[SUG][PLAYER] Ability to turn skill shadows on and off

[WillLem]

EDIT: To make it very clear - my suggestion is that the skill shadows be controlled via a Hotkey, rather than necessarily in the F3 menu. So, the options would be:

Permanently enabled (default)
Permanently disabled by toggling them off with {Hotkey1} in-game (pressing the same Hotkey again would toggle them back on)
Permanently disabled, but temporarily enabled by holding down {Hotkey2}, like you can with CPM

For:

• Since it's a very obvious visual feature, it impacts gameplay directly and should therefore be optional
• It may encourage newcomers to get used to NeoLemmix more quickly by making it less exclusive, giving them the option to make the gameplay more familiar, and get used to skill shadows at their own pace
• It would give players the option to experience custom content in a similar way to classic content, should they wish to try it out this way
• Ultimately, it gives the player full control over their gameplay and experience

Against:

• If introduced as an option, level creators may need to consider this, and this may affect level design (but not necessarily)
• Keeping it non-optional preserves, maintains and promotes the NeoLemmix philosophy of pure-puzzle gameplay by forcing players to get used to the feature, or go elsewhere if they don't like it
• Keeping it non-optional makes the NeoLemmix experience more universally standardised; i.e. all players know that all other players always use skill shadows

[Forestidia86]

It seems reason enough that several people want that option to implement it since the shadows are visually intrusive.

But on a sidenote there are many reasons to let the shadows turned on since they are extremely useful and help avoiding annoying readjustments. They're one of the few features that are dearly missing in Lix (at least singleplayer).

[IchoTolot]

I am still not very fond of the idea as it goes against the NL philosophy and for an original touch we've got the old games.

It's a checkbox that can be avoided, too many just clutter the options menu.

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active. Even the intro pack will assume the player as them always on, I won't make any extra considerations for this.

[IchoTolot]

It may encourage newcomers to get used to NeoLemmix more quickly by making it less exclusive, giving them the option to make the gameplay more familiar, and get used to skill shadows at their own pace

I would argue that skill shadows making NL way more inclusive as they help and support the player without changing the core gameplay and it is immidiatly clear what they display. They can even support the player with displaying new skills. They don't add anything extra to learn as well.

If introduced as an option, level creators may need to consider this, and this may affect level design

If this would ever be the case I am totally against it. We've got skill shadows and we should assume that players know when to use them. I don't want a mere option limit the design possibilities.

As the default setting would be on though, I think this should not be the case.

Keeping it non-optional preserves, maintains and promotes the NeoLemmix philosophy of pure-puzzle gameplay by forcing players to get used to the feature, or go elsewhere if they don't like it

It would give players the option to experience custom content in a similar way to classic content, should they wish to try it out this way

No skill shadow playing is mostly a side effect of wanting to recreate nostalgia. We've already got that covered with the original games, no need to cover it again and again, especially if NL follows a different philosophy. We don't need countless nostalgia options in the menus.

[WillLem]

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active.

Maybe something like this could come up as a popup:

"Skill shadows can be toggled on/off via (Hotkey) during play.

Most custom levels are designed with skill shadows active - are you sure you wish to disable this option?

OK / Cancel"

[Proxima]

That sounds creepy, and I'd be pretty unnerved if I were a new user and selecting an option brought up something like that.

Skill shadows on will be the default, and to disable them at all, you'll have to know how to go into options and do so. Surely we can trust that anyone who can do that is also capable of turning them back on if they want.

[WillLem]

there are many reasons to let the shadows turned on since they are extremely useful and help avoiding annoying readjustments. They're one of the few features that are dearly missing in Lix (at least singleplayer).

I'm only suggesting that it be an option, not that skill shadows are removed entirely. I would likely keep them on most of the time, tbh, but it would be good to have the option to occasionally play without them.

I would argue that skill shadows making NL way more inclusive as they help and support the player without changing the core gameplay and it is immidiatly clear what they display. They can even support the player with displaying new skills.

Good point! If implemented, I'm sure that the default option would be for skill shadows to be kept switched on, and I'm sure that most players would choose to have them switched on most of the time (myself included), so these benefits wouldn't disappear if they were made optional.

We've got skill shadows and we should assume that players know when to use them. I don't want a mere option limit the design possibilities.

I think there's been a misunderstanding - I'm not saying that level designers should design with the skill shadow option in mind, I'm just saying that it might affect some people's design decisions, and I've listed this as an argument against including the option.

