Author Topic: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]  (Read 1683 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]
« on: June 04, 2021, 05:27:57 AM »


This is an authorised conversion of namida's Lemmings Plus I from the most up-to-date copy of the pack in old-formats. Note that the official version of the pack is also currently available for NeoLemmix.

This is namida's first proper level pack and is a stunning set of puzzles and challenges which continue with the abstract style and familiar spirit of Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings. Its 150 levels are structured into 5 ranks of increasing difficulty from pleasantly easy to mind-bendingly difficult.

Set in the original 9 styles and featuring the classic 8 skills, this is a perfect pack to add to your SuperLemmini collection.



Original pack author: namida
Conversion by: WillLem
Additional testing & replays by: ericderkovits and kaywhyn



SuperLemmini users: download the attached zip and extract it to Resources/levels.

NeoLemmix users: the official new-formats NeoLemmix version of this pack can be downloaded here.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:17:40 AM by WillLem »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels)
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2021, 06:18:28 AM »
One thing I do notice off the bat is that many levels say there is a time limit of 100 minutes. I think for those ones it's better to uncheck the time limit in the editor.
That way it will just say No time limit.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1 UPDATE PENDING]
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2021, 03:10:41 PM »
One thing I do notice off the bat is that many levels say there is a time limit of 100 minutes. I think for those ones it's better to uncheck the time limit in the editor.
That way it will just say No time limit.

Yeah, that's a good shout. The 100 minute time limit just seems odd. NepsterLems has the same issue for a lot of its levels.

I've also noticed that Wimpy 10 Labyrinth of Despair doesn't load. Not sure what the issue is here but I'll get it fixed for V1.1.

EDIT: This, and a few other levels, had their start positions set to 8 million, hence not loading; this has now been fixed.

EDIT: Psycho 6 The Bulldozer was also not loading, possibly because it includes updrafts. This level will have to be replaced since its intended solution is impossible in SuperLemmini.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 09:07:22 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1 UPDATE RELEASED]
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2021, 09:19:37 PM »
Version 1.1 now available

See OP for download link.

Changelog:

:lemming: All 100-minute timers have been removed

:lemming: The music rotation has been corrected (it now restarts at the beginning of each rank, as intended by the author)

:lemming: All levels now load properly

:lemming: All OWW objects have now been overlaid correctly

:lemming: Psycho 6 The Bulldozer has been replaced with Lemming Crossover, one of namida's early NeoLemmix Community Pack levels. Both are in the Fire style, but the intended solution for The Bulldozer is impossible in SuperLemmini due to the lack of a Direct Drop mechanic, or a suitable emulation thereof. Lemming Crossover is just as good a level anyway and plays really nicely in SuperLemmini, offering a pleasing balance between puzzle and execution.

:lemming: Medi 2 The T Level and its repeat have had a facelift - the terrain pieces in the OWW were previously overlapping in the wrong order (likely due to a hiccup in the conversion process); this has now been corrected

Please note that whilst this update has been very thorough, there may still be minor errors throughout the pack. If you notice anything whilst playing, let me know and I will correct them as and when they appear.

There will be another update to this pack following the release of the next version of SuperLemmini.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 10:58:15 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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[SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [V1.1b UPDATED LEVELS]
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 01:52:49 AM »
The following Bubble-style levels needed to have the exits lowering by 2px - thanks to ericderkovits for discovering these:

Mild 13 Take A Shortcut!
Mild 22 Blow Down!
Wimpy 27 Ready, Aim, Fire!!!
Danger 15 Circular Wavelength
Danger 29 Pipeline Problem

I have included these in the OP download as V1.1b, but here they are as separate level files for those who have already downloaded V1.1 (all 4 of you! :lemcat:) - simply place them in Resources/levels/Lemmings Plus I and choose 'Replace'.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2021, 01:06:54 AM »
Level Update

Mild 10 Take Your Time... with OWW overlaid correctly.

This has been added to the OP in V1.1c, but here it is as a separate download for those who already have the pack. Simply drop it into Resources/levels/Lemmings Plus I and choose "Replace."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:05:50 AM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2021, 04:00:42 PM »
I made a music pack for this using the music from Lemmings 2, 3d, chronicles and the others.

Just unzip the midi files to your music folder and rename the correct levelpack file and remove the (bracketed) text.

I wanted to hear new Lemmings music instead of those same old tunes. I never get to enjoy those later Lemmings tunes.

...Jeremy
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:49:13 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline namida

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 07:22:54 PM »
Technically, the intended music for this pack is the soundtrack from the Sega Master System version of Lemmings. You can grab a copy here in OGG format, though I don't know if SL supports that at all - and if it does, there's a good chance these aren't the right filenames for SL (but that's easy enough to fix): https://www.neolemmix.com/musicpacks/Orig_SMS_Music.zip

Aside from just being different versions of tracks, tracks 13 to 16 are unique to that version (or in this pack, tracks 13, 14, 15 and 17, as it swaps the last two tracks around to match what the SMS version itself does). 13 is an original composition, 14 is Tchaikovsky's "Miniature Overture", 15 is "Scotland The Brave" and 16/17 is "Don't Dilly-Dally On The Way".

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 08:10:34 PM »
yes Superlemmini Supports .ogg as I have other converted packs using .ogg's (Ie my Dovelems pack uses all .oggs to match Dodochacalos music he used on his Youtube Channel for his pack)

So Willlem Can perhaps make a levelpack.ini using Namida intended music (.ogg). I would make the new levelpack.ini, but since this is WillLem's Project, I'll let him do it. Also it's shouldn't take too long, so I'm sure he won't need help in doing it.

And of course I would use the levelpack.ini with Namida's music since I always want my SL packs to have the Intended music.

Of course One can still use whatever choice they want, whether jkapp76's or Namida's intended one. I just prefer the intended one.

