Author Topic: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (16 Levels) [DEFINITIVE VERSION!]  (Read 1803 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2019, 05:17:37 pm »
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, but I would strongly argue that a big part of the original Lemmings was the frustration involved in trying to pull off a particularly tricky series of mouse clicks!

Yes and exactly that part isn't very liked to say it mildly.

I think that's the core here, we don't try to be like the original. I would even say the original is good but heavily flawed. We tried to reduce the flaws. The original isn't perfect and exactly those parts that got on our nevers we tried to reduce.

Let's say I don't look to the original for good level design except a few exceptions.

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Might I ask you to at least give levels 1, 2 and 7 a look.

Silly 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8 would actually be the levels I would either completely rework or cull from the pack and replace them if I personally was the author. ;)

7, I would call the best from the rank, but still outshined by others in other ranks.

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I've tried to balance a mix of quickly-solvable multitasking puzzles with the patience, concentration and timing required to pull off a large amount of them simultaneously.

Basically I played these levels completely in pause mode and just used the frame step keys to go forwards/backwards. Exactly the simultaneous part kills the fun here, constantly having to rewind when a lem is missed, realising you are 1 builder too short and having to redo the tasks again. Just constantly having to play in frame-step mode is not ideal let's say.

As the tasks are still pretty simple, the puzzle is therefore mostly clear, and let's say if it wasn't your first pack I would have simply said on those few levels: "Alright, I see how it's done, but no way I am going to the chore of executing that".
And that's the thing, playing lemmings should not be a total chore. People rather lean back a bit, make a plan and excute it, without having to torture themselves through the execution.

Also, I think we have a different understanding on timing here. I would say the timing parts on these 3 levels were not really there, at least I haven't gotten a timing feeling. I just simply worked my way through the tasks before me.
Timing is more of a thing when multiple seperate actions come perfectly together unexpected. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordXH-Y3A1U&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlKL_gpsNgZfNTRvt_28AVqf&index=93

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 07:07:03 pm »
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That said, I've always enjoyed Lemmings levels where it's obvious what needs to be done and it's just getting it right... NeoLemmix has pretty much obliterated this style of play from the game, which is a good thing because it's easier on the patience/nerves, but I would strongly argue that a big part of the original Lemmings was the frustration involved in trying to pull off a particularly tricky series of mouse clicks!

Indeed, framestepping and rewinding as well as skill assignment on the pause screen can already destroy these levels... but I think nobody in this thread has outlined to you yet to what extent you're really underestimating the capabilities of NeoLemmix ;) . Maybe because not even everyone in the NeoLemmix community is aware of it.

Let me introduce you to: The Replay Write Feature (hitting "W" on your keyboard will turn the replay icon blue instead of red, so you can add additional skills after rewinding, without interrupting the rest of the replay)

Start watching at 20:14.

Colorful Arty abused the crap out of this while playing my Lemmings World Tour level "I like to move it, move it". Just watch how he tackles one crowd after the other, shamelessly letting the rest of the lemmings die, because he knows he can save them later.

I wasn't aware of this feature until I saw this video. Now you can imagine how I approached the Silly rank. :P

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It's a bit disappointing that you're not going to bother with the Silly levels, and tbh I think dismissing it as a "joke rank" is a tad harsh - these took a lot of careful design work and pixel-precise editing.

I must admit I was close to skipping them, as well - but maybe just because I had played through the first the ranks on one evening, and then decided Silly 1 was too much of a hassle to continue. I then approached the Silly rank in a second session. The main reason for this was Silly 2, which you previewed in this thread with the announcement that it was a 1-minute-level. Even though I usually hate levels with a tight time limit (less so than those that merely add one for original-Lemmings-flavour reasons :D , even though I'd agree with the others by now that such "cosmetic" time limits are rather pointless in the end), the knowledge that it was time-restricted gave me a hint that there might be a puzzle waiting here. And indeed, that was the case!

I actually liked Silly 2, but I can see why IchoTolot doesn't - because it's basically a horizontal adaptation of the "disjoint union" concept. Those are levels with many chambers, usually made of steel so they can't interact with each other, that merely require the proper distribution of skill across many "miniature levels". Your approach simply didn't shrink the levels in the vertical dimension, requiring more horizontal scrolling in exchange.

Other puzzles I really admired a lot were the two "Staircases to nowhere" and "C'mon Ketchup". :thumbsup: All my replays are attached, btw!

