Author Topic: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022  (Read 9017 times)

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2022, 01:14:55 AM »
Frenzy rank completed, so I'm back with more replays/feedback ;)

Frenzy Rank Feedback

Despite being the third rank and being after Devious, overall the rank felt easier than Devious. This really means they can switch positions, though that's likely due to the level ordering being far from perfect here. In any case, bunch of great levels here, even if most were on the easier side! I nearly got caught out on another one of Fleech's levels in this rank, they're deceivingly tough!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Halfway through the pack now and am definitely still enjoying it and having a blast! :thumbsup: Looking forward to the second half which will likely provide quite a challenge in contrast to the first half.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2022, 11:20:46 AM »
Finally solved all of the Pain rank, so I'm back with more replays and feedback :thumbsup:

Pain Rank Feedback

Levels are definitely getting hard now! Solving times in general slowed considerably here, and I had to think for a while on many of these, even if some of them are ones I've seen before. Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've played the ones I remember and hence due to the lapse of time I don't remember how I solved it.

Geoo's Pain 28 I was stuck on the longest despite seeming very simple for a miners only level. I'm currently of the opinion that it's too difficult for the Pain rank, even after solving the rest of the rank. Granted, there are a lot of hard levels after Pain 28, but they don't come anywhere near the difficulty of the aforementioned level. I've done some readings around the Forums, and it seems to be very split on this level, where some will find it easy, while others will find it very hard. I am of course in the latter camp. I have checked the replay that can be downloaded for the pack, and the solution isn't complicated, but it's extremely difficult to come up with a solution and also hard to conceptualize. I consider this a very advanced compression method and hence that increases the difficulty of the level significantly. However, Crane has found a lose 2 solution to the level, so nice job to him for that! :thumbsup: The replay I viewed is almost a lose 2 solution too, but unfortunately the final lemming gets caught by the sucker trap and appears to be a frame too early :laugh:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Two more ranks to go and as usual I'm continuing to enjoy this pack very much. It's been really nice seeing levels from various designers, many from ones I've not heard of, and most importantly a lot of these have been very enjoyable challenges! Looking forward to the remainder of the pack, though as of now I have solved up to the first 8 levels of the Carnage rank :thumbsup: Will post two more times after I complete each of the final two ranks. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2022, 06:06:18 AM »
Carnage rank all solved, so back with more replays and feedback ;)

Carnage Rank Feedback

Even harder levels here for the most part, with some breathers here and there, usually from levels that I remembered from the Lemmini version of the pack, although even some of these took a while to get solved mostly because it's been a while since I've seen and played them and hence I don't always have the solution remembered. And of course, more true gems here, especially from the new levels that I haven't seen before. There are levels by certain authors that seem to stump me badly every time, most notably geoo's, Fleech's, and Yawg's. Granted, their levels in general are very hard, but they do have some easy levels too, but even these can be challenging and not comfortably fall into easy territory.

Something that I've noticed happening constantly in my LP, and that is I keep forgetting the save requirement while playing/solving. Because I'm a player who still internalizes saving everyone, you can imagine levels where you're allowed a loss or some get me into trouble a lot, especially if it's required/expected to lose some, not just acceptable. It does make me wonder if it needs to stand out better on the UI while in-level, though to be fair I generally don't pay too much attention to the numbers above the skill panel area. Also, I believe it's customizable by the player? Perhaps it's just there's a lot of green and so it doesn't stand out from the other stuff too well. Sadly, green is my favorite color, so I likely still wouldn't change that to suit me better while playing :laugh:

The biggest dumbest moment is Carnage 22, as not paying attention to the save requirement caused me to spend an unnecessary hour or so on the level when I had the solution the entire time in the first few minutes of the level. Granted, this happened on a few other levels prior to this one and hence I waste unnecessary time, most notably on levels where I keep thinking I need to save climbers. Yea, levels where you're allowed to lose 1 or some will definitely get me into trouble every time, but only when I don't pay close attention to the save requirement. :(

