Author Topic: I'm still here, and I still love Lemmings :) (Read 11179 times)

weirdybeardy · « **on:** August 19, 2008, 08:42:13 PM »

Hello all. I think I'm one of the "newer" members of the forum, and it's over a year since I joined. :winktounge: Anyway, it's been a while since I posted, and now I'm back. Since Sony shut down the servers for the Lemmings PSP/PS2 database, I've been focussing more on PC Lemmings. At some point in the not-too-distant future I'd like to learn how to use Lemmix to re-create my PS2 levels in PC-playable format and upload them onto the archive so more people can play them. They're not really that difficult, but I think it's worth doing... isn't it? Isn't that what this community is all about?

So, um, yeah. That's all, really. I'm still here, and I still love Lemmings.

PS. I only just discovered Lacktardo's Lemmings videos. That's part of the reason why I was inspired to return to the forum...

Tim · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2008, 12:13:46 AM »

Yea totally worth it to create them for PC. And Lemmix is quite simple to use once you get aroud the initial blockage of finding out all the controls and stuff on where to put the levels and where to put lemmix into to get the graphics sets

And about the videos, yep his videos are cool too. Plus if you like the Mario series of games ive created a graphics set dedicated to it

My youtube page has got the ones ive made so far...
http://www.youtube.com/user/timfoxxy

P.S. Welcome back

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2008, 11:24:49 AM »

Umm... How on Earth do I use Lemmix to create new levels? I've had a look at the software itself and the documentation that came with the download, and I don't really know where to start... I'm no idiot, but it still seems complicated...

Tim · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2008, 12:31:24 PM »

Honestly you are better off talking direct to the program creator, EricLang (member of this forum). However since he isnt online much anymore it may require help from multiple members here to get into. Ill guide you in the right direction, even try to solve some problems if I know how to fix them

First thing to do is to get the program from its website:
http://home.hccnet.nl/ericenzwaan/lemmix/lemmix.htm

You will see a link showing "Download Lemmix Level Editor latest alpha version" This should be self explanitory

Now it is reccommended to keep scrolling down past that link after downloading to have a look at the information on Mouse usage, Controls and basics on making a level. It also helps to examine the two screenshots of the program at the bottom

On to re-creating your levels. If you know which graphics set and which game they came from (whether it be the original lemmings, oh no more lemmings, holiday lemmings,etc) then this will make it easier.
Although it is possible to combine graphics sets of different games like I did, it would be reccomended to use just one set of graphics sets. As far as I know the graphics files do not come with Lemmix and you will need to find them yourself, or get one of us to send them to you.

I'm nearly falling asleep with so much of this typing, lol, so I think ill end it for now. Any further help you need just ask us

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2008, 02:39:29 PM »

Thanks very much for that!

It's mainly the controls I have to get to grips with. It seems a bit tricky to get everything neat and precise, and I'm still not sure how to properly define steel areas: I create it, then it disappears...

Anyway, I'll see what I can figure out.

Thanks again.

geoo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2008, 04:34:07 PM »

Press F7 (or check View -> Steel Rendering).

F11 (or check View -> Inspector Window) will pop up the inspector window where you can set the size of the area.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2008, 08:32:36 PM »

Thank you for that.

Is there an easy way to do lots of tiling over a large area? It seems like it would take a long time to get all the bricks (for instance) lined up perfectly...

And another thing, while I'm at it. :winktounge: What's your advice on getting the grass to look right in Dirt style? It seems very... fiddly.

Clam · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2008, 02:33:34 AM »

To create a tessellating pattern, make up the unit that you want to be repeated, select it, press Ctrl+C and then select Edit/Paste Special (or Shift+Ctrl+V). You can choose the number of copies and the horizontal and vertical distance between copies (unfortunately you'll have to figure out the distance yourself). Keep in mind that the positive Y-direction is DOWN, not up - that has caused me a lot of confusion

As for the grass, yes it is fiddly and there isn't much you can do about that. Most of the "ground" pieces can be covered nicely with the available grass pieces. Zoom in really close and make sure there's no gaps between the dirt and the grass, and no dirt showing through the top of the grass.

Tim · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2008, 03:51:44 AM »

All correct there

Beardy, I can let you have a bit of a fiddle with one of my levels with grass in it, so you can get used to how the grass placement works in Lemmix. Ill give you the direct download link of it that is on my website, at least until it pops up on this forum.

http://www.geocities.com/timfoxxy_236/lemmingland.zip

You should be able to play the level in both Lemmini and CustLemm, there are 2 files for each. Hope it helps

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2008, 09:54:41 AM »

Thanks again! This is really useful thread. I can use it bounce ideas and questions off the forum, and hopefully the answers might be of some use to other people who are learning to use Lemmix like myself.

I noticed that some of the original Dirt style Lemmings levels have gaps in the grass and stuff. It's amazing how, once you start constructing levels yourself, you notice how the original DMA levels suddenly look like they're made of bits and pieces, whereas before they seemed so seamless!

Tim · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2008, 12:13:35 PM »

Cool

By the way, you can also create your own graphics set for Lemmings. Some of us from another lemmings fan site already have a few new graphics sets of our own

Check out my levels at my YouTube page that ive made (I think you are going to like them lol) so far:
http://www.youtube.com/user/timfoxxy

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2008, 02:58:36 PM »

Me again.

More questions:

I noticed that the screen start seems to default at the far left of the screen. What's the easiest way to make it a bit more centralised? Is it possible to change the default?

It seems difficult to layer tiled objects/terrain correctly? Is there an easy way to change the layers (ie. which item is "on top" of the pile), without deleting them all and starting again from scratch? This would make creating neat terrain easier...

And finally: does everything have to fit into the space in pixels that are multiples of 8??? If so, this could be a potential nightmare... Surely there's an easier way...?

Thanks again!

geoo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2008, 05:42:05 PM »

The Inspector Window (F11) and Level Properties Window (F10) are particularly useful for various issues you named:
In the latter, set screen start to 640 = (1600-320)/2 for a centered screen start; I don't think that there is a default option for this though.

As for tile layering, the Inspector Window is of particular use: You can set the index value to have a tile appear in front or behind other tiles; higher value means in front of more tiles. You can also set the no-overwrite flag to ensure the tile is in the background. Same applies for objects, with the difference that they are always in front of terrain unless you set the no-overwrite flag. You can see the

On the Lemmix site you can read the key definitions; in order to move a tile a single pixel, hold Ctrl and the appropriate arrow key. You can also drag pieces with the mouse.
You should note that original Lemmings has some additional limitations: positions of steel areas have to be divisible by 4, and the x-coordinate of objects has to be divisible by 8. In View -> Trigger areas you'll see that objects' trigger areas' positions have to be divisible by 4 as well.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2008, 08:33:05 PM »

I'm still having trouble with trigger areas. Even with the rendering switched on, I can't even get something as simple as an exit lined up properly. They keep walking right past it...! What am I doing wrong?

Clam · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2008, 09:50:30 PM »

Trigger areas work when they come into contact with the lemmings' feet. That means they have to be IN the ground (i.e. overlapping with the terrain that the lemmings walk over) rather than on top of it. Some traps will work when lemmings fall into them (like the flamethrowers, for example) but most traps, as well as exits, require the lemmings to walk into them. If these are in the ground properly, they will also work when the lemmings fall into them - even if they would normally splat when they fall from that height

I look forward to playing your levels

Tim · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2008, 01:17:37 AM »

Yep what Clam posted is correct. You will notice that the only interactive object that works without having to be fiddled with is the entrance, as lemmings come out from it no matter what. Be careful where nearby terrain lies from the entrance, though. I think if you completely cover the entrance with a block or dirt, the lemmings appear at the top of that terrain (ill need to test that). For exits and traps, generally they need to be put at least one point/pixel into the terrain, and for best appearance of the level, behind the terrain too. Some exceptions are water and I think a few other traps from different tilesets.