As the default setting would be on though, I think this should not be the case.

Agreed.

No skill shadow playing is mostly a side effect of wanting to recreate nostalgia. We've already got that covered with the original games, no need to cover it again and again, especially if NL follows a different philosophy. We don't need countless nostalgia options in the menus.

To be quite honest, I don't think it should be a menu option at all, I think it would be better implemented as a Hotkey, in the same way that CPM can be toggled on/off or be temporarily enabled by holding down your chosen Hotkey. If skill shadows worked the same way, then they could be used momentarily, when the player chooses, rather than always being an intrusively visible feature of the game.

It isn't just about nostalgia, it's about wanting the game to look its best as well. I'd likely want to play some of the custom content with the shadows off, not just the original levels.

[WillLem]

That sounds creepy, and I'd be pretty unnerved if I were a new user and selecting an option brought up something like that.

To be fair, I only suggested it coz of what Icho said. As I've now mentioned in this OP, I'd simply have it as a Hotkey option and not necessarily as a menu option at all.

[IchoTolot]

To be fair, I only suggested it coz of what Icho said. As I've just now mentioned in this post, I'd simply have it as a Hotkey option and not necessarily as a menu option at all.

A hotkey option would be worse imo. You can accidentally press a hotkey, you cannot press a menu option accidentally.

[WillLem]

A hotkey option would be worse imo. You can accidentally press a hotkey, you cannot press a menu option accidentally.

Sure, but you wouldn't remove all HotKey capabilities from the game for this reason.

Also, it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on).

[IchoTolot]

Sure, but you wouldn't remove all HotKey capabilities from the game for this reason.

Also, it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on).

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened. A hotkey for selecting a skill/framestep has much lesser impact and often they don't change things permanently until repessed.

Then I would rather take the extra checkbox in the options menu. The hotkey would be the far more dangerous option and can potentionaly harm a new players experience when it gets hit by accident and the player is unsure which button they hit.

Again, I still think the option is not needed, but if it is to be implemented the checkbox is the way to go.

[WillLem]

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened.

I addressed this in my last message:

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

To be honest, if a user-customised Hotkey was the only way to toggle skill shadows on and off, a lot of players would likely never realise that it was even an option, and so things would largely remain the same. Only those who specifically want to customise their experience in this way would take the time to do so; this is what I'm suggesting.

Seems like a win-win to me.

[Simon]

Please can one of the mods move everything from [...] onwards to this topic instead. Thank you!

Merged!

-- Simon

[namida]

Moved this to the appropriate board and replaced the poll with one that has answers that are useful to me.

My reasoning here: Before we consider how the feature works, we need to establish there's enough interest in having it at all. I believe there is, but I'd rather confirm this. Also, for a question like this, "I don't care" and "I specifically don't want it" are answers I'd treat equally - because this is a feature the latter group can outright ignore without it having any effect on them, however subtle. (A different consideration with such cases that IS still applicable is, "would this be a lot of effort to implement?" - but for this specific case, the answer to that is "no, it's barely any effort at all".)

Once we establish if the feature is desired, then we can talk about the how. For this case, an in-game hotkey would be significantly more work than just a menu option, even though the same "you can ignore it" equally applies. For that reason, I'd need to see a very strong preference for hotkey (compared to "menu option only") to consider doing that.

[IchoTolot]

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

To be honest, if a user-customised Hotkey was the only way to toggle skill shadows on and off, a lot of players would likely never realise that it was even an option, and so things would largely remain the same. Only those who specifically want to customise their experience in this way would take the time to do so; this is what I'm suggesting.

Seems like a win-win to me.

Then it's a very hidden option which is also bad. I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.

[WillLem]

I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.

Both would be best, of course, but if I had to choose I'd much rather have it as a Hotkey, that way it's accessible during play. The problem with a checkbox is that if you're playing a level that you need to use skill shadows on, you have to save the replay, exit the level, change the option, then go back in and resume from the replay.

If it could simply be toggled on/off, and (better yet) incidentally applied by holding down a key (like you can with CPM), that would be ideal.

[WillLem]

There is, of course, one other thing to take into account here: Namida is looking at working towards a final version of NeoLemmix.

Surely it would be better for the final version to have this option, particularly if it isn't too difficult to implement and is unlikely to create any actual problems.

