NeoLemmix V12.10.0-RC Released [Stable released]

[namida]

V12.10.0 stable has now been released.


The Release Candidate build for V12.10.0 is now here.

Known issues (click to show/hide)

Issues that are struck-out here are fixed in source code, but the fix is not yet included in the latest RC release.

- Possible crash bug needs investigating.
- Records graphic needs to be replaced with the one from reply #76.
- Default window size needs another check.

Download (V12.10.0-RC5, editor not included): https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?id=450

For convenience, download link for editor V1.29: https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?id=451
This is not a special experimental / RC editor, just the current stable version.

This download only includes the Orig and OhNo styles, plus "default", "xmas" and "special". You can use the in-game Style Manager (in the Settings) to download other styles, or you can download styles manually:
- All styles: https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?id=448 (Updated 29th Oct 2020)
- Any individual style: https://www.neolemmix.com/styles/12.8/XXXXXXXX.zip (replace XXXXXXXX with the style's name, eg: https://www.neolemmix.com/styles/12.8/orig_fire.zip for orig_fire)
That link is NOT a mistake, "12.8" in the link is correct. Said link is based on "minimum version the styles are compatible with", not "current version".

As always, it is recommended you install the RC build to a new folder, rather than trying to use it in the same folder as your existing version of NeoLemmix. You can copy across your hotkeys file (from the Settings folder) after running the RC build for the first time.

"What is a Release Candidate build in the context of NeoLemmix?" (click to show/hide)

A release candidate build could be thought of as a pre-release version of an upcoming release. The idea is that except for bugfixes, or issues that were specifically noted as "should be tested during the RC phase before deciding", there won't be changes between it and the stable version, and thus it can be used to start updating content, as well as for ironing out last-minute bugs. Content specifically targetting it should not be released, though styles targetting it can be submitted for the next styles download.

Overall changelog (V12.9.4 -> V12.10.0-RC5) (click to show/hide)

########################
# MENU RELATED CHANGES #
########################

- All menu screens use a 864x486 internal resolution, increased from 640x400.
- All menu screens now have proper mouse support, and have design adjustments to fit.
- Backgrounds can be specific to certain types of menu screens, by adding a suffix to the filename: "background_title.png", "background_preview.png", ... "postview", "pretext", "posttext", "replay_check".
- "Advanced Options" submenu added to the Level Select menu. This can be disabled in Options. Some previously-"secret" options are now located here.
- Level stats and detailed talisman info now viewable in level select menu.
- Many menu graphics replaced. Even those that weren't may have slight adjustments.
- NeoLemmix credits added to scroller texts. These will show after the pack's custom texts.
- Preview screen shows neutral and zombie counts.
- Preview screen shows quantity and status of talismans instead of detailed info on a single talisman. Info on a talisman can be displayed by clicking its icon.
- Records viewable in level select menu.
- Scroller on title screen can now be controlled by clicking the lemmings at either end.
- Scroller on title screen widened and animation adjusted slightly.
- "sign_code.png" is now "sign_level_select.png". Backwards compatibility for the old name is retained for now.
- "sign_rank.png" has been renamed into "sign_group.png", with parts further split into seperate "sign_group_up.png" and "sign_group_down.png" files. No backwards compatibility.
- Talisman lists for packs visible in level select menu when a group (pack or rank) is selected.
- Talisman menu removed. Above list in level select is its replacement.
- When a group's sign graphic is missing, an auto-generated one using the group name is used instead of a "Step X" or "Rank graphic not found" placeholder.

#################
# OTHER CHANGES #
#################

- Added support for specifying fallback musics in a rotation entry or a level's specified music.
- Added support for random selection of music in a rotation entry (or an overall rotation) or a level's specified music.
- Added a Hide Skill Shadows option. This can also be toggled via a hotkey.
- Additional records are tracked: Fewest total skills, and fewest of each individual skill.
- Clear physics mode displays a lock icon over the silhouette of locked exits.
- Dedicated "Version" field in pack data.
- Improved the "has this level been modified since it was completed" check, so it should now result in fewer false positives.
- Ohnoers now display as "Bombers", to be consistent with Stoners (who show as "Stoners" during their ohno phase).
- Support for deprecated-format files (except levels) has been dropped.
- Viewing the postview screen is no longer required in order for gameplay records (including completion status) to be saved.

#############
# BUG FIXES #
#############

- Fixed failure of mass replay check to update save / time / etc records.
- Fixed intermittent non-centering of text vertically on pretext / posttext screens.
- Fixed projection shadow not working when selected lemming is a Jumper.
- Fixed skill panel positioning issue when window is resized during gameplay.
- Fixed some rendering issues with Clear Physics Mode.

Changelog V12.9.4 -> RC1 (click to show/hide)

########################
# MENU RELATED CHANGES #
########################

- All menu screens use a 864x486 internal resolution, increased from 640x400.
- All menu screens now have proper mouse support, and have design adjustments to fit.
- Backgrounds can be specific to certain types of menu screens, by adding a suffix to the filename: "background_title.png", "background_preview.png", ... "postview", "pretext", "posttext", "replay_check".
- "Creator's Tools" submenu added to the Level Select menu. This must be enabled first in Options. Some previously-hidden options are now located here.
- Level stats and detailed talisman info now viewable in level select menu.
- Many menu graphics replaced. Even those that weren't may have slight adjustments.
- NeoLemmix credits added to scroller texts. These will show after the pack's custom texts.
- Preview screen shows neutral and zombie counts.
- Preview screen shows quantity and status of talismans instead of detailed info on a single talisman. Info on a talisman can be displayed by clicking its icon.
- Records viewable in level select menu.
- Scroller on title screen can now be controlled by clicking the lemmings at either end.
- Scroller on title screen widened and animation adjusted slightly.
- "sign_code.png" is now "sign_level_select.png". Backwards compatibility for the old name is retained for now.
- "sign_rank.png" has been renamed into "sign_group.png", with parts further split into seperate "sign_group_up.png" and "sign_group_down.png" files. No backwards compatibility.
- Talisman lists for packs visible in level select menu when a group (pack or rank) is selected.
- Talisman menu removed. Above list in level select is its replacement.
- When a group's sign graphic is missing, an auto-generated one using the group name is used instead of a "Step X" or "Rank graphic not found" placeholder.

#################
# OTHER CHANGES #
#################

- Added support for specifying fallback musics in a rotation entry or a level's specified music.
- Added support for random selection of music in a rotation entry (or an overall rotation) or a level's specified music.
- Added a Hide Skill Shadows option. This can also be toggled via a hotkey.
- Additional records are tracked: Fewest total skills, and fewest of each individual skill.
- Clear physics mode displays a lock icon over the silhouette of locked exits.
- Dedicated "Version" field in pack data.
- Most deprecated features / keywords have been culled altogether. (This does not extend to deprecated pieces / objects in styles.)
- Ohnoers now display as "Bombers", to be consistent with Stoners (who show as "Stoners" during their ohno phase).
- Support for all level formats other than NXLV has been dropped. Deprecated aspects of NXLV format, except for simple autosteel, remain supported for now.

#############
# BUG FIXES #
#############

- Fixed intermittent non-centering of text vertically on pretext / posttext screens.
- Fixed skill panel positioning issue when window is resized during gameplay.
- Fixed some rendering issues with Clear Physics Mode.

Changelog RC1 -> RC2 (click to show/hide)

> Added a user-friendly warning when a level's styles are in outdated format
> Creator's Tools renamed to Advanced Options, and visible by default (but can still be hidden via an option)
> Cursor changes between low-res / hi-res immediately upon exiting config menu, on title and postview screens
> Fixed bug: Sizing algorithm for hi-res cursor did not properly account for hi-res cursor's larger size
> Fixed a few bugs that lead to crashes - please recheck any content that previously crashed

Changelog RC2 -> RC3 (click to show/hide)

> Lemmings Redux included
> Replaced the menu background graphic
> Rewrote the code that generates talisman text descriptions, fixing several bugs in the process
> Talisman popup on preview screen now contains text description as well as graphical description of requirements
> Fixed a minor graphical issue on the level select menu for talismans with no title
> Slight positioning adjustments on level preview screen
> Added a missing style to the styles.ini file (dex_halloween)

Changelog RC3 -> RC4 (click to show/hide)

> Modified scroller lemmings graphic
> Records will now update whenever you reach a level's save requirement (unless viewing someone else's replay), even if you don't exit to the postview screen
> Fixed a bug with talisman ordering in the level select menu
> Fixed a bug where "without any skills" would be appended to the text of a talisman requirement, if the level has no skills
> Fixed a bug where Projection Shadow doesn't work for a lemming that's currently a jumper
> Fixed a bug where skill usage counts for the purpose of records are counted at the time of exiting to postview screen, not at the time of saving the last required lemming
> Fixed a bug where records are not updated during a mass replay check
> Fixed a visual bug with the clickable "Return to menu" text on the mass replay check screen

Changelog RC4 -> RC5 (click to show/hide)

> Added a small "dead zone" around clickable elements, where click-in-empty-space behavior will not occur.
> Improved "has this level been modified since completion?" check, which should result in less false positives.
> Level select icons adjusted: Padlock made slightly taller for locked release rate; Crystal exit used for save requirement; background color not hardcoded so should respect alternate Windows themes; talisman / records icons clearly clickable.
> Postview screen has more spacing.
> Reimplemented the "go to preview screen" behaviour when left-clicking on the title screen, if the click is in empty space.
> Talismans in the pack / rank talisman list are now clickable, and will take you to the respective level when clicked.
> Fixed several bugs relating to the display of records, both on the postview screen and in the level select menu.

What do I need to do with my existing content? (click to show/hide)

Firstly, any content other than level files - if you didn't already bring it up to date with the V12.7 format changes, you must do so for it to work with this version.

Levels will work as is (aside from those using Simple Autosteel), but you should run them through Cleanse Levels anyway if you haven't done so since V12.7.

Replays should be loaded and re-saved, or run through the replay refresher BUT - do NOT run any replays through the refresher if they're from 12.9 or newer (as it may break replays involving the Jumper skill).

Styles "should" be fine, as I upgraded all of them myself alongside the 12.7 release. But the "should" comes from that some people have then used pre-12.7 versions of these styles (despite my repeated stressing that there have been changes) and not run the results through the update tool, meaning there are styles out there that will not work as-is. IchoTolot has generously fixed all known styles with this issue, so please try redownloading them if you're having issues.

Other content shouldn't be affected by this.

Now that changes that should've been dealt with a long time ago anyway are out of the way, here's what's specific to this new version.

If your content does not use any kind of custom menu graphics, you should not need to do anything. Run a mass replay check just in case. Note that mass replay check is no longer accessed via pressing F7 - instead, look in the Level Select menu.

For content that uses custom menu graphics,
- Custom logo: Will work as-is, but note that the size limit for this is hugely increased - 848x128, up from 632x92. If you want to make a bigger one, you can now do so.
- Custom "Talisman" menu sign: Delete it. This graphic is no longer used.
- Custom rank sign: This needs to be remade as three seperate graphics (sign, up button, down button), see the default graphics in "gfx/menu" for an example. This one has no backwards compatibility, for technical reasons.
- Custom "Level Select" menu sign: Rename the file to "sign_level_select.png". For now, the old filename works but is considered deprecated.
- Custom rank graphics: Check that they look alright. Fix if needed, but they'll likely be fine as-is. Rename to "group_graphic.png", again, old filename works but is deprecated.
- Custom menu signs in general: Although existing graphics will work (except for the rank sign), you may want to design new ones that are closer to the new default menu's sizing.
- Custom font: The font is now increased in height by 3px. Existing custom fonts will work but may look weird.
- Custom scroller graphics: This graphic is now increased in height by 3px. Existing custom graphics will work but may look weird.

Please report any bugs you find! In particular, report any broken replays that worked on 12.9.X - there should be NO physics changes whatsoever.

[namida]

(Reserved)

[IchoTolot]

Downloaded it, looked around and here are the things I noticed:

1.) The standard brown background in the menu looks totally weird now. I think it gets zoomed in now or is strached to match the new resolution and it does not look good. I would not zoom in on it or stretch it and rather just extend it at the edges (make it loop) as now it just looks totally of. This would be my biggest concern right now as it's the standard background and it should not look weird.

2.) After we came to a conclusion about the ammount the level title needs to be moved down a bit as Proxima suggested.

3.) Important info for all custom graphic packs: United's old menu graphics might look even better than before. Sure, I need to fix the rank sign with the arrows, but as my own signs do not have lemmings holding them their current smaller size compared to the new standard results in roughly the same sign size. As a result, if your old custom rank graphics lack lemmings holding them and they were all pure sign they should roughly have the same sign size as the new ones just without the lemmings.

4.) I would put the symbols for Lemmings, Save Requirement and RR in the level select menu all in one row, or at least put Lemmings and Save Requirement in the same row.



Another big thing I would change:

"Creator's Tools" submenu added to the Level Select menu.

- First this should be on by default. Even if you are not a creator a mass replay check can be very crucial! Not only creators would want to save a level image, or check their replays! So this should be visible for everyone from the getgo!

- As a result the name "Creator's Tools" is not fitting. "Advanced level tools", "Advanced level options" something in that direction.

- The F7 hotkey should work again! Yes, it's hidden. Yes, you need to know it. But for those who know it's much more conveniant than going into level select first.



And at last a content problem where the bug should not lie on the content's side as it runs without problems on the stable version:

Open any level using objects from "dex_davinci" or "dex_halloween" ("dex_chalk" works for some reason) and you'll see the objects are being marked as missing and the level won't load. Even after copying the style from the stable version into the RC it won't work. Again, the content works flawless in the stable version.
I also copied the current exp editor into the same folder as the RC and the editor loads the levels correctly without errors! So the player has to screw up somewhere.....

The style manager marks the version as outdated (red).

Sidenote: The style.ini still has not sorted in "dex_halloween"  at the right position to the other 2 tilesets by the same author as well.

[namida]

1.) The standard brown background in the menu looks totally weird now. I think it gets zoomed in now or is strached to match the new resolution and it does not look good. I would not zoom in on it or stretch it and rather just extend it at the edges (make it loop) as now it just looks totally of. This would be my biggest concern right now as it's the standard background and it should not look weird.

The old background was the DOS one but blurred (with some editing to make sure it tiles nicely rather than the blur creating defined edges). The new one is the DOS background run through the NL high-res pixel art upscaler. Most feedback about the change so far has been positive, and even more so there seemed to be agreement the old one was iffy, but if that changes I'm happy to revert / consider something else.

2.) After we came to a conclusion about the ammount the level title needs to be moved down a bit as Proxima suggested.

In the level select menu or on the preview screen?

4.) I would put the symbols for Lemmings, Save Requirement and RR in the level select menu all in one row, or at least put Lemmings and Save Requirement in the same row.

Where would you move the info for neutrals and zombies in this case? Or would you move those onto the same row as lemmings only when there are no neutrals / zombies?

(Creator's tools, esp. mass replay check, feedback)

Good points here. Yes, I'll enable it by default and reconsider the name. Perhaps even reword it to "hide advanced options" rather than "show" + on by default.

Open any level using objects from "dex_davinci" or "dex_halloween" ("dex_chalk" works for some reason)

Will investigate. Can you link me to some levels using these styles?

[IchoTolot]

The old background was the DOS one but blurred (with some editing to make sure it tiles nicely rather than the blur creating defined edges). The new one is the DOS background run through the NL high-res pixel art upscaler. Most feedback about the change so far has been positive, and even more so there seemed to be agreement the old one was iffy, but if that changes I'm happy to revert / consider something else.

For me the new background looks incredibly pixelated in fullscreen mode. It just looks ugly. I am not against any changes to the bg as long as they look good, this one does not and I would prefer a blur effect to pixelated edges.

