Poll

Instant or short animation? Bidirectional or one-way? (Please read Reply #19 before voting.)

Instant, bidirectional
1 (11.1%)
Instant, one-way
0 (0%)
Animation, bidirectional
5 (55.6%)
Animation, one-way
1 (11.1%)
Instant, don't care about bidirectional vs one-way
0 (0%)
Animation, don't care about bidirectional vs one-way
0 (0%)
Bidirectional, don't care about instant vs animated
2 (22.2%)
One-way, don't care about instant vs animated
0 (0%)
Don't care about either
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals  (Read 12715 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« on: July 15, 2021, 08:48:17 PM »
This proposal is considered a strong contender.

This proposal is for an object similar to teleporters, but that operates constantly (similar to fire / water / exits) instead of on a one-lemming-at-a-time basis (like existing teleporters, or traps). To further differentiate these from the teleporter, portals would also be bidirectional.

Considerations:
- Where should the warping lemming graphic come from? The lemming sprites? A universal default?
- For that matter, what should the warping lemming graphic look like? (For reference, Lemmings 3D's teleporter uses sparkles with no visual trace of the actual lemming. A similar animation could easily be universal and work with all spritesets.)
- What kind of visual guideline should be used for portal design, in particular to distinguish them from regular teleporters?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 01:28:27 AM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1747
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 07:55:36 AM »
I think it should generally be closer to Lemmings Revolution, since the teleporters in Lemmings 3D are release-rate sensitive, whereas the main difference between portals and the teleporters that already exist in NeoLemmix is indeed that portals would not be release-rate sensitive.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 08:14:21 AM »
Quote
I think it should generally be closer to Lemmings Revolution, since the teleporters in Lemmings 3D are release-rate sensitive, whereas the main difference between portals and the teleporters that already exist in NeoLemmix is indeed that portals would not be release-rate sensitive.

Portals would absolutely be "affects every lemming, regardless of clumping". The only thing I am proposing we take inspiration from L3D on is the visual of the warping lemming.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 08:56:20 AM »
NeoLemmix isn't a "mix and match the best parts from all earlier Lemmings games", it's an individual game with its own identity. We can look to the other games for inspiration, but what other games do should have no weight at all when it comes to mechanics decisions. (Also, I haven't played Revolution so your post tells me nothing about what behaviour you are proposing.)

My suggestions:

* Instant movement rather than warp graphic, since instant movement is precisely what distinguishes portals from teleporters. The portal itself may have a secondary animation when it accepts a lemming, but this would be optional.
* Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame. If it's possible to get around this problem, then I think it's a good idea -- if the portal is essentially a "wormhole" connecting parts of the level that are not next to each other in normal space, then it would make sense for it to be two-way.
* If we do two-way portals, then it would make sense for skills to continue through them. If not, if the portal just "drops" the lemming at its destination, it should revert to a walker/faller.
* One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door (see some of WillLem's proposals for the now-rejected "vortex" object). This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air. However, an arch-shaped hole could work at ground level.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 02:19:33 PM »
Quote from: namida
should there be no warp graphic, with simply a sound and an instant movement to the new position?
---
what should the warping lemming graphic look like?

Quote from: Proxima
Instant movement rather than warp graphic, since instant movement is precisely what distinguishes portals from teleporters. The portal itself may have a secondary animation when it accepts a lemming, but this would be optional.

Agree with Proxima here. The portal having a secondary animation would be a good idea so that the effect is more than just 'a lemming disappearing', which would look a bit sketchy, however the physics should absolutely be instant.

Quote from: namida
The portal could be further distinguished from the teleporter by being two-way. What do people think of this idea?

Definitely in favour of 2-way :thumbsup:

The more attributes a portal has that make it not like a teleporter, the better. Puzzle and level design would benefit from these sorts of differences. Furthermore, it would mean that there would be no need for separate "IN" and "OUT" graphics.

Quote from: namida
What kind of visual guideline should be used for portal design, in particular to distinguish them from regular teleporters?

As a basic guideline, I'd suggest a circular, swirling effect similar to the rejected vortex idea. This further plays into the idea of it being like a "wormhole":





Quote from: Proxima
If we do two-way portals, then it would make sense for skills to continue through them. If not, if the portal just "drops" the lemming at its destination, it should revert to a walker/faller.

Agreed, although I see no reason why skills shouldn't also continue if they're only 1-way.

Having said that, I could also side with the idea that skills shouldn't continue, to even further distinguish the object from teleporters. The elsewhere discussion that this should be the other way around (i..e portals continue skills, teleporters stop skills) is absolutely correct though, it's just unfortunate that teleporters already continue skills :forehead:

Quote from: Proxima
One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door ... This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air

Wouldn't they?

