Hi-Res support for NeoLemmix? Bring back SuperLemmini?

[WillLem]

Really interested to see what the general consensus is on this. If demand is high, I'll be up for getting involved in a re-vamp wherever possible.

Let me know your thoughts!

[namida]

If you want an actively maintained engine that also has high res graphics, take a look at Lix.

As the only currently active developer of NeoLemmix, high res graphics are something I can agree would be neat, but extremely, extremely low priority. Of course, NeoLemmix is open source, so you're welcome to submit code for this yourself - I'll integrate it if it can be done as a purely visual change with no impact on physics, sure. (Anything that introduces two different sets of physics is a big "no" from me and will remain so as long as I'm in charge of NeoLemmix; while just having a single set of physics but changing it from the current set would need significant community agreement, but I am open to it - though I think it's very unlikely that the needed community support would be there.)

I'd also ask whether it's really worth just supporting the WinLemm resolution, which is only double that of DOS and still very low by modern standards. The only advantage over a higher one is that graphics already exist for the official styles - but not the 50+ custom ones.

[ccexplore]

Can someone remind me whether SuperLemmini had its own level editor at any point?  Seems absurd to me that NeoLemmix was the only level editor for it.

The blame lies squarely on the maker of SuperLemmini for leaving it in such a state where somehow it needs some other game now as its level editor.  SuperLemmini has been around for a while, seems like it has gotten every chance there is to be something as actively used as the other games here.  There's probably a lot of history I glossed over, but perhaps how SuperLemmini fared over time compared to the other games here, also speaks a little to the general preferences of this community in terms of what they value most?

[namida]

Can someone remind me whether SuperLemmini had its own level editor at any point?  Seems absurd to me that NeoLemmix was the only level editor for it.

Neither Lemmini nor SuperLemmini have ever had their own dedicated level editor. The old Lemmix editor, and early versions of the old NeoLemmix Editor (the one based on the Lemmix editor), were able to edit regular Lemmini levels. LJLPM's jLevelBuilder, which I believe is designed for his Android clone, also has support for Lemmini levels. The old NeoLemmix Editor specifically had support for most SuperLemmini features, including a couple that NeoLemmix didn't support, and it retained this SuperLemmini support for a while after dropping support for Lemmix and Lemmini levels - it still retained, right up to the last version released, support for loading SuperLemmini levels; and new-formats NeoLemmix itself is capable of loading SuperLemmini levels, assuming a suitable translation table for the style exists. (The new-formats level editor only supports new-formats NeoLemmix levels (NXLV), although it can ask NeoLemmix to convert any level it supports to NXLV.)

SuperLemmini is fairly (but not completely) backwards compatible with Lemmini, so creating levels with a Lemmini editor and porting them over is feasible, as long as you don't want to use things like vertical scrolling.

In the case of Lemmini itself, the lack of an editor was more justified: The author developed it primarily as a way to play the official game on non-Windows / newer Windows systems, not as an engine for custom content.


I think though, a big reason SuperLemmini fell out of favor was due to the shift in perception in the community of how Lemmings clones should play. SuperLemmini's creator chose not to go along with the fine-control, "puzzle, not execution" approach that NeoLemmix (and before it, regular Lemmix) and Lix had been taking for some time - even untimed bombers was something the creator was very reluctant to add. The community on the other hand had developed a preference towards this style, and thus, an engine that didn't follow it didn't have much hope of overthrowing the two that do.

Maybe in the future, this preference will change again. After working on a custom Lemmings 3D pack a while ago, I've started to really see the advantage to tile-based rather than pixel-based mechanics. Depending how far the "avoid execution difficulty" mentality goes, maybe in the future a tile-based engine might overthrow both NeoLemmix and Lix. I do, however, suspect it's unlikely that we'd go backwards, towards higher execution difficulty.

