together set on any Lemmings game is Tame, because all its levels really are tame!  :P

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #281 on: October 12, 2009, 12:17:35 PM »
Genesis - Present 24 - Everyone's a hard nut.


3 lemmings
Save 3 (100%)
Release rate 1
3 minutes

1 climber, 3 bombers, 6 builders, 4 bashers, 1 miner, 3 diggers

Good: Contains a few interesting solution elements, like capturing the third lemmings above the water using two builders; at first glance it looks like it might have a pretty complex solution.
Bad: But the surplus of skills makes it a very generic level, you can be wasteful and still beat the level. Not sure how many skills were intended for getting through that messy construction near the exit, but it's trivial to separate a lemming to clear the path before the others get there to take one of the routes into the trap, and even if it wasn't, you could still use builders and the additional terrain removing skills.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #282 on: October 18, 2009, 06:43:26 PM »
Genesis - Present 25 - Underground City

60 Lemmings
Save 60 (100%)
7 Builders, 2 miners, 2 bashers

Good:  It looks nice.
Bad:  A lemmings level is split into two parts:  figuring out how to do it, and then doing it.  Doing it should be easy, but figuring it out should be the difficult part, except on levels that are supposed to be easy.  This level takes a whole of 5 seconds to figure out, but you can spend hours trying to do it.  I didn't feel like spending all that time, so I gave up.  Also, the fact taht there is no abort level quickly control on the Genesis version is annoying, because, while 5-7 seconds is not a long time, on a level like this it adds up.

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #283 on: November 20, 2009, 07:51:50 AM »
*bump*

Genesis - Present 26 - Pitfall


Lemmings: 50
Save: 50 (100%)
RR: 20
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 6 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger

Good: Unique visual design with the snakes made from grey circles. Looks simple, but tricky to solve.
Bad: A little short on decoration. Terrain around the exit looks messy, and the hole at the lower left isn't good either. 5 minute timer isn't necessary on such a short level.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #284 on: November 20, 2009, 05:53:09 PM »
Genesis - Present 27 - Try anything once


Lemmings: 50
Save: 49 (98%)
Time: 7 minutes
Release rate: 60
Skills: 1 climber, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 14 builders, 4 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger.

Good: Can't think of anything.
Bad: Level suffers a tremendous backroute, One way arrows looks worse than them of Tricky 27, far too much time.
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Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #285 on: November 21, 2009, 12:22:34 AM »
Genesis - Present 28 - Which one are you trying to get?


Lemmings: 30
Save: 30 (100%)
Time: 4 minutes
Release rate: 99
Skills: 1 climber, 10 floaters, 2 bombers, 1 blocker, 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 3 digger.

Good: You're directly positioned above the exits, yet you can't just directly go down. I remember this level as pretty difficult, though when I look at it now, I see a wide variety of solutions. Guess that's a good point though. The fall height as well as the restraint on vertical terrain removal skills makes requires you to go for a non-obvious solution...
Bad: ...until you notice the floaters, which somewhat simplify matters without need for that. Guess being that late in the set, the difficulty would be more appropriate if the floaters were removed.

EDIT: typo removed.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #286 on: November 21, 2009, 01:20:37 AM »
You've made a typo; that one's Present 28.

Genesis - Present 29 - Private room available


20 lemmings
Save 100%
5 minutes
Release rate 1

1 bomber, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 40 diggers

Good: Unique solution concept, well carried out in a very pretty-looking level. Title is a good clue to the solution.
Bad: With so many diggers and not much else, the trick is not hard to figure, and somewhat tedious to carry out. I don't feel it merits a position this late in the set.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #287 on: January 08, 2011, 01:15:22 PM »
Bump.

Genesis - Present 30 - Final impediment


Number of lemmings: 100
Save 100% (100/100)
Skills: 0/1/0/1/15/5/1/2
Time: 4:00
Release rate: 1

Good: A daunting looking final level. A nice way to block a lemming at the lower right corner.
Bad: Theres a huge backroute, overlapping steel blocks look messy, way to easy for the final level and there's to much building.

3.5/10 not that good really.

Offline Clam

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #288 on: January 09, 2011, 09:46:07 AM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 1 - Rules to fall


Lemmings: 20
Save: 10 (50%)
RR: 30
Time: 1 minute
Skills: 20 floaters, 1 digger

Good: Neat symmetric design, good decoration.
Bad: Nothing to the solution at all. (Genesis doesn't have direct drop does it? If so then :o)

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #289 on: January 09, 2011, 10:41:48 AM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 2 - Inside the bone

Number of lemmings: 50
Save 100% (50/50)
Skills: 0/0/0/0/13/2/0/0
Time: 5:00
Release rate: 1

Good: Relaxing to play and mostly looks nice. Not just a boring hero lemming level.
Bad: A bit easy for sunsoft really. The two overlapping signs in the center look a bit messy too.

Offline Luis

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #290 on: November 09, 2011, 10:00:13 PM »
After reading the bad about the levels, it made me think what if they made a difficulty in the option that makes all levels have the fewest number of skills as possible? I know you guys are already doing that, but not everyone plays the game for that. If this option was in the real game, it would have encourage people to try that challenge out. I also noticed after reading the bad is that some levels have too many useless skills that you can beat without using it. That's an unanswered mystery, on why they gave you too many skills. I don't know if the developers had the time to look deep into the level and discover everything about it. This goes in the same category as gamers finding glitches that the developers didn't know about.
Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #291 on: November 12, 2011, 11:34:07 AM »
Keep in mind that the point of this review game/topic is that you have to say something good and something bad about the level you're reviewing.  So the bad can sometimes be more nitpicky and harsher than the overall level impression really is.

The difficulty mode idea is definitely a good idea and can help with replayability, although to some extent they already did that in the original game when they repeated levels from easier ratings in harder ratings.  A further extension of this (though obviously not ready for the technologies of that era) would be the rankings and achievements system you see nowadays in many games.

"too many useless skills" just tends to be the laziest "bad" one can give to a level. ;P In practice unless it totally made the level trivial for its rating (which happens sometimes), extra skills aren't all that bad.  Sometimes it can even spice things up by giving you "red herrings" distracting you from divining the true solution to the level.

Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #292 on: November 12, 2011, 12:00:16 PM »
Bad: Nothing to the solution at all. (Genesis doesn't have direct drop does it? If so then :o)
it totally does and all...  :XD:

Offline DoubleU

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #293 on: November 16, 2011, 10:30:30 PM »
Sensei's Library and TV Tropes are wikis that allow for non-encyclopedic content in their articles; is Lemmings Wiki the same?  I ask because I disagree with many of these reviews, especially the cons, and want to add in my own two cents and then some, and I was thinking that the Lemmings Wiki, hosted as it is by Wikia, might be the place to do that.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #294 on: November 16, 2011, 11:43:09 PM »
The wiki isn't really being worked on much.  We don't have any strong visions right now for what goes into the wiki, but personally I'm not really in favor of non-encyclopedic content, for the same reason that Wikipedia don't hosts reviews of TV episodes or movies by random users.  But feel free to start your own wiki or website if you feel strongly about it.

Keep in mind that these sort of review topic is more of a game, and of course everyone is going to have their own opinions about levels and such.  No one is pretending that the reviews are authoritative or even representative in any manner.

Offline Luis

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #295 on: November 26, 2011, 06:50:42 PM »
Is there another version of this level?
 

In the Planet Lemmings site, that level is placed as Mayhem 19, but when I Google that level, it gives me that level from the original game.


I see you guys skipped Mayhem 19, since it's a level from the first Lemmings, so that means it is a mistake that site. There's another mistake in the Planet Lemmings site where they have 1 digger in "Fix the road quick!".
Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #296 on: November 27, 2011, 02:02:39 AM »
Planet Lemmings' list doesn't take into account the fact that some of the original Tricky levels were kept but renumbered. So Mayhem 19 is not changed, but Tricky 11 is; the level "Lemmings in the attic" was just moved to earlier in the set. Mayhem 19's thumbnail still points to Tricky 11, though, which is where the problem arises. Take a look at my spreadsheet – I have actually attempted to go through the Genesis with a fine-tooth comb to get all the stats right, and the repeated levels are recorded in the comments column on the right.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/lem/Lemmings%20Levels.xls

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #297 on: December 04, 2011, 11:46:34 AM »
Sensei's Library and TV Tropes are wikis that allow for non-encyclopedic content in their articles; is Lemmings Wiki the same?  I ask because I disagree with many of these reviews, especially the cons, and want to add in my own two cents and then some, and I was thinking that the Lemmings Wiki, hosted as it is by Wikia, might be the place to do that.

Having been doing some recent wiki editing, it occurred to me that one can perhaps use the Talk (aka Discussion) pages associated with the main wiki page for a level to post nonfactual things like personal reviews for the levels, and you can even go into spirited discussions and arguments in there if you like (within constraints of civility etc.).  But I'm really against having that sort of stuff on the main page itself.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #298 on: January 31, 2012, 09:20:58 PM »
Hey, now that Lix has revived the level of forum activity somewhat, shall we see if we can continue this review game, at least to the end of the Genesis levels? (Earlier in the thread, there were plans to do SMS next, but I don't know how many of the current forum-users have played that version....)

Genesis - Sunsoft 3 - Anxiety


60 lemmings
Save 100%
RR 30
5 minutes

5 builders, 4 miners

Good: Nice puzzle, to separate one worker lemming with very limited skills; there are in fact a choice of solutions. Excellent title, and beautiful use of the graphics set, for instance the tapered pillars at the top, and the stairs on the big block.
Bad: The hangman trap at the bottom is pointless? That's about the only bad thing I can find on this level.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #299 on: February 01, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »
I don't meant to go off topic but I couldn't see starting a new topic just for a small question. I never heard of the Sega Genesis version of Lemmings until this site. How in the heck do you move a cursor around the screen with the Genesis game controller (or any other controller for that matter?) I'd image the controls must be stiff and slow for Lemmings.

Were these levels released solely on the Sega Genesis? I'd like to get these levels; is there a remade pack for Lemmix or Lemini somewhere?
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #300 on: February 01, 2012, 01:09:36 AM »
See attachment. This is not the full set, but only the Genesis-exclusive levels.

The difficulties Present and Sunsoft are complete exclusive sets. In Fun through Mayhem, wide levels have been replaced with exclusives. Some of those are remakes from ONML in the L1 styles.

I don't recall the exact Lemmix physics to set, but Custlemm physics sound adequate. In DOS L1 physics, the level Don't Follow Me is not solvable only solvable with heavy RR fiddling due to the lower splat height in DOS L1.

geoo and me think highly of the level design in the Genesis set. Especially Mayhem 1 and Mayhem 30 are beautiful puzzles here, while they are the lousiest worker grindfests in DOS L1.

-- Simon

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #301 on: February 01, 2012, 02:10:41 AM »
thank you very kindly  :). Those level are awesome. I couldn't beleive how many ports there actually are of lemmings. Wikipedia says there's even a Phillips CD-I port, I bet that's a real horror. ;P
[now I'll stop digressing the topic]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #302 on: February 01, 2012, 10:10:11 AM »
I don't meant to go off topic but I couldn't see starting a new topic just for a small question. I never heard of the Sega Genesis version of Lemmings until this site. How in the heck do you move a cursor around the screen with the Genesis game controller (or any other controller for that matter?) I'd image the controls must be stiff and slow for Lemmings.

Were these levels released solely on the Sega Genesis? I'd like to get these levels; is there a remade pack for Lemmix or Lemini somewhere?
It's definitely annoying to play Lemmings with a controller. Plus, I've only played Genesis Lemmings via emulation, so I've had to use keyboard controls, which are even worse. The annoyance is abayed somewhat with the analogue controllers on more modern consoles like the Playstation, but not by an awful lot if i'm honest.

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #303 on: February 02, 2012, 08:12:27 PM »
I don't recall the exact Lemmix physics to set, but Custlemm physics sound adequate. In DOS L1 physics, the level Don't Follow Me is not solvable due to the lower splat height in DOS L1.

And what's the splat height under Genesis?

Also, which Dos L1: the CD version or the floppy version or whatever? Because there's a difference. If you didn't know already, CD-Dos version of Lemmings has a splat height of 66 pixels while under floppy-Dos, it's the classical 63 pixels.
I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #304 on: February 02, 2012, 08:39:50 PM »
I don't recall the exact Lemmix physics to set, but Custlemm physics sound adequate. In DOS L1 physics, the level Don't Follow Me is not solvable due to the lower splat height in DOS L1.

And what's the splat height under Genesis?

Actually, if I recall, it's not a matter of different splat height per se.  Instead, the difference stems from Genesis not having the "lower" splat height of a miner as you do in DOS L1.  The short summary is that in DOS, (roughly speaking) a miner transitioning to a faller cannot survive as high a fall as a normal walker transitioning to faller.  Whereas I don't think this difference exists in Genesis.  But otherwise I think the splat height is identical in both versions (but it's been a long while since I last checked).

Also, when I ported the Genesis levels over to DOS, I distinctly remember that you can still solve "Don't Follow Me" as-is using the normal DOS splat height--you just have to make some big RR changes that are not possible in Genesis (because Genesis doesn't allow changing RR when paused).

Also, which Dos L1: the CD version or the floppy version or whatever? Because there's a difference. If you didn't know already, CD-Dos version of Lemmings has a splat height of 66 pixels while under floppy-Dos, it's the classical 63 pixels.