Still I have to admit, Jkapp76's music is pretty awesome.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 11:59:55 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2021, 02:46:12 AM »
Quote from: namida
Technically, the intended music for this pack is the soundtrack from the Sega Master System version of Lemmings

I'll add this music to the next update, for sure.

Quote from: ericderkovits
And of course I would use the levelpack.ini with Namida's music since I always want my SL packs to have the Intended music.

Me too :lemcat:



Quote from: jkapp76
I made a music pack for this using the music from Lemmings 2, 3d, and the others.

Quote from: ericderkovits
Still I have to admit, Jkapp76's music is pretty awesome.

The link isn't working for me fsr, would you mind sharing it as an attachment please?

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 02:56:36 AM »
here is the zip file I got from jkapp76
 

Includes his music for Lemmings Plus I and Nepsterlems

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 03:08:09 AM »
Here's a link to my levelpack file to make use of the Original_SMS music provided by Namida above. Be sure to install that music pack first.

Also, Please feel free to use any of my icons, music or anything without need to contact or credit me.

...Jeremy Kapp
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:46:20 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2021, 03:10:11 AM »
https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ6DWMXZsVXjVkkH5qYKiCAc66dswhFdhujX

I made a music pack for this using the music from Lemmings 2, 3d, and the others.

Just unzip the midi files to your music folder and rename the correct levelpack file and remove the (bracketed) text.

I wanted to hear new Lemmings music instead of those same old tunes.

...Jeremy

Not a problem ;) Players/users don't have to use the intended music set list if they don't want to. It's very easy to customize a levelpack to use your own custom music to your liking, as it just simply involves making sure the tracks are in the music folder, numbering and specifying the filenames for the tracks in the levelpack.ini and put the corresponding number for the track you want the level to play.

As for myself, I'm like eric and WillLem in that I too also prefer to use the intended music, even if I don't necessarily like some of the tracks. The only exception I have made are packs that use the intended SMS port music, as I'm not a fan of the SMS tracks. Instead, I use the Dos/PC soundtrack standard music rotation. It's mostly due to how I grew up with the Dos/PC soundtracks, and I think I like these the most out of any of the others among the standard music for the various ports.

Quote
https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArgLsDcAB7w8gbl5IGoogV2JnSrR_Q?e=Zmq2u2

Here's a link to my levelpack file to make use of the Original_SMS music provided by Namida above. Be sure to install that music pack first.

Also, Please feel free to use any of my icons, music or anything without need to contact or credit me.

...Jeremy Kapp

The link requires signing into OneDrive, and there is also some kind of authorship document in there. You might want to fix that :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 03:37:27 AM »
It should be fixed. My pcloud account is down at the moment so I am trying my other options.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 09:33:30 PM »
ok here is an edit to Wimpy 6. It was impossible to get the Talisman solution in SL (use only 2 skills) as the basher (from the bottom left hatch) in SL would always stop. So I added invisible terrain where those tiny blocks are at the very bottom middle area. Now the basher will continue bashing.


When playing the level, one won't even be able to tell visibily any change to the level.

also here's the Talisman replay.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 10:40:05 PM »
Why fix the level if it's not even broken to begin with? As the saying goes, "If it's not broken, don't fix it." It's still solvable, and that's what matters! NL and SL are not the same engine, and it's ok if levels play out slightly different. This has been pointed out repeatedly. When keeping records for the minimum skills used challenge, there can be a note explaining why it requires more than 2 skills in SL, that the basher mechanics appear to be different.

Indeed, the basher keeps going on Lemmini and Dos, though the basher mechanics on SL and Dos appear to be similar in that sometimes the basher will stop on Dos as well. If anything, it would appear that it's a high-res issue, though the fact it keeps going in Lemmini says otherwise. So, it's likely the difference in basher checks that's the problem.   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2021, 12:53:54 AM »
ok here is an edit to Wimpy 6 ... I added invisible terrain where those tiny blocks are at the very bottom middle area. Now the basher will continue bashing.

Why fix the level if it's not even broken to begin with? As the saying goes, "If it's not broken, don't fix it." It's still solvable, and that's what matters! NL and SL are not the same engine, and it's ok if levels play out slightly different

I totally agree with kaywhyn here; there's no need to amend the levels to make them playable as-in-NL if they are already playable in SL. It's much more interesting to see how the levels play out differently on different engines, IMHO.

The fact that you've added invisible elements is also somewhat controversial as well; I'm pretty sure namida wouldn't approve of this, and whilst I personally don't have an issue with invisible stuff in levels, I do think it's unnecessary in this case.

So, thanks for sharing the level anyway, but I won't be adding it to the main pack.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2021, 02:48:16 AM »
Meanwhile, I've solved the first 3 ranks! Replays attached.

I won't include these replays with the download simply because a lot of them feel very backroutey, especially towards the end of the Medi rank when the difficulty starts to pick up a bit.

However, this at least shows that the levels are all solvable (so far)! :lemcat:

I'll continue with the pack over the next couple of days. If I get really stuck I'll consult the LPs for help, so we'll definitely have a full set of replays for this level pack by the end of the week.

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2021, 08:04:25 PM »
I watched the replay for (lemmingsense) level in medi.

The lemming built steps in front of the exit and jumped in and nothing else happened. a second lemming also jumped in.

I think he was supposed to go over the exit.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2021, 09:26:13 PM »
I watched the replay for (lemmingsense) level in medi.

The lemming built steps in front of the exit and jumped in and nothing else happened. a second lemming also jumped in.

I think he was supposed to go over the exit.

I assume you have the latest version of the levels at the time of your post, since you referenced V1.1c in your previously uploaded 'levelpack (SMS).ini.' that being the case, I'm not sure exactly why your copy isn't working properly, but I've attached both the latest copy of the level and the replay just in case.



EDIT: There has been another level update since I posted this, so I'd recommend updating your copy of the pack to V1.1d (see OP for download) and then trying the replay again. If it still doesn't work, let me know.