[ccexplore]

To echo what a few others have already said here and elsewhere:  doesn't Lix pretty much fit the bill completely?  You got the high resolution graphics and all the 8 classic skills are there.  Other than the change of timed bombers to instant bombers and the removal of release rate control, and the use of all new graphics, sound and music to avoid copyright issues, isn't Lix basically what SuperLemmini would be if it kept up with NeoLemmix?  What is missing there for you to still prefer SuperLemmini?

[namida]

There are some object types supported by SuperLemmini but not by Lix - one-way arrows and directional force fields, to be precise. It is possible to replicate these setups by carefully constructed terrain, though.

There's also a few "these mostly exist to be unfair" features such as fake or invisible terrain in SuperLemmini, but I'm hoping that's not what appeals to anyone about it. It also has support for backgrounds made up of arbitrary terrain pieces rather than a single preset image (NeoLemmix) or none at all (Lix), although this is virtually a moot point given that no editor has ever supported this. Another difference would be the lack of support for variable release rate and time limits in Lix.

One possible other concern people might have is to do with the graphic bit depth, rather than the resolution, in NeoLemmix. NL uses the DOS versions of the official graphic sets, which you're well aware of the palette limitations of. However, this is not an inherent restriction of NL itself anymore - recent versions of NeoLemmix even support alpha blending, let alone just 24-bit color, which in this regard even puts it ahead of Lix (which supports 24-bit color, but transparency is an all-or-nothing deal as far as I'm aware). And yes, there are specific algorithms in play to determine the alpha-blended physics map that don't rely on any specific graphic library's implementation. You just have to dive into the custom graphic sets to actually see this - plenty that use 24-bit color, but as far as I know, only the three LPVI sets use alpha blending (and even then, only for objects, as it wasn't properly supported for terrain at the time LPVI was made).

[WillLem]

If you want an actively maintained engine that also has high res graphics, take a look at Lix.

As the only currently active developer of NeoLemmix, high res graphics are something I can agree would be neat, but extremely, extremely low priority. Of course, NeoLemmix is open source, so you're welcome to submit code for this yourself - I'll integrate it if it can be done as a purely visual change with no impact on physics, sure. (Anything that introduces two different sets of physics is a big "no" from me and will remain so as long as I'm in charge of NeoLemmix; while just having a single set of physics but changing it from the current set would need significant community agreement, but I am open to it - though I think it's very unlikely that the needed community support would be there.)

I'd also ask whether it's really worth just supporting the WinLemm resolution, which is only double that of DOS and still very low by modern standards. The only advantage over a higher one is that graphics already exist for the official styles - but not the 50+ custom ones.

Hi namida, thanks for your reply and for engaging with this topic, it's really great to be talking about this with the NL developer!

I have tried Lix but find that it just... isn't Lemmings! The gameplay is the same, more or less, but I'm a very visually-oriented person (hence the obsession with Hi-Res graphics!) and the look & feel of Lix is not my cup of tea. I also think that wayyy higher resolution, such as in the Sony versions, is going a bit far - WinLemm is a nice balance between slightly prettier graphics and old school look/feel.

Thanks for offering to let me have a go at coding. I have to say though, my coding skills are extremely limited (I don't have any!), but I am good enough with cartoon graphics to be able to help with getting a Hi-Res set together for NeoLemmix.

As a start, and to see if you're interested in this offer, I have attached red & green versions of the WinLemm animation sets for walker, faller, climber, floater, bomber and splatter. These would be for the 'highlighted' and 'skill assigned' Lemmings in NL (which is a super idea, btw - as are the forward & reverse step-frame buttons. Very nice!).

For some reason, I can't seem to find the animation sets for blocker, builder, basher, miner or digger anywhere in my WinLemm directory... if you can point me towards these, I'm happy to give these the same treatment.

Furthermore, if you like I am more than happy to create WinLemm-style graphics sets for all of the custom skills included in NeoLemmix. If you send me over the animation frames for each one, I'll scale them up to 24-bit and add the extra colours/pixels.

Of course, I'm assuming here that the WinLemm graphics follow the same physics as DOS/NL... if I'm wrong about this, please do let me know.

Best,

-WillLem

[WillLem]

SuperLemmini has been around for a while, seems like it has gotten every chance there is to be something as actively used as the other games here.  There's probably a lot of history I glossed over, but perhaps how SuperLemmini fared over time compared to the other games here, also speaks a little to the general preferences of this community in terms of what they value most?

Fair enough. It would be nice to have the additional option though, for those of us who prefer the chunkier look of WinLemm/SuperLemmini

[WillLem]

I think though, a big reason SuperLemmini fell out of favor was due to the shift in perception in the community of how Lemmings clones should play. SuperLemmini's creator chose not to go along with the fine-control, "puzzle, not execution" approach that NeoLemmix (and before it, regular Lemmix) and Lix had been taking for some time - even untimed bombers was something the creator was very reluctant to add. The community on the other hand had developed a preference towards this style, and thus, an engine that didn't follow it didn't have much hope of overthrowing the two that do.

Maybe in the future, this preference will change again. After working on a custom Lemmings 3D pack a while ago, I've started to really see the advantage to tile-based rather than pixel-based mechanics. Depending how far the "avoid execution difficulty" mentality goes, maybe in the future a tile-based engine might overthrow both NeoLemmix and Lix. I do, however, suspect it's unlikely that we'd go backwards, towards higher execution difficulty.

I've had a play with NeoLemmix over the past few days whilst I've been active on here. I have to say, I'm loving the emphasis on puzzle-solving rather than execution. It's a welcome development that I've been missing out on whilst I've been mainly playing the Windows & Lemmini versions. Again, I prefer those purely because of the graphics and the pretty GUI (as mentioned above, I'm a visual kinda guy). However, the gameplay of NL is far better! I can see why people tend towards this version, and why SuperLemmini fell by the wayside.

Maybe we could have the best of both world by integrating 24-bit graphics as an additional option. That way, users who prefer the DOS graphics ("we fear change!") can stick with that, whilst those of us who appreciate the chunkier look of WinLemm/SL can choose to enjoy NeoLemmix HD!

(I say HD tongue-in-cheek, of course! )

Thoughts?

[Dullstar]

I would like to note that I don't consider a fear of change to be my reasoning for preferring the low-res graphics to the high-res graphics (sorry, you're the one who said "we fear change!").

Some modernized ports of various games have decent graphical face-lifts, but WinLemm's, in my opinion, aren't very good from an aesthetic point of view. They're certainly higher res, and therefore more "technically impressive" but that doesn't mean they actually look better due to the actual quality of the art direction. I find the terrain of the DOS versions more believable because the shading is such that everything looks like it's actually made of the material it's trying to look like, but the WinLemm graphics are too shiny (especially on the dirt set), which makes everything appear much more metallic than it should. Higher resolution, lower quality.

[ccexplore]

That way, users who prefer the DOS graphics ("we fear change!")

I know you're half-kidding here, but let's be crystal clear that if anyone prefers the DOS graphics it probably has nothing to do with "fear of change".  NeoLemmix already changed in many, many ways from original Lemmings.  Just like most of the people who bought NES Classic Edition are probably not also avoiding all the newest generations of Nintendo consoles.

Given that Lix started off from inception with higher resolution graphics and people hadn't been complaining about that, I'd say most people here are actually pretty neutral when it comes to graphics resolution.  That said, I think the record here with NeoLemmix at least, also looks pretty clear that higher resolution graphics support has never been amongst the more frequently requested feature; we had been seeing far more requests (well, so far anyway) for things like new skills for example.

