[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Permanent skill remover

[namida]

This proposal is considered a strong contender.

This proposal is for an object which, when a lemming enters the trigger area of, the lemming loses one/all of their permanent skills.

Considerations:
- Should it be simply a "removes all permanent skills" object, or should it instead be that each individual instance removes one particular skill? (So for example, you could place two removers in a level, and set it so that one removes climbers while the other removes swimmers.)
- Should they be single-use or infinite-use? (If infinite-use, they will be constant; ie: like fire, not like triggered traps.)

Other notes:
- Adders / state changers (ie: to/from Zombie and Neutral) exist as seperate suggestions and are not part of this one.

[namida]

See also the previous topic about this suggestion. I've closed it as much of the discussion was around whether it should be a skill or an object, rather than specifically how such an object should work - also, so that I could create this new topic that was more consistent in format with the others, as well as had a first post by me that I can edit with new info as necessary.

[WillLem]

-1

Strongly against this idea, since it negatively affects skill assignments.

Sure, it has puzzle and backroute-proofing potential, but it ultimately means more things to mentally keep track of in-game (particularly if multiple workers have been assigned multiple different permanent skills - yuck! ) and is therefore potentially annoying.

[namida]

Keep in mind that the permanent skills can have downsides to them, and levels can and have been made where these downsides are either an obstacle in and of themself, or used for backroute proofing. In the former case where they're an obstacle, the skill remover can be part of a new way of dealing with them. Now, whether this offers potential that existing options don't, is the bigger question.

Climber can climb walls where you'd want him to turn around; while you're probably already familiar with just how tricky it can be to get Sliders to go where you want them to. Gliders can also cross gaps you'd rather they fell into. The other three don't have so much in the way of downsides, although there could still possibly be setups involving zombies where it gets interesting...

[Kingshadow3]

Climber can climb walls where you'd want him to turn around; while you're probably already familiar with just how tricky it can be to get Sliders to go where you want them to. Gliders can also cross gaps you'd rather they fell into. The other three don't have so much in the way of downsides, although there could still possibly be setups involving zombies where it gets interesting...

Removing a Floater does have a niche merit of speeding up falling lemmings at the cost of being able to splat again. Removing a Floater also means you can assign them a Glider afterwards. Swimmers and Disarmers don't seem to have any reason to be removed since those permanent skills simply prevent Lemmings from dying by specific means. Both Swimmers and Disarmers can still die from fire traps.

[namida]

Swimmers and Disarmers don't seem to have any reason to be removed since those permanent skills simply prevent Lemmings from dying by specific means.

Swimmers yes, but Disarmers can have flow-on effects. In particular, the skill could be removed from a lemming that would otherwise disarm a trap that kills zombies (perhaps the disarmer himself is a zombie, or neutral, even).

[Proxima]

Sure, it has puzzle and backroute-proofing potential, but it ultimately means more things to mentally keep track of in-game (particularly if multiple workers have been assigned multiple different permanent skills - yuck! ) and is therefore potentially annoying.

At first I wasn't sure what you meant here, but after a bit of thought: if multiple workers have been assigned different permanent skills, and remover objects can remove those skills individually, then yes, you have to mentally keep track of which permanent skills are still on each lemming, and this could be annoying.

However, if the only form of permanent skill remover is one that removes all permanent skills, then there is an immediate visual difference, and indeed one less thing to keep track of, since the lemming is simply normal again.

As for the other considerations: the main distinction is that if the remover is single-use or one-lemming-at-a-time, you can bring a particular permanent skill past it, by first "feeding" it another permanent-skilled lemming. If it affects all lemmings, you absolutely cannot bring a permanent skill past it except by bypassing it (e.g. building over the trigger area).

Both ways have puzzle potential; but I suspect that puzzles will be more interesting, and cleaner, if the remover is absolute. Then if you need, for example, a floater on the other side, you have to find some way to either bypass the remover, or find a way around it, or do without the floater on the near side so that you can assign it once the lemming is already past the remover; and having these different possibilities already creates an interesting space for both the designer and the player to explore.

[GigaLem]

Considerations:
- Should it be simply a "removes all permanent skills" object, or should it instead be that each individual instance removes one particular skill? (So for example, you could place two removers in a level, and set it so that one removes climbers while the other removes swimmers.)
- Should they be single-use or infinite-use?
- If infinite-use, should they be one-at-a-time (like traps) or constant (like fire / water / exits)?

I am for this object type and same way with its polar opposite

I'd imagine it being a infinite use object, if finite use ones had to exist, it should have a number over the skill to list how many until the object shuts down, like with the finite exits

The object should show the skill outside of the clear physics mode, show the Skill and a minus right next to it. if it removes one skill, the skill is the one you see it removes, if it remove all skills, instead of it showing all skills it removes it'll just say "-ALL" over it

The best way of visualizing it is like the one way field, considering that one way fields force a lemming back despite the lack of a wall, this basically acts similarly minus the forcing a direction

You could combo this with some puzzle that remove and add with two gate areas at a time. a "Skill swapper" area if you will.

[Dullstar]

I like this idea.

GigaLem makes a good suggestion for how to handle the visual end of things. I'd envision it looking similar to trapdoors with pre-assigned skills, except if it removes all the skills, instead of displaying all of them, it just says ALL (I don't think it would be problematic for them to be allowed to remove multiple skills). I would base the displayed skills only on permanent skills that are present within a level: if a level only provides climbers and floaters, there's no reason to show whether or not the remover would remove a glider/slider/etc. This would also conveniently futureproof the visuals against any new skills (not that there's plans for any, but still).

I would make it primarily infinite use, but I don't mind a limited use version existing - we already have it with exits, so there's precedent for how it could be displayed.

I think a continuous version is a better idea. Otherwise, it would be annoying to work around and encourage stacking large numbers of the objects to make sure people can't backroute levels by compression methoding their way through the remover. Sometimes that can be an interesting puzzle, but the problem is that levels that don't take advantage of that behavior would have to pay for that complexity just for the possibility that another level might possibly be able to make use of it.

[IchoTolot]

I also want to voice my support for this object and the polar opposite of this one. But expecially the permanent skill remover.

I often find myself in the situation where I wish I could remove the permanent skill from a lemming (mainly climber and glider, but I suspect the slider will join here). This applies to solving AND creating levels!

Also the idea is plain and simple.

Visualisation could be a field, but I can also imagine a little pavillion/hut with a fitting symbol on it.

[Silken Healer]

I agree with WillLem.

[namida]

Okay so - unless a reason pops up during testing to go a different route (and this would need to be in the form of real-world level designs, not just proof-of-concept setups to prove you can do something with them), I'm going to go with "removes all permanent skills" for this one.

[namida]

Another thing that crossed my mind just now - sounds!

Ideally, I'd like a sort of "similar but opposite" pairing of sounds for the assigner and deassigner. No particular ideas in mind at this stage beyond that. Any suggestions?

[WillLem]

Ideally, I'd like a sort of "similar but opposite" pairing of sounds for the assigner and deassigner. No particular ideas in mind at this stage beyond that. Any suggestions?

Good idea. Something like "low chime --> high chime" for assigner, and "high chime --> low chime" for de-assigner is what I'd suggest. I'll put something together for this sometime soonish.

[namida]

Commit 5a4a09c implements this (as well as the neutralizer and deneutralizer), except that it has only a placeholder sound effect. Exp build will not be released until all 5 object types are ready for testing (but I am okay with releasing it while still using placeholder SFX).

[WillLem]

I'll have a look at sounds for this tomorrow/Friday. Hopefully I can come up with something suitable, or at least get some ideas together that can then be tweaked/changed to something else.