Other things to try as well. It's unlikely that it will be due to any of this, but it's worth eliminating as many possibilities as we can:

- Update your copy of Java SE (I'm using 8)
- Use the copy of 'levelpack.ini' supplied with the download rather than your modified one
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:35:46 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1c - UPDATED LEVEL]
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2021, 01:33:06 AM »
Replays for levels 1-15 of Danger. All levels solved without hints :lemcat:, with the following exceptions:

Solved with hints from LPs by IchoTolot and Swerdis:

Level 3 Backdraft
Level 8 Cavern Of Chills
Level 13 Breakthrough
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:40:20 AM by WillLem »

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[SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2021, 01:37:15 AM »
Critical Level Update

This is a critical update for Danger 6 Alternative Logic. The intended solution previously did not work in SuperLemmini, likely due to slight differences in the speed of the timer. Since the intended solution is the only one known to be possible, this means that the previous version of the level is unsolvable.

The update reduces the lem count to perfectly match the faster timer, thus preserving the intended solution whilst also ensuring that any unintended variants remain impossible.

To install, place the attachment into Resources/levels/Lemmings Plus I and choose 'Replace.'

The OP has also been updated to V1.1d with this level included.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:23:07 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 02:14:57 AM »
Nice catch, WillLem! :thumbsup: Indeed, I have confirmed the level is impossible with the original 50 lemming count. Curiously, the first lemming to reach the stairs does so with 16 seconds remaining on NL, but on SL the same lemming reaches it with 15 seconds remaining. However, even more curious is what happens on Lemmini. With the original 50 lemming count, the clock runs out on the second-to-last lemming and so either the clock is somehow slower than SL's or the lemmings are just an itty-bit faster on Lemmini than they are on SL (I don't remember which timer is faster ATM just tested, SL's timer is slightly faster than Lemmini's, tested on Fun 2, Lemmini finishes with 4:38 remaining on the clock, SL finishes with 4:37 remaining). At the same time, I believe builders don't reach as far on Lemmini, as some do end up catching up and falling into the lava. Even then, it's not possible to get everyone home on time just like in SL and is therefore impossible on Lemmini too.

So, 96 levels in and we have confirmed the first impossible level of the pack under SL by design.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:31:09 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 02:54:55 AM »
I installed your latest lemmingsense ini file and the replay from that same post.

Both lemmings still jump in to exit after the first one builds up.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 08:53:58 PM »
I installed your latest lemmingsense ini file and the replay from that same post.

Both lemmings still jump in to exit after the first one builds up.

Is anyone else seeing this, or just Jeremy?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 09:21:22 PM »
The replay for Medi 29 works fine for me. Another suggestion I have for Jeremy that I didn't see anywhere here is to make sure he has v.104a of Superlemmini. Sometimes for whatever reason replays can break with older versions of Superlemmini

Also, try my replay solution for the level. Does it work, or do you still see the same thing?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 09:36:39 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 10:03:19 PM »
WillLem's and Kaywhyn's replays both work for me!

WillLem saved 36 lemmings
Kaywhyn saved 35 lemmings


Edit: Sorry misread it. it is 32
required: 32


Also here is my Medi 29 replay. Saved 36. Somewhat different solution than WillLem's and Kaywhyn's
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 11:39:43 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2021, 11:36:56 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2021, 12:03:35 AM »
I just double-checked everything.

This new replay works fine, but he builds the steps much higher too.

As for the first one... he still jumps in the exit instead of going over it.
I have the latest version of SuperLemmini. and I'm using the ini and replay that are together above and just for me.

Ericderkovits replay does NOT work either, same issue! Is there any other resource I might have overwritten or something that would cause this?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 12:13:50 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2021, 12:05:37 AM »
Thanks for the replays guys, confirmed that they both work for me. Interesting little individual variations in both of your solutions which is always fun to see :lemcat:

So, that narrows it down to it being likely that there's something up with Jeremy's copy of SL. Let's keep investigating and see if we can figure it out between us.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2021, 12:26:02 AM »
ok, there is a problem with

Danger 25 in Superlemmini

bashing into that left steal vertical beam won't turn around the lemming (required for the solution). And the lemming can't just climb the beam to turn around since there is no floaters in the level.


here is the Youtube video for SL's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIbLDffvZ3k

and here is the Neolemmix version

where the basher will bash into the steel and turn around (required for the solution)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsxp0EbhCig

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2021, 12:57:11 AM »
Replay for Danger 25 attached proving it's still possible.

This new replay works fine, but he builds the steps much higher too.

Yea, I built a little further back. As I mentioned before, WillLem's replay works for me, so it's possible that it's simply something on your end. Not sure what it can be. Can probably try redoing the extraction process again, although it might be such that there's no need to extract resources in the next update or so.

Thanks for the replays guys, confirmed that they both work for me. Interesting little individual variations in both of your solutions which is always fun to see :lemcat:

The beauty that is the game of Lemmings ;)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 01:02:54 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2021, 01:13:13 AM »
Danger 25 in Superlemmini

bashing into that left steal vertical beam won't turn around the lemming (required for the solution)

Replay for Danger 25 attached proving it's still possible.

Hmmm. I haven't reached this level yet but will get this sorted tomorrow; if it's a fix that's required for the intended solution, then it's worth doing.

Thanks for the heads up, guys 8-)

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2021, 02:56:21 AM »
I think my issue is probably that I overwrote something with a file from an older SL version.
I can't get it to extract again... in the two minutes I had to try.
I used SL alot in 2016... then came back to it this year and reinstalled my old things in it. I tried not to do this, but it's my guess.

I'd like to fix it, but I haven't noticed any issues until now.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2021, 03:03:13 AM »
I think Danger 26 needs a fix as trying to solve the level the intended may not work as putting blockers on the end of builder steps while another one is building
to turn him around seems to not work(especially builders building left). And to do it 4 times (2 times in each direction)

I can't seem to do it. If anyone can solve this level the intended way and succeed, then post the replay.