On a closer look I see another thing why it looks way worse now without the blur: The loop transitions where the graphic gets repeated are really visible. It does not look like a consistent background anymore as you can really see the transitions.
Examples:
- Go into the preview screen and look at roughly the height where the rank is displayed. Look at that horizontal line.
- Roughly above the player version is another horizontal line.
- Roughly under the right foot of the lem holding the option sign is a vertical line.
....
I can go on here.

Quite a few people play in window mode on a smaller screen, I have a big widescreen monitor and play fullscreen. Maybe that is a part of why it looks so much worse for me.

In the level select menu or on the preview screen?

Preview screen.

Where would you move the info for neutrals and zombies in this case? Or would you move those onto the same row as lemmings only when there are no neutrals / zombies?

Yeah, those are problematic. It just seems weird to me that the lemming ammount and the save requirment are not in the same row as they kind of belong together. I am not sure what the best solution is here.

Will investigate. Can you link me to some levels using these styles?

Some Examples:

dex_davinci
Bonus 33 of United,  Advanced Training 3 of the new intro pack, Renaissance Lemmings : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4238.0

dex_halloween
All Hallow's Eve pack: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4448.0

Perhaps even reword it to "hide advanced options" rather than "show" + on by default.

Sounds good.

[namida]

It's come to my attention that there are styles out there that have not heeded prior advice at the time of the 12.7 upgrade. It was mentioned that 12.10 would be where backwards-compatibility for the keywords deprecated in 12.7 would end (though I did later decide to maintain backwards compatibility for level files), and this has not changed.

I've added this to the original post. If you have a style (or a replay) that doesn't work in 12.10, but works in 12.9, there is a 99% chance this is why.

Firstly, any content other than level files - if you didn't already bring it up to date with the V12.7 format changes, you must do so for it to work with this version.

Levels will work as is (aside from those using Simple Autosteel), but you should run them through Cleanse Levels anyway if you haven't done so since V12.7.

Replays should be loaded and re-saved, or run through the replay refresher BUT - do NOT run any replays through the refresher if they're from 12.9 or newer (as it may break replays involving the Jumper skill).

Styles "should" be fine, as I upgraded all of them myself alongside the 12.7 release. But the "should" comes from that some people have then used pre-12.7 versions of these styles (despite my repeated stressing that there have been changes) and not run the results through the update tool, meaning there are styles out there that will not work as-is. This is up to style authors to fix, as I have already fixed this once. The 12.7 style update tool may be able to help, but it goes without saying to carefully check that the results are as desired.

Other content shouldn't be affected by this.

EDIT: I have made sure NL displays a user-friendly error message explaining this issue instead of a generic error.

[IchoTolot]

A quick update for both of the styles. They work now, but this is still just for testing with the new version. Treat them with a warning!

In discord we discussed that it would be better to first detect any styles that still have this outdated format, then fix them up with the updater. At last, inform the creator+people and deliver the fix with the standard library.

[zanzindorf]

A minor bug I found: The cursor seems to change sizes depending on if you have "High Resolution" active. If you turn on "High Resolution" then navigate to the level preview menu, then navigate back to the main menu, your cursor will be super chonky (See 1st attachment).

Regarding the background: If we're looking for alternatives, I could try to throw something together. Here's a quick draft I did: (see 2nd and 3rd attachments).

[IchoTolot]

Just inserted zanzindorf's background and:

a) It looks even better than the old one
b) makes the text more readable
c) has a modernized feel to it while keeping the spirit of the old theme
d) I can see no ugly transitions

You got my vote!

[namida]

Yep, definitely willing to include that background (or a final version thereof)!

I almost wonder though if the font / scroller are going to stick out now. Although counter-argument: Many pack's custom graphics still will stick out anyway. And in the case of the font, it sticking out is not necesserially a bad thing.

Regarding the cursor: There's no bug here, it's just that the high-res cursor can only be set to sizes that match even multiples of the low-res cursor size. So if you're on a screen / window size that would usually use a 1x or 3x or 5x etc zoom for the low-res cursor, it would have to go to (the equivalent of) a neighbouring number for the high-res one. Whether it goes up or down can be changed, but the only workaround for the issue as a whole would be, possibly, to artificially limit the low-res cursor to even multiples too. Since (I believe) most people still use low-res mode, it doens't make sense to make that awkward just for the sake of high-res mode if it isn't critical to things working correctly.

EDIT: On further investigation, I have found a bug here that would only kick in at larger screen / window sizes. Fixed for next update.

This aside, I've also made a change in that the menu and postview screens now reload the cursor right away when switching low-res / hi-res mode. The preview screen already reloads altogether when this is changed (as that's much tidier than trying to hot-swap the level to high res), so no change needed there.

[namida]

Where would you move the info for neutrals and zombies in this case? Or would you move those onto the same row as lemmings only when there are no neutrals / zombies?

Yeah, those are problematic. It just seems weird to me that the lemming ammount and the save requirment are not in the same row as they kind of belong together. I am not sure what the best solution is here.

One possibility could be to put the save requirement first. There is enough room to have four elements horizontally on each line. Thus, first element is always save requirement, second is always lemming count. Third is neutral or zombie count; and if both are needed, zombie takes the 4th slot. The downside here is that release rate is now the only thing on the second row, if viewing a level that has no time limit + either not viewing a talisman or viewing one without a max total skills cap. This itself might feel a bit weird.

Alternatively, first row is used for the always-present stuff - normal lemming count, save requirement, release rate. Second row is used for the optional stuff, and is completely blank when none of the optionals apply. Up for discussion whether positions are fixed or on a "fill from the left" basis (similar to how the skill panel, both in the preview here and in-game, works). Not sure if the huge gap might be awkward though.

Perhaps even reword it to "hide advanced options" rather than "show" + on by default.

Sounds good.

Done. The option is now "Hide Advanced Options in Level Select", and is off by default (so, the advanced options will be shown by default).

In the level select menu or on the preview screen?

Preview screen.

(Context: Moving the level title down a bit.)

For starters, here's a screenshot with every possible line used on the preview screen. What adjustments would you suggest from here?

[Dullstar]

In regards to the background currently present in the RC: when running the RC for the first time, that's the first time I saw the upscaled menu background, and I have to agree, it doesn't look very well. This is a consequence of the upscaler and not the switch to the DOS background, as I modded my installation of the stable version to use the non-upscaled version of it and it looks fine there.

I'm not a huge fan of the changes to the text size or the upscaled background, but the old unscaled versions work fine - the only real flaw is that this results in the text being drawn slightly off-center in the rank graphic, but that could probably be fixed by padding the dimensions with whitespace; I just can't be bothered to do that right now.

If we want to use an upscaled background, a new one such as the one proposed by Zanzidorf is definitely the way to do it as opposed to running a low-res one through an upscaler. Sometimes stuff looks okay when you upscale it, but a lot of the time it really doesn't. I think we could also do better on the text coloration for the buttons, but it would require something more sophisticated than simply hue shifting (again, sometimes it works well, but sometimes it doesn't).

[namida]

Uploaded an RC2 update. Changes:

> Added a user-friendly warning when a level's styles are in outdated format
> Creator's Tools renamed to Advanced Options, and visible by default (but can still be hidden via an option)
> Cursor changes between low-res / hi-res immediately upon exiting config menu, on title and postview screens
> Fixed bug: Sizing algorithm for hi-res cursor did not properly account for hi-res cursor's larger size
> Fixed a few bugs that lead to crashes - please recheck any content that previously crashed

To upgrade from V12.10.0-RC1, replace your EXE with the attached one.

[Proxima]

(Context: Moving the level title down a bit.)

For starters, here's a screenshot with every possible line used on the preview screen. What adjustments would you suggest from here?

I'll field this one as I think Icho and I are pretty much on the same page here. The issue is that, although the talisman icons are a huge improvement over having the talisman requirements in words on the preview page, they are still taking up far too much space for a feature used by a fairly small number of levels. Almost all levels with talismans have only one, so an entire row is given up to a single icon, while the level title is cramped against the preview image.

My suggestions:

* Move the talisman icon to the lower-left, moving all the text down. We can then decide on whether to adjust the spacing between lines.
* If you're worried that the space in the lower-left might not be enough for multiple talisman icons, have a single icon with numbers, e.g. "2/3" for "2 out of 3 achieved". Clicking the icon would bring up information on all talismans (and also have a hotkey to call up this information during play).
* Keep the talisman information in words. If you're really dead against this, at least make it an option.

[kaywhyn]

Got to try out the RC2 update earlier tonight. Was it intended to remove the ability to left-click on empty space in the title screen in order to get to the level preview screen? Quite honestly, I have always used left-click on empty space in the title screen to get to the level preview screen after selecting the right level pack or level from a level pack. I occasionally used the F2 key and the ok button to get to it, but for the most part I use left-click on empty space on the title screen. Truthfully, I would love to have the ability to left-click on empty space on the title screen to get to the level preview screen back. I guess it's just due to my habit and personal preference, particularly since I grew up with the Dos version and it allowed for clicking anywhere on the title screen to get to the level preview screen. In the meantime, I'm continuing to use v12.9.4. Also, the green color of the text at the bottom of the level preview screen appears quite blurry to me. I'm guessing that's still being worked on and improved for the stable version? I do agree with the green color, though! Especially since green so happens to be my favorite color. 

[zanzindorf]

I reworked my background a little. There were a few formations that were noticeably tiling, and the color I think needed a little more tweaking. Attached are my examples.

Draft 1: Already shown in my last post, included for quick comparison. 540x540

Draft 2: Tweaked color and tiling, also increased to 640x640 to match the default width for backgrounds.

Draft 2 with Logo: Here's an alternate idea that turned out kinda interesting, kinda a mashup of the original background and Lemmings 3D which has a diagonally tiling logo.

(Any feedback is cool, I'd be happy to rework these if needed.)

[IchoTolot]

I think Draft 2 with the logo looks a bit out of place.

I would vote for the standard Draft 2 here.

[Proxima]

I'm not wild about the logo. Both Draft 1 and 2 are much better than the current graphics, and I have no preference between them.

[namida]

Draft 2 (no logo) is my preference so far.

[Strato Incendus]

No Logo for me, please! The default should be as close to original Lemmings as possible.

If I want such additions (as in Lemmings 3D), I'll just customise the background for a specific pack myself.

[namida]

* Move the talisman icon to the lower-left, moving all the text down. We can then decide on whether to adjust the spacing between lines.
* If you're worried that the space in the lower-left might not be enough for multiple talisman icons, have a single icon with numbers, e.g. "2/3" for "2 out of 3 achieved". Clicking the icon would bring up information on all talismans (and also have a hotkey to call up this information during play).
* Keep the talisman information in words. If you're really dead against this, at least make it an option.

Do you specifically think the text info should be accessible here, or do you just think it should exist somewhere? It's still used in the overall talisman lists for a pack / rank (with one slight tweak: save requirements now show as eg "29/30" instead of just eg "29").

Regarding the bottom-left - I'm not sure if this is going to feel unbalanced when everything else is centered?

It's probably quite viable to move the title a bit further away from the level preview, while still keeping the talisman icons more or less as-is.

[Proxima]

During play, if I solve a level and move on to the next and it has a talisman, I want to learn the requirements without going back out to the level select screen, and I find the skillbar format confusing. I don't especially mind whether the text info is visible via clicking on the preview screen or via a hotkey during play or both, just so long as I don't have to go back out (and, as I've said, I don't want to go back to having them written in full on the preview screen; that takes up far too much of it).

I still think using the lower-left (lower-right would be fine as well, I can't entirely explain why I thought of left first) would feel more balanced overall, taking vertical balance into account and the fact that the majority of levels don't have any talismans, so wherever we decide the icon should go, they will just have blank space there.

[mantha16]

I've only just had a chance to download this  but my first thoughts are how much nicer it is for a simplistic user like me lol.

[namida]

I tried just moving the title (and correspondingly, the other elements) downwards a bit. No changes aside from this.

First two screenshots are with it moved downwards, last two are original position.

[Strato Incendus]

Moved-downwards looks better to me!

[namida]

RC3 update released. A few fixes, mostly talisman related.

Please double check that your talismans are being described and awarded correctly.

Note that it's not a bug if:
(a) A requirement is hidden, but it would have had no effect anyway. For example, if a talisman has "save 25" as a requirement but the level requires saving 30; or there's a "max 2 bashers" requirement on a level that gives 2 or less bashers (and yes - it takes pickup skills into account).
(b) A requirement is not explained in exactly the same way, but it is functionally 100% equivalent. For example, if you set each skill's individual limit to zero, NL will actually describe this as "without any skills" + show the graphical representation for "0 max skills" rather than 0 of each individual skill. However, if there's even the slightest practical difference, this should not be happening and it's a bug if it does.

You can use the attached ZIP to update from RC1 or RC2.

[kaywhyn]

So far looks good, although the green text at the bottom of the level preview screen still looks blurry to me. Also, just wondering if this was intended.

Was it intended to remove the ability to left-click on empty space in the title screen in order to get to the level preview screen?

[namida]

So far looks good, although the green text at the bottom of the level preview screen still looks blurry to me. Also, just wondering if this was intended.

Was it intended to remove the ability to left-click on empty space in the title screen in order to get to the level preview screen?

Yes, though undoing this is not out of the question.

In short - the code for the menu screens was, not completely rewritten from scratch, but pretty close. In particular, the code for handling mouse / keyboard input is completely replaced. Initially, I had only the clickable items (and keyboard shortcuts) on all screens. This felt awkward to me on the preview etc screen, so I restored it there, but it hasn't really bothered me on the title screen so I figured I'd leave it as is, rather than introducing an unexpected (to those not familiar with prior version behaviour) "click in empty space" behaviour.

[kaywhyn]

So far looks good, although the green text at the bottom of the level preview screen still looks blurry to me. Also, just wondering if this was intended.

Was it intended to remove the ability to left-click on empty space in the title screen in order to get to the level preview screen?

Yes, though undoing this is not out of the question.

In short - the code for the menu screens was, not completely rewritten from scratch, but pretty close. In particular, the code for handling mouse / keyboard input is completely replaced. Initially, I had only the clickable items (and keyboard shortcuts) on all screens. This felt awkward to me on the preview etc screen, so I restored it there, but it hasn't really bothered me on the title screen so I figured I'd leave it as is, rather than introducing an unexpected (to those not familiar with prior version behaviour) "click in empty space" behaviour.

I see. Yea, I would love to be able to continue clicking on empty space to go to the level preview screen, so when it didn't work anymore when I tried out the RC2 update it took me by surprise. I'm definitely used to it due to how I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings since the behavior was present there. Besides that, one could also press F1, but I never did that. I generally use the mouse way more than the keyboard when I'm playing Lemmings. By the same argument, clicking on the level select menu card will be familiar to those who grew up with Lemmings on engines that only allowed you to click on the level select menu card on the title screen in order to get to the preview screen.

So really, if the clicking the empty space behavior to proceed was restored, then that would be the best of both worlds, as the ones who grew up with the Dos version will have the empty space behavior they're familiar with, while those who could only proceed by clicking on the level select menu card in other platforms can either continue to do so because it's familiar to them or they can occasionally use the empty space behavior to proceed because the option to do so is there as well. Of course, it shouldn't be brought back just because I want it. Instead, let's see if anyone else also wants the empty space behavior. Quite frankly, I've always felt clicking on empty space is much faster than clicking on the level select card. And I'm not saying that because I grew up with the former behavior.

I do want to make it clear that the green text on the preview screen is a very welcome addition, especially for those who are completely new to NL or who never ever played the game to make it easier for them to learn to play the game. Nevertheless, since I'm very used to clicking on empty space behavior, that's what I'm going to keep using to enter the level from the preview screen even though the option to click on "continue" at the bottom of the screen is there. In this case, I'm happy the behavior's still there on the preview screen. Now if it can be restored on the title screen as well, that would be awesome and would make me a happy camper. However, let's see if others agree, as it should be brought back only if there's much demand for it. The only other compelling reason I can think of to bring it back is that this is inconsistent, since it's enabled on the preview screen but not the title screen.

Finally, in case you haven't heard it from me enough, I appreciate all the maintenance and update work you been doing on NL and continuing to improve and make it wonderful.

[WillLem]

I'm having a look at the RC build this evening. The new menu looks amazing. Just a few things I'd suggest to improve the gfx:

Logo - I've made the Lemmings' hair bigger. This version I've made is intended as a mockup/template - zanzindorf, if you agree that the hair is a better shape now, maybe you can work your magic with the colour shading.

Card Text - The size and proportion of these is now much better, but I really don't like the font on the cards; I'd suggest Showcard Gothic instead (or, go back to the "spray painted letters" effect). I've attached a very rough mockup of the LEVEL SELECT card using the Showcard Gothic font for reference (note that I had to remove the text so the shading has gone, the image is purely to showcase the font itself in relation to the card graphic).

EDIT: As a general suggestion, it might be good if the cards and text are separate graphics, so that players can easily customise the text to their own liking, if they so wish.

Scroller Lemmings - I've made them taller so they're more in proportion with the scroller itself. Also, I've attached a version with twice the number of frames so that it's slower. NL won't let me preview this one though so I'm not sure if it works...

I'll give more feedback once I've had a chance to explore the other updates. Looking great so far!

[namida]

Changing the number of frames in their animation would be an unnecessary compatibility break; but I have slowed down the animation (by displaying each frame for longer, rather than having more of them) and used your taller lemmings (normal frame count) one.

[zanzindorf]

I'm having a look at the RC build this evening. The new menu looks amazing. Just a few things I'd suggest to improve the gfx:

Logo - I've made the Lemmings' hair bigger. This version I've made is intended as a mockup/template - zanzindorf, if you agree that the hair is a better shape now, maybe you can work your magic with the colour shading.

Card Text - The size and proportion of these is now much better, but I really don't like the font on the cards; I'd suggest Showcard Gothic instead (or, go back to the "spray painted letters" effect). I've attached a very rough mockup of the LEVEL SELECT card using the Showcard Gothic font for reference (note that I had to remove the text so the shading has gone, the image is purely to showcase the font itself in relation to the card graphic).

EDIT: As a general suggestion, it might be good if the cards and text are separate graphics, so that players can easily customise the text to their own liking, if they so wish.

I agree with the feedback on the Logo. The lemmings holding the buttons underwent several iterations, but the lemmings in the logo were never updated with the same look. I need to fix that. Their hair could definitely use an update. Same with their eyes.

I'm not sure I'm sold on Showcard Gothic though. It's a nice font, and I did consider it while exploring different fonts, but I went with Cooper ultimately because it matched the Logo font (which is supposed to be similar to the original logo), and Cooper also goes well with the blue sprite font in my opinion. The logo and the sprite font have a rounded, organic feel, and Showcard is very sharp and angular. For me, the contrast between Showcard and the other fonts is kinda jarring. I searched for something that had a hand painted or spray painted look like the original, but unfortunately, Cooper was the closest I could find. I could try painting the text up by hand from scratch to try to match the look of the original text better, but that's kinda a time consuming option, and I'm not much of a font-smith, so I'm not even sure I could pull that off.

I'll work on it over the weekend, and I'll try a draft with Showcard just so we can see how it looks.

Regarding separate graphics for text and buttons, I do have the separated menu graphics available for download in a previous post (See attachment in this post: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5158.msg86352#msg86352 in "Menu Redesign 20201017.zip"), so if users wanted empty panels without text, that's definitely a thing one could do. Adding to your suggestion, after V12.10.0 is released, it might be neat to have a "Custom Menu Art" board added to the NeoLemmix forum board, as a place where users could post custom menu designs. (Something like this might already exists? Or perhaps it could be a child board in "NeoLemmix Graphic Sets"?)

[IchoTolot]

I must say that gothic font looks way worse. It just looks off. Zanzindorf's original Cooper font looks better in comparison.

I agree with the hair though.

[namida]

On a side note, how do people feel about the menu icons? Especially:
- Save requirement
- Release rate
- Max total skills (for talisman)
- Level completed / Records

I'm open to changing any of them but especially interested in feedback on those four.

[kaywhyn]

Truthfully, I got extremely confused by what the number under the trapdoor on the level select menu meant. I would select a level, see there's 40 lemmings, but then see the number 50 under the trapdoor. That got me very confused because I'm thinking, wait a minute, is there 40 lemmings or 50 lemmings? I later figured out that the number under the trapdoor, 50, is the RR. I wonder if there's a better way to depict the RR pictorially, although I can certainly understand why lemmings coming out the trapdoor and the number represents the RR. I think this should be changed though, to avoid confusion, since inside the level the number next to the trapdoor most of the time represents the total number of lemmings in the level. Most of the time, because if there's preplaced lemmings for example, then the number next to it simply represents how many remain to come out the trapdoor. I also wonder if you got the idea from Lemmings Revolution, since the RR is shown when you cursor over the hatch.

[WillLem]

I have slowed down the animation (by displaying each frame for longer, rather than having more of them) and used your taller lemmings

I went with Cooper ultimately because it matched the Logo font

I must say that gothic font looks way worse. It just looks off. Zanzindorf's original Cooper font looks better in comparison.

Fair enough. How about trying a version with Cooper that doesn't italicise the font, then? I think it might be that, more than the font itself, which I find a bit off-putting.

Adding to your suggestion, after V12.10.0 is released, it might be neat to have a "Custom Menu Art" board added to the NeoLemmix forum board, as a place where users could post custom menu designs.

Brilliant idea!

I'm glad that people agree that the logo Lems need a bit of work. Everything else about the menu is spot on. It's looking much better now and has its own "feel", emphasising that NL is its own thing.

On a side note, how do people feel about the menu icons?

Generally good, but I think a bit of demarcation might help with the overall look of this part of the menu, i.e:

[zanzindorf]

Here's a draft I made today. I still want to do a non-italic Cooper draft, and a draft for Showcard, but for now, here's a draft that shows off a new font I found: Chicle. It doesn't have a handwritten feel like the original DOS text, but it kinda has it's own charm in a different way. Still very rounded and bubbly like cooper. I also toned down the shading on the text. Let me know what you think. I'll probably work on the other drafts for Cooper non-italic and Showcard tomorrow. (Or any other fonts anyone can suggest )

https://www.1001fonts.com/chicle-font.html

Also pictured is my rework of the logo. I redid their hair and eyes. Is this any better?

Whilst working on the logo, I noticed something about the menu in-game. I just noticed that in fullscreen mode, on a 1920x1080 screen, the menu elements aren't being rendered pixel perfect (i.e. the pixels are not stretched uniformly, meaning some pixels might render as 2x2 blocks while others render as 2x3 or 3x2 blocks). I have smooth menus turned off and the level of zoom doesn't seem to fix it.

How big of a pain would it be to ask for a "pixel perfect menu" settings for full screen mode? Or, at least, have the menu elements be scaled by x2 evenly when the render view is at 1920x1080? Right now, my guess is that the menu is being scaled by x2.123 at this resolution, which is causing the lack of pixel accuracy. Rendering the menu at x2 evenly at 1920x1080, you probably would not notice a difference at all in terms of size. However, rendering the menu at x2 evenly would make the menu much more crisp at this resolution.

Note this is probably a small issue, so keep that in mind when evaluating if it's worth fixing, depending on how hard it would be to implement a solution. Pixel accuracy does matter quite a bit to some players, but I really don't think most players would even notice, so it's not too big a deal.

The third attachment on this post is a zoom of the logo as rendered in-game with certain pixels highlighted which are being rendered as 2x3 blocks rather than 2x2 blocks like the pixels around them.

[zanzindorf]

Here's some more variations of the button text.

Example 1: Chicle
Example 2: Non-Italic Cooper
Example 3: Showcard Gothic

All three examples have had their shading tweaked from the last menu draft. Let me know which everyone prefers, and I'll finish the rest of the rank texts and post a public download

[IchoTolot]

I must say I still find the original cooper font with the old shading the best one.

[namida]

Yeah, I like the current one too.

[zanzindorf]

I must say I still find the original cooper font with the old shading the best one.

Yeah, I like the current one too.

Awesome, that makes it easy for me

If we like the current font and shading, then the logo and settings button are probably the only things updated. (I redid hair and eyes for the logo and fixed some anti-aliasing on the settings button).

[Proxima]

Agreed about the font.

On a side note, how do people feel about the menu icons? Especially:
- Save requirement
- Release rate
- Max total skills (for talisman)
- Level completed / Records

I'm open to changing any of them but especially interested in feedback on those four.

For those who don't know, the save requirement and release rate icons use the Fire hatch and exit because namida asked someone to name one of the original styles, without saying what it would be used for I think it's not a good choice because the Fire exit is quite unlike most exits, and new players might not recognise it as an exit at first. I would suggest choosing one of Pillar, Marble or Brick (not Dirt just because that I feel that one is a bit overused as "the generic exit").

I don't have a problem with the release rate icon, but I don't like the one for locked release rate; the red patch is a bit hard to recognise as a lock. The in-game lock icon has an extra pixel in the arch, making the shape a bit clearer. (Also, possibly instead of a red lock over the hatch, have a black one in parentheses after the number?)

Level completed / records: Don't like. Firstly, I have no idea what it represents; secondly, nothing indicates that it's clickable.

I would suggest, instead of an icon, simply a button with the word "Records" (maybe in the top-right), since everything else clickable on this menu is a button. When viewing records, have the button change to say "Statistics" to go back.

Also, I'm not sure why the numbers on the records screen are green. Would they be amber if the level gets updated? If so then that makes sense. Still, I suggest numbers for max saved and individual skills should be black if they don't improve on the level's save requirement / number of that skill provided. Maybe also red for 100% saved / 0 skills? Or take out the redundant "Your records" icon and display the number of lemmings available.

* * *

Finally, it bothers me that at some zoom levels (particularly 3, which is what I want to use), the default window height is slightly too small to fit a 160-tall level. To be precise, zoom 3 makes the window default to 960 x 540. Since the skillbar is 120px tall (I think?), that leaves 420 for the level and it needs 480.

Although something weird is going on, because I went into settings and changed my window to 960 x 600, but that leaves a little grey bar at the top of the level; I thought it would fit exactly.

Also, I suggest that regardless of what ends up being the default, if the user configures their window to be taller than the default then on the main menu, preview and postview screens, the background should tile rather than leaving black space.

[WillLem]

@zanzindorf

Regarding the fonts, I really like Chicle! Please can you send me a copy of those so I can use that for my version? Also, if you still have copies of the cards without text at all, that'd be swish.

Saying that, it might be worth waiting until all of the ideas have been finalised just in case any further revisions are made to the graphics themselves...

The logo looks miles better now, especially the Lemming on the right. The one on the left could still do with a bit more hair I think - the feet are huge, so the hair needs to match up.

Great work!

EDIT - which program are you using to make these graphics? How are you able to make fine adjustments when the paint is anti-aliased? I'm so used to working with solid pixels, it would take me hours to edit these!

[zanzindorf]

Regarding the fonts, I really like Chicle! Please can you send me a copy of those so I can use that for my version? Also, if you still have copies of the cards without text at all, that'd be swish.

Glad you like it Here's a link to everything: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1t8hcPGjmiq7xbMWM2gyoXntT_KIosCQS?usp=sharing

(I figured it'd be a good idea to have this in a google drive folder as we're making changes.)

There's three folders here: "Italic Cooper - Dark Shading" contains the default images, "Menu Layers" contains the individual layers of each image, and "Chicle - Light Shading" contains the chicle font buttons just for you

The font files are also included in the "Menu Layers" folder in the "Font" folder.

The one on the left could still do with a bit more hair I think - the feet are huge, so the hair needs to match up.
EDIT - which program are you using to make these graphics? How are you able to make fine adjustments when the paint is anti-aliased? I'm so used to working with solid pixels, it would take me hours to edit these!

I'll take another look at the hair. The problem I'm running into with the logo is the height. For this draft, I reduced the amount of shadow for the letters at the bottom to get more canvas real estate for more hair at the top. It might need a bit more.

I'm working in an old version of Photoshop, a version from just before they switched to the subscription model. A lot of the shading for the letters is from a series of filters, so working with letters is really fast. The lemmings are drawn from scratch with a messy combination of layer masks, soft brushes, and a little bit of anti-aliasing by hand, so they take a bit longer. Sometimes I'll use Blender to do stuff like the background.

[namida]

The problem I'm running into with the logo is the height.

There's room to adjust the positioning of menu elements if needed, if we need to squeeze slightly more logo space out.

[Dullstar]

For those who don't know, the save requirement and release rate icons use the Fire hatch and exit because namida asked someone to name one of the original styles, without saying what it would be used for I think it's not a good choice because the Fire exit is quite unlike most exits, and new players might not recognise it as an exit at first. I would suggest choosing one of Pillar, Marble or Brick (not Dirt just because that I feel that one is a bit overused as "the generic exit").

I agree: the exit we choose for this should be one that's very standard-looking. In addition to these styles, I'd say Crystal might also be worth considering, and agree that Dirt is a bit overused as "the generic exit," also despite the fact that it, alongside Fire, has a unique design (whereas Pillar, Crystal, and Marble basically are all just the same design in different materials), although it's still much closer to a standard exit than Fire is.

Though perhaps narrowing it down is a good idea. Perhaps Pillar?

[namida]

My personal preference would be Crystal, but I'm not that fussed. My only outright rule is it should either be an L1 exit (ohno / etc included), or a clearly-identifiable-as-an-exit L2 exit.

[Dullstar]

I have no objections to Crystal.

[namida]

More-spaced preview screen. This adds an extra half-line to every gap. Not sure how I personally feel about it.

I haven't yet tried anything re: placement of talismans on this.

[Strato Incendus]

I for one have always liked a more spaced-out preview screen! If you recall, one of my main gripes about the early New-Formats versions was that all the text was cramped together so tightly in the middle. This has already been slightly increased in the meantime, but I wouldn't mind a little more, as you're showing it here.

The addition of the buttons at the bottom also does its part in filling up the empty screen a little more. In most cases, i.e. within a level pack where all the levels are by the same author, and assuming that most levels won't have time limits, I'm confident there will still be more than enough empty space on the screen to leave it "uncluttered": Most levels will only have the "Lemmings + Neutrals + Zombies" line plus the "To-Be-Saved" Line, then quite a large gap, and then the buttons at the bottom.

[namida]

^ Where would you put the talismans on this layout?

[Strato Incendus]

Fair question. I rarely think of those, because I usually don't care much about talismans - but of course, even I have started putting more and more into my packs.

Maybe the talisman info could fit more onto the side - but I'd also be fine with slightly less space between the lines again so that the talisman info can be placed in additional lines.

[namida]

Maybe the talisman info could fit more onto the side - but I'd also be fine with slightly less space between the lines again so that the talisman info can be placed in additional lines.

So in other words - pretty much the status quo, except with a bit more spacing between the level preview and the title? (See first two screenshots in reply 23)

[Strato Incendus]

Yep, seems fine by me!

[namida]

RC4 update. A few bugfixes, a couple of minor quality-of-life features, one cosmetic tweak.

Attached ZIP can be used to upgrade from any version V12.10.0-RC1 or higher. Otherwise, see first post for full download (and detailed changelog).

[IchoTolot]

I've fixed up United's rank sign today and here is what I learned:

Remember to change the 3 names: "sign_rank" --> "sign_group", "sign_code" --> "sign_level_select" and in the case of your rank graphics: "rank_graphic" --> "group_graphic"

The rank graphic of the rank sign is centered lower due to the lemming head holding the sign. The centered position is now lower due to the increase in height. This adds a thing people need to think about when arranging the rank sign and rank graphic.