As a result of what I described in the paragraph above, I often find myself giving an oral reminder that I'm allowed a loss or some at the start of each level. When the save requirement is the same as the total number of lemmings, this isn't a problem, as I generally try and go for save all's whenever possible. Even better that all the levels I've played thus far (210/240 levels, meaning I've played up through Armageddon 10 as of this post) are restricted to just the classic 8 skills.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One rank left, so this pack might be done within a day or so. I've already solved up through Armageddon 10, so 30 levels left. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2023, 05:28:45 AM »
The Armageddon rank is finally completely solved after haven been stuck on the final level for 4 months, so level pack all solved :thumbsup: My complete replay collection is attached and of course more feedback but just for the final rank of course ;)

Armageddon Rank Feedback

The final rank of the pack, these are pretty much supposed to be the hardest levels of the pack. While there are still some levels from Lemmini here, plenty of these are completely new which I haven't seen before in earlier versions of RotL. Many of these levels really tested my solving abilities, culminating in the final level, which I recently found out is also the final level of the Lixforum pack. It's not the hardest level of the pack despite being the last level, but it's definitely one of the hardest levels, and I'm not saying that because of how I got stuck on this level for 4 months :P In a way, I feel this is a great level to finish off the pack, especially since the music track that plays on this level has the right "final feel" to it. It's upbeat but at the same time gives off a mysterious feeling of the unpredictable after the first several seconds of it playing. IIRC the pack uses the standard rotation specified in the music.nxmi file, and how lucky it happens to be in the right spot for this music track as the pack's finale.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All rightie, glad to finally wrap up the series for good here with my LP that I left incomplete for 4 months due to Armageddon 40. Once again, I want to thank mobius for putting together this "best of the NL community up to about 2012 or so" and that we now have a New Formats NL version of the pack :thumbsup: It was a blast playing through it, and I especially enjoyed the new levels that aren't found in earlier versions of RotL predating New Formats NL.

However, I feel like there's still plenty of work that can be done to make the pack better. In particular, updating the pack to fix backroutes and level reordering to make the difficulty curve better. mobius has said that he doesn't plan on updating levels anymore due to backroutes but has also stated that anyone else is free to step up and do so. I think I would be all right with taking the reins, though for sure with some help with testing/finding levels for consideration for addition. I remember Proxima saying that he has some suggestions for some levels that could possibly be included, so feel free to post them! ;) One thing is because mobius put the pack together, in a way I don't want to invalidate his work by putting more levels in, so maybe they could go into the Outakes pack instead? I'm not opposed to putting more in the main pack at all, but which pack to put them in is definitely open for discussion! At the same time, I believe the Outakes also has 240 levels, so both are already quite huge.

For backroutes, I say for the levels of authors who are still active feel free to post updates to your levels if you deem my solution a backroute. Like Proxima, I don't think it's fair for those designers whose levels won't be fixed anymore for backroutes because mobius isn't updating the pack anymore due to such, especially since this is supposed to be a showcase of the "best of the NL community from around 2012 and before." Thus, these authors should be allowed to fix/update them if they want due to them being their property and so that we continue to improve the pack :thumbsup:

@Crane I know you have already told me which levels of yours I backrouted, so again feel free to post your updates if you like! :thumbsup:

For those who aren't active, I might try my hand at a fix with some discussion if necessary.

There's also level reordering. The ordering is definitely better than, say, Lemmini's for example, where the difficulty of the Picnic rank was very wonky and all over the place, but some work can be done here for the New Formats NL version to make it better still. In particular, there are some levels that I think are massive difficulty spikes. For example, there appears to be consensus about Picnic 29 being out of place in the first rank. I'm in agreement here, it definitely doesn't belong in the first rank. I checked Lemmini's version, and it's in the 3rd rank. So, maybe it can swap with a level that's easy in that rank, but which one? I used the same solution in both NL and Lemmini, but it's much easier to pull off on the latter because of the differing RR mechanics. So, this level definitely needs to move out of the Picnic rank.

geoo's Merge Sort in the Pain rank would be another, at least for me it was. I'll have to go through the remainder of the rank, but IIRC the remaining Pain levels weren't as hard. So, if anything perhaps rather than moving it further down the rank it might be better to uprank the level. At the same time, some will find it easy but others will find it hard, with the latter only if you're not aware of how to pull off the "core idea of the solution." This is where geoo's input would be helpful, as I'm not sure what kind of feedback he's gotten about this level of his from others who might had played it.