[Dullstar]

I agree with Icho that this feature doesn't fit with the NeoLemmix philosophy and is potentially dangerous:

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active. Even the intro pack will assume the player as them always on, I won't make any extra considerations for this. [emphasis added]

I've posted about this in another topic, but I think it deserves reiterating here:

Players using the option to disable skill shadows would need to change these options when playing packs designed with them in mind, since otherwise the levels will be significantly harder than their developers intended. The player should not have to tweak their options to play certain content, and level designers shouldn't have to account for the player's options when designing the level. If the player's options have to be considered in the level design, it probably shouldn't be an option in the first place.

A hold-to-activate hotkey setting can mitigate this, but is still a risky choice compared to simply not giving the option at all, particularly if the hotkey doesn't have a default setting. Some players might disable the skill shadows, play some content that doesn't really need them, and then forget about the option's existence by the time they encounter a level that requires it.

My levels are designed and tested with NeoLemmix's player assist features in mind. They won't necessarily go out of their way to require these features be used, but they are not tested for execution difficulty (or even basic solvability) without these features.


As far as the hotkey versus no hotkey debate:

I think a hotkey to disable skill shadows is a bad idea; my reasoning is basically identical to Icho's:

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened. A hotkey for selecting a skill/framestep has much lesser impact and often they don't change things permanently until repessed.

Then I would rather take the extra checkbox in the options menu. The hotkey would be the far more dangerous option and can potentionaly harm a new players experience when it gets hit by accident and the player is unsure which button they hit.

Again, I still think the option is not needed, but if it is to be implemented the checkbox is the way to go.

Then it's a very hidden option which is also bad. I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.

If we were to include a menu option, a hotkey like with Clear Physics to temporarily show them would be useful. But, when they are enabled, the hotkey should do nothing, as for players who don't go out of their way to disable skill shadows in the menu, this behavior is never desirable. The opposite, however, is potentially useful and would deserve a default setting (I'm envisioning this as a hotkey to be held down).

[Proxima]

I think both of you are overstating how "difficult" levels become without skill shadows. More laborious, yes, but not really more difficult. We were without skill shadows for years and no-one complained or thought of them as a feature we should have; they only came about by accident when Arty was arguing for timed bombers by saying "We don't have execution aids for the other skills", and we all figuratively looked at each other and said "Great idea!"

Most skills are still relatively easy to place accurately (because another part of NL philosophy is that high precision should be avoided where possible); for the more problematic cases such as long bridges or miners, the skill of estimating them can be learned; any time the player gets it wrong, it's still easy to rewind and try again; and this is something the player will have to do a lot even with skill shadows, so it doesn't feel like a huge change.

[mantha16]

I think both of you are overstating how "difficult" levels become without skill shadows. More laborious, yes, but not really more difficult. We were without skill shadows for years and no-one complained or thought of them as a feature we should have;

Not all of us have played for years so I don't think thats relevant.  I didn't like it when I played lix partially because of no skill shadows.  Not having them in NL would spoil my enjoyment of the game so make it optional then everyone has the choice would be my view

[WillLem]

The player should not have to tweak their options to play certain content, and level designers shouldn't have to account for the player's options when designing the level.

That's why I think it should be a hotkey that's accessible at any time rather than a menu option.

Some players might disable the skill shadows, play some content that doesn't really need them, and then forget about the option's existence by the time they encounter a level that requires it.

Not a problem: if players disable Skill Shadows in the first place, it's because they prefer to play with them off. They are likely to be skilled enough to make it through such a level with or without them.

I agree with Proxima that the difficulty of the game without Skill Shadows is being overstated here. Skills Shadows are meant to be an assistive tool, not a required/mandatory feature: if a pack cannot be played without them, then that's the fault of the pack, not the player or the option.

Also, again - this is why I'm suggesting it be implemented as a hotkey, so it's always accessible in-game, even to players who prefer to have the Skill Shadows switched off.

I think a hotkey to disable skill shadows is a bad idea; my reasoning is basically identical to Icho's:

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened.

I'm now saying this for the third time, and I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer:

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

If we were to include a menu option, a hotkey like with Clear Physics to temporarily show them would be useful. But, when they are enabled, the hotkey should do nothing, as for players who don't go out of their way to disable skill shadows in the menu, this behavior is never desirable. The opposite, however, is potentially useful and would deserve a default setting (I'm envisioning this as a hotkey to be held down).

Yes, very much agreed! This is a good idea, and would likely keep everyone happy on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, what I'm suggesting is that Skill Shadows be given the same status/usage as Clear Physics Mode - it's there when you need it, but you can ignore it if you want to. The moment a level requires either of these features in order to be possible, then it's the fault of the design; people have been making that very clear to me since I joined the forums!

[Dullstar]

I think the argument that levels shouldn't require skill shadows was true at one time, but I don't feel that is the case anymore because we have skill shadows. When they weren't a feature at all, you really needed to make sure that skill assignments weren't overly precise. Now that they are present, levels can get away with these precise assignments without it being an issue, because the skill shadows let you see exactly how assigning on a particular frame will play out, so it becomes less about how difficult it is to eyeball where the skill should go and more about how difficult it is to find a skill shadow that does what you want.

[WillLem]

When they weren't a feature at all, you really needed to make sure that skill assignments weren't overly precise. Now that they are present, levels can get away with these precise assignments without it being an issue

In a recent discussion about hidden objects, I made the argument that Clear Physics Mode means that hidden stuff is no longer an issue: whilst this may be true, the community still (mostly) considers hidden objects to be a bad design choice; not only does CPM make hidden stuff irrelevant, but having to use it on every level to check for hidden objects isn't something any player wants to do. I've now discontinued the practice of hiding stuff, having been convinced by these discussions that hiding objects is a bad design choice because of CPM, not in spite of it.

The point being that just because a player assist tool makes something easier or less of a problem doesn't mean that levels should contain those elements. Whether Skill Shadows become optional or not, it's still considered bad level design to make overly precise levels - I've been criticised for this a number of times.

So, in the same way that you wouldn't play with Clear Physics Mode permanently enabled just in case you happen upon a level with a hidden exit, Skill Shadows shouldn't be kept permanently enabled just in case you happen upon a level requiring precise skill application.

Skill Shadows are an assistive feature, and for that reason alone ought to be optional.

[namida]

How many of the cases of precision you speak of were ones that skill shadows can directly help with, though? In fact, I recall one of them was argued against specifically because the distance of a fall involved made it impossible to use any kind of assist features to help measure it (although I would maintain that even without that, while it would be less frustrating, the particular case would still not have added anything of value to the level) and thus it ended up becoming either a guessing game, or a matter of "take screenshots and measure externally using an image editor".

[Dullstar]

It's not really the same as CPM and hidden objects: Precise assignments are usually obvious once you've got an idea of what the solution might be, but take a few attempts to get the alignment right (when not using skill shadows).

It's not too difficult to eyeball approximately where a precise assignment needs to go, and once you've got a lemming there, with skill shadows, a few frames of framestepping while hovering over the lemming will find the correct placement pretty quickly. If the level already demands lots of framestepping, it doesn't make things much harder to also have a few semi-precise assignments when skill shadows are available.

From a design perspective, I certainly wouldn't suggest going out of your way to make a precise assignment required, and if the change required to make one less precise is trivial, it's certainly wise. Level designers should be encouraged to use the skill shadows, too, because the reason they help line up precise assignments can also help identify spots where a precise assignment can cause a different result than the one the designer intended. One set-up I've encountered several times is a basher continuing further than expected if it's assigned in juuuust the right spot. It's easy to fix when it happens, but if you don't notice it...

They can also help line up certain types of interactions when the game mechanics themselves demand some degree of precision to make a certain trick work at all.



For example, in the above level (my contest 19 submission, Shimmier Sort), there is a part where

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

in order to reach the top of the level, a climber uses a bomber crater in the left wall as a place to start a platformer, which must line up with the adjacent platform such that it at most one pixel from flush with the bottom edge of the adjacent platform, so that a shimmier can continue across the platform. It also can't be placed one the bottom pixel of the bomber crater, or the shimmier wouldn't be able to get on top. If I could remove the precision without removing the trick, I would, but I wanted to keep the trick and couldn't think of a way to make it less precise. Skill shadows make lining this up much easier.

As I mentioned, if someone turns off the skill shadows early on, by the time they need them, they may forget the option is there, particularly if it's buried away in the hotkeys menu.

[WillLem]

How many of the cases of precision you speak of were ones that skill shadows can directly help with, though?

My point was more that Skill Shadows being able to help with precision isn't a reason to have precision in a level (i.e. whether or not they can directly help with said precision), just like CPM being able to help with hidden objects isn't a reason to have hidden objects in a level.