Also the flamethrowers need adjusting as one can just send the climbers up to either exit and they won't die from the flamethrowers (not supposed to happen)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2021, 03:59:29 AM »
Yea, Danger 26 is possible but it's extremely annoying to do. Replay attached. Therefore, no change to the level is needed, though it is harder to do on Superlemmini than intended. Note that this is a left exit solution. The right exit appears to be impossible with the given skillset. With one more builder, then it will be possible. With some testing, apparently lemmings going to the left fall off a builder staircase much earlier than those going to the right. Not to mention that most of the time the builder doesn't even turn around when setting a blocker going to the left. As for the other side, lots of framestepping to achieve blocking and the lemmings still being able to go up on the builder staircase in the other direction. They have to be placed pixel perfect. To be fair, NL also requires pixel perfect blocker placements as well when turning builders.

Regarding the flamethrowers, the intended solution to Hellish 1 from Sublems requires being able to go through it, though there might be alternative solutions that don't require it. I'm not sure. In any case, lemmings being able to survive when touching the gun or falling through them is definitely a quirk of Superlemmini, as in all the other engines they simply die. 

I think my issue is probably that I overwrote something with a file from an older SL version.
I can't get it to extract again... in the two minutes I had to try.

Do you mean the extraction simply fails or there's no pop-up asking you where to extract? If the latter, simply delete your Superlemmini directory and then double-click the .jar file and it should ask you for extraction.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2021, 05:20:02 AM »
Thanks Kaywhyn , I wanted to see if I can execute it.

Yes it's really annoying. I got the replay but it's like yours, Just wanted to see if I could do it.
At least putting those blockers on those 2 builder steps from the top 2 builders were easier since their facing right.
Seem's like when going left though it's much more difficult to work.

I tried to solve it first though by using Namida's NL solution. I couldn't get it to work since he had 1 blocker put at the end of a left facing builder, which in SL
seems to have issues. But this solution is easier since that bottom builder built into an already placed blocker. The middle and top one was putting a blocker into
a right facing builder which seems to not have issues.

Kinda reminds of that one spot in Reunions "The Flameout" where I have 2 solutions, 1 where you interupt the basher with the buillder (without destoying the
terrain) before becoming a blocker.
and the 2nd solution where putting a blocker on the end of a right-fiacing builder(harder-but at least it's right facing).

Anyways no fix other than the flamethrowers. In NL's version the climbers will get burnt if they just climb on the walls. Plus if one can just use the climbers to bypass the flamethrowers it makes the level too easy.



Anyways here is my replay.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:05:38 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 06:03:24 AM »
ok here are replays for Danger 16-30.

Seems like other than fixing the flamethrowers in Danger 26, no other fixes needed.

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2021, 06:25:44 AM »
ok also here are replays for Mild thru Danger.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:04:39 PM by ericderkovits »

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2021, 07:54:18 PM »
I just noticed you forgot to remove the 100 minute timer for the changed level Psycho 6 (Lemming Crossover)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2021, 10:07:56 PM »
ok here are Psycho 1-10 replays.

The level Psycho 8 (Snowed in!) I saved 33 (1 over the requirement) because the basher who bashes left instead of dying at the far left of the snow (as intended)
turns back around (to the right) because in SL the sides aren't deadly. I would shift the left some to the right so the basher will just fall off the screen.


Other than the above level no fixes needed.

Most of these 10 levels were difficult


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2021, 11:24:41 PM »
Just a heads up, as I had problems with this on Dos as well. Either Psycho 16 is impossible or if it is it's extremely difficult to do. Even with framestepping, I can't get it to work. It was similar to when I played the level on Dos. It was one of the two levels I couldn't do due to no directional select or assign skills while paused. In other words, I know the solution, I just can't execute it on Dos. It's impossible to tell where the basher is while it's going, though I suspect it's just due to the extremely wonky basher mechanic on SL. Anyone can feel free to prove me wrong and get a solving replay, though.

Regarding Psycho 8, once again the saying "if it's not broke, don't fix it" applies. I would just leave it, as there's nothing wrong with going over the requirement. This pack was originally for Dos, not NL, and the left edge is not deadly there as well. Again, perfectly fine for levels to play out differently, as SL IS NOT NL.

Finally, it's not surprising that the Psycho levels have proven difficult, as this rank features a big jump in difficulty compared to the previous ranks. As a matter of fact, I consider many of the earlier levels of Psycho much harder than the ones later and at the end of the rank.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2021, 11:45:27 PM »
OK guys, slow down a bit, there's a lot to get through here! ;P

Quote from: ericderkovits re: Danger 25
bashing into that left steal vertical beam won't turn around the lemming (required for the solution)

As kaywhyn demonstrated in his replay, it is possible, although it does require more precision in the assignment of the Basher. I personally think it's an acceptable trade-off rather than potentially messing up the level by changing its layout or skillset, so I'm leaving this one as it is.

Quote from: ericderkovits re: Danger 26
putting blockers on the end of builder steps while another one is building to turn him around seems to not work(especially builders building left). And to do it 4 times (2 times in each direction)
---
Also the flamethrowers need adjusting as one can just send the climbers up to either exit and they won't die from the flamethrowers (not supposed to happen)

Note that this is a left exit solution. The right exit appears to be impossible with the given skillset. With one more builder, then it will be possible.

Again, kaywhyn has demonstrated that it is possible, albeit slightly more fiddly. Also, I've personally speedrun Down, Along, Up. In That Order in SuperLemmini several times so... the trick is absolutely possible to execute several times in a row, even under pressure ;P

It's possible to add an extra Builder to the skillset and maybe allow a couple of deaths to make it a touch more forgiving (and to the make the right exit possible to reach, as per kaywhyn's comment) if people agree that it's worth doing this. I've added a poll, and asked namida's opinion as well. NOTE: namida pointed out that the right exit is not possible to reach in NL either, so I see no reason to make it possible. Also, the added execution difficulty posed by SuperLemmini is one of the things that makes it more of a challenge to play the level, so... I voted No. I'll only change this if there's an overwhelming majority of Yes votes.

Meanwhile, I've fixed the flamethrowers because I agree with Eric here; although it's one of those "SL behaves differently" things, this is something that clearly ruins the level rather than just makes a NeoLemmix talisman impossible, or saves the odd extra lem.

I just noticed you forgot to remove the 100 minute timer for the changed level Psycho 6 (Lemming Crossover)

Thanks for the heads up, fixed.

The level Psycho 8 (Snowed in!) I saved 33 (1 over the requirement) because the basher who bashes left instead of dying at the far left of the snow (as intended) turns back around (to the right) because in SL the sides aren't deadly

Hmmm. I think I agree again with kaywhyn here; it doesn't outright break the level, and in fact is saving an extra lem who otherwise dies unnecessarily. I'll leave this one as it is.

Either Psycho 16 is impossible or if it is it's extremely difficult to do

I'm still finishing the Danger levels, you guys are way ahead of me! Since we're now making significant progress though, I'll wait until we've all finished playing through the whole pack and then release all level fixes in one update.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 04:22:14 PM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2021, 12:55:38 AM »
As kaywhyn demonstrated in his replay, it is possible, although it does require more precision in the assignment of the Basher. I personally think it's an acceptable trade-off rather than potentially messing up the level by changing its layout or skillset, so I'm leaving this one as it is.

Alternatively, here's an easier solution for Danger 25, as I kind of hate the trick I use to save the basher.

Quote
Again, kaywhyn has demonstrated that it is possible, albeit slightly more fiddly. Also, I've personally speedrun Down, Along, Up. In That Order in SuperLemmini several times so... the trick is absolutely possible to execute several times in a row, even under pressure ;P

It's important to note that Mayhem 5 is far easier to do just because you don't need to put blockers on the builder staircases, whereas for Danger 26 it is required :P

Quote
Meanwhile, I've fixed the flamethrowers because I agree with Eric here; although it's one of those "SL behaves differently" things, this is something that clearly ruins the level rather than just makes a NeoLemmix talisman impossible, or saves the odd extra lem.

Should be noted that the way I wrote my analysis I was neither in disagreement nor in agreement with fixing the flamethrowers, as I simply pointed out that in SL lemmings don't die when touching the gun of the flamethrower when they should. However, right here, it should be clear that I'm definitely in agreement of their positioning to fix climbers being able to bypass them, as I have forgotten that it will make the level too easy otherwise. Of course, if the terrain was different, such as pieces of overhang were there to prevent that from happening, then of course they won't be able to, but adjusting the flamethrowers is the easiest fix here.

Quote
I'm still finishing the Danger levels, you guys are way ahead of me! Since we're now making significant progress though, I'll wait until we've all finished playing through the whole pack and then release all level fixes in one update.

I should mention that I'm not really seriously playing the pack, as I'm still currently on my hiatus from the game. I just simply jump in and prove a level's still possible based on the comments I'm seeing saying that there are problems with a particular level. However, as I think I might be the only one among the SL users who has completed all of the pack, both on Dos (with the exception of two levels which I know the solution to but is pretty much impossible to do on Dos due to no directional select and can't assign skills while paused, which Psycho 16 is one of them, another was in the Danger rank which got replaced with a marble level, I think Danger 21, and this was from several years ago) and on New Formats NL (back at the end of last year), I can definitely vouch for this pack being one that should be in people's list of packs to play. Truly plenty of gems in here.

Other than Psycho 16 noted above, which I feel might still be possible, I don't think there are any other levels that will prove to be problematic, at least not off the top of my head I can remember any that might not be possible under SL mechanics.

Can probably also hold off on fixing levels and wait for the next SL update as well, though who knows how long it will be before the next version of SL happens ???
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2021, 02:48:41 AM »
I did a fresh install of super lemmini. I installed lemmings plus and the replays.
The guy still jumps in the exit every time. No kidding.

I expected this to fix the issue. I'm out of ideas now.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2021, 07:01:44 AM »
ok here are the replays for Psycho 11-20 except 16 as I'm not sure if it's possible.

No fixes needed for any of the levels. But Psycho 20 was extremely difficult due to the 2 minute timer. finished with only 1 second left. Also there are some extremely exact placement of skill asssignments in the level due to the time.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2021, 10:02:01 AM »
Ok, NTTD was one that I was a bit worried about whether it would be possible to finish on time, but good to know it's solvable under the SL timer. Going by your comments, it sounds like you might had overcomplicated it that resulted in time coming down to the wire. The puzzle itself is not hard, it's only really hard due to the very tight timer, which is the main obstacle and hence the challenge itself but is otherwise a straightforward level without the timer. In any case, one replay is sufficient to prove that a level is possible.

I did a fresh install of super lemmini. I installed lemmings plus and the replays.
The guy still jumps in the exit every time. No kidding.

I expected this to fix the issue. I'm out of ideas now.

I'm out of ideas as well. There's probably something up with the styles in your copy, though since you said that you did a fresh install of SL and it still didn't fix the problem, that's probably not it either. However, one last thing I can think of is probably the copy of the WinLem files you're using. Do you own an actual copy, or did you use one of the download links here in order to do the extraction?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2021, 01:57:42 PM »
My copy of winlems is from the 90s and still works okay on windows 10.
I like how winlems shows cartoon text of the lemmings speech. And a cool start screen too.

Maybe I need to download a different copy?
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2021, 03:31:20 AM »
Here's a download you can try: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ugpmlpv4x6urg72/AAADQ3X8m--M4or_akcmeUo2a?dl=1. There are other download links for WinLem files in some other places somewhere on this site. See if this fixes your problem of lemmings exiting earlier than they should.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2021, 07:22:52 AM »
ok here are the replays for Psycho 21-30 except 23 and 24
Again Psycho 27 No time to die (Part II) was another time cruncher, finished with only 2 seconds left.