A clever idea you could have a go at (if you want to) is to create a level with multiple "fake" exits and one real. This means to have one of the exits shoved "into the terrain" and the rest exactly even with the terrain. It will prove a nice challenge for us fans when we play the level

Clam · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2008, 07:21:44 AM »

That reminds me of something else - there is a limit to how many working triggers you can have in a level. Only objects with an "index" of 15 or lower will work (except trapdoors which work regardless, up to a maximum of 4 trapdoors per level). The rest are just scenery. One of the Xmas '93 levels ("Check your hints") takes advantage of this in creating its fake exits. If you make them "fake" by placing them slightly too high, you can just build up to them, though if there are no builders available it won't matter

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2008, 03:16:41 PM »

I'm really grateful for all your feedback so far.

At the moment I'm working on my first ever Lemmix-created level pack; it's intended to be a "demo" selection of 5 levels of various difficulty. Eventually the demo levels will be re-included in some bigger level packs which will range from the ridiculously simple and easy to some that are (hopefully) a bit more challenging. I'll be learning as I go...! *shrug*

I've just finished my very first level just before I came online to post this. :cool:

Thanks for the link, timfoxxy - very interesting vids! I was vaguely wondering if anyone had ever tried using the tilesets from Lemmings 2: The Tribes in the Lemmings 1 framework...

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2008, 04:53:27 PM »

I'm having a small problem with directional digging - I mean, the arrows for one-way digging... A miner just gives up after one slice, as if it's made of steel or something. But the arrows are going in the right direction. It's extra weird because I play-tested another level in a similar way and he mined through it just fine... I'm scratching my head.

Tim · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2008, 12:03:59 AM »

When you mined the first time with this, were the arrows going below the lemming's viewpoint? Or was it only above the ground? I think that if the arrows are completely above and below the miner that it may not work, but if only above then the lemming can still mine and bash through it.

Once again, I havent actually tested this myself, but it is possible. More opinions will help here

Clam · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2008, 02:13:44 AM »

Left one-way arrows can be mined but right one-way arrows can't. It's a bug in the game.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:05:47 AM »

A bug? Damn.

Well, that would explain it, because it was left arrows that were fine and the right arrows that aren't working. It's slightly aggrovating 'cos the level solution I had planned involves mining through a wall rather than bashing through it (which gives the solution away, but who cares)...!

Have any of you people encountered this problem before? How did you compensate, if at all...?

Another unrelated question: "Inverting" tiles involves creating a mirror image of them, and I know this can be used to vary terrain, etc. But how do I turn them upside down...?

geoo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 24, 2008, 02:16:31 PM »

Inverting actually turns them upside down. It's mirroring horizontally that is not possible.

As for a walkaround around that OWW bug, you could mirror the level if you only have OWWs into one direction, though that would be quite a bit of work.
I guess depending on how the level is designed, there also may be alternative solutions like removing the OWW and adding some gaps/steel areas to the terrain that make it impossible to bash/mine through the terrain without stopping in the middle from one side, yet allow mining in the other direction.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:09:34 PM »

Hmm... That's an interesting idea. For the time being instead of trying to modify the level I've taken the cheap way out and modified the skills - basically changing the solution to the level, hopefully without making it too easy.

My first ever Lemmix level pack is coming along nicely. I just finished my third level this afternoon. I keep tweaking them 'cos I can't let them go!

And I know that they're full of stupid mistakes and obvious shortcuts and backroutes, but I probably won't see them until somebody else playtests them for the first time.

I'm taking the time to make my levels pretty as well as functional, but the problem with that is that some of the "decorative" terrain interferes with the intended solution. Know what I mean?

Oh, another thing. I'm basically playtesting Lemmix with no sound, and therefore no music. What music will be on each level? How does it work...?

I'll ask more questions as I think of them. I'm getting into the Lemmix interface. Once you take the time to learn how to use it, it's actually quite easy!

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2008, 08:54:45 PM »

Gaaagh, I have a problem. I dunno if it's a glitch, but I can't validate my level because there's an object with a Y co-ordinate of 65531, which is stupidly high. And I can't delete it...

Edit: Problem solved. I've just finished my level pack. How do I upload it, and where do I go to do it, etc...?

Edit: I've just uploaded them on the Lemmings File Archive database! Hoorah! They're under weirdy00. Please play them and tell me what you think. Remember that they're my first, so be gentle.

