Author Topic: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels) [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]  (Read 2700 times)

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Offline WillLem

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It's here! In all its glory!! Download link below. :thumbsup:

Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings is a sequel to Colorful Arty's awesome Reverse Lemmings!

Based on Oh No! More Lemmings, the concept is simple - each level has exactly the same layout as the original game, but the entrance and exit have been swapped!

In most cases, this leads to a completely different level solution. The skillsets have been adapted accordingly and, in some cases, aspects of the level have been slightly adjusted to make the level possible the other way around.

I aimed for this to be as clever and difficult as the original, and even went so far as to try to incorporate solutions which allude to the names of the levels. For example, Havoc's Welcome to the party, pal! features a solution which requires two Lemmings working together, etc... ;)

I've kept the Tame levels as easy and straightforward as the original - I deliberated for a while about adding additional features such as traps, extra terrain, etc, but eventually decided to keep the layouts of these the same as the original game. They're enjoyable enough to play through, and are a good warm up for the rest of the game (as any good Lemmings first-rank level set should be!) ;P

Included here is the level pack for NeoLemmix, playtested in v12.6.5, simply unzip it and place it into the NeoLemmix "levels" folder.

I'm super excited to be sharing this with you, it's been a labour of love; the result of several days careful editing and very much getting my Lemmings hat on to create some interesting and challenging levels. Lemme know what you think! :thumbsup:

-WillLem 8-)

Colorful Arty's Reverse Lemmings for NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini :thumbsup:

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 05:21:54 pm »
I've now included the updated logo & rank graphics in the re-uploaded zip attachment.

Enjoy!

- WillLem 8-)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2019, 04:47:52 pm »
Played through it and attached my replays in a zip file. :)

I don't think you've made a replay collection with your intended solutions though, as there is an impossible level in here: Crazy 11. It's impossible as the hatch which should be possible to save just walks out of the level as all level sides are deadly in NeoLemmix. Letting the right hatch spawn to the left side instead of the right fixes it.
Definitly make a replay collection of your own to maintain the pack! This way by doing a quick mass replay check you can always confirm solvability and also never forget solutions to levels (yes this happens quite a bit ;P).

Other things that I would consider changing:

The Tame levels in the original were quite boring and simply swapping exit and entrance while keeping the 20 of everything skillset doesn't improve the formular by much. Some require just 1-3 skills. There is even a level now which doesn't need any input of the player at all to solve it (Tame 13). Maybe even consider leaving that one out completely (or make some terrain changes).
In general making these original Tame levels any interesting at all without changing the terrain layout is quite a challenge in itself, they really weren't that well desgined.
Speaking of Tame 13 --> Wicked 01 could also some changes. :P

So I would rethink the skillset of the tame levels and try to make them more interesting.

Also, I bet ~90% of all the time limits here can be culled in favor of infinite time. Time limits in general only make sense to enforce multitasking in form that multiple lemmings do different parts of the route simultaniously or to block unwanted backroutes that need a longer time.
Here they now just have the potential to annoy the player like: "Oh, guess I have to rewind again and release the crowd 10 seconds earlier." And yes I had quite a few of those moments here. :evil:
So I would throw out most of the timers and have infinite ones instead.

Quite a bunch of levels always use the same trick for crowd containing: The digger pit. Switching it up a bit more can make these levels less repetitive. For that one more little advice. Try to play many different packs! It doesn't matter if you don't get far, but by playing you might get some inspiration. ;)

Ok, I hope I sounded not too harsh, but I want to give proper feedback so that future works are even better. :thumbsup:

Again my solutions are attached to this post. :)

Offline Flopsy

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 01:21:19 am »
I have only had a glimpse over this pack to see how the levels will generally be to solve.

When I was looking through Tame, I was quite interested in playing the pack except in the cases that IchoTolot mentioned above. Levels like Tame 1 and Tame 5 looked like they were going to be very challenging since you had to go through ceilings to get to the exit.

However, looking through the later ranks I got a little disappointed with the repetition of there being a lot of builders and climbers in the majority of skillsets. I know with levels like Crazy 1, it's a little hard to come up with imaginative solutions. To be honest I would be pretty stumped on how to make this one any better.

