[DISC][PLAYER] Midair exit rules

[Dullstar]

If we could agree on a few rules to at least try in an experimental, that might be the way to go.

[WillLem]

9999999999999999999999999999999999 - 1

An acceptable sacrifice.

Hilarious. I'm sure it's more like 9999999999999999999999999999999997 - 1, though.

Show me some exiting jumper behaviors I cannot simulate!

Here are 3. I could think of more, but the debate seems to be winding down now. Note that the following examples presume a midair exit, of course:

1) The quickness and simplicity of one lemming exiting almost immediately with a single click.
2) Jumping across a gap into an exit. Building across it doesn't count because that allows other lemmings to exit and/or other actions to either cancel the builder or destroy the bridge.
3) Jumping over a trap/teleporter and into an exit. This is not the same as jumping over a gap, for obvious reasons.

The puzzles is the main focus of NL.

Yeah, so I keep being told. I'm surprised the game even animates

In each of those cases the jumper is just passivly affected by the object's effect.

How is that any different from being passively affected by an exit? I would genuinely like an answer to this question as, from my perspective, a Jumper being able to enter a teleporter and not an exit is potentially confusing (it's already confusing enough that Fallers can enter teleporters and not exits). What makes the exit any different from any other interactive object in this regard?

And you are again not getting my point: I don't say it is a faller, but very close to one.

This makes no sense at all. How is a Jumper even remotely similar to a Faller? It is moving upwards and horizontally, whereas a Faller is moving downwards and vertically. And it is only the state which follows a Jumper's arc when there is no terrain or object triggers at the other end of it. Your argument has no basis, that's why I'm not "getting your point". A convincing or compelling argument might help, rather than a loose, unfounded comparison between one state and another.

At this point it seems to me that I just repeat myself over and over again. It also seems like you won't change your mind anyway no matter the arguments are and my time is limited.

Yeah, I know the feeling. It's identical to the one I'm experiencing.

The logic if jumpers belong to the class of lemmings that should exit is highly debatable.

So, debate it rather than dismiss it!

I also think that allowing the jumper in the exit is likely to detract more than it is to add, and I will use the same reasoning I used for the spearer and the grenader. Levels where you just park your cursor in [spot] and then click... like a hundred times are not fun to play

Clickbait levels are possible with any of the skills. Should we not allow Climbers to exit in case people make levels where you have to make 100 lemmings climb up into an exit?

I want to be able to look at a skill/state and determine from first principles whether or not it's likely to be able to exit, as opposed to... the only way to figure out if it can exit or not is to try it and then memorize the result.

Again - "picture puzzle" mentality. Lemmings is a video game!!!

Why is everyone so averse to trying things out and seeing what happens? And please don't use the redundant "hours of trial and error" argument - it takes seconds to try something like this out in NeoLemmix.


So far, I haven't seen one good reason not to allow Jumper-exit behaviour. It's all the same generic stuff that usually makes an appearance in these sorts of debates: "might cause backroutes", "might be difficult for new players to learn", "might cause clickbait levels", "I won't know just by looking what the rules are." Whilst these may be good, well-established arguments in general, not one of them specifically addresses whether or not it makes sense for a Jumper to be able to exit upon contact with the exit's trigger.

Conversely, all of the arguments that I have put forward are specifically topic-relevant: "Jumpers can already exit, so people might be confused by the change", "Jumpers can interact with other midair objects, so why not exits?", "it's a quick, easy action which may contribute positively towards alternative/challenge solutions", "I would expect it to happen if I was a new player to the game" and all of these have been dismissed.

So much for logic!

[IchoTolot]

Simulations of WillLems supposedly unique behaviors:

1) The quickness and simplicity of one lemming exiting almost immediately with a single click.
2) Jumping across a gap into an exit. Building across it doesn't count because that allows other lemmings to exit and/or other actions to either cancel the builder or destroy the bridge.
3) Jumping over a trap/teleporter and into an exit. This is not the same as jumping over a gap, for obvious reasons.