I can absolutely imagine using portals in mid-air, so I disagree with Proxima here. If we're pursuing the idea that these are wormhole/vortex-like, naturally-occurring objects, then random/mid-air placement plays into that quite nicely.

Ultimately, style designers can make these objects look however they like, but for the defaults I'd strongly recommend something along the lines of the circular, swirling motif shown above.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 02:25:55 PM »
Quote from: Proxima
One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door ... This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air

Wouldn't they?

I can certainly imagine cases where a mid-air portal would be the best choice for a puzzle; but I strongly suspect that ground-level portals will be much more common, for the simple reason that lemmings will walk into them. After all, teleporters have been in NL for a long time now, and we can see that they are used at ground level much more than in mid-air.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1747
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 03:39:56 PM »
Quote from: WillLem
As a basic guideline, I'd suggest a circular, swirling effect similar to the rejected vortex idea. This further plays into the idea of it being like a "wormhole":

I like WillLem's first example, this looks very similar to portals in Lemmings Revolution, which is where the idea stems from.
So even any new NeoLemmix player who has played the official Lemmings games in the past (including Lemmings Revolution) should quickly be able to infer what these portals do. ;)

Whereas this...

Quote from: namida
Portals would absolutely be "affects every lemming, regardless of clumping". The only thing I am proposing we take inspiration from L3D on is the visual of the warping lemming.

...would be visually confusing in my opinion, precisely because L3D teleporters are release-rate sensitive.
So having portals in NeoLemmix that look like L3D teleporters but are not release-rate sensitive would be counter-intuitive.

Even though I do like the red design of L3D teleporters by itself :D , but for once game-mechanical fairness and visual clarity trump aesthetics here, even for me, who has a history of sacrificing strict game fairness for the sake of aesthetics.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 03:40:13 PM »
After all, teleporters have been in NL for a long time now, and we can see that they are used at ground level much more than in mid-air.

But these aren't teleporters, hence the proposal.

Since they have immediate effect, they can potentially be fallen, swam, glided, floated, jumped, slid, climbed, shimmied, etc. into.

Not to mention the fact that the design may encourage more mid-air use of this object type, thus opening the field of play to more than ground-level dimensions.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 05:09:29 PM »
Since they have immediate effect, they can potentially be fallen, swam, glided, floated, jumped, slid, climbed, shimmied, etc. into.

Not to mention the fact that the design may encourage more mid-air use of this object type, thus opening the field of play to more than ground-level dimensions.

The field is already open. Teleporters can be placed in mid-air and can be fallen, swam, etc. into. Predominantly, they are not placed in mid-air, because after years of experimentation and experience, it turns out that that's how designers find it easiest to use them.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2021, 08:02:32 PM »
Teleporters can be placed in mid-air and can be fallen, swam, etc. into. Predominantly, they are not placed in mid-air, because after years of experimentation and experience, it turns out that that's how designers find it easiest to use them.

Sure, but - again - this discussion is about Portals, not Teleporters. Ideally, they should be as different as possible, and therefore have more potential uses.

For one thing - if a portal set is in midair, and they are two-way, the first could be placed such that re-entry leads to a splat drop. Just one of many, many possible ideas that could be unique to Portals, particularly those placed in midair.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2021, 08:09:13 PM »
Okay, I see that what I'm getting at is being misunderstood, so let me try again.

Where I spoke about L3D, I'm specifically talking about visuals of the lemming. Now - Proxima did propose in one post that this should be outright instant, which would imply no animation (but still maybe a sound), the lemming instantly changes location upon entering the portal. In that case, there is no "lemming visual" to speak of, and this discussion point would be redundant.

I was envisioning it more as like in Lemmings 3D, where the teleporting lemming temporarily enters a "teleporting" state. (We might want to use a different term instead of "teleporting" though, for obvious reasons - "warping" is one option.) This state has its own graphic - this is independent of the graphic of the teleporter itself, this is the graphic of the lemming. Here's a video - ignore the teleporter itself and just pay attention to the lemmings: https://youtu.be/KrgP7BcBUc0

So my thought is - when the lemming encounters a portal, an animation similar to this occurs while the lemming teleports, which takes a few frames. The portal would not be sensitive to releaserate or grouping; the entire point of the portal is that it differentiates itself from the teleporter in this way (essentially, portal is to a teleporter, what fire is to a trap); on a physics level it's like a trigger that puts every lemming that enters it into this "warping" state immediately (much like how fire puts all lemmings that enter it into the "burning" state).

