Author Topic: [QUESTION] Shimmiers don't climb up from sloped ceilings without a straight wall  (Read 730 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

This level involved a Shimmier climbing up from a Laserer tunnel, using the new behaviour where Shimmiers can turn and climb up corners.
What I didn't expect was that a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top, so the lemming doesn't transition into a Climber there - and hence, also doesn't turn around, but falls off the sloped ceiling once it ends, just like Shimmiers used to do when reaching a straight edge of a ceiling, too.

A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.
Diagonal Shimmier-friendly ceilings only have a single pixel at the top, and hence, a shimmying Climber will not turn around here, but simply fall off the ceiling and continue facing the same direction.



In sum, I'd say this is a good thing, as on this particular level, it required me to use another skill to create a second pixel there, in order to make the Shimmier climb and turn around.
The level became more challenging as a result, which is welcome, since it's supposed to go on the final rank of whatever pack eventually emerges from this.

I just wanted to remind everyone of this behaviour, and check whether it might be a bug, so that, if that's the case, I don't make more levels relying on this 1-pixel difference. :)
Don't worry, I'm not actually creating pixel-precise solutions here - rather, the difference of one pixel in terrain makes a conceptual difference here: It defines whether you need to use another skill to make the Shimmier climb and turn, or whether the terrain by itself will already cause him to climb and turn.

Personally, I think it makes sense that a Shimmier needs at least two pixels in height above him (i.e., the smallest vertical wall possible, since a single pixel is not a wall yet) in order to transition into a Climber. Now, in hindsight, I think I even recall WillLem having mentioned this requirement when he first introduced this skill-mechanical change.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

You could always have added it to the styles yourself for testing purposes ;P

a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top

What do you mean by "at the top" here? Can you provide a visual example? It would make discussion of this somewhat easier, as I'm not 100% sure what the issue is here.

A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.

Correct, well spotted. This is so that Shimmiers don't immediately transition to Climbers when Shimmying up a 45-degree tunnel.

Offline Strato Incendus

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I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

You could always have added it to the styles yourself for testing purposes ;P

I wasn’t sure whether the styles from 2.5 would still be compatible with 2.6. ;)
Also, namida once deliberately omitted the majority of the styles for a release candidate, to disincentivise people from creating level packs for non-stable versions of NeoLemmix.

Quote from: WillLem
a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top

What do you mean by "at the top" here? Can you provide a visual example? It would make discussion of this somewhat easier, as I'm not 100% sure what the issue is here.

All I meant is that Laserers created 45-degree slopes, too. Thus, if you laser through a rectangular block of terrain, the ceiling of the Laserer tunnel will always end in a triangle, just like the triangular slopes from any of the polygon-based Lemmings 2: The Tribes tilesets.

Quote from: WillLem
A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.

Correct, well spotted. This is so that Shimmiers don't immediately transition to Climbers when Shimmying up a 45-degree tunnel.

Ah, that was the information I needed, thanks a lot! :thumbsup: This makes perfect sense, and even suggests there is no other way of doing this.
Otherwise, the Shimmier would turn around on each pixel of a 45-degree tunnel.

I guess the reason this doesn’t come up in Lemmings 2: The Tribes is because Shimmiers there can’t shimmy up 45-degree ceilings to begin with; instead, that is the Rock Climber’s purpose. A Shimmier who is also a Rock Climber will probably turn around immediately upon encountering a 45-degree ceiling in Lemmings 2: The Tribes — if that slope points upwards. If the slope is tilted downwards, an L2 Shimmier will probably just fall down.

But I haven’t tried this out yet in the Lemmings 2 engine; if I recall correctly, it’s not too easy to find a spot in any of the four practice levels where one could try out this specific sequence of skills. (I remember toying around in the Egyptian practice level, trying to test out all of these interactions; but it’s hard to find a suitable spot, and secondly, get a lemming to that spot, too.)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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But I haven’t tried this out yet in the Lemmings 2 engine; if I recall correctly, it’s not too easy to find a spot in any of the four practice levels where one could try out this specific sequence of skills

I used the snow level, there's a chunk of terrain at the far right that can be relatively easily set up to test Shimmier/Climber/etc interactions.