A problem

[DrLemmingsham]

Okay, now, first, if I posted this in the wrong forum I'm sorry, but I'm new here. So, I downloaded a full Sega version of Lemmings 2: The Tribes. And I wanted to make my own levels. So I downloaded a level editor (For lemmings 2) and, well, it wouldn't run! So I asked someone on another forum to help me, and one guy pretty much said that I couldn't make levels, but he put it in the form of, "Sorry, the level editor is only for the AMIGA lemmings 2." So uh.. Where can I find one that'll work on my computer? My computer is a Windows XP, unable to run "special" files (.DAT, .DLL, .LHA, etc) without special program to load them. So what on earth do I do? I'm starting to get desparet! :mikecry:

[covox]

You appear to have a Sega MegaDrive Lemmings 2 binary, and an Amiga Lem2Edit binary. Neither of which will work under Winders Expee without an emulator, and the editor would need an Amiga copy of Lemmings 2.

Sadly, no-one has been brave enough to write a Winders editor for Lemmings 2. But there is a Windows editor for the original Lemmings (Lemmix), and some people have recreated the engine to run on modern OSes (Lemmini, Tundra).

[Mr. K]

And the Amiga Lemmings 2 editor sucks.  I tried it.  Couldn't get it to import levels back into the game or anything.

Wish I knew more programming than Multimedia Fusion-- then, with some documentation of the L2 file format I'd try and make something.  But I can't do that. =/

[Mindless]

on this forum we've got all the talent we need to put together a Lemmings 2 level editor (and Lemmings 3 level editor for that matter)... we're just too lazy/busy

[DrLemmingsham]

What!?!? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!  :mikecry: :mikecry: :mikecry: :sad: :sad: :sad:

[DragonsLover]

Maybe with a bit of reverse engineering, it could be possible to modify all of the levels of Lemmings II. I tried on one under Dos and all I can only modify seems to be the titles of the levels. Maybe it is possible to edit the levels using the memory snapshots of LemII under Steem or WinUAE. Maybe.

[DrLemmingsham]

I don't want to CHANGE levels,  I want to make my own!!!

[DragonsLover]

But by modificating them, you could create your own! :angry:

Anyway, for now, the answer is "No, you can't create levels. The only way is to get an Amiga computer and taking the Lemmings II editor that sucks, as Mr.K said."

Why not creating original Lemmings levels instead? You can create Lemmings I levels using Lemmings II graphics with Cheapo Copycat.

[DrLemmingsham]

But by modificating them, you could create your own! :angry:

Anyway, for now, the answer is "No, you can't create levels. The only way is to get an Amiga computer and taking the Lemmings II editor that sucks, as Mr.K said."

Why not creating original Lemmings levels instead? You can create Lemmings I levels using Lemmings II graphics with Cheapo Copycat.

WHAT!?!? Why didn't you say so the first time? Where can I get Cheapo Copycat!?!? :undecided: :huh2: :huh:

[DragonsLover]

Here!

There's already the Beach style included and I think there's the Circus style for download somewhere. However, if you want the others, you have to create them by taking screenshots of the landscapes of Lemmings II and creating your own tiles. The way to create a style is included in a DOC file in the Docs folder. There you could create your own levels of Lemmings II but with the gameplay of Lemmings I (you cannot have all the skills of Lemmings II, just the normal ones). However, you can create anti-grav levels where Lemmings are walking on the ceiling.

[DrLemmingsham]

However, if you want the others, you have to create them by taking screenshots of the landscapes of Lemmings II and creating your own tiles. The way to create a style is included in a DOC file in the Docs folder.

Err what? What Doc folder or file or... What are you talking about? I am no programmer whatsoever. What I did is I went to "Gamfabrique.com" and downloaded Lemmings 2: The Tribes. I installed it, and found it was the Sega version. It didn't come with any Doc files or doc folders. Just the program and nothing more.

[DragonsLover]

I meant the DOC file inside the Docs folder of the Cheapo Copycat Lemmings directory: "Custom Style File.doc".

[DrLemmingsham]

I meant the DOC file inside the Docs folder of the Cheapo Copycat Lemmings directory: "Custom Style File.doc".

Whoa... I found it, but it's too confusing. I have no idea how to program, code, or anything technical. I took a computer geek quiz, and my result was "Technical Support Nightmare." Ya know why? I had know clue how to program or anything. And it's true! I need help!

[Mr. K]

Cheapo's "programming" as you call it is actually pretty simple.  It's more like a guide that tells the game "okay, this goes here and this goes here.  Ja?"

And just because you can't program doesn't mean you're a tech support nightmare... my parents couldn't code a "Hello, World" program (usually used as a 'your first program' example in most programming languages) to save their lives and yet are otherwise computer literate...

This makes me remember how much I wish Dimwits would show signs of at least being worked on.

[DragonsLover]

Yeah, don't worry! Coding style files are quite really easy! Just read carefully the document and you should have no problem. The trick is: refers to it while you are at the step of coding. Because, first, you'll have to create BMP files of the different graphic parts of your levels, for example: blocks, bushes, walls, obstacles; and objects, like: trapdoor, exit, water, traps...

[geoo]

on this forum we've got all the talent we need to put together a Lemmings 2 level editor (and Lemmings 3 level editor for that matter)... we're just too lazy/busy

Just wondering, is the level/gfx format known? Assuming that there's a level converter Amiga->DOS out there I guess it is. In case it weren't, I'd give it a shot.
Is it known to anybody here?

[DrLemmingsham]

I think I've figured out hw to run the Amiga one! All I need is an Amiga Emulator that doesn't need Kickstart Roms. I'm too cheap to buy them. (Yeah, I admit it )

[Mindless]

Just wondering, is the level/gfx format known?

Yes, the graphics format is partially.

After decompression, the STYLE/*.dat files are IFF files:

Code: [Select]

4 bytes -> file identifier
big-endian double-word -> file size (excluding 8 bytes so far)
4 bytes -> file type

4 bytes -> section 1 type
big-endian double-word -> section 1 size (excluding 8 bytes so far)
<section 1 size> bytes -> section 1 data

...

4 bytes -> section n type
big-endian double-word -> section n size (excluding 8 bytes so far)
<section n size> bytes -> section n data
Each data section contains a different type of data.
The L2CL section is the palette (2 bytes of garbage followed by 128 3-byte RGB sets).
The L2BL section is the tile set (2 bytes of garbage followed by an arbitrary number of 128-byte, encoded tiles).
The other sections I have not analyzed.

I really cannot explain algorithms aside from using code

Code: [Select]

do
  p = 0
  for v = 0 to 3
    for y = 0 to 7
      for x = 0 to 3
        pset ((x * 4) + v, y), d[p]
        p += 1
      next
    next
  next
  d += 128
loop(d is a byte pointer to the current tile, pset is a pixel setting function)

I might be wrong about the garbage bytes.

[DragonsLover]

On Lemmings Universe, there's a "Lemmings II Level Encoder/Decoder". However, the link of the file is dead. Where could I get it?

[geoo]

As it is called lemzip, I guess that's the programme to compress/decompress the .dat files.
You can get it from Mindless' page: http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/tools.php
I guess it is better to use Mindless' lem2zip as according to the readme:

LEM2ZIP differs from LEMZIP (coded by Hermann Schinagl), because
LEM2ZIP is always successful when compressing.

Ah ok, that's nice (and I guess the best way to decribe an algorithm is code ). Then I'll take a look at the level format first.
(the save.dat format is really simple)

[geoo]

Despite my utter lack of programming skill, I managed to write a program to display the lemmings 2 graphics from the L2BL section of the respective styles as Mindless described. I saved the graphics in .png format: http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2gfx.zip
The colorful line on top is the palette, each sprite is 16*8px.

As for the level format, I figured it out apart from a few bytes: http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2level.txt
@Mindless: just in case you want to add this description to your site, feel free to edit it as it might require some clean-up in that case.

[DrLemmingsham]

O......kay..... How do I use them?

[geoo]

Well, as for the graphics, they are for your viewing pleasure...and if you want to edit levels manually (using a hex-editor), the order represents the terrain piece ID, i.e. the n-th piece has the ID n.

As for the level format documentation, it could help you if you want to edit levels manually or write an editor.

EDIT: Uhh, I'm Egyptian lemming now. :shocked: I quite like the tribe, but I prefered the green though, Outdoor is my favourite tribe.

[DrLemmingsham]

Well, as for the graphics, they are for your viewing pleasure...and if you want to edit levels manually (using a hex-editor), the order represents the terrain piece ID, i.e. the n-th piece has the ID n.

As for the level format documentation, it could help you if you want to edit levels manually or write an editor.

EDIT: Uhh, I'm Egyptian lemming now. :shocked: I quite like the tribe, but I prefered the green though, Outdoor is my favourite tribe.

:huh: And what on earth is a hex editor?
EDIT: I've got one, but I have no clue how to get it into the editor. I have no programming/coding/hex editing skill at all. I don't even know any programmers! HELP!!!

[DragonsLover]

Wow!

An hex editor is an hexadecimal editor. It's a tool that can edit bytes of anything. You just need to open your hex program, open a file, and edit by yourself.

Ok, first, you'll surely see a lot of numbers everywhere. These are called bytes (quite evident, no?)

Now, look at "l2level.txt", you'll see the coordinates where are stocked the infos of the uncompressed levels. For example: from byte 0 to byte 3, there's "FORM". From byte 4 to byte 7, it's the file size. And so on... In your hex editor, you should see the coordinates of the bytes somewhere.

In hexadecimal, values are from 00 (0) to FF (255) and can even use multiple bytes like 00 00 (0) to FF FF (65535) or FF FF FF (16 777 215).

[DrLemmingsham]

WHAT!?!? I jsut want to make levels! I don't understand all that stuff! ARRGGHHH!!!! 

[ccexplore]

Look, just give it a rest and wait until someone creates a level editor for Lemmings 2.  Or stick with Lemmings-1-style levels and create them with LemEdit or Lemmix or Cheapo.

[DrLemmingsham]

When can someone make one? :huh:

[Mr. K]

If you're that worried about it, learn the hex editing stuff. It's not that complicated after a while.

[ccexplore]

Yeah, but no one would want to edit levels with a hex editor (except maybe to change the skill distribution or the title or something minor); you can't see how your changes work out w/o having to bring up the game.

Anyway, looking at my old e-mails, Lemmix (one of the most recent level editors in existence) took about one and a half month from project start to the first public alpha.  But that's from someone's who's dedicated and enthusiastic.  Right now it doesn't look like anyone (who has the ability) is itching to write a level editor for Lemming 2, so if we double the time (which is still rather conservative), I'd say 3 months from now.

[DrLemmingsham]

Yeah, but no one would want to edit levels with a hex editor (except maybe to change the skill distribution or the title or something minor); you can't see how your changes work out w/o having to bring up the game.

Anyway, looking at my old e-mails, Lemmix (one of the most recent level editors in existence) took about one and a half month from project start to the first public alpha.  But that's from someone's who's dedicated and enthusiastic.  Right now it doesn't look like anyone (who has the ability) is itching to write a level editor for Lemming 2, so if we double the time (which is still rather conservative), I'd say 3 months from now.

WHOA! But still, I'd still get one, right? Either way, THANK YOU!!! *Starts dancing around the room*

[EricLang]

You never know.
My gaming days as World of Warcraft seem to be almost over.
I'm starting another Lemmings project soon again. Starting to itch again

[geoo]

Finally got around to have a closer look at the Style files for the Lemmings 2 GFX.
My documentation is a bit messy on first glance, but I hope everything is understandable (feel free to ask if something is not):
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2gfx.txt
Interestingly enough, this file inludes how the sprites (http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2gfx.zip) are linked to tiles (tree, wall block, etc.) which is actually not needed for the level format, however comes in handy for writing an editor.

I don't know what the L2OB section is supposed to contain, and I don't know exactly about the L2SS section, though it seems to be related to the cannon gfx. I made an illustration/interpretation for some stuff I found in this section (the gfx stored as describes are the ones with pink border): http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/L2SS.PNG Yet I don't know how exactly this is related to the cannon.

Linking again, the level format description:
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2level.txt
and the save file format:
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2save.txt

Apparently no-one has started writing an editor, and I'm utterly lacking programming skill for writing one. No matter whether anyone is going to do or not, I'll try to start learning some stuff on programming with graphical output (WinAPI?, whatever), and while that might take ages, after these ages have passed by I might give it a shot if no-one else is aiming for it. But note that the program would likely be crappy and unprofessional, and as said, only released within ages, literally.

[EricLang]

Working now on the new Lemmix, which will be able to do more than ever (Patience needed!)
So I'm interested in this stuff Geo! I'll study it

[geoo]

Nice to hear that. If you have any questions about the documentation, feel free to ask.

I don't know where the data for the cannon and the chains of the swing is stored yet, and did not yet describe how the length of the swing/cannon is determined in the level format; I'll add the latter soon though (I hope).

EDIT: Forgot to say, I'll be off for two weeks starting on Sunday.

[EricLang]

I managed to extract the terraindata. I found a few minor errors in the docs, but will let you know which ones later.
We need a lot of hacking to do before we can edit levels.

[geoo]

I'm back from my two weeks' absence.

I had taken a book on OpenGL with me, and what I read would provide me a base to write a simple, difficult-to-handle editor. Back home, I guess I'll fiddle around with it a bit with it, and perhaps use displaying tiles and such as introduction into using the features.
Maybe I'll approach writing an editor like that, but please don't feel discouraged in case I do, Eric. I'd rather be a test on programming for me, not as much a proper editor to use.
Take your time, I'm sure your editor will be as superb as your one for Lemmings 1 once you get it done.

Oh, and please point out those mistakes in my docs that I can fix them. They are overall a bit messy, but I don't know how to make them more clear. Any suggestions?

[geoo]

Just for the record, graphics of the terrain/background tiles that are linked together from 16x8 sprites as specified in the L2BE section. Just the tiles for each style in one *.png image as my graphical progamming skills don't go beyond displaying the sprites and taking screenshots from that: http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2tiles.zip

[Mindless]

can you display the animation frames of the sprites?  or has that information not been decoded yet?

edit: also, I've finally put your file format descriptions up on my site

[geoo]

Thank you. They are still a bit messy, so I should tidy them up sometime.

As for the animation frames, I know the format they are stored in (unless I did some mistake in figuring it out). I might be able to produce the images by tomorrow (Friday) evening.

[geoo]

Well, there you go: http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2obj.zip

Interestingly enough there seem to be a couple of graphics that haven't been used in the original levels. OTOH, some objects are not stored there, so I guess they are stored in some of the sections I don't know the format of.

Forgot to say, if anyone wants the code/programs I used to produce these images I'd give it away of course; but I discourage this as (1) the program might be instable (2) it is not platform compatible (I think) (3) the code shows my embarrassing programming skills. Yet perhaps the code snippets for extracting the data from the gfx files might be of use.

[Mindless]

awesome, now somebody needs to make Lemmini/Tundra themes from these

[geoo]

I've managed to figure out the structure of the L2OB section now.
I don't know the meaning of every single byte, but it is sufficient to infer from the data how the objects are built up from the animated sprites.
The only problems of course are the cannon and that chain thingie as their graphics are likely stored in the L2SS section I don't know much about.

EDIT: Got some ideas about the L2SS section; well, this is what is stored in that section for the Classic tribe:

[Mindless]

EDIT: Got some ideas about the L2SS section; well, this is what is stored in that section for the Classic tribe:

haha... an easter egg

[geoo]

Well, finally found out the format of the gfx stored in the l2ss section, at least to a degree sufficient to display the sprites.
It's overly complicated, and literally, a lot of crap in there.

Here are the graphics, as .png, as usual: http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2ss.zip
I think everything looks pretty allright, yet it might be possible that there are some flaws in it. Funky pink background as otherwise it'd be difficult to distinguish the two shades of white (background & belonging the sprite).
On of the frames of the medieval tribe's dragon looks screwed, but it seems that this frame of the animation is not used.
The chains of that chain thingie appear to be stored somewhere else. As it is the same for every style (I think), I guess it is stored in some other file.

Will update the docs asap; I guess the information is sufficient for writing an editor (only problem the chain thingie): Eric, where are you? :wink:

[BulletRide]

i Really hope this gets completed. a lemmings 2 editor would be sick, and provide alot more variety in levels.

[geoo]

Ok, I finally updated my lemmings 2 format descriptions to make them not as messy as they were before. No new additions for the level/save file format, but quite a major update on the gfx format. Latter has been made a lot clearer as well as the descriptions for the L2OB (structure complete, meaning of some bytes missing) and L2SS sections have been added. @Mindless, update the files again please and at the very least for the gfx description add your name to the credits.

http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2gfx.txt
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2level.txt
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2save.txt

As for the unknown bytes of the L2OB section, I added some scrap notes to some, but I don't consider them of great importance anyways.
In case anyone wants to investigate one them some more, I've got a text file with those bytes arranged according to the structure for better overview for 4 tribes and some vague scrap notes (likely not of much use):
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/l2ob.txt

[DragonsLover]

Something new after all that time, geoo89?

Anyway, I tested something and I really laughed : if you put the Attractor skill in a level of the Classical Tribe and give it to a lemming, something strange will happen : the lemming will animate like if he died with a fire trap and the animation will loop constantly. As for the lemmings around, instead of dancing, they are all constantly stunned (like if they land from an high spot forever)! Funny bug!

[geoo]

Haha, I just checked that out, indeed funny.

As for my progress, well, my abitilites have reached a level by now I can write a program that has a circle rotate on a circular track while constantly changing its color...still quite some steps to go...

[Mr. K]

Yeah, but no one would want to edit levels with a hex editor (except maybe to change the skill distribution or the title or something minor); you can't see how your changes work out w/o having to bring up the game.

Anyway, looking at my old e-mails, Lemmix (one of the most recent level editors in existence) took about one and a half month from project start to the first public alpha.  But that's from someone's who's dedicated and enthusiastic.  Right now it doesn't look like anyone (who has the ability) is itching to write a level editor for Lemming 2, so if we double the time (which is still rather conservative), I'd say 3 months from now.

I can back you up on that... remember my LemEdit pack? The truth is, entirely made in a hex editor. It was a fucking nightmare. (I didn't have access to LemEdit or anything at the time, I just had Windows Lemmings and a hex editor)