As for whether the lemming comes out the other end continuing the current skill or as a walker/faller, I'd prefer "keeps the current skill" unless there is a good reason not to, simply to keep it consistent with teleporters.

Quote
* Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame. If it's possible to get around this problem, then I think it's a good idea -- if the portal is essentially a "wormhole" connecting parts of the level that are not next to each other in normal space, then it would make sense for it to be two-way.

Splitters have this problem too if a lemming drops in from above; it's not at all difficult to deal with. It could get messy if a level had multiple overlapping portals, but that to me feels like a "do not do this".
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2021, 08:30:44 PM »
This state has its own graphic - this is independent of the graphic of the teleporter itself, this is the graphic of the lemming

Sure, I understood this.

A new "Warper" sprite would cover this, of course, but are the objects likely to be used enough to warrant their own sprite? I'd tentatively suggest not, and so a secondary animation in the object itself therefore seems a better idea (I assume Proxima also reached this conclusion via the same thought path), even if it's only triggered every few lems or so; a bunch of lemmings walking into a Portal don't need to each have their own state, they can simply disappear, with one of them triggering the secondary anim. The visual effect would be good enough to cover all lems.

Having said that, if a Warper sprite is the end result of this discussion, I'll happily help to design it if needed. Bear in mind, though, that it would almost certainly be tied into the design of the Portal itself (e.g. if swirly Portal, then spinning lem would make sense as in the example above). So, it would likely influence the design of all subsequent Portals in custom styles. Whilst this is not necessarily a good or bad thing in itself, it's something to consider.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2021, 08:34:27 PM »
Unless the relocation from portal A to portal B is instant, I would prefer some kind of per-lemming animation. An animation for the portal itself on top of this could be considered as an extra, optional thing. However, I had been thinking along the lines of having a single universal animation (similar to, on a technical level, the Stoner graphic) rather than spritesets each having to implement their own - of course this does mean it needs to be designed so that no lemming graphic is actually visible in it (although one possible option is to overlay it on top of a standard walker or faller sprite or "lemming's current state" sprite).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2021, 08:41:28 PM »
one possible option is to overlay it on top of a standard walker or faller sprite or "lemming's current state" sprite

I like this idea...

I'm not sure what the technical limitations would be, but perhaps the sprite could be frozen at its current frame and then warped, much like in L3D. Is there something in the code that can shrink, stretch, bend or otherwise distort the sprites independently of their own animation cycle?

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2021, 08:54:54 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure what the technical limitations would be, but perhaps the sprite could be frozen at its current frame and then warped, much like in L3D. Is there something in the code that can shrink, stretch, bend or otherwise distort the sprites independently of their own animation cycle?

Frozen at the current frame is 100% doable. Transformations being applied to it might be - certianly the option is there, it's a matter of how good it would look. The alternative is simply for one frame of the warping animation to be large enough to obscure the entire lemming sprite, with the lemming disappearing / appearing behind said frame.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Armani

  • Posts: 548
  • :D
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2021, 12:39:26 PM »


I prefer

 - instant movement to the new position without warp graphic.

 - Portals being two-way sounds good.
Quote
Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame.
This is a good point. My suggestion : If a lemmings is portalled from A to B, he should get out of the trigger area of the portal B in order to use portal B(so he can portal to A again.) This is similar to how splitter works. A lemmings should get out of the trigger area of the splitter to flip the splitter again.(This is why we can't see madly dancing arrow that switch its direction every frame when we place a blocker right at the splitter)


I have no idea on what kind of visual should be used for portal.. ;P
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1415
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2021, 08:14:45 PM »
Considerations:
- Where should the warping lemming graphic come from? The lemming sprites? A universal default? Or should there be no warp graphic, with simply a sound and an instant movement to the new position?
- For that matter, what should the warping lemming graphic look like? (For reference, Lemmings 3D's teleporter uses sparkles with no visual trace of the actual lemming. A similar animation could easily be universal and work with all spritesets.)
- The portal could be further distinguished from the teleporter by being two-way. What do people think of this idea?
- What kind of visual guideline should be used for portal design, in particular to distinguish them from regular teleporters?

if anyone said this before me, I apologize. But here's my thoughts on the matter

Because Teleporters are traps that send a lemming somewhere instead of killing them, Portals can be considered fire but instead of lemmings getting burned to a crisp, lemmings play a quick universal teleporting animation to sent to the other side. Their teleports would be instantaneous and can take multiple lemmings at once like fire rather than one lemming at a time.