For the following steps keep in mind that I wanted to keep my old smaller size (120x63) as I think it still looks very nice this way for United.

I used paint.net for the following steps:

- Cut out the arrows of your rank sign and make them seperate graphics with the names from namida's description ("sign_group_up/down"). Put your normal sign color in the place where the arrows were in your sign. Done!

If your rank graphic with the arrows is now not centered in the rank sign anymore do the following:

- Open the sign graphic and add additional empty space to the picture (do not stretch it!) so that it has the new size of 120x87 pixels. Paint.net will make the newly added space transparent.

- Select + Move the rank sign to the bottom of the picture again and then 5 pixels upwards. Warning: 5 pixels the the ammount for signs with no lemmings holding them. If you got lemmings holding your signs you might need to adjust this number. Adjust it in such a way that the arrows and rankgraphics are located in the middle of your sign!

- Repeat for every custom sign (usually 5) as they all should be in alinged.


Again, this is under the assumption you want to stay with the old 120x63 sign size. I think the smaller ones still look good, but it's up to you.

[namida]

Remember to change the 3 names: "sign_rank" --> "sign_group", "sign_code" --> "sign_level_select" and in the case of your rank graphics: "rank_graphic" --> "group_graphic"

With this being said, except for "sign_rank" (as the graphic itself is incompatible; whereas the other two are just bringing the names up to date with modern NL terminology / features), the old names remain supported for now.

[zanzindorf]

RC4 update. A few bugfixes, a couple of minor quality-of-life features, one cosmetic tweak.

Attached ZIP can be used to upgrade from any version V12.10.0-RC1 or higher. Otherwise, see first post for full download (and detailed changelog).

I like the spacing on the level preview screen, and I also like the little pop out window for the talisman requirement. Looks good

[namida]

Couple of changes to the level select icons:
- Locked RR; the padlock bar has been made taller.
- Save requirement; this now uses the orig_crystal exit instead of the orig_fire one.

Regarding the choice of orig_crystal: My reasoning was, Fire really is a bit too unusual to use for this (it was only ever really meant to be a placeholder), Dirt and Pillar are both far too overused as "generic" exits. The Ohno ones are all a bit unusual too, and Sega might not be recognizable enough. Between the two remaining contenders; my logic was "Dirt is by far the more overused-as-generic, and Marble looks more like that one, so I'll use Crystal".

This still should not be considered "indisputably final" - they'll be used if nothing better comes up, but at this point in time discussion remains open.

[Proxima]

Dirt is by far the more overused-as-generic, and Marble looks more like that one

The Marble exit only looks vaguely like the Dirt one -- the brickwork is very distinct from the mound of dirt -- whereas the Crystal exit is a palette swap of Pillar

Regardless of which one we go with, the hatch should match the exit.

As for the level preview screen, I prefer the way it looks now over the 1.5-spaced version; I'm even starting to feel okay about keeping the talisman icons where they are. The one thing I really would like to change is for the space between the level image and the text to be filled with more of the dirt background, not black.

[namida]

As for the level preview screen, I prefer the way it looks now over the 1.5-spaced version

Just to avoid confusion: The spacing increase in those screenshots was 1.5 -> 2, not 1 -> 1.5. (or 0.5 -> 1, not 0 -> 0.5, depending on how you want to look at it)

The one thing I really would like to change is for the space between the level image and the text to be filled with more of the dirt background, not black.

That level isn't the best for illustrating this aspect. How about this screenshot?

[Proxima]

Yeah, this is running into the same problem again. If we have to leave space for the author, time limit and talismans, then when none of those are present, the empty space looks wrong. But I don't think the solution is to increase the space between all the lines -- it looks better to keep the spacing as it is, but move the whole thing about one line down. And that only works if we either move the talisman information somewhere else, or maybe remove the time limit... I don't think that suggestion will go down too well, though.

[namida]

What I was getting at with that screenshot, is specifically the gap between the level preview and the title - it won't be filled with black, unless (a) the level actually has black at the bottom (which was the case in the earlier screenshots), or (b) the level is so wide relative to height, that when shrunk to fit, the limiting factor is the preview area's width rather than its height.

Or to describe it more technically - the preview area, which gets blacked out, is 864 x 160. The level image will be resized, keeping aspect ratio (no cropping), so that it's no more than 864px wide and no more than 160px tall. This resized image is drawn, centered, in the blacked out area. More often than not, the level image comes out as 160px tall, and <less than 864px> wide.

Time limit definitely needs to stay on the preview screen. It's rare and significant enough that it should have this kind of attention drawn to it. If we did want to reduce the number of (potential) lines, one option could be to move the author onto the same line as the rank / level number?

[kaywhyn]

Seems like I'm the only one who wants the "click on empty space to get to the level preview screen" back. Do you think there should be a poll asking about this?

[namida]

I haven't heard anyone (other than myself, and my opinion on it is only a very weak one) speak against it, so I'll more likely just go ahead and reimplement it rather than doing a poll, unless people come out and say "no, please don't put it back".

[namida]

Postview screen texts. While fixing a bug, I felt it could also use some more spacing like the preview screen.

I moved the time taken / records below the postview message. With the extra padding, the empty space between lemmings saved/required/record and the postview message felt too large, in cases where the user failed to complete the level (and thus, no time is displayed). I did consider "don't have a gap; move postview text downwards on successful attempts to make room", but this felt awkward to me. Perma-moving the time stuff below the postview texts feels a tad awkward too, but not as much so, and Proxima said it feels fine to him (on Discord). Removing time-related info altogether is also an option.

[IchoTolot]

This looks better!

[Proxima]

My thoughts on the postview screen issue:

The completion message ("That level seemed no problem to you on that attempt" or whatever) naturally belongs with the number saved, so it feels natural to have that next, followed by the time stats. It's also good to have this relatively high up on the screen so it catches the player's eye more readily. I think the way it looks in the above screenshots is good. Also, the screen is relatively sparser if you fail a level (you won't get the time stats) and this contributes to the failure screen feeling more negative (which is good, because then when you succeed, you feel more positive). The original game had something similar because you only got a level password if you succeded.

In discord last night, we discussed the possibility of talisman icons on the postview screen. My view is that, if possible, it would be good for the postview screen to show all the talisman icons for the current level, so that if you earn a talisman, you get a reminder of how many exist and how many of them you've achieved. (Maybe only display the icons after an attempt that earns one?)

[Strato Incendus]

Has the text on the post-level screen been shrunk? It looks much narrower and more in the centre.

I'm not a fan of this. Again, too much empty space, in this case on the sides (and for what purpose?).
I'm used to the post-level text spanning the entire width of the screen.

[namida]

Has the text on the post-level screen been shrunk? It looks much narrower and more in the centre.

I'm not a fan of this. Again, too much empty space, in this case on the sides (and for what purpose?).
I'm used to the post-level text spanning the entire width of the screen.

No. The only changes, aside from the NL-wide changes to menu screens (widescreen, clickable elements, taller font) are (a) time records moved below the postview text, and (b) more spacing between lines / segments added.

What this would mean, is you can have longer lines in your postview texts now. This is not a specifically intended, direct change to the postview screen itself; but rather, a consequence of that the internal size of menu screens (including postview) is wider but the font is the same width it's always been. To be clear, by "not specifically intended", I just mean that I didn't go out of my way to make the postview screen allow wider texts; I do not in any way mean "you shouldn't do this" - you absolutely may make use of it, it's an officially supported thing from 12.10 onwards.

[namida]

Does anyone have suggestions for (or feedback on) the icon used in the level select menu for records?

To be clear, I'm talking about the graphic itself. Well aware that it needs to be clearer that it's clickable - this is already sorted in the source code.

[WillLem]

Glad you like it Here's a link to everything... "Chicle - Light Shading" contains the chicle font buttons just for you

Aw, gee! Thanks, zanzindorf! It's great to know that these are compiled separately for future possible customisation. It seems everyone is happy with the cards as they are now so hopefully no further tweaks will need to be made.

I'll take another look at the hair. The problem I'm running into with the logo is the height.

Actually, I'd say it's more that the hair needs a bit of width rather than height, particularly the lem on the left. It's a really minor point though and I'm only really mentioning it because now's the time to make those sorts of tweaks whilst everything's still in development. For the record, the logo and everything else look absolutely awesome as they are, so any further improvements are a bonus

pretty much the status quo, except with a bit more spacing between the level preview and the title? (See first two screenshots in reply 23)

+1 for this - the first 2 screenshots in reply 23 look just fine to me, in terms of spacing and everything. If it's possible to have a different layout for levels without talismans then I'd say just move everything down a few lines to centralise it (rather than adding extra space between each line, which looks a bit messy) for only those levels without talismans. I have no objection to there simply being a gap though, if multiple layouts (i.e. depending on presence or not of talisman) are not possible/too difficult to be worth implementing.

Save requirement; this now uses the orig_crystal exit instead of the orig_fire one.

Yay!

Does anyone have suggestions for (or feedback on) the icon used in the level select menu for records?

Since it's a rosette, it could be misinterpreted as simply an indication that the level has been completed. A medal or trophy graphic would present the same issue. I'd probably suggest something like an open book, or maybe a document with bullet points (although these might be a bit too "office-y").

I'll have a think about this one and see if I can come up with anything.

[namida]

Since it's a rosette, it could be misinterpreted as simply an indication that the level has been completed.

In a sense, it doubles as this as well, since it's only shown once the level is completed (as no records exist prior to this - well, I guess lemmings saved still does).

[WillLem]

In a sense, it doubles as this as well, since it's only shown once the level is completed

Absolutely, but this is all the more reason why it could be misinterpreted. Perhaps if it was always shown (and just links to an empty records view if the level hasn't been played), this would give clear indication that it isn't a "level completed" medal.

Another option could be to simply have the word "Records" displayed in a button, which changes colour when hovered-over to indicate that it's meant to be clicked.

[namida]

Proxima also suggested using the word. It feels awkard to me, but with two people now suggesting it, perhaps it's worth trying out.

To be clear - for the next update, that graphic, as well as talisman icons, are now clearly clickable buttons rather than seeming to just be inert images.

[namida]

Uploaded the RC5 update. This should be getting very close to final now.

Attached ZIP can be used to upgrade from any previous V12.10.0-RC version. Full download and changelog are in the first post.

The only thing that I can think of that still needs discussion is the Records button. Does anyone have other graphic suggestions, and/or comments on existing suggestions (including the suggestion of "use text")? If no better alternatives are suggested, the existing graphic will remain.

[WillLem]

If no better alternatives are suggested, the existing graphic will remain.

Does this mean that you don't regard using the text as a better alternative? FWIW, I'd say it would definitely be better to simply have a "Records" button than a graphic.

However, I can also see that keeping it as a graphic is more consistent with the rest of the menu's appearance. In that case, the rosette is fine, but maybe it could have an "R" on it as a compromise?

I've attached a version with an R (and a different colour scheme)

EDIT: One idea that could avoid all confusion about all menu graphics would be to show what it is when hovered-over (a little mini dialog could appear saying "Records", "Release Rate", "Lem Count", "Save Requirement", etc)

[namida]

If no better alternatives are suggested, the existing graphic will remain.

Does this mean that you don't regard using the text as a better alternative? FWIW, I'd say it would definitely be better to simply have a "Records" button than a graphic.

It's more that I'm treating it as a "last resort, if there's nothing else and lots of opposition to the graphic". It really doesn't feel right to me, especially with the talismans that (may) appear alongside it being graphical.

The recolored rosette looks nicer, and the R on it is a good compromise that doesn't feel too out-of-place.

[Minim]

So I downloaded and played the new RC NeoLemmix for the first time. Very impressive looking front page! I like the new graphics for the ranks in Lemmings Redux. I'll certainly be looking forward to trying some levels with the new gameplay and post-screen interface.

The Redux levels however still haven't been updated. As there's still plenty of time before the deadline, I have re-attached the file used for the levels folder but this time - hopefully as this is more convenient for you - put the necessary ones in rather than gather them all at once, and in the appropriate places.

[namida]

I grabbed the latest download from the first page of the Redux topic, at the time I added Redux to the RC. I'll update this again alongside the stable release (ie: if there's an RC6, it'll have the same Redux version it does now).

[WillLem]

The recolored rosette looks nicer, and the R on it is a good compromise that doesn't feel too out-of-place.

Cool, thanks! Feel free to use it in the absence of better ideas or objections. I agree, a graphic does seem to make more sense given that all other menu items are represented by graphics.

[namida]

In light of a fairly concerning bug report I am delaying the release of 12.10 stable until I have had a chance to look into it. This should be either later today or tomorrow, so the new target release date is Saturday.

There is also a couple of minor matters to look into as well, but those alone would not have been cause for delay (they are minor enough they could be left for a 12.10.1 update, or possibly even fixed without needing a delay / later update).

[namida]

Finally, it bothers me that at some zoom levels (particularly 3, which is what I want to use), the default window height is slightly too small to fit a 160-tall level. To be precise, zoom 3 makes the window default to 960 x 540. Since the skillbar is 120px tall (I think?), that leaves 420 for the level and it needs 480.

What the default window size should be is, of course, subjective. The formula currently used is:
> Start with a zoom factor of [Screen width / 320] or [Screen height / 180], rounded down, whichever is less.
> If the user's default in-game zoom is less than this, set the zoom factor to that instead
> If the zoom factor is less than 1 (low-res) or less than 2 (hi-res), set it to the respective value
> Set the window's ClientWidth to 320 x the zoom factor
> If the user uses the full-width skill panel, and the window width is less than 416px (low-res) or 832px (hi-res), set it to that
> Set the window's ClientHeight such that the width to height ratio is 16:9

ClientWidth and ClientHeight refer to the actual content area of the window; ie: excluding the title bar and borders.

It's obviously not possible to have an ideal window size for every level. 160px tall is particularly common for historical reasons, but there's no actual engine-based reason why it would have special status.  320px tall and 416px wide are significant due to being the widths of the skill panel; 16:9 is significant as the internal aspect ratio of menu screens.

Ultimately, I don't feel that "some levels are not an exact fit" is a particularly strong reason to adjust the algorithm, and that it would be impossible to have a default size that keeps everyone happy. Those who use windowed mode and do not like the default size are, of course, free to resize it - and if NL is ignoring / changing your custom sizing (other than enforcing a sensible range; ie: must be enough space for skill panel + at least some view of the level), report this as a bug. I could also consider, in a future update, providing input boxes in the settings menu so that you can directly type in a window size, rather than having to edit the settings INI file in order to be precise.

Although something weird is going on, because I went into settings and changed my window to 960 x 600, but that leaves a little grey bar at the top of the level; I thought it would fit exactly.

I explained this in Discord already, but I'll put it here too for reference - unless you're using the compact panel, this is not unusual at all. Unzoomed, the skill panel is 40px tall; and I'm assuming you're still talking about the same level, in particular, that it's 160px tall. For a 960x600 window, the full-width skill panel can only zoom to 2x due to the width (832px when zoomed 2x; it would need 1248 to zoom 3x). Therefore, its height is 80px. This leaves 520px - your description + expected defaults lead me to believe this is a 3x zoom, which for a 160px tall level, would be 480px. This leaves 40px of empty space. If you want to fill the window exactly, either (a) widen it to 1248px, if you want to keep the height as-is; (b) shorten it to 560px tall, if you want to keep the width as-is; or (c) switch to the compact panel, if you want to keep both as-is.

Also, I suggest that regardless of what ends up being the default, if the user configures their window to be taller than the default then on the main menu, preview and postview screens, the background should tile rather than leaving black space.

I am open to this idea, but it would be for V12.11 or V12.12 at this stage. Feel free to make a suggestion topic.


With this, I believe all outstanding matters are closed, and will now work on putting together a stable release.