All exits are assumedly in jumper range. If one is not feel free to think of it moved by a few pixels it is off.

1.)

As stated above it is not really a factor, but here it goes anyway. The exit can be reached with assigning just 1 skill to a lemming: A glider.

The normal lemmings can reach the exit with the same ammount of skill as in the jumper case.

2.)

First level shows that it can be done with a glider. Level can also be adjusted for the floater case.

Second level shows simulation through climber. For this the exit is at a wall, the result stays the same though.

Third level shows simulation through swimmer. For this the exit is inside water, the result stays the same though.

The normal lemmings can reach the exit with the same ammount of skill as in the jumper case.

3.)

Level shows that it can again be simulated using a glider/floater.

The normal lemmings can reach the exit with the same ammount of skill as in the jumper case.

How is that any different from being passively affected by an exit?

You need to actively enter an exit. A trap just kills everything it gets its hands on. No action required from the lemming.

This makes no sense at all. How is a Jumper even remotely similar to a Faller? It is moving upwards and horizontally, whereas a Faller is moving downwards and vertically. And it is only the state which follows a Jumper's arc when there is no terrain or object triggers at the other end of it. Your argument has no basis, that's why I'm not "getting your point". A convincing or compelling argument might help, rather than a loose, unfounded comparison between one state and another.

Both are moving through the air and are affected by gravity, that's why the jumper has an arc.

Appart from the intial start of the the lemming has no further control over the jump and can only passively interact like a faller. --> Cannot actively exit, but can passively be killed by a trap for example.

You could say the floater and glider also fall into this category but this rather hints at the oddness of the behaivor and why it should maybe be changed as well.


We could try out an RC build without glider/floater exiting and assess the breakage! If it's low I might change my stance here towards removing those 2 as well.

[WillLem]

1) The quickness and simplicity of one lemming exiting almost immediately with a single click.

1.) The exit can be reached with assigning just 1 skill to a lemming: A glider.

Whilst simple, it does not have the same quick, instant effect as Jumping a lemming into an exit. This is 1 point to me.

2) Jumping across a gap into an exit. Building across it doesn't count because that allows other lemmings to exit and/or other actions to either cancel the builder or destroy the bridge.

2.)
First level shows that it can be done with a glider. Level can also be adjusted for the floater case.

Second level shows simulation through climber. For this the exit is at a wall, the result stays the same though.

Third level shows simulation through swimmer. For this the exit is inside water, the result stays the same though.

I will concede these. 1 point to you.

3) Jumping over a trap/teleporter and into an exit. This is not the same as jumping over a gap, for obvious reasons.

3.)
Level shows that it can again be simulated using a glider/floater.

OK, you win this round.

How is that any different from being passively affected by an exit?

You need to actively enter an exit. A trap just kills everything it gets its hands on. No action required from the lemming.

How is jumping towards an exit trigger, regardless of the effects of gravity that subsequently impact the Jumper's motion, not "actively entering" the exit?

Regarding the "no action required from the lemming" point - I assume you mean other than jumping towards the trigger in the first place?

Both are moving through the air and are affected by gravity, that's why the jumper has an arc.

Appart from the intial start of the the lemming has no further control over the jump and can only passively interact like a faller. --> Cannot actively exit, but can passively be killed by a trap for example.

You could say the floater and glider also fall into this category but this rather hints at the oddness of the behaivor and why it should maybe be changed as well.

I can see your point here, and I agree to some extent. However, I would argue that the Jumper only becomes passive at the point when gravity affects its arc. For the first part of the arc, it is active and should be able to exit.

If Floater & Glider exiting is kept, then Jumper exiting (regardless of arc position) should also be kept on the same basis. So, it now comes down to stability and whether we're happy to break existing content.

We could try out an RC build without glider/floater exiting and assess the breakage! If it's low I might change my stance here towards removing those 2 as well.

I can think of 2 levels in Lemminas, one of which is fixable and the other of which would be irreversably affected by such a change.

And hey - whilst we're at it - let's also throw the question of "should Ohners be able to exit?" into the equation if Floaters and Gliders are also being considered for removal.

No other dying state can exit - what makes Ohnoers so special? And, if you're happy to break existing content for the sake of removing Floaters/Gliders/Jumpers, then you don't get to make that case for Ohnoers. Maybe we could have an RC to see how much content is actually broken by removing this behaviour from the game. The odd nuke solution level here and there? A single level in LPIII?* We can live without that, surely!


Sarcasm aside, I am very strongly against any of the exiting behaviours being forcibly removed from NeoLemmix.

*To be clear: I'm being ironic here; I absolutely love this level

[WillLem]

Something that's just come up on Discord which is probably worth adding to the conversation, since it's topic-relevant (i.e. specifically midair exit rules as opposed to skill-specific/more general exiting rules).

In the presence of a "must have terrain underneath to be interactable-with" rule, and coupled with further restrictions on which lemming states can interact with an exit's trigger in midair, midair exits become borderline unfair design. Or, if not unfair, then simply pointless: it would be obvious that constructive skills are required to get there, and there wouldn't be any challenge solution alternatives, so why even bother doing it?

Maybe that's not such a bad thing, thinking about it. Midair exits are generally a bit blah, and they'd become even more so in the presence of a "must have terrain underneath to work at all" rule.

So, I guess it comes down to either:

a) we want midair exits, in which case the better option is to present more possibilities for interacting with them.

Or:

b) we don't want midair exits, so make it more difficult/unfair/pointless to use them in a level.

[IchoTolot]

Whilst simple, it does not have the same quick, instant effect as Jumping a lemming into an exit. This is 1 point to me.

The instant effect is not really a factor. The timing of the level can be adjusted for it anyway.

I would argue that the Jumper only becomes passive at the point when gravity affects its arc.

Gravity is always affecting the arc. Otherwise it would not be an arc. The arc exists because of gravity. That's why it is always passive and the jumper should not be able to exit.

No other dying state can exit - what makes Ohnoers so special? And, if you're happy to break existing content for the sake of removing Floaters/Gliders/Jumpers, then you don't get to make that case for Ohnoers. Maybe we could have an RC to see how much content is actually broken by removing this behaviour from the game. The odd nuke solution level here and there? A single level in LPIII? We can live without that, surely!

This seems to be written out of spite after the doctrine of "if this is taken from me this will be taken from you", but I will explain anyway:

The Ohnoer cannot exit mid-air. The Ohnoer is also still alive and even moving visible by the arm movement. And standing on solid ground EVERY lemming is able to exit. Ohnoers, Blockers, builders, stackers,... it doesn't matter. As a result the Ohnoer should exit as it would otherwise be an inconsistency.

It also seems like that you haven't played that many packs yet, as otherwise you would see that there are quiet a lot more nuke levels than you think and they are not that odd.   In contrast some of the best levels I've ever seen incorperate the nuke very creatively and unexpectedly.

I am not happy to break content, anyone who knows me here is familiar that I always try to keep the existing content in mind during physics discussions. In fact I am on the side of stabilty and prefer to keep non-bug mechanics, but the question was asked if an RC could be made to evaluate and I cannot argue for forbidding simple evaluation.

To avoid any doubt: I am still on the side of keeping the floater/glider exit rule due to stability and against allowing the jumper/reacher to exit. But I cannot dismiss the argument for an evaluation if the hassle of creating it is not deemed as to much.

So, I guess it comes down to either:

a) we want midair exits

Or:

b) we don't want midair exits

Midair exits cannot be avoided in general. You can create levels freely. Are are also created naturally by removing terrain during solving. They will always exsist even if in the vast majority of cases terrain will be built under them anyway.

Personally I would have to dig deep to see if I ever used them. I remember no, but if they would need to be build towards.

[WillLem]

Whilst simple, it does not have the same quick, instant effect as Jumping a lemming into an exit. This is 1 point to me.

The instant effect is not really a factor.

Yes it is, because a) it's important to me as a player, and b) that was a proposed part of the challenge, which you accepted, and which your level failed to meet.

Gravity is always affecting the arc. Otherwise it would not be an arc. The arc exists because of gravity. That's why it is always passive and the jumper should not be able to exit.

We may be getting somewhere here. Yes, the arc exists because of gravity - good point, well made. However, the arc also exists because the lemming performed an action. So, it's a passive state resulting from an active spark. We get to decide which element of this is more important for deciding physics rules.

I will concede that your conclusion likely makes the most sense in this case.

This seems to be written out of spite after the doctrine of "if this is taken from me this will be taken from you"

Damn f*cking right! I love my Falling Forever level, and it's in danger of being rendered obsolete! The claws are very much out!

Incidentally, the aforementioned level from LPIII is one of my favourite custom levels (and I have played more than you probably think ) - so, I personally wouldn't like to see Ohnoers exiting being removed from the game either, of course. Just wanted to make that clear

The Ohnoer cannot exit mid-air.

Fair enough, but that wasn't the question. The question was "why should it, and no other dying state, be able to exit?"

The Ohnoer is also still alive and even moving visible by the arm movement.

So is the Drowner, Burner, and arguably any of the other trap animations up until the point that the lemming is actually dead.

And standing on solid ground EVERY lemming is able to exit.

Apart from Burners and Drowners (water seems to be treated as "solid ground" in the context of an exit). So, the question remains:

What makes an Ohnoer different from the other dying states, which cannot exit?

some of the best levels I've ever seen incorperate the nuke very creatively and unexpectedly.

Hence your desire to defend the Ohnoer as an exitable state. How is that any different from me enjoying the fact that Floaters and Jumpers can exit?

I am not happy to break content... but the question was asked if an RC could be made to evaluate and I cannot argue for forbidding simple evaluation.

Fair enough. And, I agree that the argument should of course be tested to its limits before any decision is made.

Midair exits cannot be avoided in general. You can create levels freely. Are are also created naturally by removing terrain during solving. They will always exsist even if in the vast majority of cases terrain will be built under them anyway.

Fair point, and this does make it a somewhat unusual case in that it can happen unintentionally in any level which provides downwardly destructive skills. However, it doesn't necessarily refute the point that creating levels with midair exits will become as maligned/redundant/pointless/whatever as, say, creating levels with hidden exits. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, it's just something to keep in mind when making these sorts of decisions.

Personally I would have to dig deep to see if I ever used them. I remember no, but if they would need to be build towards.

I'd provide a bunch of Floaters and Jumpers, personally. Much more fun than Building

[IchoTolot]

So is the Drowner, Burner, and arguably any of the other trap animations up until the point that the lemming is actually dead.

What makes an Ohnoer different from the other dying states, which cannot exit?

For me a burner is already dead. It's just a fancy death animation like the trap activation animations.

The drowner I would say is also dead with another fancy animation, the fact that we can still assign a swimmer and save him I would count towards user friendlieness so that we get a few extra frames of assignment. Also it makes sense that when he suddenly gets the ability to swim he would save himself. Without that ability he is already dead.

The Ohnoer I would not count as already dead --->  What happens if you assign a bomber to a blocker? That's right the resulting Ohnoer continues blocking until AFTER he exploded! He is still alive as a result.
Another argument would be: The exit clausel could can be compared to the drowner case. The drowner gets saved by the swimmer, the Ohnoer with the exit.

[WillLem]

For me a burner is already dead. It's just a fancy death animation like the trap activation animations.

By this logic, surely the Ohnoer is also effectively dead, and simply performing an animation before the inevitable explosion - it's not reversible in any way.

The drowner I would say is also dead, the fact that we can still assign a swimmer and save him I would count towards user friendlieness so that we get a few extra frames of assignment. Also it makes sense that when he suddenly gets the ability to swim he would save himself. Without that ability he is already dead.

If anything, this gives weight to the possible argument that Drowners, like Ohnoers, should also be able to exit. Yes, they're in water, but they're still alive and - in fact - able to transition to Swimmers! This makes it arguably a slightly less "dead" state than the Ohnoer.

The Ohnoer I would not count as already dead --->  What happens if you assign a bomber to a blocker? That's right the resulting Ohnoer continues blocking until AFTER he exploded! He is still alive as a result.
Another argument would be: The exit clausel could can be compared to the drowner case. The drowner gets saved by the swimmer, the Ohnoer with the exit.

Eeesh. So much for keeping things simple...


EDIT: With all this said, I can think of a way in which the Ohnoer is different from all other dying states:

It is able to drop, and thus change position - all other dying states are fixed (the Drowner moves slightly side to side, but this is not as significant as the range of vertical movement that an Ohnoer has).

Is this a good enough case for its exitability? Sure, why not

[IchoTolot]

After reflecting the options a bit I think I have a possible alternative suggestion on how to handle things which could be a compromise for all parties:

- To exit all lemmings should requite solid terrain underneath their feet. This addresses the simplicity concerns of Proxima and Dullstar.
- We discuss and flesh out the vortex object type WillLem proposed (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5504.0) so that it is clear and fair. This leaves the possibility of mid air exit open towards every type of lemming. May it be jumpers, fallers,etc. In fact it will just suck up and allow every lemming to exit regardless of the state. We will probably require a few visual variations of the final object to fit the tones of different types of terrain.  This addresses the concerns of WillLem, mantha and others who prefer exiting jumpers or even fallers.
- An RC version will be needed with the new standard exit exiter rule (and the new object type) to assess breakage. Yes at first levels will still break, but the fix should be very simple and should even be possible to prepare in the final RC version.
- The list of broken levels that 100% need mid air exiters can then easily be fixed by using the new object type. Action will still be needed from the creator side, but it's an easy fix which still leaves the level intact afterwards. This case should supposedly be rare depending on the result of the RC candidate.

So how does this alternative proposal sounds like?

[namida]

- To exit all lemmings should requite solid terrain underneath their feet. This addresses the simplicity concerns of Proxima and Dullstar.

To be clear, are you including "swimmer should not be able to exit" here?

I really do feel that Swimmer needs to be treated as a special case here, because water becomes a pseudo-terrain for a swimmer. In this case, I have no levels myself that rely on this behavior, so it's not a "preserve my own content" thing either.

[IchoTolot]

To be clear, are you including "swimmer should not be able to exit" here?

My initial instinct would tend to not let them exit and let the vortex do the job as well. I see the point of the water being pseudo-terrain though!

But let's say the swimmer corner case could be discussed. I would not stand in the way of either possibility.

[mantha16]

not trying to be argumentative but im not sure how lemmings have to be on solid ground to exit is a compromise

[IchoTolot]

not trying to be argumentative but im not sure how lemmings have to be on solid ground to exit is a compromise

As the other cases will be covered with the new object type WillLem suggested:

- We discuss and flesh out the vortex object type WillLem proposed (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5504.0) so that it is clear and fair. This leaves the possibility of mid air exit open towards every type of lemming. May it be jumpers, fallers,etc. In fact it will just suck up and allow every lemming to exit regardless of the state. We will probably require a few visual variations of the final object to fit the tones of different types of terrain.  This addresses the concerns of WillLem, mantha and others who prefer exiting jumpers or even fallers.

The standard exit will be solid ground only, but the new exit type will be an everything goes exit.

[mantha16]

yeah except you did post this before willem suggested the vortex but yes that is a compromise