There is one level in particular I would like to discuss, and that is Armageddon 20. As Crane noted, this is the only level of the pack that uses pickups, and with a pack that only uses the classic 8 skills and no NL exclusive features of any kind, I'm with him here in that we either remove the level or modify it some more so that it doesn't use pickups. However, I'm not certain if anyone knows what the intended solution is, and I acknowledge it might even be impossible to force a specific solution without pickups. Sometimes, that's the way it is with some levels, but I definitely feel iffy about this level being the only one in the pack with pickups.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2023, 11:05:54 PM »
Here are the replays for the Revenge of the Lemmings Outtakes, Still some backroutes.

Only 1 level I can't solve. Yawg's "The Brick". Can't see how to solve it. Outtakes level 230.

Here are the replays and

Yawg's level The Brick. Can anybody else solve it?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2023, 11:55:23 AM »
Replay for Yawg's "The Brick" attached.

Also link to my video solution of the level: https://youtu.be/eQIPTgEoWB0

Without having looked at any other level of the Outakes pack, this one is likely to be the hardest level. It took me probably close to 2-2.5 hours to find this solution. My entire solution requires a lot of precision and to do so requires a lot of RR fiddling. I still managed to spare a floater and basher in the end while only taking a little less than 1.5 minutes to solve, meaning plenty of time to spare. When I got pretty close, a lot of the time I kept being a builder short. Ultimately, I figured if I squeeze out the maximum out of every step up then it should be level solved.

In my experiences, Yawg's levels are quite difficult, at least the ones I've played from RotL v4.0. Some of their levels are in the Lemmini version of the pack as well, but those are some of their easier ones, not the very hard ones. I know they have plenty of hard levels especially in their later mini-Dos packs. As you all are probably well aware by now, these difficult kinds of levels are the ones I especially like!

Now I'm very curious about the intended solution to "The Brick." It wouldn't surprise me if there are easier solutions than the one I found. I did try to see if I could find other solutions to the level but alas I couldn't. In any case, the Outakes pack now has a solution to every level, including the missing level 230 - The Brick.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2023, 08:08:47 PM »
Oh Wow, yes this is by far the hardest level of the Outtakes. I could have never done this level. I didn't have any idea of even how to approach it. The lack of builders made it hard, which clam also said. Thanks for the replay. For me the next hardest level was probably level 193 'Survival of the fittest' due to limited destructive skills. The final level of the pack (also by Yawg was somewhat difficult too, but not even close to 'The Brick'). His other levels were not too hard.

I noticed a few of weirdy beardy's levels, the skills sets were too lenient making them even easier than his updated ones. Also Crane's level 'overhang' level 41 had 3 builders instead of 2 which he said he doesn't remember having. I solved the level though the intended way according to Crane by using just 2 builders.

Now with Yawg's level 'The brick' having a solution. all levels of the Outtakes are confirmed solvable.


Level 104 How to evacuate a gold mine? won't work in Superlemmix (a basher won't turn around with a blocker)
WillLem needs to fix the trick. I Already reported it on Discord, but WillLem hasn't been around lately.The trick works in Neolemmix, Superlemmini, and according to turrican it works on the old engines and the original games too. So it should be allowed to work in Superlemmix.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 03:59:00 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline Turrican

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2023, 03:46:45 PM »
Now I'm very curious about the intended solution to "The Brick." It wouldn't surprise me if there are easier solutions than the one I found. I did try to see if I could find other solutions to the level but alas I couldn't. In any case, the Outakes pack now has a solution to every level, including the missing level 230 - The Brick.

Relatively recently , I had solved the Lemmix version of the level , so I decided to make a video of my solution. Compared to your solution , my solution handles the lower part of the level , a bit differently.

Link for the video of my solution : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rGcABvP680

EDIT : Ericderkovits , just informed me , that this solution won't work at all in Neolemmix, due to a difference in the miner tunnel , between the engines! But also , I think my solution, may be close to the intended solution , considering, the level had been made  for older engines.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 04:50:16 PM by Turrican »
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings 2022
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2023, 06:42:42 PM »
I downloaded Yawg's level The Brick from the level data base and tried it in Superlemmini. Yes it much easier in Superlemmini too. Similiar to Turrican's solution in Lemmix. I think these solutions are closer to what Yawg had in mind as Turrican mentioned. It's much harder though in Neolemmix but still possible since the digger leaves no terrain to the left.


Here is my replay in Superlemmini (Youtube)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTheh9jxHi0