[SUG][PLAYER] Object Suggestion: Vortex

[WillLem]

A Vortex would be a special kind of exit intended for use in midair. Any lemming which hits its trigger exits the level regardless of how they got there, and counts towards the save total.

Seems a good way to go given the can of worms that's been opened by the recent "Midair exit rules" topic, and also would help to keep things simple.

i.e. If a level has a regular exit, then regular rules (whatever they turn out to be after all this has been resolved) apply. If a level has a vortex, then anything goes

[IchoTolot]

I like this idea!

It could be a better solution to the whole midair discussion.

Normal exits would then require solid ground to exit. This just sucks everything inside its trigger area into it.

Only the visual aspect would need to treated carefully. The vortex must come through and the exit part must come through.

[WillLem]

It may also make sense for it to have a circular trigger area; not sure if that's possible.

I'm glad you like the idea, Icho

[WillLem]

Graphic concept, based on the Crystal tileset colour scheme.

The "Vortex" aspect is of course its circular shape and swirling effect. The "Exit" aspect is made clear by the familiar "sunny meadow" theme on the other side.

This particular image would be somewhat difficult to animate, but it hopefully offers some inspiration and gives an idea of the possibilities - simpler versions could of course be produced:



Note the somewhat symbolic "silver lining" on the clouds


Some physics suggestions:

• Circular trigger area if possible, in keeping with its shape and encourages custom designs to follow suit. The trigger area should then be placed in the object's centre, ideally.
• I like the idea of it being lockable - there could be a "dormant" animation which then explodes into a full-on open swirl when the vortex is unlocked - however, it could be argued that these should not be lockable like regular exits.
• They definitely shouldn't have lem count limits; this would negate the purpose of it, which is to be indiscriminate and all-encompassing.
• A different "Exiter" animation, to make it even clearer that it's a Vortex and not a regular exit - I'd suggest the lem gently spinning into it. They'd still say "yippee!", of course. As well as being another non-CPM identifier, it would also act as a helpful signal to the player in cases where designers use the object in place of a regular exit.

[Simon]

The usual method to simulate direct drop is
* normal exit,
* terrain underneath,
* cover with updraft.

In level design, what problems does the vortex solve that the exit-updraft combo doesn't solve?

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

If the vortex can be locked at all, lem limits just like regular exits makes sense - if you think about it, a lem limit exit is basically like a locked exit, but instead of unlocking after a condition is met, it locks after a condition is met.

[WillLem]

In level design, what problems does the vortex solve that the exit-updraft combo doesn't solve?

Shimmier's "Reacher" phase, Jumpers, Floaters and Gliders being able to exit. The current proposal is to remove these behaviours (and possibly others) from regular exits.

Further to that, the Vortex is being proposed as an exit specifically for midair use. The exact benefits/physics of this have yet to be fleshed out really, it's just a concept at this point.

If the vortex can be locked at all, lem limits just like regular exits makes sense - if you think about it, a lem limit exit is basically like a locked exit, but instead of unlocking after a condition is met, it locks after a condition is met.

You're right; I didn't think of it that way. I'm probably 75/25 in favour of "not lockable"; the main idea of the Vortex is that it's all-encompassing, indiscriminate and unlimited.

[WillLem]

How it could differ from a Portal:

It's probably worth making Portals circular as well, in order to differentiate them from regular Teleporters.

The question then arises of how to distinguish a Portal from a Vortex.

Some ideas:

• Make Portals smaller (i.e. only just bigger than a lemming) and Vortexes bigger (at least the size of the ohno_bubble exit, and beyond).
• Give Portals a solid edge (i.e. like a Stargate) and leave Vortexes edgeless (or vice versa).
• Vortexes have a "sunny meadow" (or similar) motif on the "other side", as per regular orig/ohno exits. Portals have no such theme.
• Encourage a generic graphic for Portals which simply get recoloured rather than redesigned between styles.

Note: I'll get on some concepts later today and try to get something uploaded for discussion purposes.