Like IchoTolot said above, don't be afraid to add terrain to the level to make them better solutions overall. As long as the level is still the level we recognise, we're not going to complain honest!
I noticed in levels like "Worra Load of Blocks" you added Steel to the left of the exit (which is where the trapdoor is in the original of course), I actually liked the way you made this level to be honest but there was too many climbers in the skillset on this level I felt. I feel if there are levels where you are giving every lemming a climber to make the solution work then there is a better way to do the solution on the level in my opinion.

I don't want to sound harsh either, you have made a very valiant attempt at this pack and I don't want to discourage you. We're just trying to help you by making your pack more appealable to more people.

One thing this pack does well though, it is an easier level pack and we need more of those to be honest. It's an easier level pack for the wrong reasons though.
Flopsy's YouTube Channel

SEB Lems (160 levels)
MegSEGAbytes (40 levels)
Gotta Go Fast (in progress)

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 07:10:04 pm »
Thanks for the comments, guys.

First off, thank you for taking the time to play through my pack and post replays and suggestions. Your feedback is very useful!

Just a few initial responses to your comments as I thought there were one or two points worth discussing:

Played through it and attached my replays in a zip file. :)

I don't think you've made a replay collection with your intended solutions though, as there is an impossible level in here: Crazy 11. It's impossible as the hatch which should be possible to save just walks out of the level as all level sides are deadly in NeoLemmix. Letting the right hatch spawn to the left side instead of the right fixes it.
Definitly make a replay collection of your own to maintain the pack! This way by doing a quick mass replay check you can always confirm solvability and also never forget solutions to levels (yes this happens quite a bit ;P).

Good shout, I'll definitely get on this as soon as I have time. And yes, I'll remember to include replays in future packs. I'll also update Crazy 11 for NL and re-post the pack (I originally playtested it in SL, which allows the Lemming to bounce off the edge).

The Tame levels in the original were quite boring and simply swapping exit and entrance while keeping the 20 of everything skillset doesn't improve the formular by much. Some require just 1-3 skills. There is even a level now which doesn't need any input of the player at all to solve it (Tame 13). Maybe even consider leaving that one out completely (or make some terrain changes).
In general making these original Tame levels any interesting at all without changing the terrain layout is quite a challenge in itself, they really weren't that well desgined.
Speaking of Tame 13 --> Wicked 01 could also some changes. :P

I know with levels like Crazy 1, it's a little hard to come up with imaginative solutions. To be honest I would be pretty stumped on how to make this one any better.

Like IchoTolot said above, don't be afraid to add terrain to the level to make them better solutions overall. As long as the level is still the level we recognise, we're not going to complain honest!

As mentioned in my original post, I considered adding terrain to many of the levels to make them more interesting, but I went with the decision to only add/change terrain if needed to make a level possible (with only very few exceptions).

To be fair, one of the main reasons I went with a remix pack for my first pack was because it's a good way of easing into creating levels (plus I like Colorful Arty's game and felt like a sequel was in order!). I agree it could be better, and I probably will revisit it at some point. For now though, I think my Lemmings time is best spent playing through other people's packs for inspiration, as you've suggested, and concentrating on future projects.

Incidentally, what did you think of the Havoc levels? By this point, I was used to using the editor and coming up with solutions, I think the last 4 in particular are amongst the best levels in there. It would be helpful to know which levels you thought were good so I know what I'm doing right as well as what I'm doing wrong.

Also, when I played through Reverse Lemmings I quite enjoyed the fact that some of the more difficult levels in the original became ridiculously easy in the reverse version! Wicked 13 is a great example of this. I realise that you don't have to actually do anything, but I think that's part of the fun of it. For this reason, I'm leaving these levels as they are. I think I did a good job of coming up with interesting puzzles elsewhere in the pack, so it's nice to have the odd level where you can just sit back and let them pour into the exit! :D

Also, I bet ~90% of all the time limits here can be culled in favor of infinite time. Time limits in general only make sense to enforce multitasking in form that multiple lemmings do different parts of the route simultaniously or to block unwanted backroutes that need a longer time.
Here they now just have the potential to annoy the player like: "Oh, guess I have to rewind again and release the crowd 10 seconds earlier." And yes I had quite a few of those moments here. :evil:
So I would throw out most of the timers and have infinite ones instead.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Remembering to release the crowd is often part of the solution... I guess in NeoLemmix it's a moot point because it's so easy to rewind and redo things, so I guess it just becomes an annoyance. I'm open to discussion on this point, certainly, but I'm probably more old-school on this - I prefer having to remember to click that increase button at the right time, as part of the puzzle!

