Author Topic: [NL] Lemmings 100% Challenge (ANY SKILLS!) [PACK INCLUDED]  (Read 962 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[NL] Lemmings 100% Challenge (ANY SKILLS!) [PACK INCLUDED]
« on: December 12, 2019, 10:45:52 pm »
Hi everyone :lemcat:

This challenge aims to find out what the fewest number of skills and minimum time is required to save 100% of Lemmings in any pack available on NeoLemmix. Both the Original and the NeoLemmix skills are permitted in this challenge!

All results will be posted in the OP.

The criteria will be thus, in order of importance:

1) All Lemmings must be saved (including any Cloners - see criteria #4), with no losses
2) Quantity of each skill must be minimised (for example, if a level requires 2 downwardly-destructive skills, it would be better to use 1 miner and 1 digger than, say, 2 miners)
3) Quantity of skills themselves must be minimised, challengers can choose any skills they wish from the entire NeoLemmix skill catalog, up to a maximum of 10 per level in any combination necessary.
4) To keep things as simple as possible regarding Cloners, the save requirement for the level will be raised by 1 for each Cloner created, meaning that the maximum possible saves will always equal 100%. This essentially means that the actual number of Lemmings saved is irrelevant, and the maximum number of skills used must therefore always be greater than or equal to the number of Cloners used within the solution.
5) The shortest possible time to facilitate all of the above criteria must be achieved.

So, for example - with the above criteria, a score of 1 of each, 5 skills used is better than 2 of each, 4 skills used, assuming that the time taken has been minimised in both cases.

The modified level pack plus my solution replays are attached below. Please note that I will update this pack as I go along - at the moment, it only includes the Fun & Tricky ranks. Improvements will be posted in blue.

It's likely I'll do this intermittently over the course of the next few weeks/months, so feel free to get involved and post your scores here!

Lemmings

Fun

1   Just Dig! - 1 of each, 1 skill, 00:23.35
2   Only Floaters Can Survive This - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:22.41
3   Tailor-Made For Blockers - 1 of each, 6 skills, 00:32.35
4   Now Use Miners and Climbers - 1 of each, 2 skills, 00:31.18
5   You Need Bashers This Time - 1 of each, 6 skills, 01:34.59
6   A Task For Bombers - 1 of each, 2 skills, 00:22.29
7   Builders Will Help You Here - 1 of each, 2 skills, 01:07.47
8   Not As Complicated As It Looks - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:31.12
9   As Long As You Try Your Best - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:33.71
10   Smile If You Love Lemmings - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:20.88
11   Keep Your Hair on Mr. Lemming - 1 of each, 4 skills, 00:58.59
12   Patience - 1 of each, 4 skills, 00:37.76
13   We All Fall Down - 1 of each, 1 skill, 00:48.24
14   Origins and Lemmings - 2 of each, 3 skills, 01:53.18
15   Don't Let Your Eyes Deceive You - 3 of each, 5 skills, 02:20.65
16   Don't Do Anything Too Hasty - 5 of each, 4 skills, 01:25.65
17   Easy When You Know How - 1 of each, 7 skills, 00:49.88
18   Let's Block and Blow - 1 of each, 3 skills, 01:06.35
19   Take Good Care of my Lemmings - 3 of each, 4 skills, 01:43.12
20   We Are Now At LEMCON ONE - 3 of each, 7 skills, 01:40.59
21   You Live and Lem - 1 of each, 3 skills, 01:37.88
22   A Beast of a Level - 1 of each, 7 skills, 02:49.53
23   I've Lost That Lemming Feeling - 2 of each, 5 skills, 02:11.82
24   Konbanwa Lemming San - 1 of each, 4 skills, 00:51.94
25   Lemmings Lemmings Everywhere - 1 of each, 6 skills, 00:41.18
26   Nightmare on Lem street - 1 of each, 5 skills, 00:43.18
27   Let's Be Careful Out There - 1 of each, 6 skills, 00:45.00
28   If Only They Could Fly - 4 of each, 5 skills, 01:57.94
29   Worra Lorra Lemmings - 3 of each, 7 skills, 02:16.29
30   Lock Up Your Lemmings - 1 of each, 2 skills, 00:28.24

Tricky

1   This Should Be A Doddle! - 1 of each, 4 skills, 01:12.18
2   We All Fall Down - 1 of each, 1 skill, 00:52.94
3   A Ladder Would Be Handy - 1 of each, 6 skills, 02:03.82
4   Here's One I Prepared Earlier - 2 of each, 7 skills, 01:48.94
5   Careless Clicking Costs Lives - 2 of each, 5 skills, 01:39.82
6   Lemmingology - 2 of each   7 skills, 01:09.65
7   Been There, Seen It, Done It - 4 of each, 5 skills, 01:40.65
8   Lemming Sanctuary in Sight - 8 of each, 4 skills, 03:41.82
9   They Just Keep On Coming - 2 of each, 5 skills, 01:64.55
10   There's A Lot of Them About - 4 of each, 6 skills, 01:21.88
11   Lemmings in the Attic - 3 of each, 3 skills, 02:12.18
12   Bitter Lemming - 1 of each, 9 skills, 01:00.47
13   Lemming Drops - 2 of each, 8 skills, 01:21.82
14   MENACING!! - 3 of each, 7 skills, 02:59.06
15   Ozone Friendly Lemmings - Same result as Fun 1
16   Luvly Jubly - Same result as Fun 5   
17   Diet Lemmingaid - Same result as Fun 6
18   It's Lemmingentry, Watson - Same result as Fun 2
19   Postcard From Lemmingland - Same result as Fun 7
20   One Way Digging to Freedom - 1 of each, 6 skills, 01:18.24
21   All The 6's…... - 2 of each   6 skills, 01:05.29
22   Turn Around, Young Lemmings! - Same result as Fun 8
23   From The Boundary Line - Same result as Fun 12
24   Tightrope City - 2 of each, 3 skills, 00:55.76
25   Cascade - 2 of each, 7 skills, 01:29.59
26   I Have A Cunning Plan - Same result as Fun 9
27   The Island of the Wicker People - 2 of each, 7 skills, 01:57.82
28   Lost Something? - 1 of each, 5 skills, 01:11.24
29   Rainbow Island - 1 of each, 10 skills, 02:15.41
30   The Crankshaft - Same result as Fun 14

Taxing

1   If At First You Don't Succeed... - Same result as Fun 15
2   Watch Out, There's Traps About - 3 of each, 6 skills, 01:12.88
3   Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!!) - Same result as Fun 16   
4   Lend A Helping Hand - 4 of each, 5 skills, 01:57.65
5   The Prison! - 5 of each, 5 skills, 01:49.71
6   Compression Method 1 - Same result as Fun 17
7   Every Lemming For Himself - Same result as Tricky 4
8   The Art Gallery - Same result as Tricky 5
9   Perseverance - Same result as Fun 10
10   Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy - Same result as Tricky 6
11   The Ascending Pillar Scenario - Same result as Tricky 7
12   Livin' On The Edge - 3 of each, 5 skills, 01:34.35
13   Upsidedown World - 2 of each, 5 skills, 02:53.18
14   Hunt The Nessy.... - 8 of each, 5 skills, 03:54.71
15   What An AWESOME Level - 3 of each, 5 skills, 02:30.00
16   Mary Poppins' Land - 4 of each, 7 skills, 01:46.71
17   X Marks The Spot - Same result as Fun 23
18   Tribute To M.C. Escher - Same result as Fun 11
19   Bomboozal - Same result as Fun 18
20   Walk The Web Rope - 2 of each, 5 skills, 01:41.47
21   Feel The Heat! - 1 of each, 4 skills, 00:56.12
22   Come On Over To My Place - Same result as Fun 27
23   King Of The Castle - Same result as Tricky 8
24   Take A Running Jump..... - 1 of each, 7 skills, 01:20.53
25   Follow The Leader - Same result as Fun 19
26   Triple Trouble - 5 of each, 6 skills, 01:25.88
27   Call In The Bomb Squad - 2 of each, 6 skills, 00:43.35
28   POOR WEE CREATURES! - 2 of each, 8 skills, 01:15.29
29   How Do I Dig Up The Way? - 1 of each, 7 skills, 01:57.59
30   We All Fall Down - 1 of each, 1 skill, 00:57.65