[IchoTolot]

I think the big question we need to ask first is:

- Do we really want the portal as well? This should be asked first as we may end up including another object than the portal inseat. If we do not end up including the portal, then we don't need to invest time to make clear guidelines between them. Also, the portal may not need to be a portal, but rather something else.
I don't say I am for or against the portal!

- If yes, we need to invest the time and create clear guidelines for both: Vortex and Portal. This ensures they won't get mixed up - I like the idea of the vortex being a rough rift that just sucks everything inside and the portal having a clear border, but that's just a first rough thought.

Vortexes have a "sunny meadow" (or similar) motif on the "other side", as per regular orig/ohno exits. Portals have no such theme.

This could also be a good idea. We may end up needing several differences though.

- After that we can create more refined graphical prototypes and discuss the exact aspects of their workings.

[WillLem]

OK, here are some graphic concepts for both Portal and Vortex. First up is Portal, since it's a strong contender for inclusion anyway:



(Link to full video of Portal Test with sound)

And now for the proposed Vortex:



(Link to full video of Vortex Test with sound)

Things to note:

• The Portal is much smaller
• The Vortex has a "sunny meadow" theme on the other side of it, familiar to existing exit graphics
• The Vortex has its own exiting animation
• The Portal is "solid" and "man-made" looking, whereas the Vortex has more of an ethereal, "naturally-existing-in-space" quality to it
• Both are circular and swirly, but the type of swirls used is different

[IchoTolot]

Thoughts from discord:

Portal:

- I am getting lemmings revolution vibes from the portal.

- If it doesn't work both ways: Marking it with "in" and "out" could be beneficial

- I think the portal would benefit from a little stand that holds the outer ring at the bottom. It does make it look more "lem-made". This would be a great addition.


Vortex:

- For a concept it's good, but I think the vortex is little bit too big currently though. A bit smaller and I think it's good.


In summary I like both initial concepts though even if there is still room for improvements or other different concepts. 

[WillLem]

For lockable/limitable Vortexes, or if people just want a generally more "Exit-looking" Vortex, I would suggest something along these lines:

[namida]

Circular trigger area if possible, in keeping with its shape and encourages custom designs to follow suit. The trigger area should then be placed in the object's centre, ideally.

This is not going to happen.

[Strato Incendus]

Ooh, for portals like in Lemmings Revolution I definitely like these ideas!

As a special type of exit, meanwhile, it seems redundant. If you want to create an exit which you can access from all sides while still allowing to exit immediately, you could just place the exit somewhere at the edge of the screen and place such a portal in the original intended position of the exit instead. That way, any lemming who jumps into the portal from any direction would be directly teleported into the exit. (I've used this "teleport into exit" method with regular teleporters on several of my own levels before, e.g. "Mission impossible" from Pit Lems, or "Crazy train" from Lemmings World Tour.)

[WillLem]

Smaller pink Vortex, plus a new blue one:



Introducing the Vortexit (this one makes quite a nice exit graphic anyway ):

Circular trigger area

This is not going to happen.

Fair enough

As a special type of exit, meanwhile, it seems redundant. If you want to create an exit which you can access from all sides while still allowing to exit immediately, you could just place the exit somewhere at the edge of the screen and place such a portal in the original intended position of the exit instead.

Meh... this seems like too much of a "workaround" solution. I mean, yes, it works, but it just means more stuff on the screen. Good shout for if the Vortex gets rejected as an idea, though!

[namida]

Meh... this seems like too much of a "workaround" solution. I mean, yes, it works, but it just means more stuff on the screen. Good shout for if the Vortex gets rejected as an idea, though!

Also, the workaround would fall apart if a lemming is falling into an exit from splat height - fall distance is carried over when going through a teleporter.

[WillLem]

Meh... this seems like too much of a "workaround" solution. I mean, yes, it works, but it just means more stuff on the screen.

Also, the workaround would fall apart if a lemming is falling into an exit from splat height - fall distance is carried over when going through a teleporter.