Also, since CPM is optional (in the sense that you can turn it on and off when needed), so should Skill Shadows be. EDIT: I'd also compare Skill Shadows to the Splat Ruler: both tend to be most useful whilst the game is paused, so accessing them via a Hotkey seems the best way to implement them.

with skill shadows, a few frames of framestepping while hovering over the lemming will find the correct placement pretty quickly
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Level designers should be encouraged to use the skill shadows, too, because the reason they help line up precise assignments can also help identify spots where a precise assignment can cause a different result than the one the designer intended.
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They can also help line up certain types of interactions when the game mechanics themselves demand some degree of precision to make a certain trick work at all.

I agree that Skill Shadows are useful, and time-saving, especially when combined with Framestepping. I also agree that Skill Shadows are remarkably helpful when it comes to finding and preventing backroutes. I also agree that there's no better way to precisely judge an intended trick.

However, I still think the player should have some degree of control over when they're visible, ideally via a Hotkey so they're always accessible in-game.

As I mentioned, if someone turns off the skill shadows early on, by the time they need them, they may forget the option is there, particularly if it's buried away in the hotkeys menu.

I'd have to agree that it would be unfortunate for a player to disable Skill Shadows initially (perhaps because they find them off-putting), and then forget they are still there as an option.

However, if a player is bothered enough by them to turn them off, they likely won't forget about them. They're a very unique, noticeable and gameplay-affecting part of the NeoLemmix platform; I think a more likely scenario would be that a player would turn them off initially, then once they feel more comfortable that they are able to control their experience, they'd probably turn them back on to see what it's like to play with them enabled, then make the choice to either keep them on or switch them off. By this point, they're very unlikely to forget that they exist as an option.

That said, after discussion/consideration I now believe that making Skill Shadows either permanently enabled (default) or hold-to-assign via a Hotkey (like the Splat Ruler) would likely be the best solution to all scenarios, rather than offering the option to turn them off altogether.

[WillLem]

I feel this deserves a separate post: the discussion has brought about what I feel is the best solution to everyone's wishes and concerns, which is this:

Rather than providing the option to permanently disable Skill Shadows, make the F3 menu options thus:

Permanently enabled: Skill Shadows will always function as they do currently, i.e by hovering the cursor over the lemming.
Hotkey-only*: Skill Shadows will only function when hovering the cursor over the lemming and pressing a Hotkey (similar to the Splat Ruler) - if it could also be made so that the Hotkey must be user-assigned, then the player would be less likely to forget about it.

So - to make it clear - there would be no way to turn Skill Shadows OFF, and the Hotkey would function as a hold-to-assign rather than a toggle that can be accidentally pressed.

This would mean that players cannot disable them altogether and then forget about them, and would mean that anyone who'd prefer them to be assignable via Hotkey-only would likely create a Hotkey for them that they'll remember, and then use them whenever they need to.

[namida]

Put a new poll up. Just to be clear: this poll is about what you personally would like to use, not about what you think is an ideal compromise for everyone. A compromise can be figured out later if one is needed.

[WillLem]

If all 5 of these options were possible, I'd mainly use toggle on/off. However, always off but available by holding a hotkey would also be good, and would be more consistent with other player-assist tools such as CPM, splat height ruler and the new projection shadow.

Quick comment regarding the poll, just seems worth mentioning: it appears that option 1 is the most popular at the moment, but this doesn't necessarily indicate that the people who've chosen this wouldn't want the option to turn the Skill Shadows off occasionally. The previous poll suggested that some people would be interested in having this option.

I would likely have Skill Shadows on most of the time as well; this whole topic (and indeed my entire campaign regarding this) has really been about presenting it as optional.

[namida]

Okay, so it looks like to me, most people would prefer the status quo where shadows are simply always on. However, there was interest in having the option previously, so perhaps most of these people haven't voted in the new poll yet? The only vote other than "always on" here goes to having a hotkey to toggle them - if I were to accomodate this, this would in practice mean there's a config menu option, but like with music / sound, it can be toggled with a hotkey. There doesn't seem to be much direct interest in a hold-to-view (or hold-to-hide) hotkey, other than as a general "this would be nice" from someone who wouldn't use it as their primary setup.

I feel I'd need a lower bar of demand to implement this, vs what I'd need for a hold-to-view / hold-to-hide setup. The latter is more work to implement than the former. This doesn't mean a single user is enough for me to do it, but I'm aware there are likely others who just haven't voted yet (based on earlier poll results) so I'm leaving this open for now.