In terms of visuals, They should constantly animating like fire, the portals wouldn't stop since they'd likely be considered an always active object.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2021, 08:11:15 PM »
I agree with those who think that the lemming's current skill should be maintained through a portal. First, it's consistent with how teleporters already work. Second, if the two objects were to be different, I'd expect it to be the other way around, i.e. portals continue, but teleporters cancel, but since teleporters are too ingrained to change, just make both objects work the same in that regard.

Offline ∫tan x dx

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 05:37:44 PM »
Could portals have limited uses, similar to how an exit functions? It could display its remaining uses above, in the same way as an exit. Perhaps after it is depleted, its graphic could change (as in, the portal shuts off/powers down/etc)?

And, at the risk of opening some dangerous floodgates, could the same functionality also be added to regular teleporters?

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2021, 05:49:25 PM »
I'm going to put up a poll for the "instant" vs "short animation" behavior, and whether it's one-way or bidirectional. Please read this before voting - and in particular note that "short animation" is NOT the same thing as the triggered behavior of the teleporters.

Firstly - this is two different matters. That's why I've put options for every combination, including a "don't care" option. And just to avoid doubt - I will be looking at the votes on each matter individually, not just looking at which combination has the most votes. Or in other words - when I decide on one-way vs bidirectional, I'll ignore the "instant vs animated" part of the votes when tallying up results; and vice versa.

Instant - This would mean that on the frame where a lemming ("L") enters an in-portal, the lemming is transported on that same frame to the out-portal and immediately continues what he was doing.

Animated - This would mean that on the frame where a lemming ("L") enters an in-portal, the lemming would become "frozen" for a few frames and play a short warping animation - presumably half this animation would occur before being transported, and the other half after. Once this animation finishes, the lemming would go back to what it was doing before as if it was never interrupted. (This would be - in terms of visuals only - the same way Lemmings 3D handles teleporters.) This would NOT mean that other lemmings cannot use the portal at the same time - the animation is an attribute of the LEMMING, not the object.

Bidirectional - This would mean that if there are a pair of linked portals, A and B, a lemming could enter Portal A to come out of Portal B, and could also enter Portal B to come out of Portal A.

One-way - This would mean that if there are a pair of linked portals, A and B, a lemming could only enter Portal A to come out of Portal B; and could not go back through Portal B to come out at Portal A again.


Also, to be clear about a point raised earlier in the topic:
Quote
* Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame. If it's possible to get around this problem, then I think it's a good idea -- if the portal is essentially a "wormhole" connecting parts of the level that are not next to each other in normal space, then it would make sense for it to be two-way.
This can absolutely be dealt with - NeoLemmix already has to deal with this situation for splitters.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Apjjm

  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2021, 06:11:41 PM »
Does "Instant" preclude having a visual indicator at all on the source teleporter that a lemming has teleported or is it possible to have an effect play at the moment the teleport happens (e.g. some sparks or something) whilst still preserving the behaviour where the lemming immediately exits the other side?
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2021, 06:22:31 PM »
Does "Instant" preclude having a visual indicator at all on the source teleporter that a lemming has teleported or is it possible to have an effect play at the moment the teleport happens (e.g. some sparks or something) whilst still preserving the behaviour where the lemming immediately exits the other side?

It doesn't rule it out, though some thought would need to be given about how well it'd work especially if a whole heap of lemmings hit the portal at once.

This could even go as far, potentially, as a "portal animates when a lemming enters it, like a triggered object, but still behaves like a constant one". I'm not saying this will happen - in particular, it breaks the convention that "if an object does something when a lemming reaches it, the object is either single-use or one-lemming-at-a-time" (and one could argue single-use is in fact just a special case of one-lemming-at-a-time), which is especially of concern given that teleporters are a similar object that is one-lemming-at-a-time - but on a technical level at least, it could be considered. In much the same way, this could also be extended to the receiving portal as well (provided that, if they're bi-directional, the sending and receiving animation are the same - too complex otherwise).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 06:57:19 PM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 01:50:05 AM »
Voted for Animation & Bi-directional. Reasoning:

If animated, presumably there is the option to make the animation as long or short as the designer wishes, meaning that the option for a more instant effect is still present within the design. Conversely, even if the animation is always the same for all portals, object/lemming animations are so much a part of the game at this point that I wouldn't like to see a new object get implemented which didn't have an animated element at the point of contact. Lastly, the reassurance that multiple lems can use the portal at once (i.e without the animation precluding this) makes this an even more desirable option.