Yes, exactly. So you'd need an updraft as well in that scenario. Eeesh!

Vortex FTW!

[Strato Incendus]

Also, the workaround would fall apart if a lemming is falling into an exit from splat height - fall distance is carried over when going through a teleporter.

I know - you're talking to the person who made the Pit Lems levels "The long way down" and "Controlled overload", after all, which made excessive use of this part of the game physics...

Yes, exactly. So you'd need an updraft as well in that scenario. Eeesh!

...and in turn, this would have been exactly my suggestion on how to handle this problem, and I knew nobody would figure this out more quickly than WillLem himself!

After all, nobody has used updrafts on exit triggers more frequently than him, as far as I know. In fact, hard-to-see updrafts in front of exits were something I myself had criticised about Lemminas, even though these updrafts were actually set to "overwrite" to display layered on top of the exit, so not really "invisible", just hard to spot against the background of the exit object itself.



That said, you could also use an anti-splat pad on the exit, too. Since for this application, terrain would be required within the exit trigger area anyway.

And I think the anti-splat pad in this context is a great example to illustrate the large overlap (and thus redundancy) between regular exits and the proposed vortex:
The difference only matters in very few cases.

With anti-splat pads, the fact that you could place them in the air somewhere with no terrain inside, so that lemmings could fall through them without having their fall height reset like from an updraft was a crucial enough difference in my book, alongside anti-splat pads having existed before and being the logical counterpart to splat pads.

Vortices however would be an entirely new object, while basically just being a subtype of exit (like locked / non-locked exits). At this point it seems to me like regarding teleporters, Arty's super-teleporter, and the future prospect of portals as three different types of objects. Or like the non-lethal Stoners and Bombers you proposed a long time ago.

[Proxima]

Also, the workaround would fall apart if a lemming is falling into an exit from splat height - fall distance is carried over when going through a teleporter.

Yes, but do portals necessarily have to behave like teleporters?

On the one hand, I get the consistency argument -- if they behave alike (except for teleporters having the one-lemming-at-a-time behaviour) then there is less for a new player to learn. On the other hand, one argument for portals is that we can't remove one-at-a-time teleporters without breaking a ton of levels, so let's make a fresh start with a new object, and make portals into what teleporters should always have been.

From that point of view, I would definitely say let's get rid of the silly skills-continuing-through-teleporter behaviour and have the lemming pop out as if he'd just spawned. I'm not dead set that fall distance should also be reset, but it makes sense that it should.

[WillLem]

That said, you could also use an anti-splat pad on the exit, too.

Or, you could have a Vortex! Thus removing the need for a messy combination of teleporters/portals, updrafts and/or anti-splat pads to simulate the behaviour in question.

Having said that - since those other object types already exist, I can see why you think that this new object type may be somewhat redundant. However, simplicity is one of the factors in this whole equation, and the Vortex addresses that very directly.

Vortices however would ... basically just being a subtype of exit (like locked / non-locked exits)

Not so. They would actually be a much more powerful type of exit, allowing any lemming that comes into contact with its trigger to exit the level. They would also exist in counterpoint to the proposed removal of Floaters, Gliders, Reachers and Jumpers from the list of states that are currently exitable from regular exits.


Should Vortexes be lockable and/or limitable? This is an important question since the object could potentially be used to fix broken levels.

[Dullstar]

Also, the workaround would fall apart if a lemming is falling into an exit from splat height - fall distance is carried over when going through a teleporter.

Yes, but do portals necessarily have to behave like teleporters?

On the one hand, I get the consistency argument -- if they behave alike (except for teleporters having the one-lemming-at-a-time behaviour) then there is less for a new player to learn. On the other hand, one argument for portals is that we can't remove one-at-a-time teleporters without breaking a ton of levels, so let's make a fresh start with a new object, and make portals into what teleporters should always have been.

From that point of view, I would definitely say let's get rid of the silly skills-continuing-through-teleporter behaviour and have the lemming pop out as if he'd just spawned. I'm not dead set that fall distance should also be reset, but it makes sense that it should.