Quite a bunch of levels always use the same trick for crowd containing: The digger pit. Switching it up a bit more can make these levels less repetitive.

Really? I thought I switched it up quite a lot... I'll play through them again to do the replays and see if I get the same impression. Off the top of my head, I'm aware of at least 8 crowd-containing tactics which I employed throughout the game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Having said that, I'm more than interested to learn more containing tricks (as long as they don't involve using glitches) for inclusion in my future levels, for sure! Also, since there are a lot of levels in this pack and I worked on them one after the other, I'm aware that some of them may have been a little bit rushed in this department.

Anyways, I'm really glad people are playing through this pack. For now I'm much more interested in finishing up my current project, which I hope you'll agree is much better. But, I will look at revisiting this (and maybe even the original Reverse Lemmings, if Colorful Arty is happy for me to do so) in the future to make a more definitive version based on people's feedback (and what I learn along the way...) :thumbsup:

Thanks again guys, keep the useful comments coming! Constructive criticism, helpful feedback, and genuine encouragement are always welcome.

I'll let you know how I get on with your level packs in the meantime!

Best regards,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 07:33:51 pm »
Quote
I'm not sure I agree with this. Remembering to release the crowd is often part of the solution... I guess in NeoLemmix it's a moot point because it's so easy to rewind and redo things, so I guess it just becomes an annoyance. I'm open to discussion on this point, certainly, but I'm probably more old-school on this - I prefer having to remember to click that increase button at the right time, as part of the puzzle!

Let's say I've heard exactly this quite a few times by newer people now. ;)

Purely remembering to do something is not a puzzle element. Realizing it in the first place is and it is totally obvious that you have to release the crowd here. The when part is not critical unless it depends other components as well (like the crowd release should be timed so that it merges exactly with a worker) and here it doesn't depend on other components.

Should a otherwise identical solution fail just because the crowd arrives 10 seconds later? No, a solution should fail if it's not the intended one, not when it's otherwise identical to intended routes and just takes a few moments longer! A timer can help to sort out completely different un-intended approaches and force either different more time-efficient routes or faster usually more multitasking heavy routes. But not annoy players by sorting out their solutions where they release the crowd a few seconds later.

The timer is a nessesary part of the solution in around 5-10% of times. Look at other NL packs and count timers! Take maybe the Lemmings Plus series or Lemmings United as a possible example. 

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 09:18:17 pm »
Purely remembering to do something is not a puzzle element. Realizing it in the first place is and it is totally obvious that you have to release the crowd here. The when part is not critical unless it depends other components as well (like the crowd release should be timed so that it merges exactly with a worker) and here it doesn't depend on other components.

I hadn't looked at it that way before, it's an interesting point - and, to be fair, you've given me a great idea for a level with this comment! :thumbsup:

I guess I've always seen the time limit as an integral part of the Lemmings game, and I find something satisfying about releasing the crowd at just the right moment and then sitting back and watching them navigate the freshly-crafted route. I guess you could do that with an unlimited timer as well, but something about finishing a level with only 2 or 3 seconds left on the clock just makes it that little bit sweeter...

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2019, 11:33:31 pm »
I guess I've always seen the time limit as an integral part of the Lemmings game, and I find something satisfying about releasing the crowd at just the right moment and then sitting back and watching them navigate the freshly-crafted route. I guess you could do that with an unlimited timer as well, but something about finishing a level with only 2 or 3 seconds left on the clock just makes it that little bit sweeter...

I know this statisfying feeling, but I only get it in a level where the time limit really matters and is not just a little annoying thing you rewind once for. No, you should be thinking about how to get them home in time, not just release them a tiny bit earlier.

Let me give you 3 examples which emphasize the multitasking approach. The solution of each respeected level is spoiled though.

The first one (3 seconds left here): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARj4IgCZviE&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlIQG4Kx4cbfNYeXdj8pk5hb&index=70

The second one (I've got 10 seconds left here): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-anyBCamZ3E&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlKL_gpsNgZfNTRvt_28AVqf&index=109

The third one (8 seconds left): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHcuKQM0lD4&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlI6CFD0N0cRO_nbW8d005XV&index=30

I would call that just made it effect far more effective.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2019, 11:40:26 pm »
I guess you could do that with an unlimited timer as well, but something about finishing a level with only 2 or 3 seconds left on the clock just makes it that little bit sweeter...

Except it was never like that even in the original game, even on advanced levels most of them give you plenty enough time to finish for the intended solution, usually you wouldn't be left with only 2-3 seconds on the clock unless you really forgot to increase the RR.  (And since there is no fast-forward in the original game, you'd almost never forget, though you may not have increased it as early as you could've.)  Only specific levels designed for speed-optimized solutions, such as "Just a Minute" and "The Fast Food Kitchen", are cases where the timer helps enforce intended solutions by blocking some of the easier but slower solutions.  There may be a few more levels with somewhat tight time limit that doesn't eliminate slower solutions, but on the whole they are pretty rare I think.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2019, 01:08:03 pm »
Cool, great replays. I'm playing through Lemmings United at the moment but I'll get onto the Plus series sometime, for sure. I want to see what Namida's levels are like!

I'll take these comments regarding the timing into consideration for future projects, for sure. If ever I'm creating a level where I feel time doesn't really matter or shouldn't be a factor, I know the option is there to make it an infinite level.

So, does anyone have any positive comments about this pack? Anything that went well, anything you enjoyed?

It's always good to know what you're getting right as well as things that can be improved.

Cheers,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2019, 01:16:13 pm »
N.B. I have now updated the pack with the corrected Crazy 11 - No Problemming! - it's now possible in NeoLemmix (Thanks for the heads up, IchoTolot).

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2019, 05:02:44 pm »
So, does anyone have any positive comments about this pack? Anything that went well, anything you enjoyed?

I think it's actually a quite important pack right now. We need some easier packs for new format NL at the moment and this fits in. :)

That's also a reason why I pointed out all these points earlier: If things like the timer issues are addressed and fixed this could become a candidate to point newer players at. ;)

Because of the lack of easier packs and proper tutorials that also go a bit deeper into functions and mechanics, I am also developing an NeoLemmix introduction pack right now. It's still in development, but as parts get finished up I release them for beta testing. Topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4332.0
As you are still quite new this could be a good place to learn some new tricks and you could provide me with valuable feedback if you want. ;)

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2019, 10:32:16 pm »
So, does anyone have any positive comments about this pack? Anything that went well, anything you enjoyed?

I think it's actually a quite important pack right now. We need some easier packs for new format NL at the moment and this fits in. :)

That's also a reason why I pointed out all these points earlier: If things like the timer issues are addressed and fixed this could become a candidate to point newer players at. ;)

Because of the lack of easier packs and proper tutorials that also go a bit deeper into functions and mechanics, I am also developing an NeoLemmix introduction pack right now. It's still in development, but as parts get finished up I release them for beta testing. Topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4332.0
As you are still quite new this could be a good place to learn some new tricks and you could provide me with valuable feedback if you want. ;)

Brill, I'll get playing some of these now and offer some feedback!

Also, I like making fairly simple and fun-to-play levels. I have an idea for a short but sweet level pack which I'll look at making & releasing in the new year. ;P

Offline WillLem

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2019, 08:50:19 pm »

I think it's actually a quite important pack right now. We need some easier packs for new format NL at the moment and this fits in. :)

That's also a reason why I pointed out all these points earlier: If things like the timer issues are addressed and fixed this could become a candidate to point newer players at. ;)

I was thinking about this comment today. If you're happy to address some specific changes you'd like me to make, I'll get on it as soon as I can. I'd like it if the pack was useful in some way!

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings (100 Levels)
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 01:00:58 pm »
Quote
I was thinking about this comment today. If you're happy to address some specific changes you'd like me to make, I'll get on it as soon as I can. I'd like it if the pack was useful in some way!

The changes I would propose are similar to the things I pointed out already:

1.) Cull unnessesary timers. I would set infinite time as the default and really think about if a timer is needed in a level after the examples I gave before.

2.) Change redundant levels. Tame 13, Wicked 01 and I would even call Crazy 11 out here as well. Try to make them more interesting even if you have to change the level a bit for it. (Maybe Crazy 11 could have a higher than half save requirement and no timer, so you actually have to work here. Maybe even force to bring the central crowd to the very right exit?)

3.) Have a 2nd look over the tame levels. If you see a interesting still somewhat easy way to solve a level try to enforce it. I would even say small level adjustments are ok as the tame levels can be hard to make interesting.