There was one particular puzzle which I actually wasn't able to solve ("PoPPing MaD"). Even though it seems so obvious once you see the intended solution. That said, the placement is still very precise here.

If you want to see the extent of the damage it can cause when somebody has found the intended solution and merely can't execute it because of pixel precision, watch Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks for the level "Do not fear".

Since you're currently playing the pack yourself, you'll notice that I have fixed the level in the meantime, it's a lot less pixel-precise now. But I will still feel eternally guilty for the state I had left this level in when Flopsy first played it... :-[ (Big "sorry" again to Flopsy at this point! ;) )

And I say that even though the precision was completely unintended! ;) It didn't occur to me at all that it was so precise. It all came down to a minor difference in the order of which Flopsy and I intuitively assigned Gliders and Cloners.


Overall I'd say the variance between very good advanced puzzles and absolutely atrocious troll levels is larger on this pack than on any other... whether that's a good or a bad thing. :evil:

On the one hand, you've managed to create puzzles that could compete with medium-to-hard packs like Lemmings Migration on your very first attempt! :thumbsup:

On the other hand, you took the multitasking to an even more ridiculous level than I did in Paralems. :devil:

And do you remember how I told you about GigaLems containing troll elements? ;) Well, apparently, you came up with one of the same signature ideas

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

all by yourself.

Again... whether this is a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure... :D


Anyways, I'd agree with namida that this is still a very strong first attempt. The puzzles you've created blow most beginner stuff out of the water, and the "annoying" levels have clearly been created intentionally, i.e. not out of a "lack of skill", but out of a different level design philosophy, which I can respect. ;)

But before you make any further levels of this kind... toy around with the above-mentioned replay write feature a little, and then see whether you really want to put effort into more of such levels. ;) Especially since you said you put so much time into placing them in such a pixel-precise way...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 09:25:50 am by Strato Incendus »
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My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 07:14:20 pm »
but I would strongly argue that a big part of the original Lemmings was the frustration involved in trying to pull off a particularly tricky series of mouse clicks!

There are some levels like that, but I don't think there are quite as many as you think, maybe try making a list and see what falls out.  In fact, I believe a great majority of that kind of levels you may be referring to specifically involve timed bombers.  And those really aren't "tricky" as much as "trial and error until you find the right spot to assign, then memorize (usually based on landmarks in the terrain)".  They are also pretty much not on anyone's lists of highlights of the game, I'm sorry to say.

As far as I can tell, there are really no levels that in particular involve quick reflexes (which tends to be the kind of execution other kinds of games may demand on the player), because you can always pause the game to ease off the pacing of skill assignments.  Especially on the PC versions, pause is always just a keystroke away.  And this is somewhat fundamental to the gameplay, as otherwise some multitasking levels would simply become nearly impossible to execute, given that the disparate groups of lemmings you need to manage may be more than one screen apart.  Perhaps you don't use the pause as much when you played the game, so maybe you were doing things a little bit trickier than strictly necessary?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 07:23:51 pm »
Another thing worth thinking about is, consider forcing yourself to actually go solve each and every level you've created so that there is a replay available for each.  It's not a bad idea anyway in case of catching future updates to the game accidentally breaking a solution, so such problems can be fixed ahead of time of release.  But it should also give you a slightly better idea of what the experience might be like for someone else to play the levels.  In fact, given that you design the level, you are already predisposed to liking them obviously, and you also could already skipped the part of figuring out the solutions.  So if with all that, you still find it a bit tedious to successfully solve your own levels to obtain a replay for each, it's likely that other players will have less patience with the same levels.

Offline Forestidia86

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 09:31:16 pm »

Let me introduce you to: The Replay Write Feature (hitting "W" on your keyboard will turn the replay icon blue instead of red, so you can additional skills after rewinding, without interrupting the rest of the replay)
[...]
Colorful Arty abused the crap out of this while playing my Lemmings World Tour level "I like to move it, move it". Just watch how he tackles one crowd after the other, shamelessly letting the rest of the lemmings die, because he knows he can save them later.

I wasn't aware of this feature until I saw this video. Now you can imagine how I approached the Silly rank. :P

Yeah such a feature is indeed useful for solving such levels that operate with multitasking and many hatches. It's the more elegant way than to just copy replays together by manual edit of the replay.
For fun and out of interest I solved Silly 2 with a mix of both methods. Was an interesting task and less frustrating.
But the method of solving feels a bit hackish.

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2019, 12:28:01 am »
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, but I would strongly argue that a big part of the original Lemmings was the frustration involved in trying to pull off a particularly tricky series of mouse clicks!

Yes and exactly that part isn't very liked to say it mildly.

I think that's the core here, we don't try to be like the original. I would even say the original is good but heavily flawed. We tried to reduce the flaws. The original isn't perfect and exactly those parts that got on our nevers we tried to reduce.

Don't get me wrong - as someone who learned to play Lemmings on an Amiga 500+ back in the day, I find the various tools in NeoLemmix no short of a fantastic marvel! But - it does take something away from Lemmings as it was originally created (I still remember the "we are not responsible for..." tagline. Says it all!). To be fair, you've said that your intention isn't to be close to the original game, but to improve on it and iron out some of the more annoying elements. NeoLemmix succeeds at this, no doubt about that.

By the way, let me take this opportunity to thank you again for your useful feedback - it does help, and although I have fairly strong opinions about various elements of the game, I take your comments with a positive, open mindset. I'm still planning on making some adjustments to the Oh No! Reverse pack when I next have a decent amount of spare time. :thumbsup:

As far as I can tell, there are really no levels that in particular involve quick reflexes (which tends to be the kind of execution other kinds of games may demand on the player), because you can always pause the game to ease off the pacing of skill assignments.  Especially on the PC versions, pause is always just a keystroke away.  And this is somewhat fundamental to the gameplay, as otherwise some multitasking levels would simply become nearly impossible to execute, given that the disparate groups of lemmings you need to manage may be more than one screen apart.  Perhaps you don't use the pause as much when you played the game, so maybe you were doing things a little bit trickier than strictly necessary?

It's probably worth mentioning at this point that I created these levels in 1.43 and playtested them in SuperLemmini (which, I'm sure most of us would agree, is more like the experience of playing the original game than NeoLemmix, for better or worse). So, some of the tasks in these levels are that little bit more difficult to manage. Sure - pause is still there, as is frame-stepping (but only forwards), but terrain-removal masks are absent, as is the blue write/replay feature mentioned by Strato, as well as backwards time-stepping and instant restart/replay. Yes, you can replay in SuperLemmini, but you have to nuke first then restart the level from the beginning. This adds a little bit of urgency to a level attempt, I'd suggest.

And yes - I don't use the pause button unless it's absolutely necessary as I do prefer to assign skills the old-school way. I find it adds to the flow of the game. That said, Silly 1 and 2 are basically impossible to complete without using the pause button, as IchoTolot has quite rightly pointed out.

Another thing worth thinking about is, consider forcing yourself to actually go solve each and every level you've created so that there is a replay available for each.  It's not a bad idea anyway in case of catching future updates to the game accidentally breaking a solution, so such problems can be fixed ahead of time of release.  But it should also give you a slightly better idea of what the experience might be like for someone else to play the levels.  In fact, given that you design the level, you are already predisposed to liking them obviously, and you also could already skipped the part of figuring out the solutions.  So if with all that, you still find it a bit tedious to successfully solve your own levels to obtain a replay for each, it's likely that other players will have less patience with the same levels.

My replays are right there in the pack (I downloaded it just now to make sure) - feel free to watch them. I very much enjoyed using the various NeoLemmix tools to get pixel/timing-perfect solution replays made for these levels (to the extent that, if I wasn't happy with a particular bit of execution I went back and did it again!) ;P

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2019, 01:01:11 am »
Let me introduce you to: The Replay Write Feature (hitting "W" on your keyboard will turn the replay icon blue instead of red, so you can additional skills after rewinding, without interrupting the rest of the replay)

Colorful Arty abused the crap out of this while playing my Lemmings World Tour level "I like to move it, move it". Just watch how he tackles one crowd after the other, shamelessly letting the rest of the lemmings die, because he knows he can save them later.

I wasn't aware of this feature until I saw this video. Now you can imagine how I approached the Silly rank. :P

Yeah such a feature is indeed useful for solving such levels that operate with multitasking and many hatches. It's the more elegant way than to just copy replays together by manual edit of the replay.
For fun and out of interest I solved Silly 2 with a mix of both methods. Was an interesting task and less frustrating.
But the method of solving feels a bit hackish.

I was indeed aware of the blue replay button - as a person obsessed with visuals, I was interested to know why it was sometimes blue and discovered, by chance, that skill assignments I'd already done in a previous replay still took place when the R was blue!

I'd say... yes, it's still worth the joy of making levels with massive amounts of multitasking. If only because it's a way to channel the madness! :D :P

Incidentally, I've given Colorful Arty's video a like. :thumbsup: He's definitely one for the look-first method of solving levels, it would seem.

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It's a bit disappointing that you're not going to bother with the Silly levels, and tbh I think dismissing it as a "joke rank" is a tad harsh - these took a lot of careful design work and pixel-precise editing.

I must admit I was close to skipping them, as well - but maybe just because I had played through the first the ranks on one evening, and then decided Silly 1 was too much of a hassle to continue. I then approached the Silly rank in a second session. The main reason for this was Silly 2, which you previewed in this thread with the announcement that it was a 1-minute-level. Even though I usually hate levels with a tight time limit (less so than those that merely add one for original-Lemmings-flavour reasons :D , even though I'd agree with the others by now that such "cosmetic" time limits are rather pointless in the end), the knowledge that it was time-restricted gave me a hint that there might be a puzzle waiting here. And indeed, that was the case!

Thank you for giving them your time, and for acknowledging the presence of a decent puzzle in this level! I'm glad you enjoyed these levels in spite of their possible being at-odds with what's considered "good" design. I get that scrolling back and forth constantly is a bit annoying, but to be honest I do like a good sprawling level every now and then! Having said that, the vertical-scrolling levels I've seen on NeoLemmix take some getting used to!

Other puzzles I really admired a lot were the two "Staircases to nowhere" and "C'mon Ketchup". :thumbsup: All my replays are attached, btw!

There was one particular puzzle which I actually wasn't able to solve ("PoPPing MaD"). Even though it seems so obvious once you see the intended solution. That said, the placement is still very precise here.

---

Overall I'd say the variance between very good advanced puzzles and absolutely atrocious troll levels is larger on this pack than on any other... whether that's a good or a bad thing. :evil:

On the one hand, you've managed to create puzzles that could compete with medium-to-hard packs like Lemmings Migration on your very first attempt! :thumbsup:

On the other hand, you took the multitasking to an even more ridiculous level than I did in Paralems. :devil:

---

Anyways, I'd agree with namida that this is still a very strong first attempt. The puzzles you've created blow most beginner stuff out of the water, and the "annoying" levels have clearly been created intentionally, i.e. not out of a "lack of skill", but out of a different level design philosophy, which I can respect. ;)

These are very gratifying comments, so thank you for this. :thumbsup: It's good that you've noted that my levels are created from a specific philosophy, differ as it may from the accepted standard on the forum. I created this pack in the best of spirits, and they are intended as levels to be enjoyed as much as to be atrocious and ridiculous! ;P

To address Namida's comment again in this frame of mind:

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the last rank is obviously a joke rank

I guess by calling the rank "Silly", it does betray a certain lack of seriousness. And, to be fair, if the level didn't make me laugh it didn't make it into this category! However, they have been put together in good spirits and with a particular design philosophy in mind, so I stand by these first forays into Lemmings level creation.

And, to be fair, Namida did say that he's looking forward to my next pack. So, :thumbsup:

If you want to see the extent of the damage it can cause when somebody has found the intended solution and merely can't execute it because of pixel precision, watch Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks for the level "Do not fear".

Since you're currently playing the pack yourself, you'll notice that I have fixed the level in the meantime, it's a lot less pixel-precise now. But I will still feel eternally guilty for the state I had left this level in when Flopsy first played it... :-[ (Big "sorry" again to Flopsy at this point! ;) )

And I say that even though the precision was completely unintended! ;) It didn't occur to me at all that it was so precise. It all came down to a minor difference in the order of which Flopsy and I intuitively assigned Gliders and Cloners.

Poor Flopsy! I'm struggling with this level for the same reasons - it still seems impossible to get the timing of this correct tbh... I'll get some replays over when I've made a decent bit of progress through the pack. I'm really enjoying it, I think that these sorts of levels can be fun when they're made carefully (as they clearly have been) 8-) :)

Thanks for posting your replays btw, I'll watch them now and comment in a separate post. 8-)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 02:45:59 am by WillLem »

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2019, 01:36:45 am »
Other puzzles I really admired a lot were the two "Staircases to nowhere" and "C'mon Ketchup". :thumbsup: All my replays are attached, btw!

Thanks again for the replays. Some very creative solutions in here, as well as quite a few cheeky backroutes! ;P I particularly liked your solutions to Clever 2 Take one for the team (everyone so far has found a completely unique solution to this one!), Demanding 5 What the...? (a backroute, but again very unique) and Silly 5 Nightmare on Lem Street II - I like that you used the solution from the original level to good effect here!

Interestingly, the levels you've mentioned as favourites are ones to which you found the intended solution! I think that these are generally the best put-together in that, so far, they've been fairly backroute-proof and offer a decent enough puzzle to be respectable amongst some of the mind benders that are available on this forum.

All of this feedback is extremely useful btw, I'm sure that with the help of you lot my next pack will be much better. In the meantime, though, I'm concentrating on playing through a few people's packs to become more familiar with the mechanics of NeoLemmix and to get some inspiration.

All best and thanks again,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2019, 10:23:53 am »
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I get that scrolling back and forth constantly is a bit annoying, but to be honest I do like a good sprawling level every now and then!

You do? Well, in that case, I'll happily leave the obnoxious execution-difficulty of my Lemmicks level "So much to do, so little time" (all the way up in the Bedlam rank) as it is :evil: , specifically for you to get annoyed by... I mean, for you to enjoy! :thumbsup: And then I'll fix it once you're past that level. :P
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I created this pack in the best of spirits, and they are intended as levels to be enjoyed as much as to be atrocious and ridiculous!

I know, I did the same.

Wizard's Second Rule: The greatest harm can result from the best intentions. ;)
People also say the road to Hell is paved with them...

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Interestingly, the levels you've mentioned as favourites are ones to which you found the intended solution! I think that these are generally the best put-together in that, so far, they've been fairly backroute-proof and offer a decent enough puzzle to be respectable amongst some of the mind benders that are available on this forum.

I'd agree with that; levels which are good at enforcing their intended solution are usually the ones that feel most rewarding to the player, and to a similar extent for every player, as well - because each of them is bound to find the "correct" solution eventually.

Even most new users usually tend to create some of these, i.e. select levels that already happen to be very in line with NeoLemmix philosophy and on-par with existing content specifically created in that spirit.

That's why several users had the idea to create a "Lemmings Redux" (compilation of all the most puzzly original DMA levels) out of the levels of their own packs. That way, you can cherry-pick the most sophisticated puzzles and put them into a single "Best of" pack of substantially higher quality.

Quote
Incidentally, I've given Colorful Arty's video a like. :thumbsup: He's definitely one for the look-first method of solving levels, it would seem.

Not only that, but he's also very entertaining! :D It's always nice to see somebody approaching Lemmings in such an upbeat way. Even when he gets angry at a level (like in the episode after the one you watched :P ), the "lowest point" to which his mood can sink while playing is still comparatively high. In fact, I had the suspicion that many people have stopped playing Lemmings World Tour and simply decided to watch Arty's Let's Play instead :D .

Quote
Thank you for giving them your time, and for acknowledging the presence of a decent puzzle in this level!

Silly 2 actually reminded me of a level from NepsterLems called "Time Out" (Moon 14), as well as "Lots of small tasks" (Moon 10). Time Out is the better level to me, because several lemmings need to work together under a time limit to create the path to the exit, i.e. they interact with each other, whereas "Lots of small tasks" is precisely that "disjoint unions" concept that IchoTolot isn't particularly fond of.

"You have to be kidding me" is kind of in between: The landscape looks more like "Time Out", but the single sections of the level are less interactive, or even prevented from interacting, just by the fire traps rather than by steel, i.e. by "softer" obstacles.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels)
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2019, 09:00:24 pm »
SO!

After much feedback and having seen various sets of replays, I've decided to make a few changes to this pack.

I've swapped a couple of the levels which stood out as being either too easy or too difficult within their ranking, and I've fixed a couple of the backroutes - but only those which I felt missed the point of the level. There are still a fair few levels in here with multiple solutions, and I'm sure you lot will find others anyway!

I've also made a new level for this version of the pack! Demanding 4 - The Crystal Dimension has been completely re-done as a different level to prepare the player for the challenge of Silly 7 - Constellations (which itself has been updated again). It's now much more befitting its rank in term of difficulty, and is a generally more interesting and engaging level:


Demanding 4 - The Crystal Dimension. Much prettier now, and a more interesting solution!

Many thanks to Strato Incendus for playtesting this and helping me to iron out the kinks.

^^^ I've attached the updated pack to the original post ^^^

I would encourage everyone who has played the original pack to give this one a go as well - some of the intended solutions have been enforced, and I think the pack flows better now difficulty-wise.

Thank you all for your kind feedback and comments, this is a great community to be a part of!

All best,

-WillLem 8-)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 02:17:10 pm by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels) [NOW UPDATED!]
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2019, 04:10:46 pm »
I've resolved the levels, except Silly 1 and 2 (Sorry I won't be playing through those 2 again, as they are just unfun in my opinion).

I think I've still found quite a few backroutes. ;)

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels) [DEFINITIVE VERSION!]
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 05:04:11 am »
^^^ Last update for this pack - this is now the definitive version ^^^

I definitely won't be revisiting this again, I'm pretty happy with the final version. To avoid any confusion with regards to previous comments/replays of levels as they were in the original pack, here is a list detailing the reallocation of the levels:

(The italics indicate where each level appeared in the original pack):

Breezy 1 (Clever 1) - There's always one
Breezy 2 (Clever 3) - Come on, KeTcHuP!
Breezy 3 (Clever 2) - The Hazard
Breezy 4 (Clever 7) - Wait a minute...

Clever 1 (Demanding 5) - What the...?
Clever 2 (Demanding 2) - Take one for the team
Clever 3 (Clever 8) - PoPPin' MaD
Clever 4 (Demanding 8) - Staircase to Nowhere

Demanding 1 (Demanding 4) - The Crystal Dimension
Demanding 2 (Demanding 3) - PoPCoRn
Demanding 3 (Demanding 7) - 7th Heaven
Demanding 4 (Demanding 1) - As complicated as it looks

Silly 1 (Silly 1) - Steel Quirks
Silly 2 (Silly 2) - You have to be kidding me...
Silly 3 (Silly 6) - BACKROUTE THIS!
Silly 4 (Silly 7) - Constellations
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 03:18:12 am by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels) [DEFINITIVE VERSION!]
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 09:41:27 am »
You believe this is going to be the final version? :D

Then you probably underestimate the creativity of NeoLemmix player to constantly find new ways to break your levels. ;) And if it's none of us currently present, new forum members probably will.

If you look at the thread for Lemmings United, already the hardest pack out there right now, which has gone through extensive pre-release testing, and yet, IchoTolot is still constantly putting out new updates with backroute fixes... that suggests that no pack is ever really finished. :P
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels) [DEFINITIVE VERSION!]
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 10:17:44 am »
If you look at the thread for Lemmings United, already the hardest pack out there right now, which has gone through extensive pre-release testing, and yet, IchoTolot is still constantly putting out new updates with backroute fixes... that suggests that no pack is ever really finished. :P

Not a great choice of example, then! Of course the hardest pack out there would require much more extensive testing and fixing. And it will have fewer players able to test at the level it demands, so one would expect the backroutes to be found more slowly. It would be better to compare this pack to others on a similar difficulty level.

As a separate issue, it is entirely up to WillLem to decide if he wants to designate this the final version and accept that any backroutes remaining will not be fixed, as namida does for all his packs after a certain amount of time. For one thing, none of us have unlimited time and it's good to set finished projects aside and move onto other things. For another, it's good for players to know they are playing a final version and they don't risk levels they've already solved being changed.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 10:34:00 am by Proxima »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Let's Go! The WillLem Levels (32 Levels) [DEFINITIVE VERSION!]
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 10:54:13 am »
If it's a bad example, it might also be because IchoTolot is very conscientious about fixing his backroutes quickly. ;) Thus, he rather puts out a bunch of new versions every time there's a small fix to be made. This leads to very frequent updates, despite all the testing this pack has gone through. At some point, I stopped updating Lemmings United, and I'm just going to re-download the newest version whenever I get back into it (which will take a while, I should probably try and beat NepsterLems first).

I for one am much more casual about this and prefer to make larger updates, in which I fix e.g. an entire rank worth of levels before I upload the next version.

Usually, the older a pack gets, the less frequently new backroutes are found. This of course is also due to the fact that a lot of people have already played the pack by that point, so there's not as much new input coming in. But even for old packs, like NepsterLems, new players occasionally find backroutes to these as well.

Quote
accept that any backroutes remaining will not be fixed, as namida does for all his packs after a certain amount of time

Interesting. I didn't know namida was doing this. ;)

I've basically only stopped fixing and updating Paralems, but that's a) because I consider it rather low quality by now, and b) because it basically only works in Old Formats anyway. Also, all the movie references in there get somewhat lost without the (copyrighted) soundtrack playing in the background.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels