Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]  (Read 36097 times)

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Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2020, 02:39:03 AM »
I attached my replays for the first rank! Very fun pack so far

Level feedback
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2020, 09:17:22 AM »
Continuing on...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overall, I definitely would not call this pack "medium" difficulty-wise. Even these first-rank levels are very hard.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »
Thanks a lot for all your enthusiasm, folks! :thumbsup: The first version was downloaded by a whopping 48 people. This far exceeds any hopes and expectations I had for this pack!

Now that count has been reset to 0, because I've uploaded the first minor update, with just two small fixes / changes based on Gronkling's solutions.

Changelog (click to show/hide)



It's fascinating to see how much the individual perception of difficulty differs.
There seems to be some consensus that Soft 07 is quite hard, and a lot of people don't enjoy Soft 08 (if it comforts you, I tried to enforce that trick on several levels, and this one seems to be the only one where you actually have to do it - but the level doesn't really consist of anything else aside from the main trick, so it's over quickly :P ).

However, as early as Soft 05, some people already find that challenging, others way too easy. Even about the first two levels you can already argue which one is harder; that seems to depend entirely on how much practice a given player has with the classic skills vs. the NeoLemmix skills, including what tricks you can do by combining them in various ways.

Especially Soft 12 - Soft 14 though seem to vary drastically in how difficult people perceive them to be:

Soft 12: Hard for Gronkling, easy for namida, and ericderkovits even seems to be stuck on this
Soft 13: Hard for namida, easy for nin10doadict (back during early testing)
Soft 14: Seems to have been easier for Gronkling than for namida, although their solutions were pretty similar
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2020, 01:08:35 PM »
Ok I solved the Soft rank (had to resolve Soft 23 with new update as my replay broke). Also I redid my soft 4 replay to get the Talisman(using only 3 miners)

Also I got all 3 Talisman's in this rank.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

Anyways here are my Soft rank replays.


Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank. If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 01:36:47 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2020, 01:55:04 PM »
Very nice pack Strato Incendus. I just solved soft levels 1 to 7 (with talismans). Replays as attachment. :P

So far, no level has really been a problem for me, but I had to think for a long time for soft 2. ;)

For soft 6, I didn't understand what the shimmier should be used for. I didn't need to use it, anyway, to solve the puzzle ! ???

I really liked soft 7, not easy either !

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2020, 02:22:15 PM »
Thanks a lot, David! Here are my responses to your replays.

Soft 01-07 (click to show/hide)

I'll respond to ericderkovits's new replays in a second comment later. ;) I just want to say two things already, and those are obviously...

Quote from: ericderkovits
Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank.

Thanks a lot for recommending this pack for an LP! :thumbsup:

Quote from: ericderkovits
If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.

...or you might just be getting better already ;) , now that you spend more time playing yourself instead of watching other people's replays. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2020, 06:00:38 PM »
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2020, 06:17:11 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how many people are actually playing through this pack and the huge amount of replays coming in already, considering that it has only been a few days since the pack's release. I'm not sure if the same can be said of other packs that have been released in the past. My congrats to both Gronkling and eric for finishing the Soft rank :thumbsup: I'm not surprised about Gronkling, even though I haven't gotten to know him until now, as I just started posting earlier this year even though I've been a registered member since 2017 but in the few years after I have been visiting the site daily and only been silently reading the posts in the background. I have only played his Gronkling6 and Gronkling7 packs for Lemmini, the two packs that make extensive use of Lemmini glitches. While I was able to beat all of the latter, 2 levels remain unsolved for me in the former, one of which is a level that is in the Bonus rank of RotL for Lemmini, the Mystery Machine. Still unbeaten by me after almost 3 years! I have read through the Lemmini glitch topic so many times, and I'm still not sure which one needs to be used to solve it, let alone if it's actually listed. It's very easy to just save 1 lemming, but you need to save both, which I haven't been successful in doing yet. The other unsolved level is Bring it Together, although I haven't spent too much time on it. I might be able to get it given enough time, but that remains to be seen.

On the other hand, it surprises me that eric got through the entire Soft rank. It's even more amazing if he managed to get through it without seeing anyone's replays for a slight hint, which sounds like he was able to do so, albeit with a lot of struggling. To add to Strato, it's definitely nice to finally see him actually playing through packs, as I have said over and over that this is how one gets better at level solving. It also amuses me how he started with difficult packs, eg, Artlems and LOA, rather than the other way around of starting with easier packs. Claims of not being a good solver serve only to lead one to doubt him/herself, as you never know unless you try. It's also one that I refuse to believe, as I'm sure he's better at solving than he claims to be. In the same way that I'm certain I wouldn't be good at level designing, but the thing is I won't know that I truly am good or bad at it unless I try. I have recently played around with the editor for very Old Formats, as well as Datpacker and FlexiTool and was able to figure some stuff out on my own for my very first time using them. Perhaps this will make it easier for me to learn how to use the New Formats editor. That is, when I eventually start using and playing around with it :laugh: As with anything, the best way to learn is to simply imitate the files when making a pack, so that is where I would start myself.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

