Level Design Contest #29 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

Hm, I think it would be best to focus getting rid of a skill slot and cull the swimmer hatch - or make a 2nd hatch and limit the swimmer hatch to 1 lem (even though that fix is a bit dirtier).

[kaywhyn]

Hm, I think it would be best to focus getting rid of a skill slot and cull the swimmer hatch - or make a 2nd hatch and limit the swimmer hatch to 1 lem (even though that fix is a bit dirtier).

Doh, of course! Why didn't I think of it before? Instead of a swimmer hatch, I could have preplaced Lemmings with the swimmer ability! I haven't used preplaced Lemmings since the very first LDC I participated in, LDC #22, with your R2 of just NL skills and no classical features, and so you can tell that I'm not used to them at all, particularly since I've been more careful with my more recent levels with not using pickups as fixes! Apparently I didn't learn all there is to take away from playing your United pack So, thanks for the reminder!

You're close, though. My intended route requires two swimmers, not one

So, for V12 a bit of an overhaul:

- Entrance is no longer a swimmer hatch and instead there are now two preplaced Lemmings that are swimmers.

- Changed up the wooden staircase near the entrance, as I discovered shortly after uploading V11 that Armani's cheesy backroute still works with a minor adjustment.

- More steel added to prevent getting under the trap, which is another major source of backroutes

Again, not confident that these changes will be enough, and it might not be possible to enforce my solution completely. If it turns out to be so, then I will accept some variants here that I would consider close enough. Not yet, though

[Armani]

Here's my new solution
I normally see a glimpse of how the intended solution looks even when I backroute a level, but not this one.
It felt like I have too many powerful skills.

[kaywhyn]

Here's my new solution
I normally see a glimpse of how the intended solution looks even when I backroute a level, but not this one.
It felt like I have too many powerful skills.

Well, it doesn't help that my intended solution is complicated too, and the harder the solution, the better the chances of backroutes. But yea, I think, in addition, we know from experience that the more skills we provide, the more likely backroutes will come up I really should had came up with an easier solution for this level like both you and Icho have for your R2's

Anyway, for V13, some big changes: shifted the rope net 3 pixels to the right so that you need to find some other way to deal with the lone zombie, changed some OWAs to downward ones on the wooden pillars, as well as changed the left to right pointing ones on the left wooden pillar, and finally shifted some terrain underneath and around the entrance 2 pixels down. Even if this doesn't exactly get us there to the intended route, I would think it at least could get us pretty close, but hey, I've been proven wrong so many times  

[Armani]

This looks better!
I have a gut feeling that I somehow need to get rid of the lone zombie at the top, but I couldn't found an efficient way to do so...

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Not quite there yet, but we're definitely much closer towards what I intended. After a really long brainstorming session tonight, there's one particular area that I couldn't think of a way to stop some unintended stuff, so depending on how bad solutions I get are, I either have probably reached my limit in fixing the level up or I might just try 1 or 2 more versions after this one before calling them acceptable. I did think of some drastic skillset changes and I thought I was onto something, but sadly one of the skill types that I took away at least one of it is needed, it seems

For V14, more OWAs and flipped the right ones at the top to left ones. I'm pretty certain the level can still be cheesed in the same places as in your solution, but well, my head hurts right now and I'll just see where to go from here with the new solutions I get. 

[kaywhyn]

Disregard the changes for V14 for my R2 in the above post,, as I have now uploaded a V15 which features another really big overhaul/reworking of the level after some deep thinking. In particular, I was successful in getting rid of two skill slots and replace them with two different types!

- Skillset changes: No walkers and blockers now and instead +4 jumpers, +1 platformer, +1 basher, +1 stacker, +2 swimmers, and -1 miner

- Along with the above, -1 preplaced Lemming and the lone preplaced Lemming is now just a regular one.

- Entrance is now a right-facing one

- Added another rope terrain and removed some OWAs

- Modified the wooden staircase near the entrance and shifted the taller pillar several pixels to the left

Again, even if this doesn't get the intended solution exactly, I would like to think we are at least much closer to it than ever before, but I should wait and get solutions first!

[IchoTolot]

This seems still like a backroute.

[kaywhyn]

I knew I should had kept those down OWAs in Not to mention that you told me a long time ago that reverting a change could quite possibly open up the same backroutes again! Well, for V16 back in they go, and in addition the preplaced Lemming has also been moved  

[IchoTolot]

Maybe a bit better

[IchoTolot]

Updated the replay for geoo's entry.

[kaywhyn]

Maybe a bit better

Nah, not too much better at all One last thing I want to try before I might possibly resort to pickups for V18, if needed. For V17, the right OWAs were removed and instead the down OWAs on the wooden pillars were extended to where they used to be. Because of this change I'm thinking the solution is way too obvious now, but well, sometimes that's the way it goes with very broken levels that can't really be patched up easily. Also, I've been proven wrong on this last point many times!

I also have an updated replay for geoo's R2 but it's pretty much the same as the previous solution, just my Lix was much further from the point of the bomber assignment and therefore wouldn't get flung whether or not it's a bomb flinger skill like in the previous version.

[Armani]

more solutions

Regarding the second solution: If you are going to block this by making the exit area higher(or the starting platform lower), keep in mind that I have an unused stacker so I can go even higher.
The first solution uses most of the skills but still doesn't use the second swimmer though.

[kaywhyn]

more solutions

Regarding the second solution: If you are going to block this by making the exit area higher(or the starting platform lower), keep in mind that I have an unused stacker so I can go even higher.
The first solution uses most of the skills but still doesn't use the second swimmer though.

Thanks for the analysis! For V18, more spike traps and extended the arrows on the pillar near the entrance. I'm somewhat hopeful that this is finally it, but I think either you or Icho will still prove me wrong

[IchoTolot]

New solution!