Level Design Contest #33 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Crane]

I don't know whether I should be honoured or to apologise!  Don't feel too frustrated though - you've helped to make our levels better, and there are a lot of levels that I've struggled to complete, and sometimes failed to complete due to not seeing an obscure trick (I never sold Diamond Mine from the previous contest in the intended way).

When the playing phase is over, I'll post replays of all the intended solutions.

[JawaJuice]

No need to apologize! There are always gonna be a few levels one cannot complete with the intended solution (well maybe not for the absolute best solvers on the forum, but for most people). You just happened to have two of them in one contest XD I'll look forward to seeing your replays! See you on the Levels By Crane topic!

[kaywhyn]

Cheers! He hasn't confirmed yet, but I think I have now found the intended solutions for Icho's levels. I was surprised to backroute them too. I just normally take a path-of-least-resistance approach, rather than thinking about what the author might have intended, which sometimes leads to backroutes I guess! The exception to that was his R1 level. Initially, I couldn't really see how to do it at all, so it was more of an any-means-necessary approach, which I pretty much knew would be a backroute b/c who uses the basher/blocker trick as a key element to a solution? XD

There's one level by Turrican whose solution absolutely requires this combo. I'm not going to spoil which level it is, you'll have to figure it out for yourself! I believe two Lemmings Uncharted levels by Armani require it too, though I think he told me it's not necessary?

If you want to put it in spoilers, I'd be curious to know what others have found to be the hardest part of your R3 level, because the rest seemed relatively straightforward to me. Working out how to release those two lemmings that fall into the little well was the main headache.

I think Armani more or less said this was the hardest part as well, so apparently you're not alone there! It surprises me because I thought the setup here makes it easy to spot what's required here, but hey, what do I know regarding whether people find my levels easy or hard?

As I've said, I'd love to be a playtester on your upcoming pack, so bear me in mind when the time comes for testing!

Yup, absolutely! It's not going to be for a long time because, yea, I'm very slow when it comes to making levels. Not to mention 125 levels is a very overambitious goal I'll admit and I'm nowhere near the target even after almost a year

C++, now you're talking my language

I still have some of my homework assignments from the course, and I believe last year I installed Visual Studios on my machine again after so long. Some currently don't compile correctly and hence throw errors, but I would have to investigate the code I wrote on my end for those. This was a really long time ago, back in 2009, meaning it's been at least 16 years since I last did any coding/C++ programming. So, pretty much means I'm relearning the programming language due to the huge lapse in time from the last time I worked with it and Visual Studios.

Thank you so much again for playing my levels as well as the banter as you mentioned You'll definitely be seeing more from me in the future, but as mentioned there's Armani's LDC Compilation Pack you can play through for several of my past entries. That reminds me, I would like to submit some updates to replace some of my levels in it, since yea, I'm not necessarily proud of my earliest levels due to the poor visuals. Nowadays, I can't even look at those really early levels of mine without cringing at least once    

[JawaJuice]

Never say never... I must be a glutton for punishment, @Crane

[JawaJuice]

And another stab at R3!

[Crane]

Both backroutes unfortunately;

although...

You're getting close with R3.

[JawaJuice]

OK, let's go again!

[Crane]

Damn, now you're on a role.  Unfortunately they're backroutes that don't line up too well with what I'm intending.

[JawaJuice]

Ah man, either I'm being really obtuse (quite possible!) or you have created some levels here that it's so hard to discern what you intend the player to do that only the most battle-hardened NL vets are gonna be able to solve them XD At least I've cleared a bit of a path for folks in terms of them not wasting their time trying the same backroutes I have. I feel like I owe you an apology to keep causing you to update your levels, though I guess it's more of my time really ;-) Still, as you've learned by now, I don't give up easily

It says something when I'm having a break by playing Armani's levels from the Holiday 2024 pack though lol

Can you at least tell me whether I've ever been close with any of my previous attempts at The Lemming Ledger? I know you said I was close with Reverse Polarity before, but looks like I've gone backwards there.

[JawaJuice]

Here we go again

[JawaJuice]

And Reverse the Polarity... attempt 743

Spoiler

I really can't work out why I need two diggers, and that's probably why these will keep being backroutes until I do! Unless it's a red herring of course.

[Crane]

I admit I'm getting frustrated that I overlooked so many things, so much that even my V2 change for Lemming Ledger reopened a backroute that my playtester found before the playing phase.  I've streamlined things a bit for the V8 release.  As for Reverse the Polarity, the level is somewhat broken now, and the only fix I could think of was a rather ugly extra platform with a trap on it that probably opens up even more backroutes, knowing my luck!

I suppose to give a hint:

Blockers reverse the direction of lemmings regardless of what state they're in

[JawaJuice]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but is your hint supposed to be for R1 or R3, since both levels contain blockers?

I'm also sorry to cause you frustration; it might be better to admit that I'm simply just not on your wavelength for these two levels - it can happen. Mostly I am (even if it takes a while to get there a la Outside the Box 2), which is why I like your levels and persist with them, but I think my repeated attempts and failures at The Oubliette also showed that occasionally I just ain't gonna get there!

Nevertheless, I'll take a look at your updated levels, if only to check I can't backroute them for your peace of mind Not actually asking for any hints, it would just be good to know whether I've ever been on the right track with The Lemming Ledger, or whether every single attempt has been far from what you intended!

[JawaJuice]

OK, solved updated versions again.

Spoiler

RE: Your hint, still not sure which level it refers to, but it seems to me to imply an Oh Noer - that would refer to a blocker in a different state, i.e. in the process of exploding. If so, I suppose that must relate to The Lemming Ledger, but I can't see why that would be beneficial unless the explosion is also creating a path that was previously inaccessible.

My thoughts on my solutions, so you can see my working, as it were:

R1:

Spoiler

This is a solution I haven't tried before for The Lemming Ledger. From very early on, I always thought that thin piece of steel half way up the cliff face must serve a purpose and I believed that purpose was for a miner to mine backwards towards therefore closing off any way back. Until now though, I couldn't see a way to put it into practice - the lemmings were too close together and once I started bashing, a couple would always pass by before the miner tunnel was deep enough. What I've done here is extremely fiddly and precise though, which leads me to believe it's still a backroute but hopefully closer to your intended solution.

R3:

Spoiler

When you said I was close a couple of attempts ago, I took that to mean that my initial move of blocking the builder and immediately digging him out so that two lemmings go in opposite directions is correct. That would also tie into the title of Reverse the Polarity! This time I did need the additional digger because if the miner had continued on his trajectory, he would have landed on the platform and therefore, the newly added trap.