Author Topic: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations  (Read 4551 times)

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Offline Flopsy

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[Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« on: January 11, 2020, 11:47:36 AM »
I'm wondering if there is a way to limit the usage of the shimmier like how a platformer is limited.

I just feel the shimmier is almost as broken as a walker when it comes to back routing levels.

1. It can stop bashers, miners, diggers, fencers, builders, platformers etc by jumping up in the air and obviously the actual shimmier animation will not be very useful in these instances. This is pretty much identical to what a walker does.

2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

3. I'm not even sure if this is supposed to be intended behaviour but a climber can become a shimmier before if hits its head on the ceiling, just want to clarify this also.

I would like there to be a check if there is a ceiling above the lemming when assigned a shimmier otherwise the shimmier cannot be assigned. It probably won't prevent number 1 from occurring but I know there will be more strange instances like number 2 otherwise.

I don't think the shimmier helps with level stability and keeping back routes at bay because people are simply using it as a jumping up in the air action and nothing else. It's surprisingly stronger than people think I feel.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2020, 01:14:14 PM »
I must say, I am against this limitation.

Limiting the use of a skill severely several months after it's release instead of slight expansions to it's usefulness is also quite a shot in the back for a bunch of content created in the meantime relying on the bahaviors, even if I am personally not affected yet.

Just backroute potential is not a convincing argument for me personally as well. I rather have a more versitile skill like the walker as one that goes more into disarmer territory with it's limitations.

I rather be a bit more careful when designing levels with it and fix a few more backroutes.

Quote
2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

3. I'm not even sure if this is supposed to be intended behaviour but a climber can become a shimmier before if hits its head on the ceiling, just want to clarify this also.

Point 2 and 3 were intended behaviors that should make the skill more interesting - especially point 3 as it was also present in L2. They were discussed in topics as well.
Links:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4079.0
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4000.0

Quote
1. It can stop bashers, miners, diggers, fencers, builders, platformers etc by jumping up in the air and obviously the actual shimmier animation will not be very useful in these instances. This is pretty much identical to what a walker does.

This is the point that holds up the most in my opinion. I am not for this change as I already stated, but canceling skills is the behavior I would limit first if I had to limit something.

The height gain used in point 2 and 3 is unique to the shimmier. the canceling from point 1 is shared with the walker.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 01:42:01 PM »
I agree with Icho, although I wanted to add something quickly.

I am sure I remember that there was a discussion specifically about the shimmier/glider interaction. Neither of Icho's links contains this. It would be useful for this topic if it could be found. (I've tried using the search feature, entering "shimmier glider" in the search box, but it hasn't located the topic I was looking for.)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 01:57:50 PM »
Quote
I am sure I remember that there was a discussion specifically about the shimmier/glider interaction. Neither of Icho's links contains this. It would be useful for this topic if it could be found. (I've tried using the search feature, entering "shimmier glider" in the search box, but it hasn't located the topic I was looking for.)

Bits from the 2nd topic:

Quote
Strato:
5) Will it be possible to (ab-)use the Shimmier merely for height gain, for example to get above an updraft and then assign a Glider?

Nepster:
5) This will most likely be a side-effect of how the reaching mechanics will be implemented.

Strato
The most important takeaway for me here is that I significantly overestimated the vertical reach of the Shimmier, and that I should really think of it more as "reaching" than jumping (after all, the jumper needs to have enough own dedicated purposes once it gets introduced later on, right? :D ).

Nepster:
Exactly!

There might be another topic though. These were just the 2 main ones I remembered.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2020, 02:05:14 PM »

Offline namida

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2020, 06:38:46 PM »
Yes, those are all intended behaviours. Another edge case, which I specifically checked with Nepster that it was intentional that this was possible. Spoiler tagged just to be safe.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Keep in mind that using a Shimmier in these ways is a tradeoff - if you do so, you can no longer use that Shimmier skill to actually shimmy.

But ultimately, I feel this is no more extreme than any other case of using a skill for its less-significant effects instead of its main one - for example, using a blocker to stop the individual lemming from moving, rather than to turn other lemmings around (like in certain solutions to Mayhem 13), or using a builder to delay a lemming rather than to actually build up to / over something. Some skills are more prone to causing backroutes than others (the Walker as you say, and others that particularly come to mind here are the Stoner and Builder, or in L3D's case, the Turner).
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Offline Flopsy

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2020, 02:00:58 AM »
Each to their own I suppose but I don't really agree with not doing anything about it.

If people are really going to exploit the jumping animation to make messy solutions or back routes then just let them get on with it. At least I spoke up about this.

It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

Offline Crane

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2020, 02:26:34 AM »
I've personally used a couple of tricks with Shimmiers in order to solve some of the original levels with only new tools, and the trick to start a Glider higher up was also used as a pretty cool speedrunning technique in my solving contest level, "Last Lemming Standing".

As for the Shimmier not being able to cancel skills, I would feel that this is unexpected behaviour, since all other non-permanent skills will cancel the current skill to my knowledge (as long as it's not the same skill, while the Cloner just clones).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2020, 02:56:10 AM »
It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

In my opinion the NL platformer is badly designed compared to the Lix one, but it's been around for too long to change how it works now.

As Crane said, it's consistent across the board that active skills can be assigned at any time, with fairly common-sense exceptions such as that you can't assign most skills during falling. This is good because it means there's always feedback -- it would be confusing for a new player if trying to assign skills often resulted in no action. It also gives a lot more options to both the designer and the player. Imagine if the walker was the only skill you could assign to cancel another mid-skill; the designer would often have no choice but to provide several walkers, which would be heavily backroute-prone as they can easily be moved around to other places in the solution.

It's true that the shimmier's ability to cancel can also be used for backrouting, but I think allowing it is by far the lesser of two evils, even disregarding the effect on existing content.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 04:15:43 AM by Proxima »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2020, 11:13:52 AM »
Quote
In my opinion the NL platformer is badly designed compared to the Lix one, but it's been around for too long to change how it works now.

I think the opposite way here. The NL platformer is the only platformer that is totally consequent about being horizontal with no height gain at all. The limitation is a requirement to ensure this as if there is no height gain it needs to be placed at ground level and a platformer assigned on a horizontal ground would then only build steps into the ground with no effect.
Therefore I think the NL platforer is the best designed one, but I remember this exact conversation being held before anyway.

But well, as we can see in this and other topics there is and will never be a 100% agreement over how the things are handled.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2020, 11:44:31 AM »
I think the opposite way here. The NL platformer is the only platformer that is totally consequent about being horizontal with no height gain at all.

Sure, but you haven't said why you think this is a good thing :P I like the height gain because it's another useful tool in the designer's and player's arsenal, while not being too exploitable as it would take a lot of platformers (which usually you won't have) to get up somewhere you shouldn't be.

I don't mind that we don't agree on this; I'm just curious as to your reasoning.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2020, 12:06:05 PM »
I simply think a platformer should go purely horizontal and not vertical, as then the builder can more easily replace it.

Also, it's very handful to have a skill from a designer's point of view that doesn not gain any height and just width. We've got stackers for pure height, platformers for pure width and builders for the middle ground. These 3 skills complement each other therefore and designers can exacty choose which to provide.

It's more easy for players in my opinion as well as there are no cases where you fiddle with platformers to gain height. They can count on the 3 skill triangle explained before: Pure height, pure width, diagonal.

Platformers gaining height is inconsequential here in my opinion.

Also my experience from Lix is that the height gain is very exploitable and I used it quite a bit to gain acess to unintended routes.


Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2020, 02:35:56 PM »
I'm a little late to this, but it feels like the level needs to make its intended usage of shimmier more essential to the solution so that it cannot be so easily bypassed.  After all, we are not talking about a mere jump or turn around like a jumper or walker, we are talking about the ability to go along the ceiling to get past things like gaps and traps you would otherwise have to build/bash/disarm/etc. to get past.  How is that if a player used the shimmier elsewhere for a skill cancel, the part that actually requires the essential use of shimmier can then be so easily bypassed?

In other words, seems like generally speaking, the shimmier should be less backroute-proned compared to a skill like walker.  If the player "wasted" a shimmier for skill-canceling or delay purposes, the consequence of then not being able to actually shimmy across a ceiling somewhere as intended by the solution, should be severe enough to prevent the player from solving the level.  Whereas it seems a bit more difficult to have it like that for a walker.

It is completely unavoidable that if you allow lemmings to attempt to shimmy at basically any time, there will be many more opportunities for player to use the skill for skill-canceling or delay purposes compared to the showcase use, simply because the showcase use requires specific terrain setup in the level to make it useful (or in some cases, even possible at all) to shimmy across a ceiling.  Whereas skill canceling or delaying can pretty much be done anywhere.  So one could consider limiting ability to assign shimmier for the skill-canceling cases (or more accurately, for cases where ceiling is not reachable), although at this point, you will also likely end up breaking many other existing levels that do rely on this behavior.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2020, 02:47:51 PM »
2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

You could probably prevent this by adding a hazard like fire or similar, that is high enough to not disturb walking lemmings but low enough to be hit by any lemming attempt to jump up.  Admittedly, it may look a little ugly, and in some cases may also not be possible to do if the placement interferes with other things in the level.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2020, 11:07:48 PM »
Using the jumps of Shimmiers as parts of solutions is what makes this skill so versatile! :thumbsup:

For example, gaining height for Gliders via Shimmiers was a behaviour discussed long in advance of the introduction of the Shimmier (Anticipated Shimmier Behaviour), followed by an extensive testing phase that yielded no complaints about this behaviour.

As such, I don't see a reason why it should be changed now.
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Offline namida

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2020, 11:25:17 PM »
Quote
It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

FWIW, I feel this is an excellent point and the only reason to keep things the way they are for the Platformer is "because changing that detail now would likely be devastating to existing content in terms of introducing new backroutes, up to and including that some levels would not be possible to adjust for it". I'm quite confident that I would not apply this same restriction if I were creating an entirely new Lemmings clone now that also had a platformer (assuming, of course, that this clone wasn't intended specifically to replicate NeoLemmix).
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2020, 09:29:49 AM »
I'm not so sure this comparison between Shimmier and Platformer holds up:

- The Platformer is not supposed to gain height. However, if it were possible to assign a Platformer while a lemming is walking on completely flat terrain, he would still gain 1 pixel of height. This could potentially be abused.

- The Shimmier, in contrast, is always supposed to gain height. And gaining height has always been used for various purposes, such as getting over an obstacle, breaking a fall etc. The same applies to cancelling skills: Any destructive skill can cancel a creative skill, any creative skill can cancel a destructive skill. In cases such as cancelling Bashers mid-swipe, this can already be done with both Walkers and Builders, so I don't see why the Shimmier would make it more broken. Rather, this is a general feature of NeoLemmix, allowing to time skill assignment in such a precise manner that mid-swipe Basher cancellation can actually become part of the intended solution. In most other Lemmings clones, this would usually be impossible to get right.

The Shimmier lacks two important features in comparison to the Walker that already serve to make it much less broken:
- Shimmiers can't turn lemmings around.
- Shimmiers can't cancel Blockers.


Especially the first of these two restrictions is one I like to build around in my levels: One of the few ways I know to use a Shimmier to turn a lemming around is by making him a Glider as well. Then, you need a wall that does not touch the ground. As a regular Walker, the lemming would continue to walk into the previous direction; however, if you make him a Shimmier, he will fall at the end, bumping against the wall as a Glider, and thus turn around.

As you can see, this requires a comparatively specific terrain shape.
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Offline namida

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2020, 05:44:31 PM »
Quote
- The Platformer is not supposed to gain height. However, if it were possible to assign a Platformer while a lemming is walking on completely flat terrain, he would still gain 1 pixel of height. This could potentially be abused.

Why would he gain 1 pixel of height? Were this assignment allowed (while keeping everything else about the Platformer as-is), he'd try to place a brick, hit terrain, turn around, not actually making any change to the terrain in the process (because every pixel that would've become brick, was already solid). No different to what currently happens if a platformer runs into terrain on the 2nd or 3rd or Xth brick; the only difference would be it can happen on the 1st brick too.

(In fact - it can already happen on the 1st brick, it's just really finnicky to set up. You have to have empty space when assigning the skill, that gets filled in between the assignment and the 1st brick being placed. I'm not aware of any level that requires this.)
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2020, 06:49:32 PM »
I think what Strato meant was "if the platformer is more like Lix's or Lemming 2's", where the placement of the platform is always above the ground level.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2020, 08:50:29 PM »
Exactly - that would require the Platformer to always gain exactly 1 pixel in height. L2 Platformers actually gain more than that, IIRC, because the bricks definitely look thicker than Builder bricks. As such, they can comfortable cover up L2 trap triggers (even though those are usually indeed just one pixel in height).
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Online WillLem

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 09:55:00 PM »
It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

Whilst I agree with what everyone's saying about leaving the shimmier as it is (using it to gain height to then start a glider a bit higher is a trick I used a few times in Minim's New Skills Challenge in order to glide safely to a ledge which would otherwise be too high to land on), I totally agree with Flopsy on this point regarding platformers. Specifically, if they could be used in the same way as builders to stop bashers or diggers, there are times in new-skills-only levels where this would prove very useful in the absence of walkers, and it could also be used as a stopping skill which would add height to a digger pit, for instance.

Furthermore, it often seems like a Lemming has to be perfectly on the edge of a drop in order to begin platforming, which seems like a limitation of the skill. Maybe if this particular aspect of it was a touch more forgiving...?

I completely see that platforming into the floor is completely useless, but if it were at least possible, then the skill could be a) used to stop other skills such as basher or digger, and b) be started earlier than the very edge; I remember various times during Minim's challenge where I was on the edge of a drop and it seemed like I'd be able to platform off it, but then for some reason it wasn't possible and the Lemming fell off the edge. I can't remember specifically where this occurred, but I just remember it happening a few times and often needing to stack a couple of times so that I could platform from the stack.

Of course, I'm not sure what the implications of this would be for existing levels, but it could make the platformer that bit more useful.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM »
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Of course, I'm not sure what the implications of this would be for existing levels, but it could make the platformer that bit more useful.

It's definitly too late for that kind of a change now. As namida stated if the skill would just be introduced now it would be good to discuss.

Now a large portion of levels with platformers would just outright break, with a large number possibly being unfixable as the every platformer could just be used as a walker at anytime -- that would also be the reason I would be against such a change even in a new engine as the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 11:04:07 PM »
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 11:14:12 PM »
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

I would still simply say leave it as it be. The sideffects can still be quite large and unpredictable and the skill is already implemented for so long that just a ton of stuff is relying on exactly this implementation.
At some point further tinkering other than straight up bug fixing does just more harm than good and in this case the gain is rather small.

That's also why newer skills always had these huge topics where we discuss the exact implementation, then a experimental comes where the skill is still being changed and only after that an actual release happens. Then the behavior is considered stable so that actual content can rely on it.

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 11:38:40 PM »
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

I would still simply say leave it as it be. The sideffects can still be quite large and unpredictable and the skill is already implemented for so long that just a ton of stuff is relying on exactly this implementation.
At some point further tinkering other than straight up bug fixing does just more harm than good and in this case the gain is rather small.

That's also why newer skills always had these huge topics where we discuss the exact implementation, then a experimental comes where the skill is still being changed and only after that an actual release happens. Then the behavior is considered stable so that actual content can rely on it.

Good shout 8-)

For what it's worth, I love both the shimmier and the platformer. They're ace skills!

Offline mobius

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2020, 01:45:41 AM »
I believe in the beginning (before shimmiers were created in NL) I stated a possible suggestion that if there is no acceptable terrain above them for shimmying, they don't jump or take any action at all (like trying to mine on steel). I stand by this.
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Offline namida

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Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2020, 04:06:37 AM »
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

The same rule applies there as anywhere else - the platformer can only be assigned if at least one pixel of the initial brick's coverage, is currently non-solid.

However - any skill assignment that fails, NL memorizes it for about half a second (game-time) and if during that time it becomes possible to assign it, NL does so (unless it would conflict with another skill assignment - in which case the existing assignment has priority, but the memorized one will still try again on the next frame - or another skill is assigned to the same lemming, which would cancel the memorized assignment altogether). This should kick in with any platformer assigned too early near an edge.
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