But I also want some honest feedback and criticism. I'm not a pro Lemmings player like some people on the forum. Even if they're not the hardest levels, I only hope that they are enjoyable.

Thanks again for all your help and feedback so far.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #25 on:** August 25, 2008, 04:06:09 PM »

I've notified the forum about my level pack on the Custlemm Level Pack thread. Hope that's what I'm supposed to do.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #26 on:** September 02, 2008, 10:43:14 AM »

I don't know if anyone out there's still responding to this, but lately I've discovered that I'm having trouble cleanly and neatly creating one-way-walls. I can't change the sizes of the areas, so I'm forced to use small tiles to cover a wide area, if that makes any sense. The problem is, because there are so many trigger areas in use, Lemmix subtracts them from other areas, such as traps and/or water. How can I prevent this from happening?

geoo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 02, 2008, 06:12:57 PM »

I guess that's the problem with the limit for active objects: any objects' trigger area (apart from the entrance) will not works if its ID is higher than 15.
In case your entrance has a lower ID than 16, you might still free another spot, other than that you could only get around this by finding terrain/steel replacements for those OWWs.

Clam · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2008, 12:19:13 AM »

The top sections of exits don't need trigger areas, so that might free up another slot for your OWWs. Any traps or water that the lemmings can't get to can go without triggers too (though this probably won't help unless you have water stretching to the edge of the map).

Depending on the skills available in the level, you might be able to get away with putting working one-way arrows over a small section of the wall, and leaving the rest without trigger areas. For example, if you can't get up to the top of a wall (not enough builders or whatever), you can't bash through that part anyway, so it doesn't need a trigger area. It still looks the same with a fake OWW though.

Also note that some tilesets have bigger OWW sections than others, so if you need a large trigger area to prevent backroutes it might be a good idea to choose a tileset with 32x32 sections instead of 16x32.

-H0ru5- · « **Reply #29 on:** September 04, 2008, 12:05:21 PM »

Hello Everybody!

I never thought there's still a living site for Lemmings, i found only ruined pages in the past year... I'm so glad to meet you!

I'm a huge fan of the game; I played first time when I was 6 years old (although I saw somewhere it had got an 7+ age limit - well, killer icecones are pretty gross). I think in overall this game affected my psychical development in a good way...

It has bred me for patience, logic and a healthy maximalism.

I'm 20 now, and yes, I'm still love Lemmings, and I never get bored with this one. I completed the basic game, covox+official companion, ohno, xmas, holiday 93-94, tribes, chronicles, Garjen, Conway, Juanjo and Twpak in Custlemm, and my own pack, that's 924 levels behind me... that seemed to be much less

And excuse me for my occurrent grammar errors, I'm from Hungary...

I bugfixed my maps just the day before yesterday, and now they are ready for the upload... hope you will like it!
elfpak01

Tim · « **Reply #30 on:** September 04, 2008, 03:10:55 PM »

Welcome to the forum Horu5! Yes we are still active here, bits and pieces happening currently. At this stage Ive postponed attempting anyone's level packs until Ive finished creating my latest one! (some of the levels inside it are archive levels of at least 2 years ago that I never got to finish the whole pack back then) So Im trying my darn hardest to pick the best levels and create new ones even if they are easy ones! Im down to 2 levels left, I need one that is "fun" and another that is "tricky" (I will figure it out I hope).

Once all that is complete, I will have time to trying other member's levels at the same time as you all are trying out mine!

-H0ru5- · « **Reply #31 on:** September 04, 2008, 03:45:02 PM »

I agree with your words, I wouldn't do it any other way, too.

Good Luck to finish your pack, I'm looking forward to it! Although I would say 10 sunsoft-rated levels are more fun than real fun ones, but your choice.

weirdybeardy · « **Reply #32 on:** September 04, 2008, 07:26:45 PM »

Horu5: Welcome, welcome, welcome!

I was pretty surprised when I first stumbled across this site as well. When I learned about Customised Lemmings and the various clones and level editors, well, that was just the icing on the cake.

I've recently started constructing my own levels, hopefully to release the finished versions some time pretty soon. I'll try out your levels as soon as possible and get right back to you. 8)

Again: welcome! Good to see you.