[WillLem]

Am I really the only person who thinks that Skill Shadows should work in the same way as CPM, Splay Height Ruler, Projection Shadows, and basically everything else that's hotkeyed in the Player...?

I thought that there was way more support for the idea of an option than this...

Again though, maybe some of the people who would generally keep Skill Shadows enabled most of the time still would enjoy the option of, well... an option!

[Proxima]

Am I really the only person who thinks that Skill Shadows should work in the same way as CPM, Splat Height Ruler, Projection Shadows, and basically everything else that's hotkeyed in the Player...?

The usage of skill shadows is different from all of these. They are all features I would want to have inactive nearly all the time, so having to press a hotkey when I want them isn't much inconvenience and is better than any alternative. I would hate the inconvenience of having to press a hotkey any time I wanted to see a skill shadow; if they were to be optional, I would want them to be something I turn on or off once per session.

That said, I do agree that the way the poll is set up is rather biased, since it asks only "which would you want most of the time", so those who would like there to be an option (but would still leave skill shadows turned on most of the time) get lumped together with those who don't want an option to exist at all.

[namida]

Am I really the only person who thinks that Skill Shadows should work in the same way as CPM, Splat Height Ruler, Projection Shadows, and basically everything else that's hotkeyed in the Player...?

The usage of skill shadows is different from all of these. They are all features I would want to have inactive nearly all the time, so having to press a hotkey when I want them isn't much inconvenience and is better than any alternative. I would hate the inconvenience of having to press a hotkey any time I wanted to see a skill shadow; if they were to be optional, I would want them to be something I turn on or off once per session.

That said, I do agree that the way the poll is set up is rather biased, since it asks only "which would you want most of the time", so those who would like there to be an option (but would still leave skill shadows turned on most of the time) get lumped together with those who don't want an option to exist at all.

How so? That scenario would fall under the 3rd or 5th option, depending on what their preference is for *how* to turn it off.

I guess it excludes the possibility of "an option exists in the menu, but can't be changed in-game", but I was under the impression that was pretty much considered a bad idea on practical grounds - the user should always have a way to turn it on when in-game, or at least, should have to go out of their way to not have one (I don't particularly care if eg. they've chosen the toggle option, turned it off, then deleted the hotkey).

[WillLem]

The usage of skill shadows is different from all of these. They are all features I would want to have inactive nearly all the time... I would hate the inconvenience of having to press a hotkey any time I wanted to see a skill shadow

Fair enough. Toggle on/off does seem better than the "hold" option, even though I feel it does bring the feature in-line with the other player-assists. I see what you mean though - Skill Shadows are probably used way more than the others.

Having said that - I still sometimes choose to navigate splat drops and trigger areas without using the ruler/CPM. I guess I believe it keeps my eye for the game well-tuned. If Skill Shadows had a similar implementation, players may find their judgement improves as they begin to rely on it (i.e. their judgement) more.

How so? That scenario would fall under the 3rd or 5th option, depending on what their preference is for *how* to turn it off.

Not necessarily. The question is asking what a person's primary choice would be. Even those who'd like to see Skill Shadows be made optional may still continue to keep them on all the time, knowing they can be turned off whenever.

the user should always have a way to turn it on when in-game

Massively agreed.

[Dullstar]

I think the poll results being what they are is because active users are more likely to vote in these polls than inactive users. We've definitely had people express interest in this, but it's usually from users who make a few posts and then we stop hearing from them. WillLem is probably the only one who's expressed interest in the idea who's actually active. Skill shadows appear to be quite popular with the most active users judging from the posts here.

While the poll technically does ask what you would primarily use (and not whether or not you'd ever use the other options), from the people who've posted I don't find it likely that this is a significant source of bias in the poll - there haven't been many posters who seem to both want to use skill shadows most of the time, but are also interested in the ability to turn them off sometimes. It seems that most of the people who are interested in the option to turn them off find them visually distracting, which is why they'd be interested in disabling them sometimes, while players who find them very helpful probably don't find them distracting even when they're not technically needed and thus wouldn't bother turning them off in these situations.

[WillLem]

We've definitely had people express interest in this, but it's usually from users who make a few posts and then we stop hearing from them

Yes, exactly. Skill Shadows are a very visually intrusive feature and can be off-putting; it certainly delayed my eventual transition from using SuperLemmini to NeoLemmix as my go-to Lemmings playing engine. It's possible that other users who initially dislike the Skill Shadows realise there isn't an option to turn them off, suggest there should be, but ultimately lose interest and go elsewhere.

I'm all about inclusion, and it seems to me that giving players the option to toggle Skill Shadows encourages more newcomers to get used to NL at their own pace - as I've said, it's possible that most newcomers will start by turning them off to get the more familiar experience, give them a try, and eventually realise they prefer to have them on all the time.

Personally, I think Skill Shadows are great and I certainly recognise their benefits, but it would be nice to occasionally turn them off so that I can rely on my own judgement once in a while.

Ultimately, those who simply put up with the Skill Shadows in spite of finding them distracting will finally have a way to manage this for their own gameplay experience, which is an important thing to offer players both for reasons of preference and accessibility.

[WillLem]

Ooh, look! A couple more people have voted for a toggle!

[namida]

Okay so - it looks like there's no demand for a press-and-hold. That's awesome - that would have been the most annoying to implement.

Presuming there's no "gotchas" that make this harder to implement than expected, I think this should be fairly reasonable to implement.

As for the finer details - one way to go about this would be that there's a config menu option to turn them on and off, which can also be toggled in-game via a hotkey that the user can configure. Regarding "what if the user has no hotkey configured and turns it off" - there are two options I can see here. Option 1 is "it's their problem" - you'd have to pretty much go out of your way to end up in such a situation, not sure it's worthwhile trying to fight it. Option 2 is "disallow turning shadows off unless a hotkey to turn them back on is configured".

Another possible implementation is that only a hotkey exists. Disabling shadows does not carry over between sessions (or perhaps - not between levels?), and can only be done via the hotkey. This system would actually be easier to implement than the above, and makes it virtually impossible to be stuck without shadows (especially if it resets between levels), but could be considered less user-friendly.

A seperate question is, should they be always shown regardless of setting when in Clear Physics Mode?

Goes without saying - projection shadows will be shown regardless of setting. They only show in the first place if you press a hotkey, so it can be assumed the user does not want them hidden.

[Dullstar]

While I understand the desire to avoid excessive config menu options, it's probably the most sensible place to put the option. If I wanted to the option for some reason it'd certainly be the first place I'd look.

[Proxima]

Yes, an option in the menu is the most sensible place, and then respect the player's choice -- otherwise what's the point of giving them a choice at all?

[IchoTolot]

If this is going to happen then I think a checkbox in the opition menu is the way to go as well.

[WillLem]

+1 for F3 menu checkbox option, and +1 for this being toggleable in-game.

I still think the best way around "what if someone toggles them off by mistake" is: simply make it so that there is no default hotkey initially - it must be configured by the user.

There are a lot of options that don't have default hotkeys, there seems to be no reason this couldn't be another.

[namida]

Okay - so, most people are interested in having a hotkey, unless they aren't interested in the feature at all, it seems.

Final poll is up now. While this isn't necesserially a matter of "whatever result wins goes" (after all, it's a "what would you do?" poll, not a "what should NeoLemmix do?" one), I will make the final yes/no decision on this feature based on the results of this poll. Should that be "yes", it will be in the form of a hotkey + a menu option, and unless there is strong objection from people who are interested in turning shadows off in the first place, shadows will show when in clear physics mode regardless of whether they're otherwise enabled or not.

[namida]

Okay, I'm convinced there's enough demand to justify this feature, so confirm that it'll be implemented for V12.10.X (assuming no major obstacles to implementing it, of course).

[namida]

Commit 3e61a38 implements the feature itself (but not yet a menu or hotkey option to toggle it on and off, so right now the setting can only be changed via the INI file - this does not mean "an option won't exist", just "I haven't got that far yet").

As I've previously put forward - the exact workings are:
- If the option is on, most shadows will be hidden, but,
- Projection shadow will always be shown. Reason: The player must specifically hold a hotkey for these shadows to appear. If they are pressing that key, it is safe to assume they want to see the projection shadow regardless of their overall shadow setting.
- Shadows will be shown in clear physics mode. Reason: They help make the physics more clear, it would not make sense to hide them there.

I am open to changing (but not making a further option for) the clear physics mode thing if the people who'd use the "turn shadows off" feature in the first place mostly feel they'd rather it extend even to CPM.

EDIT: Commit 96afefb implements a config menu option. Up next, hotkey.

[namida]

As of commit f9a1058, this feature is now fully implemented.