Mayhem

1   Steel Works - 8 of each, 7 skills, 03:43.76
2   The Boiler Room - 2 of each, 9 skills, 01:43.82
3   It's Hero Time! - Same result as Fun 24
4   The Crossroads - Same result as Fun 25
5   Down, Along, Up. In That Order - Same result as Fun 28
6   One Way Or Another - Same result as Tricky 9
7   Poles Apart - 3 of each, 7 skills, 01:45.71
8   Last One Out Is A Rotten Egg! - 2 of each, 7 skills, 01:49.29
9   Curse Of The Pharaohs - Same result as Fun 29   
10   Pillars Of Hercules - 2 of each, 9 skills, 01:09.24
11   We All Fall Down - 1 of each, 1 skill, 01:02.35
12   The Far Side - 3 of each, 8 skills, 02:45.94
13   The Great Lemming Caper - Same result as Fun 26
14   Pea Soup - 1 of each, 3 skills, 01:22.88
15   The Fast Food Kitchen - Same result as Tricky 10
16   Just a Minute... - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:36.00
17   Stepping Stones - 3 of each, 6 skills, 02:41.35
18   And Then There Were Four - 4 of each, 10 skills, 01:45.18
19   Time To Get Up - Same result as Tricky 11
20   No Added Colours Or Lemmings - 1 of each, 3 skills, 00:33.94
21   With A Twist Of Lemming Please - Same result as Tricky 12
22   A Beast II Of A Level - 3 of each, 7 skills, 02:26.94
23   Going Up....... - 2 of each, 7 skills, 02;56.29
24   All Or Nothing - Same result as Fun 30
25   Have a Nice Day! - Same result as Tricky 13
26   The Steel Mines Of Kessel - Same result as Fun 21
27   Just a Minute (Part Two) - Same result as Mayhem 16
28   Mind The Step - 3 of each, 8 skills, 02:54.76
29   Save Me - 3 of each, 6 skills, 02:21.53
30   Rendezvous At The Mountain - 4 of each, 10 skills, 05:11.41

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix Challenge] Maximum saves on all Original/Oh No! Levels
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 11:17:22 pm »
No, this hasn't been done before. Most challenges stick with the level's original skillset, although we did do "Non-100% levels: How many more skills needed for 100%?" which is somewhat similar in spirit to this one. But that was for DOS Lemmings; using NeoLemmix obviously opens the door to the new skills as well.

Why the maximum of 8 skill types, though? With NL now allowing up to 10 skill types on a level, this is an arbitrary restriction that would be better removed -- if the situation arises, then 1 of each, 9 skill types is surely better than 2 of each, 8 types.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [NeoLemmix Challenge] Maximum saves on all Original/Oh No! Levels
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2019, 12:01:22 am »
Interesting.  I kind of like the DOS one Proxima alluded to a little better though, in that in prefers criteria 3 over criteria 2.  That one was basically designed specifically to see how little you have to change from the original skillset to make the level 100%.  This one here you defined for NeoLemmix, with criteria 2 preferred over 3, is more like the challenge Minim is doing.  I might just bring up the results for "prefer 3 over 2" in addition to what you are counting.

I would also further clarify (based on my reading of your rules) that 100% means truly saving everyone who ever come out of an entrance plus all the clones that got created during the solution, or in other words, "lose 0" like what it means in Minim's challenge.  In other words, you can't just use cloners to make up for any losses.

One further thing to call out is that because it's NeoLemmix, some levels that were 100% on DOS Lemmings by virtue of glitches will no longer be the case on NeoLemmix.  Even the ones that weren't 100% on DOS sometimes have glitch solutions, that allow saving more than you could on NeoLemmix with same original skillset.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix Challenge] Maximum saves on all Original/Oh No! Levels
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 12:19:25 am »
Why the maximum of 8 skill types, though?

I mainly decided on this because the original games are 8 skills; I'm open to discussion on this though. However, since limiting the number of skills used is one of the criteria anyway, then it may turn out to be a moot point.

This one here you defined for NeoLemmix, with criteria 2 preferred over 3, is more like the challenge Minim is doing.  I might just bring up the results for "prefer 3 over 2" in addition to what you are counting.

I think that using less of each skill is generally more of a challenge than using less skills. For example - a level that's solvable with 20 builders may require a more considered solution if limited to, say, 10 builders and 10 platformers. That's the reason I've ordered it this way. Again though, open to discussion on it; I'm also happy for people to interpret the challenge as they wish, as long as they specify this in their results post.

I would also further clarify (based on my reading of your rules) that 100% means truly saving everyone who ever come out of an entrance plus all the clones that got created during the solution, or in other words, "lose 0" like what it means in Minim's challenge.  In other words, you can't just use cloners to make up for any losses.

Good shout, I've updated the OP accordingly.

One further thing to call out is that because it's NeoLemmix, some levels that were 100% on DOS Lemmings by virtue of glitches will no longer be the case on NeoLemmix.  Even the ones that weren't 100% on DOS sometimes have glitch solutions, that allow saving more than you could on NeoLemmix with same original skillset.

Yes - this challenge is a no-glitch zone! The focus should be on creating a solution using the best possible combination of skills you can. Glitches, whilst I admire their slightly rebellious inventiveness, basically exploit the weaknesses of the game engine and bypass the actual puzzle, which kind of misses the point of this exercise anyway.

The one thing that's absolutely not negotiable is that a silly joke must be included when posting results. :thumbsup:

Thank you,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline Minim

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Re: [NeoLemmix Challenge] Maximum saves on all Original/Oh No! Levels
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 09:32:56 am »
With this challenge being too similar to a few past threads but allowing permission of both sets of skills, the only level I'm really interested in doing is Crazy 11, the only level still impossible to get 100% with unlimited DOS skills. (Or to put it another way, prove that this level is impossible using several different replays :sick:) I agree with Proxima that using 10 different choices of skills is better than 8, because with a level as mentally exhausting as Crazy 11, you might need this wide range to make a solution possible. Plus, along with Wild 8, you have already proved that all levels are doable with 0 losses with new skills. As far as it stands this is only going to be a records breaking thread.

My first attempt to get across the long gap (193 pixels long by 103 high to be exact) with 100% is to set the rate to 99, let everyone glide down to the edge of the starting platform and start building on the rightmost pixel of each step. Unfortunately with this method I ran into an invisible stumbling block. Every glider takes 6 frames and every speed builder is assigned every 11 frames. At frame 109 the two skills clash, ruining my method really early. With every speed builder creating 5 pixels across I'm hoping that within the 1020 frame limit that these lemmings will at least make it across a 193 pixel gap using just builders.

Frame No. of first 4 glider assignments
91
97
103
109

Frame No. of first 4 builder assignments
109
120
131
142
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix Challenge] Maximum saves on all Original/Oh No! Levels
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 12:38:28 am »
With this challenge being too similar to a few past threads but allowing permission of both sets of skills, the only level I'm really interested in doing is Crazy 11, the only level still impossible to get 100% with unlimited DOS skills.

I have now edited the challenge to include minimum time, allowing for levels such as this one to include an infinite timer, the objective being to minimise the time and skills used to save all.

So far, with this criteria, I have achieved the following record:

Crazy 11 No Problemming! - 100% saved, 40 of each, 7 skills used, 1:59 (replay attached)

Offline WillLem

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[NeoLemmix] 100% saves, fewest skills, minimum time (any level pack) [UPDATED]
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2020, 02:56:56 am »
Level pack, results & replays now included above.

If you improve upon any of these scores, please specify which skills were used (if different) so that I can update the pack accordingly.

Enjoy the challenge! :lemcat:

Offline Minim

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Re: [NeoLemmix] 100% saves, fewest skills, minimum time (any level pack)
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2020, 04:23:03 pm »
Ok then. I've done all the unique Mayhem levels for you, but decided not to go over the repeats.

Inside my replays folder contains all the numbers you need at the end of the replay's name: The first number is the quantity per skill, the second is how many different types of skills used, and the last 5 numbers (Because every Original Lemmings level is up to 9 minutes, so I wouldn't need to put 0 every time. ;P) is the time taken to complete the level. The Levels folder is pretty self explanatory. Enjoy the challenges!
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] 100% saves, fewest skills, minimum time (any level pack)
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 06:18:03 pm »
Just my two cents: The original post (and preferably the topic title too) should be modified to make it clear that this challenge does not restrict players to the level's original skillset. The default assumption on the challenges board is that players are restricted to the original skillset (and time limit), unless explicitly stated otherwise.

The current wording of the original post (specifically point #3) sort of implies it, but it isn't completely clear that this is intended - indeed, we've done a challenge like this in the past (fewest different types of skills) that also still restricts players to the original skillset. The topic title has no implication whatsoever that deviations from the level's usual time limit / skillset are allowed.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] 100% saves, fewest skills, minimum time (any level pack)
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2020, 09:15:48 am »
Ok then. I've done all the unique Mayhem levels for you, but decided not to go over the repeats.

Thanks Minim, just finished going through the Mayhem levels myself - I've now compared our results and updated the OP with your improvements.

Watched your replays; there's some great carving and sculpting going on here to find quite a few improvements, and some solutions where we found the same skill amounts and even the same route, but slightly different timings. Here's some comments on some of the levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thanks for your contribution to the challenge, much appreciated! :thumbsup:

Offline Minim

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With 100% as first priority for this challenge, it's still a shame that the bombers and stoners have very little use. Still, I have a possible levelpack to keep this challenge interesting: Lemmings Plus III. This is the first pack to introduce all kinds of new objects, including One-way fields, Down Arrows, Teleporters, Locked Exits/Switches, Splitters, Pre-placed lemmings and Pickup skills; although with them comes a few questions that needs to be raised.

The latter is troublesome and might lead to confusion: How will this challenge work on levels with Pickup skills? For example,  on Timid 6: The Rebound there are two floater Pickup skills. If you're trying to do a 1 of each challenge without floaters on this level, the floater skills will still appear on the playing interface, but on the editor interface, the background for the 0 quantity stays identical, regardless whether pickup skills are in the level or not. Criterion 3 therefore will need to account for all Pickup skills available in the level, while Criterion 2 cannot. If this challenge is completed, should the result still be the skills given at the start of the level "1 of each, x skills, Time" regardless if both floaters have been used or not? I don't know if this is clear enough or not. An expert might want to clarify on the Pickup skills' relation to the challenge.

As for Pre-placed lemmings, I haven't confirmed yet, but they may be a rare scenario of a pre-placed lemming that cannot be saved at all, for example being surrounded by steel with the exit out of reach. Coincidentally, this thread used to be called "Maximum saves". Should we account for any lemmings that cannot be saved on any of these levels, or consider the challenge failed? I highly recommend the former.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline WillLem

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With 100% as first priority for this challenge, it's still a shame that the bombers and stoners have very little use.

I think non-fatal versions of these skills would be excellent. I half-jokingly came up with the Lightsaberer and the Superstacker as ideas for skills to replace Bomber and Stoner respectively but I don't think there's much interest in implementing skills that technically already exist but in fatal versions. From these discussions, I concluded that the nature of Lemmings as a game is that, sometimes, they die; but then, that's what makes 100% challenges interesting!

Still, I have a possible levelpack to keep this challenge interesting: Lemmings Plus III. This is the first pack to introduce all kinds of new objects

Great shout! Let's do this one after ONML.

How will this challenge work on levels with Pickup skills?

All skills count towards the total for the level, including pickup skills. I think this is the simplest way to do it. Since any skills can be put into the editor, this removes the need for pickups anyway. There will undoubtedly be cases where the pickups can be bypassed altogether. If, in the event that the pickups are added to skillset and used, however, I propose that they count towards the total for the level. Open to further discussion on this, though.

As for Pre-placed lemmings, I haven't confirmed yet, but they may be a rare scenario of a pre-placed lemming that cannot be saved at all, for example being surrounded by steel with the exit out of reach...Should we account for any lemmings that cannot be saved on any of these levels, or consider the challenge failed? I highly recommend the former.

Hmmm. An interesting one. I think these ought to be treated the same way as cloners: if they exist in the level, then they simply count towards the 100% if they can be saved. In any case where they cannot possibly be saved, I think it may be best to just delete them from the level during the editing process unless they affect the level in some way (for example, if they activate a switch for a locked exit). Might be worth discussing these cases as and when they arise. As an initial catch-all solution tho: treat them as cloners and save them if possible, or delete them if they can't be saved and don't have any effect on the level.

Thoughts?

Offline namida

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Quote
As for Pre-placed lemmings, I haven't confirmed yet, but they may be a rare scenario of a pre-placed lemming that cannot be saved at all, for example being surrounded by steel with the exit out of reach.

Off the top of my head, Lemmings Plus III has exactly one such level, "Flea Market". There's a main section with an entrance and an exit; and a seperate section, seperated by steel, with two preplaced lemmings and a bunch of pickup skills.

Lemmings Plus IV also has such a level, "Comradical". In this case, it's a matter of a locked exit and one lemming in one section; and all the unlock buttons and another lemming in the other section.

Offline Proxima

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As an initial catch-all solution tho: treat them as cloners and save them if possible, or delete them if they can't be saved and don't have any effect on the level.

Thoughts?

Challenge topics are records of the best that is possible to achieve. Sometimes it turns out you can't achieve a desired result on a given level, and that's okay. If you edit the level to make the result possible, then it isn't a challenge any more.

Offline WillLem

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Challenge topics are records of the best that is possible to achieve. Sometimes it turns out you can't achieve a desired result on a given level, and that's okay. If you edit the level to make the result possible, then it isn't a challenge any more.

Perhaps it's not editing the level to make the result possible though: if it's essentially there as a decoration and doesn't have any bearing on the level's layout, what difference does it make?

Then again, I see your point: the level's designer chose to put in an unsaveable lemming, meaning that it would never be possible to get 100% saves on that level in any situation where pre-placed lemmings are counted as part of the save requirement (which they are, in the case of this challenge).

Also, I love putting stuff in levels just for decoration, so... this is a tough one to decide. Any suggestions anyone?