[DISC][PLAYER] Remove timer on nuke

[namida]

The more I think about it, the more I'm realising - having timers on the nuke really doesn't make any more sense than having them on regular bombers. Even in levels with nuke solutions, it should generally be possible to preserve any replay simply by delaying the nuke assignment by 5 seconds.

And of course - it'd clean up the code a bit.

Is there any good reason not to do this?

(Culling the nuke is not under consideration here. Only culling the timer on it is.)

[Ron_Stard]

Although I like (and miss a lot) the timed bombers, I think there is no point in maintaining the timed bombers in the nuke "skill" when that behaviour has been eliminated in regular bombers. In order to keep coherence with the philosophy of NeoLemmix, it should be removed.

[IchoTolot]

Even in levels with nuke solutions, it should generally be possible to preserve any replay simply by delaying the nuke assignment by 5 seconds.

The replays are not the big problem. The levels are.

I know quite a few levels where the timer on the nuke is essential to the level in combination with the mechanic that one lemmings after the other gets it.

Examples:

Timer needed:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Armani's Supernova
Crane's Are you kidding me?!
Deceit's Enter at your own risk....
One of my own levels from United
...

Only the fact that one lemming after the other gets nuked is essential:

Basically all other remaining nuke solutions.

The timer is needed in the levels in the first category in the sense that after the nuke button has been pressed the lemmings get assigned the timer chronologically and still walk for the 5 seconds giving them time to still reach the exit. This can be used to let a lemming explode with the nuke, create a gap in the assign chain by letting the next lemmings exit and the initial explosion allows the rest to be saved from the nuke.
So the delay between the first lemming exploding and the last ones is being used.

If NL was a new engine the deceision would be easier. But after so many years I think it's not worth the cost to remove this. You essentially just break a bunch of levels for no real gain other than a slight code clean up. Also, even if I'm usually not a big nostalgia guy, having a count down before the big final firework is classy and neat.

So, I say no here.

[ccexplore]

I think namida's suggestion is not to remove the "assign lemming by lemming" aspect of nuking, only that they explode immediately upon getting bomber instead of after counting down 5 seconds.  So there's still the same delay between the first lemming and the last, but the first lemming explodes (or "oh no") pretty much immediately when nuke is invoked, versus 5 seconds afterwards like today.

It seems like most existing nuke solutions should still work with this change by simply initiating the nuke 5 seconds later.  To be clear it's not 100% equivalent--initiating the nuke also cuts off any yet-to-enter lemmings from entering, and use of cloners on lemmings that are already in countdown is no longer possible.  And possibly a few other details I can't think of right now.  But these sorts of details are not typically used or required in nuke solutions.

[IchoTolot]

I think namida's suggestion is not to remove the "assign lemming by lemming" aspect of nuking, only that they explode immediately upon getting bomber instead of after counting down 5 seconds.  So there's still the same delay between the first lemming and the last, but the first lemming explodes (or "oh no") pretty much immediately when nuke is invoked, versus 5 seconds afterwards like today.

It seems like most existing nuke solutions should still work with this change by simply initiating the nuke 5 seconds later.  To be clear it's not 100% equivalent--initiating the nuke also cuts off any yet-to-enter lemmings from entering, and use of cloners on lemmings that are already in countdown is no longer possible.  And possibly a few other details I can't think of right now.  But these sorts of details are not typically used or required in nuke solutions.

I was thinking that was the case as well and that still leaves my concerns and criticisims. Also, it still would break levels with no possible fix for not much gain other than a bit of code clean up.

[namida]

Indeed, I am not suggesting that the lemming by lemming application be removed, only the timer.

[Simon]

It seems like most existing nuke solutions should still work with this change by simply initiating the nuke 5 seconds later.
[...] And possibly a few other details
[...] these sorts of details are not typically used or required in nuke solutions.

Hard to assess whether "most" is correct; I'm not this deeply in custom content to judge.

At least one more level where undelayed nuke certainly affects solvability:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Clam's From the Brink

Reason/solution (click to show/hide)

The nuke must be used to explode two lemmings, an early spawner and a late spawner, and the late spawner must explode several seconds after the early spawner.

The nuke accomplishes this because the nuke will, in between these two lemmings, assign many timed exploders to the crowd. The crowd will exit before their timers finish, but these assignments still delayed the exploder assignment to the late spawner, as desired. This is the core trick.

With undelayed nuke, either the crowd wouldn't have time to exit, or, if the crowd exits, the two lemmings to explode would explode too soon after each other.

Hard decision.

There is the discrepancy between manually assigned exploders and nuke-exploders.

The nuke is highly special anyway; the nuke has a fool's license to work however it likes, softening the discrepancy. Aesthetically, both the timed and the undelayed nuke sound fine.

It would break a few select levels.

-- Simon

[namida]

One possible alternative to removing the timer is to have a "timer bypass" method of activating it, which makes the first lemming explode "now". This nuke bypass would, in practice, be "rewind 5 seconds, nuke, fast forward 5 seconds", to ensure any physics side-effects are captured correctly.

This would not break any existing physics or replays, but would provide a less chaotic / execution-dependent method of triggering the nuke.

Thoughts?

[IchoTolot]

One possible alternative to removing the timer is to have a "timer bypass" method of activating it, which makes the first lemming explode "now". This nuke bypass would, in practice, be "rewind 5 seconds, nuke, fast forward 5 seconds", to ensure any physics side-effects are captured correctly.

This would not break any existing physics or replays, but would provide a less chaotic / execution-dependent method of triggering the nuke.

Thoughts?

Hm, that's interesting.

The only problem I would see with this, is that maybe in the particular set of nuke levels that rely on that, the gap between the first explosion and the last ones created by the exiting lemmings during those skipped 5 seconds is not as visually clear anymore as the player does not witness the countdown phase.
On the other hand in levels where you have to aim the nuke explosion with lemmings it's a straight upgrade.

I would still vote for this over the cull.

[namida]

The only problem I would see with this, is that maybe in the particular set of nuke levels that rely on that, the gap between the first explosion and the last ones created by the exiting lemmings during those skipped 5 seconds is not as visually clear anymore as the player does not witness the countdown phase.

The first lemming would "ohno" (or directly explode, if in an applicable state) immediately upon triggering this option. All other lemmings would still have part of their countdown remaining - some may not have even started it yet, if there's 86+ lemmings on the level.

[Proxima]

One possible alternative to removing the timer is to have a "timer bypass" method of activating it, which makes the first lemming explode "now". This nuke bypass would, in practice, be "rewind 5 seconds, nuke, fast forward 5 seconds", to ensure any physics side-effects are captured correctly.

This would not break any existing physics or replays, but would provide a less chaotic / execution-dependent method of triggering the nuke.

Thoughts?

Seems overly complicated for not much gain. Levels requiring nuke are extremely rare. 99% of the time, nuke is just a way of ending the level -- and if you don't want to wait the extra five seconds, the default hotkey layout has a 10-second skip.

Levels using the nuke in a puzzle are even rarer; the majority of nuke levels are just gimmick levels that have nothing to them beyond the novelty of nuking, and it doesn't need to be timed at all precisely to meet the (always extremely low) save requirement.

[namida]

Levels using the nuke in a puzzle are even rarer; the majority of nuke levels are just gimmick levels that have nothing to them beyond the novelty of nuking, and it doesn't need to be timed at all precisely to meet the (always extremely low) save requirement.

I can think of two examples (one of which is only nuke-reliant for the talisman) in my own levels, and at least one other level (other than Simon's detailed example earlier in the topic), where this is not the case.

[IchoTolot]

Levels using the nuke in a puzzle are even rarer; the majority of nuke levels are just gimmick levels that have nothing to them beyond the novelty of nuking, and it doesn't need to be timed at all precisely to meet the (always extremely low) save requirement.

And that is where you are wrong.

The levels that are affected by this cull don't just use it as a novelty. There is actually much more to it other than just pressing the nuke at the right time.

You need a proper setup and often need to execute additional actions during the countdown, while still being not that precise.

It's 100% not just a gimmick there and those levels listed earlier I would put into the category of levels I enjoyed the most out of all levels I played so far (and that's saying something) because of exactly that creativity and usage of nuke mechanics. Also some have a very high save requirement on top of that, let's just say that my affected level you would never ever make out as a nuke level when looking at the save requirement - I tried to disguise it very well.

[Proxima]

I'm aware there are examples of the puzzle type. "Majority" does not mean "all".

[IchoTolot]

I'm aware there are examples of the puzzle type. "Majority" does not mean "all".

I would even argue that the majority is indeed of the puzzle type. I rarely see the non-puzzle type these days while the puzzle type surfaces every now and then.

I see not much gain in the cull and the result would be the removal of quite a few very high quality levels. I would even go as far to put them among the levels I enjoyed the most.

The gain is not worth the cull here, instead we lose quite a bit.

I stand by the no-cull or the suggestion made by namida.

[ccexplore]

I don't doubt that there are ways to make interesting nuke solutions.  But it's also worth pointing out that if your solution requires nuking in its current timed form, you are then also effectively bringing back the element of timed bombers into the level solution, an element that had been excised in all other contexts in NeoLemmix.

Of course, things like release rates and timed levels can be used in bad ways, but they can also be used in good ways and so ultimately we still keep them around in NeoLemmix.  Perhaps the same goes for the timer in nuking?

[namida]

I stand by the no-cull or the suggestion made by namida.

(The suggestion in question is the "countdown bypass nuke" option.)

I would proceed under the assumption that one or the other will happen. Should we decide against a cull, there's no downside to having the "countdown bypass nuke" - it doesn't do anything a regular nuke cannot, it just helps time it, so it does not change physics in any way; it would merely be yet another convenience feature in the UI that doesn't exist as far as game physics / replay data is concerned.

[Simon]

Countdown bypass nuke: When you activate this, it must remove (without explosion) all lemmings that are younger than 5 seconds. This is lovely for whoever knows the entire history of this feature, but will look odd to everybody else.

-- Simon

[namida]

One other option could be to also have a physics change, that lemmings don't stop spawning until the first lemming's countdown ends (or would have ended, if he dies prior to that). This closes that above oddity too.

Downside: This isn't breakage-free. While it's certianly less breakage than an outright cull of the timer, I can indeed think of a case where this breaks a level.

Spoils level and solution (click to show/hide)

Or, at least, a talisman. "Infection Channel" from LPVI, where the talisman solution relies on using the nuke to stop zombies spawning, allowing some regular lemmings to reach the exit before their timer runs out.

[Dullstar]

I don't have a problem with this cull even if it breaks levels. Timed bombers were annoying enough when you just had to use one. I'm not really a fan of nuke solutions anyway; the nuke mechanic feels like something that's mostly just there because it was in the original, and the most comparable object types that have ever existed in NeoLemmix would be the Radiation and Slowfreeze objects, which were both culled (which, IMO, was a positive change; I hated both playing with and designing with those objects).

But I think we should either completely keep it or completely cull it. No wonky hard-to-explain behavior in an attempt to preserve existing nuke solutions as-is while also allowing the delayed assignments.

It will never happen but tbh I wouldn't mind seeing the nuke go entirely, for very similar reasoning as that which was used to justify the slowfreeze/radiation culls.

[Crane]

I personally do not want the nuke timer removed.  Traditionally it was a fun way to watch some fireworks if you had failed the level, and the timer builds on the anticipation.  As mentioned before, a number of levels have been designed that depend on the nuke and its countdown behaviour in some way.  In some nuke levels, it may be possible to complete them without the countdown timer if the "one after the other" behaviour is retained...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Supernova

...but there are a few levels that specifically require the timer, either due to assigning a skill to a lemming with a countdown (in effect, mimicking the timed bomber)...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Are you kidding me?!

...or a lemming with a countdown making it to the exit, where exiting beforehand would cause later lemmings to explode too soon:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From the Brink

Most levels of course don't use the nuke, so are not affected by this change, but I feel changing it does not really give anything to the engine and will instead take a lot more away.  Long story short, I say "leave as is".

[ccexplore]

The proposed "timer bypass" nuke activation (ie. rewind 5 seconds, nuke, fast forward 5 seconds) is a neat tool in the same way replay editing is (and really, it is an example of replay editing under the hood).  But some of the observable side effects (such as cases Simon mentioned) will probably look too confusing to the uninitiated to be left as the default.  It feels more like an advance feature like replay editing, that may be better off only invoked on demand for those in the know.  Maybe something as simple as holding Shift key while invoking nuke via any input method.

I should note that I haven't played much custom levels let alone those that require nuke solutions, my experience is heavily biased towards challenge solutions.  In those cases at least, timing the nuke is often just a small part of the overall work needed to plan things out.  Much more effort tends to be spent on things like planning release rate changes, timing certain skill assignments, finding certain key lemmings to divert from the overall stream, etc.  Still, every little bit helps.  Then again, given it literally is no more than rewind-nuke-fastforward, it is already achievable today manually; the convenience of having the sequence carried out with one keystroke is nice but not that essential.

[namida]

Okay so - I'm convinced that removing the timer isn't a great idea. Instead, I'll look at what can be done with regards to ease-of-execution features to make it less annoying.