Almost all mentions of L1 refers to the normal version.  I practically consider the alleged CD version with different splat-height non-existent, as the last time someone claims to have it and ripped the music, he never made available the game files despite I asking. ;P

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #305 on: February 03, 2012, 04:31:42 PM »
Almost all mentions of L1 refers to the normal version.  I practically consider the alleged CD version with different splat-height non-existent, as the last time someone claims to have it and ripped the music, he never made available the game files despite I asking. ;P
Oh s*** I completely forgot about that. On it.

edit: Or not. When I try to rip it, it just gives a string of errors. I can install the game from disk, but when I try to run it in Dosbox, it complains about the CD not being there, even if I mount the CD to a drive there first. Great.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #306 on: February 03, 2012, 04:53:22 PM »
So... is anyone going to review the next level?  ???

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #307 on: February 03, 2012, 07:44:39 PM »
edit: Or not. When I try to rip it, it just gives a string of errors. I can install the game from disk, but when I try to run it in Dosbox, it complains about the CD not being there, even if I mount the CD to a drive there first. Great.

D'oh!  Actually, you got far enough that I think at least the main program file (probably vgalemmi.exe or vgal.exe) is probably okay.

Can't you just open the drive up in Window's Explorer (from My Computer etc.) and copy the files that way (select all, drag&drop or copy&paste)?  If you get prompted for any files that are corrupted and unreadable on the CD, you can just skip them over.

I think the CD thing in DOSBox is actually a DOSBox peculiarity--you have to run some special DOSBox commands to "mount" the CD-ROM drive as a CD-ROM drive, it doesn't do it for you automatically.  I'll edit this post if I find the command.  I think the game will run fine in DOSBox after you do that.

This is super-exciting for me because this really does sound like the version of DOS Lemmings that CustLemm was made from.  I have been trying to track down this version forever!

=================

...Um okay, fine, I'll poop out some lines for whatever the next level is. ;P

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #308 on: February 03, 2012, 08:24:32 PM »
Can't you just open the drive up in Window's Explorer (from My Computer etc.) and copy the files that way (select all, drag&drop or copy&paste)?  If you get prompted for any files that are corrupted and unreadable on the CD, you can just skip them over.
Done. What I get when I try to rip the ISO is here, but that's nowhere near large enough to be right. Here's what I get:
nort@skeida:~$ dd if=/dev/cdrom of=~/CDLEMM.iso
dd: reading `/dev/cdrom': Input/output error
2896+0 records in
2896+0 records out
1482752 bytes (1.5 MB) copied, 0.0197881 s, 74.9 MB/s


Quote
I think the CD thing in DOSBox is actually a DOSBox peculiarity--you have to run some special DOSBox commands to "mount" the CD-ROM drive as a CD-ROM drive, it doesn't do it for you automatically.  I'll edit this post if I find the command.  I think the game will run fine in DOSBox after you do that.
Isn't it just mount $driveLetter $cdLocation -t cdrom?

...Er, no, turns out it's not. That doesn't work, but mount $driveLetter $cdLocation -t cdrom -usecd 0 works, although it makes Lemmings basically unplayable in Dosbox, at least on Linux.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #309 on: February 03, 2012, 08:30:53 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 4 - Train Your Body



10 lemmings
Save 100%
RR 1
5 minutes

12 builders, 5 bashers, 3 diggers

Good: a decent "study the terrain to find a good path" type of level.  Skillset tolerates execution errors without being too generous.  Only 10 lemmings helps avoid the problem of making someone from the crowd bash the right direction.

Bad: Hidden trap a little cheap, and pretty much unnecessary I think.  Seems to require a bit of building no matter how you approach it.  The left column of steel plates not quite lining up with bottom of the terrain block looks a little odd.

Okay, toilet flushed (definitely not a level I'd have reviewed by choice), moving on...... ;P

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #310 on: February 05, 2012, 10:54:38 AM »
Isn't it just mount $driveLetter $cdLocation -t cdrom?

...Er, no, turns out it's not. That doesn't work, but mount $driveLetter $cdLocation -t cdrom -usecd 0 works, although it makes Lemmings basically unplayable in Dosbox, at least on Linux.

Hmm, mount d <cdlocation> -t cdrom seems to work fine for me, but I'm not using Linux, and I didn't actually have the CD with me or try to play it off the CD itself (I think the game files are supposed to go on hard disk and not directly run off of the CD).

Anyway, thanks for the game files and the music.  I confirm that this is indeed the game with the higher fall distance, and thus is the most likely source of how CustLemm came about (indeed, the game EXE's file size is identical to CustLemm's).  Both Lemmings and ONML uses this higher fall distance in this version.

Digging around the EXE, it has "v1.91" somewhere in there.  Not sure what version numbers (if any) can be found in the original versions of the PC games.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #311 on: February 05, 2012, 05:32:37 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 5 - Watch your step


50 lemmings
Save 98% (49)
RR 50
6 minutes

1 bomber, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 1 basher

Good: Another neat "separate the worker lemming" puzzle in a similar style to Anxiety.
Bad: Much simpler than Anxiety, as there's not really much you can try. Taxing 2 was much earlier in the game; did they really think by now we would still find "use the far left of the level area" an interesting novelty?

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #312 on: February 29, 2012, 11:43:58 PM »
Genesis, Sunsoft level 6: "Libra"



(lucky for me I got an easy level  ;P) on that note; the present and sunsoft categories apparently are not harder than mayhem per say (like I expected) but have levels of all difficulties.

Lemmings: 60
save: 48 (80%)
time: 5 min
RR: 50
skills: 15 blockers and 15 bombers

good: It's not what I would've expected for a bomboozle level and it looks mildly interesting.
bad: It's a little too easy especially for "sunsoft" (of course as I mentioned above I'm guessing these extra categories were like bonus levels or something?) I beat it with 5 of each skill remaining and could've done better. I also don't understand the title, is it the shape of the level? It kinda looks like a scale.... I guess.
I like the layout but would've come up with a better skill-set/strategy

I noticed the genesis creators apparently really like the spinning trap in marble terrain. They have a bunch of them in place of acid in some instances.

note: I used an image from google because the link in this topic doesn't work quite right. When I click on the picture (on that other site) it goes to the top of the page.  ???

everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #313 on: March 01, 2012, 12:49:33 AM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 7 - Everyone turn left (part two)


10 lemmings
Save 100%
RR 30
3 minutes

40 miners

Good: Makes for a cute "fewest skills" challenge
Bad: Tedious (if done the normal way) and not especially interesting

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #314 on: March 20, 2012, 12:24:42 AM »
wow, I just had a zen moment. This level stumped me earlier, then just now, I sat down, "meditated" and said; I will solve this level. Then in less than two minutes I did!
Also I thought I'd mention the ^previous level is not solvable in Lemmini because you can't mine at all the wrong way on one way blocks :(


Genesis - Sunsoft 8 - Is This a Circus?



Lemmings: 10
Rescue: 10
Time: 3 minutes
RR: 1

Build: 8
Bash: 2
everything else: 0


Good: I liked the 'Circus' design. I also really like the trick in the beginning to isolate the lemmings.

Bad: another genesis level with that pattern I'm noticing; some builders and a small amount of terrain removal skills. I don't really know why but it's getting on my nerves (just a tiny bit).
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #315 on: March 20, 2012, 02:03:00 AM »
Well done :) That one's quite tricky and a nice puzzle, but this next one is definitely one of my favourites....

Genesis - Sunsoft 9 - Evacuating a coal mine



100 lemmings
Save 100%
RR 99
5 minutes

1 climber, 3 builders, 10 bashers, 2 miners

Good: Excellent puzzle, looks impossible until you spot the solution, and in contrast to TM's previous "bad" point, the difficulty of this one stems largely from the paucity of builders. Very nice use of the crystal graphics set, too.

Bad: What's the point of the trap in the bottom-right corner of the level?

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #316 on: March 20, 2012, 04:12:10 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 10 - Spiral Staircase

Number of lemmings: 100
Save 98% (98/100)
Skills: 1/1/1/1/10/0/0/10
Time: 6:00
Release rate: 20

Good: The terrain fits together well.
Bad: This level is practically fun difficulty. It would of been a lot better with a 100% save rate or something. Also there's too many lemmings.

Offline Luis

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #317 on: March 21, 2012, 02:51:22 AM »
Bad: What's the point of the trap in the bottom-right corner of the level?

It must be for design of the level to make it look nice. I mean look at Cascade. I don't think the exit area would look good, if it didn't had that useless noose trap there.
Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #318 on: March 21, 2012, 02:22:26 PM »
Well, the format dictates I had to find something bad to say about the level!

No such difficulties with this one.

Genesis - Sunsoft 11 - Turn around and look.



50 lemmings
Save 90% (45)
Release rate 1
3 minutes

5 builders, 2 bashers, 3 miners

Good: Neat puzzle idea using the "long way round" theme; the trap is well used to make it more thought-provoking than it might at first appear.
Bad: The steps are all fairly obvious. And I believe there's enough room to mine and turn them round on the upper level, spoiling the puzzle.

Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #319 on: March 22, 2012, 02:12:41 PM »
Yeah, I think that's how I solved it. :evil:

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #320 on: March 26, 2012, 12:56:19 AM »
sometimes I think some so-called backroutes were left in on purpose by game designers for the benefit of gamers that like using their noggin'  ;) (or this could just be a slightly more sophisticated version of "More complicated than it looks") In this case, whether your an over thinker or lazy there's a solution for you.


Sunsoft 12: Water Processing Plant



Lemmings: 50
Rescue: 49
Time Limit: 3 minutes
RR: 1

Float:1 Build:7 Bash:1 Min:2 everything else: 0


Good: I like the design and layout. A bunch of different solutions seem possible at first but then you realize it's actually very limited. The Rescue number kinda of threw me off.

Bad: Separating the Lemmings is a little frustrating (timing).

-------------
what should we review after Genesis is done? I vote for Lemmings Revolution!
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline lemmaniack133

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #321 on: March 28, 2012, 07:11:05 AM »
Newbie (to the site, but NOT the game ;P) here. Sorry to impose but might I get into these level reviews. I'd like to contribute and spread my fandom of Lemmings also haha :).

I just need to know how to post the level pics on here; if someone would be nice to teach/tell me haha XD.

You guys can call me Kevin or Kev for short 8).

Offline Simon

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #322 on: March 28, 2012, 09:10:09 AM »
Images are hotlinked from the directory http://www.deveria.com/alexis/lemmings/lemmings/gen/. Insert into forum post with [img]imageURL[/img].

ratingXX.png are the images in use.
ratingXXsm.png are thumbnails, we don't need those.
ratingXXst.png shows, from left to right, the skillset, the release rate, and the time limit.

-- Simon

Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #323 on: March 28, 2012, 12:55:12 PM »

Sunsoft 13: Doomsday
Lemmings: 50
Goal: 40 (80%)
Time: 5
Rate: 1
Skills: 20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20

Good: Looks funny and artistic.
Bad: Breaks the difficulty curve and is one of the most convincing pieces of evidence I can see that suggests that the Sunsoft rating was conceived purely as a bonus category rather than being necessarily more difficult than any other level. Seriously, though, an easy all-20 level this late in the game?? It's not the only one, too; there are two more later on. Also, I believe you have to build up from the bottom on the right a bit too much for my liking. And it feels very sloppily designed to have the lemmings walking on the letters, which I don't think happens in any other level.

Offline lemmaniack133

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #324 on: April 01, 2012, 09:01:30 AM »
Let's see if I can do this level review thing right haha :P.



Lemmings (Sega Genesis) - Sunsoft Level 14 - "No world without you"
# of Lemmings: 2
Rescue: 100% (2)
Time: 5
Release Rate: 90
Skills: 01/00/00/00/04/04/00/01

Good: Very nice title; it definitely implies the solution to them both home. Level itself looks very nice, and two-lemming levels make it slightly easier to manage :)
Bad: It, unfortunately, suffers a backroute (although, in my experience, it can't performed correctly all of the time). This level also seems a bit easier than Mayhem Level 23 - "A group of entrances"

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #325 on: April 01, 2012, 12:56:19 PM »
You did fine, don't worry. (Though I'm very curious now as to what the backroute is.)

Genesis - Sunsoft 15 - Exodus!



50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 1
3 minutes

5 climbers, 1 floater, 5 blockers, 4 builders, 1 basher

Good: A classic lateral thinking puzzle -- when I first came across it on ONML, took me a very long time to spot the method. Looks absolutely gorgeous redone in the "sand" style, with an atmosphere of stillness that fits in very well with the "get out of this place" theme.
Bad: Unlike in ONML, where it's positioned here it seems out of place.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #326 on: April 01, 2012, 06:41:35 PM »
(In L14, each entrance has another one behind it.  ??? Since there are only two lemmings, this is totally useless (but it would be useless anyway wouldn't it?)

Genesis Sunsoft 16: Here is Mr. Lemming's House



50 lemmings
Save 40
Release rate 1
5 minutes

0 climbers, 0 floater, 10 of everything else

Good: an interesting level that requires a little thinking. There's a bunch of different ways to get around the one-way obstacle. You have plenty of skills except no climbers or floaters which makes it a little interesting. The decoration is also good.