I chose Bi-directional mainly because it differs it further from a teleporter and offers more possiblities. The "wormhole" suggestion also lends itself well to a distinctive visual design, which I can imagine will make it easier to spot a Portal vs. a Teleporter (although, of course, this depends a lot on the style designer's preferences).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 09:33:18 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2021, 06:34:10 AM »
Quote
If animated, presumably there is the option to make the animation as long or short as the designer wishes, meaning that the option for a more instant effect is still present within the design.

No. The "warping" state would be a property of the lemming, and - much like how many frames a builder or climber takes to place a brick / move - be constant and not open to change by any means. This is not up for debate. The actual graphic of the animation would be either global (ie: not customizable, except by modding NL's data files), or part of the lemming spriteset.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2021, 09:33:44 AM »
No. The "warping" state would ... be constant and not open to change by any means

I see, thanks for clarifying. The rest of my reasoning still stands; I wouldn't change my vote. I've edited my post to reflect the new info.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2021, 08:56:45 AM »
I have a weak preference towards bi-directional, and I figure in a lot of cases you could design terrain to force a one-way teleport using a bi-directional portal (or just use a teleporter instead), though the more I think about it, the stronger this preference becomes.

I don't have a preference regarding animation, though I do request that if there is audio, it be something gentle and not something harsh on the ears like some of the existing sounds are.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2021, 11:22:50 AM »
it be something gentle and not something harsh on the ears like some of the existing sounds are

Agreed.

@Dullstar - Which sounds do you think are harsh, btw? Please reply in this topic.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 11:28:52 AM by WillLem »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2021, 12:02:25 PM »
I figure in a lot of cases you could design terrain to force a one-way teleport using a bi-directional portal

The simplest way to do this would be to put the exit portal in mid-air. You could go back through the portal by building back up to it, but this would be highly wasteful, so in many cases there wouldn't be enough builders or it would obvious that you couldn't afford to use that many in one spot.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2021, 08:59:37 PM »
I figure in a lot of cases you could design terrain to force a one-way teleport using a bi-directional portal

The simplest way to do this would be to put the exit portal in mid-air. You could go back through the portal by building back up to it, but this would be highly wasteful, so in many cases there wouldn't be enough builders or it would obvious that you couldn't afford to use that many in one spot.

You could make this even harder to do by chaining two portal pairs together (ie: they enter A, which is in midair; come out at B, which is directly above C which they then fall into, and exit at D from where they fall (through an updraft / onto an antisplat pad?) onto land).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Apjjm

  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2021, 11:01:37 PM »
My preference is for bi-directional as I think behaviourally that makes it more distinct from the existing teleporter. I don't really have a strong opinion either way for animated or instant. I think instant would feel more seamless, but I worry that it might be hard to see what has happened to lemming in those cases so can see the appeal for the animation in that respect.

For the portalling behaviour, will the teleported lemming always exit at the same point regardless of when they entered the trigger area, or will they enter relative to where they hit the trigger area? If it is the 2nd case, we may want some control as to how the local space of one portal maps to another (e.g. are they flipped or not), for example:

My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2021, 01:26:11 AM »
Quote
For the portalling behaviour, will the teleported lemming always exit at the same point regardless of when they entered the trigger area, or will they enter relative to where they hit the trigger area?

Same way as teleporters - exact receive point, but a horizontal flip is possible.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2021, 01:27:44 AM »
Okay so - it seems we have only a single vote for one-way (and no don't-cares), and only a single vote (along with two don't-cares) for instant.

Of course this could change if testing throws up an unforeseen reason to go a different route, but at this stage, looks like "animated, bidirectional" is the way to go.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2021, 06:16:05 PM »
The simplest way to do this would be to put the exit portal in mid-air

Good shout. This would also play nicely into the "vortex/wormhole-style" aesthetic of the object, as is the current proposition (it would seem).

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2021, 06:43:33 PM »
Issue that arises with bidirectional - no object currently supports having both a trigger area and a trigger point. (There was support for this in the past, but no longer as there is no remaining object type that requires it.)

My first thought is, could we assume the receiving point should always be the bottom-middle of the trigger area? This would greatly simplify things. (EDIT: This would not preclude even-width trigger areas; and a consistent rule would exist as to which direction the point gets rounded in.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 04:25:54 AM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2021, 11:05:34 PM »
could we assume the receiving point should always be the bottom-middle of the trigger area?

Yes :lemcat:

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2021, 03:45:10 AM »
Portal physics implemented in 11cebce, with some fixes in d29c6b1. The sound effect remains a placeholder, and there is currently no proper visual effect (the lemming just freezes for a few frames, warps to the new location, freezes for a few more, then continues on).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)