Psycho 23 and 24 need fixes

Psycho 23
Can't dig between the 2 steel plates (below the hatch) as they're too close together. In SL the digger will not dig between the 2 plates as he hits steel even though in NL he doesn't. One does need the steel plates to be close together to compress the lemmings (like in NL). But even if you widen the gap between the 2 plates, then the lemmings won't be compressed enough to make it through the zapper traps(if the gap is widened then less than the 32 will make it)
 
Psycho 24
It seems putting the blocker next to the trap won't block lemmings on the right side (where in NL the blocker will) due to the traps big hitbox in SL. May have to add another blocker.

I'll let WillLem try to fix these 2 levels

The other ones no fixes needed.


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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2021, 08:21:12 AM »
ok, great news.
 
I got Psycho 16 "Crosswork" to work.

replay attached.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2021, 09:21:42 AM »
Ok, I was going to keep trying on Pyscho 16 once I had returned from my hiatus, but looks like that isn't necessary anymore. What I suspected about Psycho 16 being possible has been confirmed. I had a feeling it was possible all along, based on how I got it going quite far in a few of my attempts before failing, and also as it should theoretically be possible on Dos as well. The biggest difference is that it's far harder to do on SL than NL.

I have also taken a look at Psycho 24, and it is possible but currently only passable via a severe backroute. Replay attached. I should note that despite how it completely bypasses the intended route, this is still a very difficult solution to execute, as there's a lot of precision needed. I also hate how in my solution the climbers are able to get past obstacles even when there's some ceiling above that in other engines they can't. SL also has a very odd builder quirk in that it seems that builders are able to build much further into walls than usual, meaning you expect the builder to turn around after laying a builder brick that touches terrain, but he doesn't and is able to lay one more additional brick before finally turning around. This is very problematic for gaps that are about a single builder staircase length.

As for the intended route, the best I have managed is 14, meaning a fix could be to simply lower the save requirement to 14, as saving 15 seems to be out of reach. At the same time, it does require a very odd quirk of the climber. Also, it's very easy to block my backroute with steel and OWAs if it's decided that the intended route should be enforced. It's a shame the main trick for the level doesn't work in SL, while it does on both NL and Dos.

One final note: The masher trap either has a bigger trap area on SL or seems to trigger faster than it does on NL. A way I tested this is to max out the RR and release 3 lemmings in a row. In NL, the last two lemmings both get by the trap without getting killed, but on SL both the first and third lemmings get killed. I think it's a larger trap trigger, as even when placing a blocker the frame just before he steps onto the button the lemmings coming from the right get killed before they get a chance to bounce off the blocker.



So, after all this, only Psycho 23 remains elusive. Since the intended way doesn't work on SL and I have tried everything I could to see if it's still solvable, I have not been able to solve it. This one will require much thought, and it might even either require a rework, or just a replacement altogether.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2021, 04:48:15 PM »
yes, I posted the backroute for Psycho 24 in NLs version of the level. And unless the level is fixed for the backroute in NL, I guess it can remain the same in SL.

But I guess WillLem can decide on the fix for the intended solution in SL as it is his project.

And as far as Psycho 23 it may need an adjustment and perhaps lower the save requirement. And again WillLem can decide on a fix for the level (if possible).

Edit: Credit Kaywhyn for finding this backroute both here in SL and I credited you also now in NL
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 06:05:01 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2021, 05:56:57 PM »
namida hasn't been and won't be fixing backroutes to LPI anymore for a very long time now, nor does he intend to, as it's a very old pack. Instead, the only fixes that will be made are for compatibility reasons to make sure the pack's still playable. A lot of them remain in New Formats NL, anyway, not just Psycho 24. This essentially means that the backroute will remain, although all decisions as to whether it should remain in SL should be left to WillLem for the SL conversion. The important thing was making sure that the levels were possible. Also, it's courteous to credit the person who originally found the backroute for Psycho 24 :P I have confirmed that it works on NL long before you posted it. I simply chose not to upload my solution because I know about namida not bothering to fix up backroutes for LPI as he considered the pack "final" a very long time ago.

For Psycho 23, it's important to realize the source of the problem, and that is if the digger goes through a lot of steel, he'll stop. Any other steel setting(s) that's tried the steel will just simply get destroyed if he's also going through solid terrain. In other words, it's not really possible to emulate NL's way of compressing the crowd via digger(s), as then they won't be tightly packed enough to minimize losses to the traps, especially since they're very fast triggering.

In my testing, the only way to achieve such compression is via a blocker inside the digger pit once low enough. However, adding a second blocker would make the level way too easy, as you can simply make a two blocker trap. A more natural fix would be to replace the traps with the slicer one, although it would also make the level too easy.

Ok, after even more testing, I seem to have a good suggested fix: Add two bombers. Different way to achieve the main NL trick and does require a skillset change, but it does get the job done and at least makes the level solvable while keeping everything else the same. It might be possible to adapt if one wants to do the compression somewhere else, although it would likely require moving the steel plates down a bit, as the wall will still be low enough for them to get out of the pit without problems.

Once again, WillLem it's up to you how you want to fix the levels, as you're the author of the conversion. I'm simply suggesting some possible ways to fix them. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.1d - LEVEL UPDATE]
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2021, 04:42:02 PM »
Finished levels 16-30 of Danger. All levels solved without hints :lemcat:, with the following exceptions:

Solved with hints from LPs by IchoTolot and Swerdis, and replays by ericderkovits:

Level 16 The Oddstack
Level 18 The Buildo Station
Level 26 With Love, From Trogdor
Level 28 Coalburner

Psycho replays to follow shortly...

Offline WillLem

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[DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2021, 07:01:22 PM »
As I'm going through the Psycho levels, I'm noticing that a fair few of them are extremely pixel-precise. Whilst this is not necessarily a bad thing on NeoLemmix, in SuperLemmini it can potentially make the levels less enjoyable. SuperLemmini is a good engine for enjoying the more execution-based challenges that the game can offer, sure, but there are degrees of enjoyability and I'd say it's a fairly sharp downward incline into annoyance when a level gives basically no margin to the player.

A bit of pixel precision on levels such as From Trogdor With Love, Lemming Crossover and Express Lane is challenging, enjoyable and satisfying to pull off. However, on levels such as The Parking Lot, Turn Back With Care and Snowed In, it just feels messy and unnecessary, especially when you've had to restart the level for the 10th time and play most of it frame-by-frame with the level paused, having already worked out the solution.

I'll continue through the Psycho levels later this evening and probably get together a list of the levels which I feel are most problematic in this regard. For now though, what are people's general thoughts on this? Should certain levels be given a bit of playing room whilst obviously preserving and maintaining their intended solutions, or should they be left exactly as they are as long as they are solvable, in spite of them being a bit too pixel-precise?

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2021, 09:00:35 PM »
Of the Levels you mentioned, the ones that gave me the most trouble with pixel precision were

Danger 26 With love from Trogdor - This one was very difficult due to getting the blockers placed at the end of the builders builder steps to turn around a builder to meet the wall (this one took me several tries. In SL it's much more difficult than in NL for sure.)

Psycho 2 The Parking lot I also agree was extremely difficult only because of the 1 minute timer. I solved the level with the final lemming exiting right as the
              timer turned to zero. Setting that blocker at an extreme point was very precise so that all the lemmings made it to the exit on time. I agree this level
              wasn't enjoyable. Perhaps SL's timer is a bit too fast making this level too difficult in SL. Perhaps a fix would would make it better so it's more lenient
              such as lemming count or slight terrain change.     

Lemming Crossover, Express Lane, and Turn back with care I didn't have too much problem solving with pixel precision.

Psycho 8 "Snowed in" was kinda annoying with pixel precison only to place those builders heading toward the exit. Every builder placement had to be stretched
               so the builder steps would reach onto the snow where the exit is.
               Perhaps just slightly move that snow area a tad left would help. 
             

Now as far as the remaining Psycho levels. The ones I found extremely difficult were:

Psycho 5 Lightspeed lemming. This one was very difficult due to save requirement. I think adding a few more bashers would help stalling 1 lemming to get to
              OW block a tad later would make it less annoying.

Psycho 16 Crosswork. Of course this one is super hard in SL. Not sure how to fix this one to make it less difficult.
Psycho 17 A Perfect Nightmare was pretty hard too, with skill placement and timing.

Psycho 20 and 27 No Time to Die and No Time to Die (Part II) were very difficult due to timer. Precise placement of skills needed. Not sure how to make it not so
                           difficult.

The rest of the Psycho rank levels I didn't find difficult at all, with pixel precision or timing of skills.

Of course Psycho 23 "Death Row" Needs some kind of fix. Not sure what you want to do with this one.

And Psycho 24 can only be backrouted due to masher traps big hitbox. Maybe something can be done to enforce the intended solution, otherwise leave as is and
accept the backroute solution. This one I can deal with either way. It's your decision what you want to do with this one.


             
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2021, 09:28:48 PM »
Quote from: ericderkovits
Danger 26 With love from Trogdor - This one was very difficult due to getting the blockers placed at the end of the builders builder steps to turn around a builder to meet the wall (this one took me several tries. In SL it's much more difficult than in NL for sure.)

I've thought a lot about this one; I really like this level, and its intended solution is awesome. I think this is one example of the execution difficulty being very irritating but also super satisfying when you finally get it right. Adding an extra Builder could make it less annoying, buuuut it kind of also destroys the solution. Since it's the only level in Danger that's really like this, I'm mostly happy to leave it as it is.

Quote from: ericderkovits
Psycho 2 The Parking lot I also agree was extremely difficult only because of the 1 minute timer

I basically couldn't solve this level, I had to watch your replay. The fiddliness of your solution to meet the timer is unbelievable. I think this one's another example of SL's faster timer causing issues, so I've lowered the lem count & save requirement on this one.

Quote from: ericderkovits
Turn back with care I didn't have too much problem solving with pixel precision.

This one is an easy fix to allow a little bit more playing room: simply moving the trap 4px to the right makes all the difference and I feel is worth doing, since the solution is exactly the same and it just makes playing it that bit more satisfying. I bet this level is a doozy with Timed Bombers ;P

Quote from: ericderkovits
Psycho 8 "Snowed in" was kinda annoying with pixel precison only to place those builders heading toward the exit. Every builder placement had to be stretched so the builder steps would reach onto the snow where the exit is. Perhaps just slightly move that snow area a tad left would help.

I'm thinking lowering the snow mound that the builder starts from is the answer for this one; I might also make the steel easier to get past as well. It'll mean not needing to stretch the bridge, and the miner can start sooner as well to give breathing room for the save requirement.
             
Quote from: ericderkovits
Psycho 5 Lightspeed lemming. This one was very difficult due to save requirement. I think adding a few more bashers would help stalling 1 lemming to get to OW block a tad later would make it less annoying.

I mostly agree; this one is fairly do-able to be honest, you just need to make sure you keep an eye on how many lems have died. I'm thinking 10 extra Bashers and a slightly lower save requirement would fix it, but also probably make it a bit too easy; I'll keep ruminating on this one.

Quote from: ericderkovits
Psycho 16 Crosswork. Of course this one is super hard in SL. Not sure how to fix this one to make it less difficult.
Psycho 17 A Perfect Nightmare was pretty hard too, with skill placement and timing.
Psycho 20 and 27 No Time to Die and No Time to Die (Part II) were very difficult due to timer. Precise placement of skills needed.
---
Of course Psycho 23 "Death Row" Needs some kind of fix. Not sure what you want to do with this one.

And Psycho 24 can only be backrouted due to masher traps big hitbox. Maybe something can be done to enforce the intended solution, otherwise leave as is and
accept the backroute solution. This one I can deal with either way. It's your decision what you want to do with this one.

Haven't got to these levels yet; reading the comments from yourself and kaywhyn, my instinct is that these will need some work to make them more engine-friendly.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:04:29 AM by WillLem »

Offline mobius

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Re: [DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2021, 10:41:37 PM »
This isn't aimed at said level but at level design in general:

While I missed the poll I'd lean to the "give the player more options" option when in doubt if applicable. That is; if the level is still fun and especially if people still find it a fun challenge and isn't trivial.

"Duality" by Yawg comes to mind again and again as an example of a level where several very different solutions were found, none of which matched Yawg's original and yet this level was very popular and *very* difficult, at least in it's day.
"remember the strategy against feeling powerless: 1. become more conscious about yourself, your actions and the world around you, 2. take every opportunity for solidarity, support people and organizations, who are active at the "front" and 3rd. Be grateful for the good you hold in your hand and share it generously. This way you will have an enormous effect - little drops of water, little grains of sand, make the mighty ocean and the beautiful land" -Andreas Vollenweider


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2021, 11:21:51 PM »
I don't mind pixel precision, just as long as there isn't too much of it in a short amount of time. It's kind of like the occasional hidden trap, where I don't mind it at first, but put too many in a row then I will mind. Interestingly enough, I don't remember a lot of the Psycho levels having a lot of it when I did my LP of LPI near the end of last year. However, as I mentioned before, the Psycho rank is a huge step up in difficulty from the other ranks. In my experiences, I found a lot of the early Psycho levels harder than many of the later ones. 

Anyway, I've taken a look at some of the Psycho levels that were mentioned, and here are my findings/assessment:

Psycho 2 - Yea, way too much precision needed with a very unforgiving timer. I think I remember finishing with just a second to spare in the New Formats NL version, although I ended up using a lot of RR manipulation. Since SL's timer is faster, I think this can definitely do with reducing the lemming count.

Psycho 5 - Hmm, seems a lot easier to do on SL, as I'm seeing the same thing as Turrican did with the bashers, where you can get through the OWW much faster than you can on NL due to them getting interrupted and walking up into the wall each time. In a way, I feel a fix isn't needed, as I have a lot of bashers leftover, though I think technically it can be tweaked to maybe save an extra or two with them. Replay attached.

Psycho 8 - Most definitely very little room for error, as I recall in my LP of LPI. From what I remember, in my solution the final builder hit his head at the last split second moment and just barely made it over land. I think I'm definitely in to reduce the precision here.

Psycho 16 - Regardless of whether the level is impossible or not (it's been proven possible), the easiest fix here to reduce the precision/difficulty needed is to simply shorten the length of the lattice section.

In regards to the NTTD levels, the timer is super tight if you allow it to be. My replays here ended up with some time to spare, so therefore it is possible to finish either one with seconds remaining. In particular, I really cheesed my way through with Part II, not even using the bottom right half. Really, they're solve in any way you can.

For Psycho 24, as I said before the best I was able to do if taking the intended route is 14 instead of 15. I don't mind whether the backroute I found is kept in or not, although TBT I lean towards keeping it in just because it's not that much easier than the intended solution. Still, your call, not mine.

Once again, I'm still on my hiatus from the game, so not really seriously playing Lemmings, especially since I've already completed LPI a few times and hence it's not really high priority for me :P Also a reminder that if you want you can possibly wait for the next SL update to drop before the next LPI patch, as everything will need to be rechecked once it does anyway ;) At the same time, who knows when that will be.   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [DISC][SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I [Pixel Precision?]
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2021, 12:05:31 AM »
Yes, I redid Psycho 5 "Lightspeed Lemming". This time I had plenty of bashers left over, Previous attempt used every one including a couple of floaters.  So Yes definitely doesn't need any kind of fix. I had 10 bashers left even though Kaywhyn had 13.

my Reattempt replay.

Offline WillLem

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[SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2021, 02:59:41 AM »
V1.2 Update

For this update, all levels have been fully tested and a full set of replays is now available. Meanwhile, the following levels have been fixed:

V1.2 Level Fixes (click to show/hide)

Some of these fixes are to prevent backroutes, others are to reduce the amount of fiddliness needed to execute solutions which don't work quite as well in SuperLemmini. The overall result is, hopefully, a pack which plays more enjoyably and allows the player to focus on solving the levels.

Download Lemmings Plus I V1.2 8-) | Replays available from the OP.



NOTE: There will be another update to this pack following the release of the next version of SuperLemmini.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:21:19 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2021, 03:15:53 AM »
Just posting my replay for the new Psycho 23 to show that the level's possible with all traps present, as honestly I was confused when I read that one of the traps was removed, as the time when I was doing some testing I was able to save the original requirement :P Otherwise, nice to see that my suggested fix was used ;)

edit: One more replay, for the new Psycho 24. Main intended blocker trick now works. Very well done here, WillLem! :)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:28:19 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2021, 05:29:12 PM »
Just posting my replay for the new Psycho 23 to show that the level's possible with all traps present, as honestly I was confused when I read that one of the traps was removed, as the time when I was doing some testing I was able to save the original requirement :P Otherwise, nice to see that my suggested fix was used ;)

edit: One more replay, for the new Psycho 24. Main intended blocker trick now works. Very well done here, WillLem! :)

Thanks for these, kaywhyn. I've edited Psycho 23 to make it far less fiddly, but if people think that it's playable enough with the original 6 traps then I'll restore the original version in the next update.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2021, 07:47:37 PM »
ok, Here is my Psycho 23 replay. Saved 33 due to removal of 1 zapper trap. Very easy still to save the 32 with all the traps present. So I agree with Kaywhyn that the removed zapper trap should be put back as it's not fiddly or difficult to save 32 with all traps present.