Bad: It's more like tricky or even fun difficulty.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #327 on: April 02, 2012, 03:06:58 AM »
(In L14, each entrance has another one behind it.  ??? Since there are only two lemmings, this is totally useless (but it would be useless anyway wouldn't it?)
You mean on Lemmix? That could be to force the lemmings to come out in the correct ABAB order (on the Mayhem version where there's more than two lemmings) rather than the weird DOS ABBA order. Basically if you have extra entrances which are in the same place, they're effectively invisible but will change the order in which lemmings enter the level. I used it on a custom level with 4 lemmings, where I wanted 3 lemmings out of one entrance and 1 out of the other – I just placed three entrances overlapping.

Offline lemmaniack133

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #328 on: April 02, 2012, 09:52:17 PM »
I'm guessing the next level will be a popular one haha. I'll just review this one :P



Lemmings (Sega Genesis) - Sunsoft Level 17 - "Cave quest"
# of Lemmings: 10
Rescue: 100% (10)
Time: 5 Minutes
Release Rate: 10
Skills: 02|03|05|01|05|03|03|03

Good: Appropriate title. Level looks real nice too, and I think the traps were a nice touch along with the limited amount of skills. (Otherwise, this level would be too easy :P.) Really makes you think what's the best way to get out of this "cave" ;).
Bad: When you build to the exit, the height looks a like intimidating (until you find out it's not splat height). There's nothing else really I can say XD.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #329 on: April 02, 2012, 10:00:54 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 18 - SUNSOFT Special



60 lemmings
Save 80% (48)
Release rate 20
3 minutes

20 of each skill

Good: Jaunty music that's not too grating on the ears, for a short while. I wouldn't like it to occur on more than one level though!
Bad: Even for a "special" level, this is really easy.

...and, just in case anyone's wondering, both the characters depicted by the level and the music come from the Sunsoft game "Ufouria".

Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #330 on: April 03, 2012, 12:40:10 AM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 19 - Let's go camping.



3 lemmings
Save 100% (3)
Release rate 40
4 minutes
Skillset: 0 1 1 1 7 2 0 1

Good: An excellent and really challenging level -- if you insist on actually going camping, i.e. sending all three down to the tent and back up to the exit. The solution is nifty and elegant, and the title is fitting. Definitely a level worthy being amongst the last in the hardest rating, but...
Bad: ...if you don't aim to fulfil the lemmings' wish to go camping, then it's practically worthless, as it has this blatantly obvious and trivial backroute that everyone finds the first (and possibly only) time playing the level, by just turning them around at the top: trip cancelled.

Offline finlay

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #331 on: April 03, 2012, 04:13:47 AM »
What is the intended solution?  ???

Offline lemmaniack133

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #332 on: April 03, 2012, 06:27:15 AM »
What is the intended solution?  ???

I'm wondering the exact same thing. I've ALWAYS used the backroute for this level cause I can never figure out the intended solution :-\

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #333 on: April 13, 2012, 04:49:55 PM »
I've attached a Lix replay of the "long road" solution to Sunsoft 19.

Genesis - Sunsoft 20 - Haunted botanical garden



60 lemmings
Save 98% (59)
Release rate 20
3 minutes

5 floaters, 2 bombers, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: Perhaps the most artistically designed level in the game; the curving "hedges" and filled-in areas form a lovely effect that wouldn't be out of place in a real garden.
Bad: Build, mine, dig, level over. You won't even notice the hidden traps unless, for some reason, you try a more roundabout route first.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:03:04 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline geoo

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #334 on: April 14, 2012, 08:52:54 PM »
Sorry forgot about this, attached my lix replay to "Let's go camping" as well. I find it somewhat more elegant than Proxima's solution. Here's a brief outline if you can't watch the replay (highlight to read):
Quote
Quote
Block the first lemming on the small brick, delay the third one by digging through the starting platform. The second one turns around at the blocker, and starts building towards the column when on the tent. The third one will have arrived by then, have one of the two bash and build twice, while the other builds up once to the left towards the blocker. Build to the exit at the left while building twice up to the block with the fire trap on top. After turning around, free the blocker using the basher. The blocker will walk up to the block you built against, turn around and walk to the exit as well.
The first time I played Haunted Botanical garden, I didn't find it that trivial actually. I built right from the landing platform towards the right, and then mined. Needless to say, when I thought I had a route to the exit, the hidden trap squished my lemmings. Building over it, which is somewhat tricky, got me to the exit, where my plans were foiled again by the next set of hidden traps. The longer route further over the top should work though.

Genesis - Sunsoft 21 - Be sure to be a builder



25 lemmings
Save 100% (25)
Release rate 50
4 minutes

1 bomber, 1 blocker, 12 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner

Good: It's certainly not trivial, you need to find a route that conserves builders to some extent. Probably harder than most of DOS Mayhem (which doesn't say much though).
Bad: I haven't found a really elegant solution to this level yet. You can still brute-force your way through the level. Design looks a bit messy.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:03:58 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #335 on: April 15, 2012, 03:30:47 AM »
The first time I played Haunted Botanical garden, I didn't find it that trivial actually. I built right from the landing platform towards the right, and then mined. Needless to say, when I thought I had a route to the exit, the hidden trap squished my lemmings. Building over it, which is somewhat tricky, got me to the exit, where my plans were foiled again by the next set of hidden traps.

Well, that certainly explains a lot in terms of your feelings towards hidden traps. ;P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #336 on: April 16, 2012, 10:37:14 PM »
Ah -- playing Hail 5 in Lix made me notice something. The lemmings fall one pixel further left than they would on the original game! (This seems to make 100% on Hail 5 impossible.) On Sunsoft 20, it means they miss the upper "hedge" and land on the middle one, so at first your comments made no sense to me, but I understand now. Yes, after fixing it, it is indeed possible to solve "over the top", even with 100%. My solution (which works in both versions) was for the left-side lemmings to build over the gap under the second yellow filled circle.

Moving on...

Genesis - Sunsoft 22 - Watch right or left (Part two)



50 lemmings
Save 92% (46)
Release rate 20
2 minutes

4 bombers, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger

Good: Elegant maze-like layout, not easy to find a way through with so few skills. For additional replay value, both exits are reachable.
Bad: The left exit is much harder, and you have no incentive to try for it, since the easier right exit is also the one that saves the maximum %.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #337 on: August 16, 2012, 11:47:30 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 23 – Move on in two Separate Groups



50 lemmings
Save 100%
Release rate 50
3 minutes

1 blockers, 7 builders, 4 bashers

The solution I came up with seems slightly backroutish but I did use all the skills.

Good: Looks sort of simple at first but is in fact much harder than it looks. Requires some thought and planning. I like the design look as usual.
-I also like the title of most of the Genesis levels even though they're kind of strange.-

Bad:  Still getting tired of all these levels that have 5-10 builder and 1 or 2 basher/miner/digger. This one isn’t so bad though, at least there is a blocker too.
The yellow brick next to the steps in the middle is annoying to bash through correctly.


<<<I’ve now completed all the Genesis levels except the ones left in this list!>>>
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2012, 03:13:10 AM »
can someone upload a Lemmix replay of the long solution to Let's go camping?

I don't have the original files for Lix and I don't really care to get them.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #339 on: September 06, 2012, 12:31:39 AM »
This is my first review too - I don't know why I didn't join this forum sooner.  I hail from England, where the Genesis is known as the Mega Drive, but I'll try to cater for both sides of the pond!


Genesis/Mega Drive - SUNSOFT 24 - Out, away from the tune



Lemmings: 50
Target: 98% (49)
Release Rate: 1
Time Limit: 6 minutes

Tools: -- -- 01 01 05 05 -- --


Good: Very neat design with the stave and the notes (and remembering the double-bar terminator on the far right!).  Easy to make the naïve mistake of building against the first A-note instead of bashing through it.  Good music choice.

Bad: Far too trivial for SUNSOFT, let alone this late on - this is no harder than early Taxing at best.  Building off the final A-note can be frustrating because it can sometimes trap lemmings to the right of it.  Time limit is far too long - even leaving the release rate at 1 leaves you with well over 2 minutes to spare.

Offline Minim

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #340 on: September 06, 2012, 07:58:54 AM »
Nicely written review there, and welcome to the forums!

Genesis - SUNSOFT 25 - Stray sheep



Lemmings: 100
Save: 80
Release Rate: 1
Time Limit: 7 minutes

Skills: 20 of each

Good: It does sort of "expand" on the original hidden exit challenge.
Bad: Poor idea, and there is no real challenge other than figuring out how to avoid some nasty hidden traps that scatter around the place. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #341 on: September 06, 2012, 06:32:44 PM »
Genesis/Mega Drive - SUNSOFT 26 - Just a minute (Part Three)



Lemmings: 100
Target: 100% (100)
Release Rate: 90
Time Limit: 1 minute

Tools: 01 -- -- -- -- 02 03 01


Good: Nice scenic design.

Bad: Solution is too obvious as, by this stage, players know about the "mining into one-way walls" trick to turn a lemming around (thanks to the "Everyone turn left" levels) and this level uses it twice.  The wide pillar on the right doesn't reach the bottom of the screen - admittedly not too visible in-game, but a bit of a careless oversight.  It is not really a worthy successor to the "Just a minute" levels of Mayhem... in actual fact, I don't think you can actually run out of time unless you forget to turn up the release rate.


With some skill, you don't even need to use the third miner to save the climber, as you can bash from the exit and hit the steel plates while allowing the basher from the left to still reach the tunnel... in my opinion, only offering 2 miners and relying on this trick would make it more on par with post-Mayhem difficulty.  You can probably tell I don't like this level too much; I found it a pushover by this stage and there isn't really much I can say about it that's positive.



Oh, to bring up an older level:
...
Genesis - Present 16 - A trap is a trap


Lemmings: 100
10% to be saved
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 80

Skills: 7 bombers, 7 blockers, 5 builders

Good: Impossible to build straight away, lots of exits and of course, lots of traps. Not a bad intended solution with the requirement of more than one worker...
Bad: ...but it's time consuming with blockers AND bombers, steel frame looks boring.

My solution to this was very unorthodox, and I sense it is what the designers were trying to aim for, given the low pass percentage.  I bombed straight down the middle, directly above the exit.  Of course, you don't have enough bombers to break through, so I used the only other source of bombers available... the nuke.  About 30% get saved this way.  It also explains the presence of the steel floor, to prevent exploding lemmings from undermining the exit.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #342 on: September 06, 2012, 10:48:46 PM »
Genesis - Sunsoft 27 / SNES - Sunsoft 1 - Two heads are better...



4 lemmings
Save 25% (1)
Release rate 1
1 minute

4 climbers, 1 floater, 3 bombers

Good: In the Genesis version of the level, the steel areas are tightened compared to the SNES version, preventing a backroute that saves 2/4. (Was the Genesis version made before or after the SNES -- anyone know?) As bomber timing levels go, this one requires good precision but, with only three bombers, is quick and not too annoying. Saving one of four is unique, and rather a nice quirk.
Bad: Like the previous three levels, it's far too easy for late Sunsoft. For anyone expecting the category to be a step above Mayhem, it's really only the last two levels that are worthy of that.

* * *

Lemmix replay for "Let's go camping" attached.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #343 on: September 08, 2012, 03:05:03 AM »

Oh, to bring up an older level:
...
Genesis - Present 16 - A trap is a trap


Lemmings: 100
10% to be saved
Time: 3 minutes
Release rate: 80

Skills: 7 bombers, 7 blockers, 5 builders

Good: Impossible to build straight away, lots of exits and of course, lots of traps. Not a bad intended solution with the requirement of more than one worker...
Bad: ...but it's time consuming with blockers AND bombers, steel frame looks boring.

My solution to this was very unorthodox, and I sense it is what the designers were trying to aim for, given the low pass percentage.  I bombed straight down the middle, directly above the exit.  Of course, you don't have enough bombers to break through, so I used the only other source of bombers available... the nuke.  About 30% get saved this way.  It also explains the presence of the steel floor, to prevent exploding lemmings from undermining the exit.

excellent idea! That makes a lot of sense. It definitely fits near the end of the game, and the title is apt as well. I believe it. *forgot it's Present 16. But still, I think you're right.
In Lemmix it wouldn't work too well but on the actual Genesis steel works a lit differently, I believe it may be doable.*
It's also sad though because if this is the intended solution this would be just another of the Genesis levels with absolute ridiculous back routes. This would've been a very good level in that case. Who would think to try that route at first... And since the other ways are really not hard at all the a doubt many people got this one.

*Which reminds me there is someone with a complete Genesis walkthrough out there. I'll post it when (if) I find it.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #344 on: September 08, 2012, 08:32:20 AM »
In Lemmix it wouldn't work too well but on the actual Genesis steel works a lit differently, I believe it may be doable.

You must have just got lucky on the Genesis and unlucky on Lemmix, because the steel mechanics are pretty much the same. An exploder just above the steel, because he isn't actually standing on steel yet, will take out a small piece, sometimes preventing the lemmings entering or causing them to splat. Most of the time you can save enough, though. I saved 42% on Lemmix after just a few tries.

Recently, TVTropes listed this as one level where the nuke is required. I had to correct them 8)

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #345 on: September 10, 2012, 06:43:41 PM »
just so you know; I didn’t really test this level on a Genesis emulator. I said that only because:
There was a video I wanted to show you that demonstrates that there definitely is a difference in steel mechanics. Now I can’t find it. But in the video the player is able to bash through steel by simply doing some weird combination of building/bashing. No blockers or trigger areas were used as far as I can tell. If anything however, it indicates the steel is possibly even more glitchy. In any case, it doesn’t matter; as you said it’s clearly possible even with the steel glitches just a little harder.

moving right along…

Genesis, Sunsoft level 28: The gate trap Lemmings



Lemmings: 100
100% to be saved
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 70

Skills: 1 floater, 1 bombers, 1 blockers, 6 builders, 5 bashers, 2 diggers

Good: I like the design a lot. As usual the decoration is really nice/well thought up putting blocks together to make them look bigger.
The solution(s) are neat, and effective use of one-way-walls.

Bad: There are too many solutions making it too easy for its position in the game. Though the arrows say ‘only on terrain’ in Lemmix for some reason in Lemini they don’t display right. They remain on screen when you bash through the terrain.

only 2 levels remain! (and I wooped both of them already  :))
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #346 on: September 10, 2012, 07:23:55 PM »
There was a video I wanted to show you that demonstrates that there definitely is a difference in steel mechanics. Now I can’t find it. But in the video the player is able to bash through steel by simply doing some weird combination of building/bashing.

Which level? In DOS Lemmings / Lemmix you can often bash through the top of steel without blocker-cancelling (e.g. Taxing 6 100%). But that's not relevant to Present 16, which has no bashers ;P

Your previous review says "Genesis/SNES Sunsoft 28", which is incorrect. The SNES version has a much shorter Sunsoft set, containing just five of the unique Genesis levels (Two heads are better, I am A.T., Private room available, Final impediment, Lemmings' Ark).

Genesis - Sunsoft 29 / SNES - Sunsoft 2 - I am A.T.


100 lemmings
To save 80% (80)
Release rate 1
2 minutes

1 bomber, 1 builder, 40 diggers

Good: The archetypal digger-staircase level, containing no extra complications (other than the red herring of the bomber, in fact useless). A striking and memorable solution that, inevitably, has led nearly all of us to have a go at building on it at some time or other. Yet that's not to say the level is simple once you've grasped the concept; you still need to fine-tune the details, such as finding the correct release rate, avoiding a splat, and letting the first 20 or so lemmings walk to the exit before beginning the work. In short, an excellent introduction to some advanced lemming-control concepts that are unused in the normal solutions to the vast majority of the original levels. And the 100% solution is pure poetry.

Bad: This level can be really annoying as you have to keep going without missing a digger. It's pretty much "We all fall down" except the first digger (thankfully only the first) is pixel-precise.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #347 on: September 10, 2012, 08:41:47 PM »
it's mayhem 18, two different worlds. They bash through the steel straight on to the exit, it's not near the top of the level.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #348 on: September 10, 2012, 09:55:04 PM »
Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iipvDLK0pOU

This is a combination of two different glitches -- firstly, once the game has decided that the basher or miner stroke can start (because the lemming is standing on normal terrain), it will take out all terrain in its mask, including steel. (This is why he builds before the second basher.) Secondly, once you get halfway into steel, you can bash the rest of the way through. I can't replicate this in Lemmix because steel detection is a little more robust, and the game won't allow the first basher even to be assigned -- but for a spectacular example of the exact same glitches in action in the DOS version, look at Wild 11, where you can mine and bash through the large triangle towards the end, and so avoid the floating and building necessary in the conventional solution.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #349 on: September 10, 2012, 11:49:56 PM »
Interesting, so it looks like the basher in Genesis probably takes the same behavior as miner assignment in DOS Lemmings/Lemmix, where the steel check during skill assignment is probably done based on whether the lemming is standing on steel, rather than whether there's steel up ahead.  In contrast as Proxima pointed out, DOS Lemmings/Lemmix does the "metal ahead" check during skill assignment for basher (but not miner), so the move seen in Genesis Mayhem 18 won't work in DOS Lemmings/Lemmix, but the Wild 11 example Proxima pointed out of course does.

Of course, it doesn't really put much weigh at all into mobius' argument about the Present 16 nuking solution--the Genesis Mayhem 18 example rather suggests you are just as likely, if not more likely, to blow away any steel near the exit, and not less likely as one would want for the nuking solution.

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #350 on: September 12, 2012, 01:24:20 AM »
Great review of "I am A.T." - definitely one of my favourite levels of all time... plus I have a soft spot for the "Little Town of Bethlehem" music... is this only the third time it's used in the entire game, after Fun 17 and Tricky 18?

By the way, the Bomber is useful as a recovery tool if you dig slightly too far forward (hence leaving a thin wall), as well as stopping the digger to prevent lemmings from splatting.

----

Genesis/Mega Drive - SUNSOFT 30 - Fall and no life (Part Two)



Lemmings: 50
Target: 100% (50)
Release Rate: 50
Time Limit: 3 minutes

Tools: -- 01 -- -- 05 05 02 --


Good: Nice reintroduction of a memorable Taxing level, but with a couple of extra surprises around the second narrow pit.  Level has a bit of a "how on Earth do I get through this?" feel to it.  Intended solution is nerve-wracking and down-to-the-wire in regards to time.

Bad: Doesn't really feel epic enough as a final level, although that isn't helped by the presence of a few too many backroutes, some more cunning than others.  The fact you can't do the one-way wall mine trick on top of the cliff can feel a bit cheap.  The "Lemmings 3" music is starting to feel a bit overused... mind you, what tune would be good for the final level? (Might have chosen "Lemmings 1" personally, same as the original "Fall and no life" and "Lemmings' Ark")


Hope that's fair - anyone want to add to that?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #351 on: September 12, 2012, 02:28:00 AM »
The "Lemmings 3" music is starting to feel a bit overused

Wow. I never noticed this before, but the music on the Genesis version is very strange! Every other version I've played cycles through all 17 tunes so they each come up the same number of times (or nearly -- the special levels interfere with this). On the Genesis, the music seems to be assigned almost at random! There's even an instance of two consecutive levels with the same music ("Ten Green Bottles" on Taxing 10 and 11). I've written down which levels have which music up to the end of Taxing -- I'll do the rest tomorrow -- and so far you're definitely right, "Lemming 3" is just a little overused, occurring 11 times in 87 non-special levels.

I would have suggested "Rondo alla Turca" for the final level, because it's awesome, and it's not used nearly enough on the Genesis version, occurring only twice so far.

Fall and no life (Part Two) is one of my favourites, but I found the epic main solution first and discovered the backroutes later.

Offline mobius

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #352 on: September 12, 2012, 03:13:39 AM »
So you're saying you tested this on a Genesis emulator and the music selects at random? Strange.

What was your solution?
Quote

mine was:
almost same as part 1 except let two lemmings go on beyond the first crevice. One mines to turn around then mines into the longer crevice and bashes to free the others before falling.
This is one of the backroutes I'm guessing. I didn't even get to look into the left part of the level and see what else was going on. On youtube somebody has what he claims are the two main solutions that are probably intended. His name is LemminsMaster

I was frankly a little disappointed. I have to sort of agree with Insane Steve I think it was, who said he thought part 1 was harder. If only because part 2 is so similar and now I've already learned the tricks involved so it's not a big deal.

and also, probably been discussed before but what's with the title? Clam's Fall and DIE! sounds a lot better.
More Japanese/translation issues or just culture differences?

---
After playing the Genesis levels I have to give a big hand of applause to the creators of this version. Very well done despite numerous sad backroutes. Some of the decoration is ingenuous and required a lot of work. Also great job in using the underused graphic styles. Except one minor complaint: the third 'slicer' trap of the Crystal set was never used was it?
All in all it greatly expanded on the original game.

Some of the choices made however are just plain strange. Like some of the titles. and the music.
Some of the levels are really out of place in the difficulty ratings. Some seem just pointless. There are a few that look sort of interesting but have such simple solutions you have to wonder if it's really a backroute or just some kind of weird level idea gone wrong or something  ???

And why remake some of the ONML levels when they were making their own? Why not remake all of ONML? Since they made so many originals why not makes two separate games or another game? They must've bet on seeing how the game would do and apparently it didn't do well enough to make more sequels etc..  :( Of course Sega is known for doing things that don't make any sense at all so...
I know "Sega" didn't create this game but Sega is ultimately in charge of saying "make another lemmings game" or not.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #353 on: September 12, 2012, 11:16:01 AM »
I know "Sega" didn't create this game but Sega is ultimately in charge of saying "make another lemmings game" or not.

Hmm, I'll profess ignorance at how the game publishing business works on the consoles, but really?  It's not just a matter of the game publisher who decided to hire people to make and market the game?  This is not Sonic we're talking about after all, I rather wonder how much involvement Sega would have on Genesis Lemmings.

About the Genesis having so many unique levels, I'm guessing it must be something that was established in early planning.  It is clear that there is a technical limitation with the maximum size of the level area on the Genesis version.  This probably led to early realization that many of the PC levels just can't be made to work without major re-design, at which point you might as well create new ones specifically for the Genesis, which is of course exactly what they did.  The PC ONML levels won't help much in that regard as many of them would probably have the same issue of level size (well to be fair, I haven't really do an actual survey of them to say for sure).  I'm also guessing that technical limitations would make it problematic to include all the new graphics sets from ONML so they just stuck with the original 5 graphics sets, even when remaking a few selected ONML levels.

It is a fair point though that there are some Genesis unique levels in the post-Mayhem ratings, that seem like would be better off replaced by a remake of an ONML level instead.  But considering what they came up with amongst the unique levels, I think they just really got drawn into new level creation and probably found remaking ONML levels not fun enough by comparison.  (And probably easier to sell to management the value of having more new unique levels.)

The "random" music order is something I never noticed since I didn't play many of the levels on the Genesis emulator.  An interesting question would be whether the music ordering is at least "normal" for the levels that are direct ports of the original PC/Amiga levels?  I can easily see the music ordering becoming scrambled amongst the replacement and new levels.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #354 on: September 12, 2012, 02:20:23 PM »
So you're saying you tested this on a Genesis emulator and the music selects at random?

No -- it's like the other versions in that each level consistently has the same music -- but instead of cycling through the 17 pieces in an absolutely regular pattern, it's all over the place. (That said, now that I have the full list, there's much more pattern than you'd expect from a purely random matching. Taxing 21-30, Mayhem 11-20 and Present 1-11 have identical sequences, except that Present 10 throws an extra "Cancan" into the mix. Mayhem 1-10 and Sunsoft 1-10 have the same sequence (in which "Lemming3" occurs twice!) Equal-numbered Taxing and Sunsoft levels have the same music for 21 out of a possible 28, the exceptions having seemingly no pattern. Five out of six Level 16s have "London Bridge".)

Crane is sadly correct that "O Little Town" occurs only thrice. "Lemming3" is, as we suspected, the most common, occurring 21 times; the runners-up are Tim2 (17), Doggie and Mountain (16). The oddities in the sequence seem to have nothing to do with whether the levels are original Amiga ones or new ones; for instance, the first repeated music is Cancan (Fun 1 and 12), before the first new level appears.

Offline exit

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #355 on: September 01, 2014, 02:12:38 PM »
I feel like bumping this topic because the forums haven't been getting lots of activity recently(with today as an exclusion), and starting a new level review would bring a lot of activity. Of course, we don't have to do a level review if we don't want to.

If we do decide to do one, I suggest Holiday Lemmings 1994(in order).

Offline Akseli

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #356 on: September 01, 2014, 02:24:23 PM »
There's a topic for Holiday Lemmings already: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=209.0

I think the two 4-level Xmas Lemmings games haven't been reviewed yet there.

By the way, in my opinion the activity on our forums has been unordinarily high during the last months. :)

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #357 on: September 01, 2014, 02:25:36 PM »
There's always fanpacks, too. I don't think any of the Lemmings Plus series have had review topics done; and I can definitely say for sure the cLemmings packs and GeoffLems haven't.
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline exit

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #358 on: September 01, 2014, 02:51:59 PM »
I was not aware of that.
If we want to review a custom level set, we could do it on the custom level set review topic.

Offline Wafflem

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #359 on: September 04, 2014, 03:09:41 AM »
I was thinking we could create separate official fangame review topics like with DoveLems; this is so people will have a variety of fangames to review in, and this may also help boost forum activity. For series of fangames (e.g. Lemmings Plus, cLemmings), the games can be reviewed separately instead of doing it in the order they are (e.g. two separate topics for LPDOS and LPII instead of one topic called "Lemmings Plus Series Level Review Game")

If possible, there should be a separate forum section for all level review games. There should be two sub-sections: one for official games, and one for fangames.

Also, now that namida has released the Lemmix players for COVOX, Prima and the Extra player, we should start reviewing levels from those, too. Should we start with COVOX?
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Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #360 on: September 04, 2014, 04:25:26 AM »
I think the Genesis levels have been reviewed before, but there's still the Sega, PSP* and "Other" ones if they haven't?

(*Note: Only the NeoLemmix version of the Extra Player has the PSP levels.)
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Offline DoubleU

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #361 on: April 17, 2017, 06:37:51 PM »
What happened to all the screenshots!

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #362 on: April 17, 2017, 07:04:47 PM »
Seems like the image links still point to the old lemmingsforums.com address before we migrated over to the current lemmingsforums.net address.  It doesn't look like we ever migrated the actual files over, or if we did it's not located under the same path anymore.

Offline namida

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Re: Level Review Topic
« Reply #363 on: April 18, 2017, 01:47:48 AM »
What do you mean? They look fine to me. :P :P :P
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