If you haven't noticed, Strato is a huge fan of creating small landscapes with restrictive skillsets. Even then, don't be fooled, as if done well they can be deceptively difficult levels. As I have pointed out before, these levels give the impression and take on the appearance of being a seemingly easy level, but in actuality is a hard level. The same can be said about very large levels. They often give the impression of appearing to be a difficult level, but in actuality aren't too hard. If anything, I think psychologically they are designed to intimidate more than anything, just from the sheer huge size of the level.

LOA is supposed to be harder on average than the other packs Strato has ever released. If you came into LOA expecting an easy first rank, then you were far off. We did warn that the first rank isn't easy at all. Since that was especially true with you, expect the remaining 3 ranks to be even more so. Sure, I found a lot of levels in LOA that others thought were hard easy, and so I tend to be surprised when reading that from other players, but when I take a step back and realize that we're talking about the average and less experienced players, it makes complete sense that these people would find them hard. Even then, I'm in complete agreement with some of the feedback on some levels that highly experienced people like namida and Gronkling found hard, as I also experienced somewhat of a similar struggle on such levels.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2020, 06:50:49 PM »
I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2020, 08:37:52 PM »
ok, It seems loud is starting off hard. I got level 1 solved but I'm struggling with getting the Talisman.

And yes level 2 is real hard.

I figured since Gronkling said level 2 was very hard in the rank I will give my 2 first loud rank replays (level 1 without the Talisman)

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2020, 09:04:43 PM »
Yes, I agree with the both of you that Loud 2 is a hard one. I also struggled with it for about a good 10 minutes or so. If I'm not mistaken, this level was originally a late Soft rank level and ended up swapping places with the original Loud 2 level.

I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

Thanks for letting me know, Gronkling! :thumbsup: In particular, I appreciate not giving any of the solution anyway. The only other question I have is is it a very precise assignment? I have tried everything and I can't seem to get any glitch to work other than the stuck climber glitch.

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.

Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2020, 09:33:42 PM »
Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out. I also saved skills on more levels here than last time. Still a really fun pack! :8:()[:

Full comments
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ;P) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2020, 09:46:01 PM »
Congrats on completing the Loud rank, Gronkling! :thumbsup:

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Quote
Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ;P) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

Ok, thanks. I'll see if I can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out then.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2020, 10:30:15 PM »
Quote
Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!

Indeed; that's precisely what I'm doing while playing SEB Lems at the moment. ;) And I did it back in the day with Lemmings Migration as well. I think it's fair to say that the Murder rank of SEB Lems is now to me what Lemmings Migration was back then: I usually can figure out 95% of the solution, but then I always find myself one skill short. And the frustrating part is, it's not like I solve some levels completely and others not at all, it's 95% for the vast majority of levels. :evil: That's how you know you've reached your current skill threshold.

Regarding Gronkling's replays, I'll take one thing out of the spoiler and just disguise which level it refers to:

Quote from: Gronkling
that trap is nastily hidden, I should give it an idle animation

Well, that's one of many reasons why it's a good thing to not only have you back on the forums again, but also as a player of this pack now ;)

Because I have indeed been calling for secondary animations to be added to those traps (link). I think I even made suggestions in that thread what they could look like.



My responses to Gronkling's Loud replays are coming later in a separate comment! ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2020, 11:53:35 PM »

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Seems like this is a regular thing with my packs, then, because many also reported the Professional rank of Lemmings World Tour to be easier than the first two ranks. :D

I assume this is because, once I start making the intended solutions more complex, I also start adding in more degrees of freedom. Which in the worst case leads to more backroutes, in the best case at least leads to more alternative solutions (i.e. where most or all of the skills are used, but not necessarily in the intended way).

This will become apparent in my responses to your Loud replays in a minute.

Responses to ericderkovits (click to show/hide)


I've already implemented most of the fixes in my level files and I will upload another update tomorrow.

However, for Loud 09 and 29, the decision of whether I will make changes to enforce the intended solution more compared to the alternative ones is still pending.
Thus, I'm making this partly dependent on Gronkling's feedback to the questions I asked about those two levels. ;)


During testing, I was somewhat lenient with these two levels and allowed the alternative solutions, because I liked those, too.
But the more people are playing now, if there are levels where I never actually see the intended solution at all, I'm inclined to make those levels a little more strict.

And I think it's early enough since the first release of the pack that such comparatively major changes to individual levels would still be somewhat fair. ;)
I generally try to avoid moving levels around between or within ranks after release, because it messes up everyone else's replay files (since usually, only the level creator has them sorted by level name, because that's what the editor does).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels