[DISC][PLAYER] Remove timer on nuke

[ccexplore]

I don't doubt that there are ways to make interesting nuke solutions.  But it's also worth pointing out that if your solution requires nuking in its current timed form, you are then also effectively bringing back the element of timed bombers into the level solution, an element that had been excised in all other contexts in NeoLemmix.

Of course, things like release rates and timed levels can be used in bad ways, but they can also be used in good ways and so ultimately we still keep them around in NeoLemmix.  Perhaps the same goes for the timer in nuking?

[namida]

I stand by the no-cull or the suggestion made by namida.

(The suggestion in question is the "countdown bypass nuke" option.)

I would proceed under the assumption that one or the other will happen. Should we decide against a cull, there's no downside to having the "countdown bypass nuke" - it doesn't do anything a regular nuke cannot, it just helps time it, so it does not change physics in any way; it would merely be yet another convenience feature in the UI that doesn't exist as far as game physics / replay data is concerned.

[Simon]

Countdown bypass nuke: When you activate this, it must remove (without explosion) all lemmings that are younger than 5 seconds. This is lovely for whoever knows the entire history of this feature, but will look odd to everybody else.

-- Simon

[namida]

One other option could be to also have a physics change, that lemmings don't stop spawning until the first lemming's countdown ends (or would have ended, if he dies prior to that). This closes that above oddity too.

Downside: This isn't breakage-free. While it's certianly less breakage than an outright cull of the timer, I can indeed think of a case where this breaks a level.

Spoils level and solution (click to show/hide)

Or, at least, a talisman. "Infection Channel" from LPVI, where the talisman solution relies on using the nuke to stop zombies spawning, allowing some regular lemmings to reach the exit before their timer runs out.

[Dullstar]

I don't have a problem with this cull even if it breaks levels. Timed bombers were annoying enough when you just had to use one. I'm not really a fan of nuke solutions anyway; the nuke mechanic feels like something that's mostly just there because it was in the original, and the most comparable object types that have ever existed in NeoLemmix would be the Radiation and Slowfreeze objects, which were both culled (which, IMO, was a positive change; I hated both playing with and designing with those objects).

But I think we should either completely keep it or completely cull it. No wonky hard-to-explain behavior in an attempt to preserve existing nuke solutions as-is while also allowing the delayed assignments.

It will never happen but tbh I wouldn't mind seeing the nuke go entirely, for very similar reasoning as that which was used to justify the slowfreeze/radiation culls.

[Crane]

I personally do not want the nuke timer removed.  Traditionally it was a fun way to watch some fireworks if you had failed the level, and the timer builds on the anticipation.  As mentioned before, a number of levels have been designed that depend on the nuke and its countdown behaviour in some way.  In some nuke levels, it may be possible to complete them without the countdown timer if the "one after the other" behaviour is retained...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Supernova

...but there are a few levels that specifically require the timer, either due to assigning a skill to a lemming with a countdown (in effect, mimicking the timed bomber)...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Are you kidding me?!

...or a lemming with a countdown making it to the exit, where exiting beforehand would cause later lemmings to explode too soon:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From the Brink

Most levels of course don't use the nuke, so are not affected by this change, but I feel changing it does not really give anything to the engine and will instead take a lot more away.  Long story short, I say "leave as is".

[ccexplore]

The proposed "timer bypass" nuke activation (ie. rewind 5 seconds, nuke, fast forward 5 seconds) is a neat tool in the same way replay editing is (and really, it is an example of replay editing under the hood).  But some of the observable side effects (such as cases Simon mentioned) will probably look too confusing to the uninitiated to be left as the default.  It feels more like an advance feature like replay editing, that may be better off only invoked on demand for those in the know.  Maybe something as simple as holding Shift key while invoking nuke via any input method.

I should note that I haven't played much custom levels let alone those that require nuke solutions, my experience is heavily biased towards challenge solutions.  In those cases at least, timing the nuke is often just a small part of the overall work needed to plan things out.  Much more effort tends to be spent on things like planning release rate changes, timing certain skill assignments, finding certain key lemmings to divert from the overall stream, etc.  Still, every little bit helps.  Then again, given it literally is no more than rewind-nuke-fastforward, it is already achievable today manually; the convenience of having the sequence carried out with one keystroke is nice but not that essential.

[namida]

Okay so - I'm convinced that removing the timer isn't a great idea. Instead, I'll look at what can be done with regards to ease-of-execution features to make it less annoying.