On this topic, I think that portals should probably retain this behavior. I think the just spawned behavior is more intuitive, personally, but I don't think we should introduce that as an inconsistency - particularly because if there *was* an inconsistency, I would expect the *portal* to allow lemmings to continue and the *teleporter* not to, instead of the other way around.


Similarly, I think it's likely people will want the locked/limited vortex exits; let's just go ahead and include those too. If the object is supposed to be just like an exit, but with different rules about who can use the exit, let's give it all the same features, too. It seems a bit odd to have a choice between [an exit that is capable of locking, but has limitations as to who can exit], or [an exit that cannot lock, but has no limitations as to who can exit].


We may also wish to consider if, if we add this object, should OhNoers still be allowed to use the regular exits?

[IchoTolot]

and make portals into what teleporters should always have been.

Let's say that is highly biased. I still think teleporters should only be able to handle 1 guest at a time. It depends on the viewpoint.

We may also wish to consider if, if we add this object, should OhNoers still be allowed to use the regular exits?

Of course.

They are alive, and if they stand on solid ground they should exit. Otherwise you have another big inconsistancy. They do not abuse any midair extra rule and therefore don't even fall into the special cases the vortex should cover!

Blockers can exit, builders can exit, etc and so should bombers/stoners before they reach their final destination.

The fact that they are still alive is proven as they retain blocker attributes after bombing a blocker and can still fall in that state.

Also, the fact that you suddenly the need to include vortexes even on ground level as normal walkers also need to exit in quite a few nuke solutions would give away the well hidden solution immediately ruining the solution in the progress. Again, vortexes shall cover the mid air exiting mechanics and nuke solutions don't fall into that category at all!

The best nuke levels often hide the nuke solution in plain sight!

[WillLem]

I think that portals should probably retain this behavior. I think the just spawned behavior is more intuitive, personally, but I don't think we should introduce that as an inconsistency - particularly because if there *was* an inconsistency, I would expect the *portal* to allow lemmings to continue and the *teleporter* not to, instead of the other way around.

I agree, but I also see the benefit in having a teleporter object with "reset" properties. Portals should reset.

Similarly, I think it's likely people will want the locked/limited vortex exits; let's just go ahead and include those too. If the object is supposed to be just like an exit, but with different rules about who can use the exit, let's give it all the same features, too.

Agreed; I've come around to being in favour of this. +1

We may also wish to consider if, if we add this object, should OhNoers still be allowed to use the regular exits?

Yes, they should. They're standing on ground, are technically still alive, and can drop (as opposed to the other "dying" animations, which are all stationary).

The only thing I would add to this is that Drowners should be able to use regular exits for pretty much the same reasons (the fact that they can be assigned Swimmers displaces the absence of drop movement present in the Ohnoer).

and make portals into what teleporters should always have been.

Let's say that is highly biased. I still think teleporters should only be able to handle 1 guest at a time. It depends on the viewpoint.

I agree with Icho that it makes sense for teleporters to only allow 1 lem at a time, but I agree with Proxima that reset behaviour should also have been factored in. We now have the opportunity to do that with Portals, so why not?

[IchoTolot]

I agree with Icho that it makes sense for teleporters to only allow 1 lem at a time, but I agree with Proxima that reset behaviour should also have been factored in. We now have the opportunity to do that with Portals, so why not?

I aggree that the portal does not nessesarily be just like the teleporter. If it also sucks the lemming up it could indeed be logical that it interrupts the skill as well.

That discussion would be for the portal topic though.

The optical look for portals is relevant here due to the possible overlap with Vortexes.

[namida]

The only thing I would add to this is that Drowners should be able to use regular exits for pretty much the same reasons (the fact that they can be assigned Swimmers displaces the absence of drop movement present in the Ohnoer).

They're not on terrain. Swimmers I can see as a special case, because the Swimmer skill essentially turns water into terrain (albeit terrain with some unusual properties) for that individual lemming. Drowners are just a death animation that can be last-minute-saved. In particular, a lemming that is drowning with no ability to swim cannot move himself into the exit.

It is possible to have a case where the pixel where the drowner's "pin" is, is all three of exit, water and solid terrain. I believe this edge case should be handled with a special rule so that the behavior a drowner would have in a "normal" setup remains the case. Of course, in any situation where a drowning lemming in front of an exit is assigned a Swimmer, I would say he should then immediately exit.

[WillLem]

What do people think of this as a possible "more-exit-looking" version of the Vortex?



Does the swirling need to be made clearer? Should they be strictly mid-air only, and thus building-based design for Vortexes be discouraged?

Just looking to re-open this discussion a bit because it sort of got side-tracked onto Portals for a few posts and then fizzled off just as it was gathering momentum.

Full disclosure: I'm probably about 50/50 as far as the Vortex idea is concerned. I initially suggested it as sort of an ironic joke because I felt that the rules around regular exits were in danger of becoming far too restrictive, but if people really do like the idea of Vortexes (and, more to the point, if people want to tighten the rules up around regular exits) then it's worth getting some ideas together.

In particular, it would be useful to know your thoughts on it, @namida, since you're clearly looking at wrapping NL up and these ideas feel possibly a bit too much too late. Some ressurance either way on it would go a long way at this point.

[namida]

In particular, it would be useful to know your thoughts on it, @namida, since you're clearly looking at wrapping NL up and these ideas feel possibly a bit too much too late. Some ressurance either way on it would go a long way at this point.

I haven't been paying too much thought to it, as I'm in one of those "limited interest in NL" phases at the moment and I don't see this being a next-version matter at any rate; it's more likely to be a matter for 12.13. I'm not against the idea (otherwise I'd have shot it down), but I'm not super-convinced.

One thing I did note was the portal-antisplat-exit workaround. I think this workaround is strong enough - considering that levels actually needing it aren't likely to be super common - that we cannot consider the vortex in isolation from the portal. There are setups I can think of where the workaround wouldn't quite cut it. All such setups involve a locked and/or limited-count exit, so I think this gives a heavy lean towards vortexes needing those features too - without them, every possible vortex setup could be replicated with existing object types plus portals.

Even then though - I have to ask whether those cases would come up often enough to justify an additional object type that, outside of those cases, at best helps obscure certain solutions - keeping in mind that many cases that would use a vortex, it would be obvious that you fall / jump / etc into it even if a vortex (or regular exit, if physics were to allow that to work) were placed in the same spot, not every case of using this is obscure (the difficulty may come from "how do you get there with the needed skill left over?" or something like that).

Put it this way - I'm not saying it's an outright "reject it", but especially if portals make the cut - which I think is likely - I would consider vortexes to be a pretty weak contender. On the other hand, if portals don't make the cut, vortexes suddenly become - if not a strong contender, at least a reasonable one.

[Proxima]

What do people think of this as a possible "more-exit-looking" version of the Vortex?

I think it's too confusing for new players, who will just see an exit. A clear visual distinction makes it much clearer that it's a new type of object; and since the distinction from exits would be specifically that they work in mid-air, the grounded "building" graphic obscures that. After all, someone jumping past the front door of a building does not typically find themselves inside!

[WillLem]

I think it's too confusing for new players, who will just see an exit.

There is no way to prove or disprove this.

A clear visual distinction makes it much clearer that it's a new type of object; and since the distinction from exits would be specifically that they work in mid-air, the grounded "building" graphic obscures that.

True; I agree to some extent. However, I think limiting the object in this way weakens the idea somewhat, pushing it more towards "let's just use Portals and regular exits to simulate the desired behaviour".

After all, someone jumping past the front door of a building does not typically find themselves inside!

What about someone jumping into the door, as opposed to past it? The trigger area is supposed to be a point at which the object is interacted with, not traversed.


In light of namida's response, it seems that making Vortexes lockable could be the only justification for keeping the idea afloat.

Thoughts?