Lix consciously avoids borrowing any graphics from the original games to steer clear of any copyright issues.  So the game in the official repository can never include the WinLemm graphics for example.  But there's nothing preventing you or anyone else (well, other than time and effort) to port the WinLemm styles over to Lix, and provide the files for other people to put into their copy of Lix.  Lix doesn't currently support a level customizing the lix animations, but there's also nothing preventing you from changing the graphics in your own copy of the game to use WinLemm's (though you'll have to make your own version of animations for the lix skills that are not the classic 8, and some of the lix skills have deviated a little from lemmings so it might not look quite right to directly use WinLemm's animations in Lix without some tweaks), in other words modding them globally to look like lemmings than lixes.  AFAIK most if not all graphics in Lix are in PNG files that you can mod yourself without changing any of the game's programming.

[namida]

Okay, so for starters - we wouldn't need recolored sprites. NeoLemmix recolors them via code, not via alternate spritesheets.

What we would need graphically, is (a) high res Xmas lemming sprites, and (b) high res original lemming sprites for 8 of the 10 new skills in NeoLemmix (the Walker and Cloner don't need sprites).

However, as mentioned, this is going to be very low priority on the coding side, and likely, any creation of them at this stage will be a wasted effort. If anything, it would make more sense for the code to be there first, perhaps using quick and dirty upscaled sprites as placeholders during development, and swapping in proper ones later.

A more immediately useful effort might be to recreate the graphic sets in higher quality. Same resolution, but full 24 bit color (alpha blending would need to be avoided to prevent physics breaks on existing levels). NeoLemmix already supports this, as you'll see if you look at graphic sets like those from Lemmings Plus IV onwards.

With that being said, some people may be averse to such a change, so it would need to exist as a mod rather than a change to NL's standard copies of these sets.

[Simon]

I suppose you want hi-res physics where 1 pixel equals 1 physics unit. Then be careful with near-invisible terrain relics that impact physics. Nasty source of annoyance in Clones; the clones would constantly hit their head and turn.

Also, hi-res physics with 1 pixel = 1 physics unit ("chunk") will produce really narrow vertical gaps where lemmings will fall through, but that are easy to overlook.


The alternative is to define a chunk to encompass several neighboring graphical pixels, but that is a constant source of pathologies. We must invent a rule that governs exactly when a chunk becomes solid.

The obvious rules, e.g., every 2x1 chunk (two pixels next to each other) becomes solid if at least 1 pixel is opaque, produces weird behavior dependent on horizontal offset. The right half of this example is a mere shift of the left half's terrain, but the shift is by an odd number of pixels. Since a 2x1 chunk is defined as an even-coordinate pixel together with its right-side odd-coordinate neighbor, and a chunk is defined solid if at least one of its two pixels is opaque, shifting terrain by an odd amount affects the physics of the terrain.

I suppose that that there are similar pathological examples for the Winlemm rule: 3 out of 4 makes a 2x2 chunk solid.


Maybe there are fancy new and exciting rules that I haven't considered. E.g., maybe chunks shouldn't be reliant on global coordinates at all, unlike the 2x1 chunks of Lix. A level should ideally play exactly the same after you shift everything by 1 pixel to the right.

-- Simon

[namida]

Given the complexity involved in a physics change, I'd think any change to high-res in NL would need to take one of these two approaches:

1. Physics stay as close as possible to current. The "is pixel solid?" check, instead of checking a single pixel, checks a 2x2 area (which may start at an odd offset). This would still need significant changes, as we could likely no longer pre-determine each individual pixel's solidity in cases of alpha blending, but would instead have to do so on-the-fly during runtime due to the different ways the pixel could be included in a 2x2 chunk. As such, even this approach would be pretty complicated.

2. Physics don't change at all, and the higher-resolution is a purely visual element. Terrain pieces, objects, etc can only be placed on 2 pixel boundaries, and a low-resolution physics map is generated for them, probably again using some 2x2 area rule (but based on the terrain piece's standalone graphic, not the overall level physics map).

[Simon]

Or keep lo-res, and optionally pipe the output through a pixel art scaler. They're a massive improvement over blurred bilinear scaling.

But does anybody really want lo-res physics with hi-res rendering? I still believe that WillLem wants hi-res physics.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

But does anybody really want lo-res physics with hi-res rendering? I still believe that WillLem wants hi-res physics.

I actually disagree, from my reading of this posts it seems his primary concern is with the visuals of WinLemm.  It is unclear whether he cares about the physics, though you do have to also consider how that plays into the framerate you would run all the game's animations on.  Lo-res physics with hi-res rendering does already exist in Mac Lemmings, so at least in one case the developers deemed it a reasonable compromise.  I don't remember how WinLemm handles hi-res, though it would not surprise me at all if it took the same approach as Mac, since doubling the framerate for hi-res (well, if you want the lemmings to walk at visually the same speed as low-res, rather than twice as slow) may simply not be feasible in all levels with the hardware of the time.  Though I suppose they could maybe cheat a little by only rendering every other frame so that it doesn't have to actually render twice as frequently as lo-res, even though the physics might actually be updated twice as frequently.  Maybe.

Keeping the physics lo-res also makes it potentially possible to support rendering the same level with either lo-res or hi-res graphics without affecting the gameplay and solution of the level at all, assuming care has been taken to ensure the two versions of terrain graphics resolve identically in terms of physics (and similarly, all the terrain changes performed by skills behave likewise).  I don't have anything personally against leaving to the level author to pick lo-res vs hi-res, but I feel like if we do that, inevitably someone like WillLem will next be pushing for some way to override that preset choice anyway and ask to be able to play a level authored lo-res with the hi-res graphics counterparts instead (and vice versa for the mirror-universe version of WillLem, so to speak).  [To clarify, I'm primarily talking about styles like the ones based on the original game's, that would presumably come in both lo-res and hi-res versions.  For custom content it will be up to the content creator whether to bother creating both vs just one of the two.]

Don't get me wrong, it's probably more natural to have hi-res physics with the hi-res graphics.  But I suspect doing that will make it even less likely to happen for NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Or keep lo-res, and optionally pipe the output through a pixel art scaler. They're a massive improvement over blurred bilinear scaling.

But does anybody really want lo-res physics with hi-res rendering? I still believe that WillLem wants hi-res physics.

-- Simon

I assume then, they'd also be far more CPU-intensive. Especially on larger levels, this can be a bit of a limiting factor even on powerful PCs as it is, let alone with a more demanding algorithm.

[WillLem]

I would like to note that I don't consider a fear of change to be my reasoning for preferring the low-res graphics to the high-res graphics (sorry, you're the one who said "we fear change!").

Some modernized ports of various games have decent graphical face-lifts, but WinLemm's, in my opinion, aren't very good from an aesthetic point of view. They're certainly higher res, and therefore more "technically impressive" but that doesn't mean they actually look better due to the actual quality of the art direction. I find the terrain of the DOS versions more believable because the shading is such that everything looks like it's actually made of the material it's trying to look like, but the WinLemm graphics are too shiny (especially on the dirt set), which makes everything appear much more metallic than it should. Higher resolution, lower quality.

It's an interesting point; advancement of technical visuals doesn't necessarily make things better. I still prefer 80s & 90s movies to modern-day CGI-fests. You can't beat model making and visible tape editing SFX. So yeah, I totally agree with you that higher resolution doesn't necessarily mean higher quality.

The graphics sets in DOS are just fine tbh, it's mainly the Lemmings themselves that I think look better in WinLemm.

(Oh yeah, and I was joking when I said "we fear change!", it's a quote from Wayne's World. Just put it in there for giggles)

[WillLem]

That way, users who prefer the DOS graphics ("we fear change!")

I know you're half-kidding here, but let's be crystal clear that if anyone prefers the DOS graphics it probably has nothing to do with "fear of change".  NeoLemmix already changed in many, many ways from original Lemmings.  Just like most of the people who bought NES Classic Edition are probably not also avoiding all the newest generations of Nintendo consoles.

Given that Lix started off from inception with higher resolution graphics and people hadn't been complaining about that, I'd say most people here are actually pretty neutral when it comes to graphics resolution.  That said, I think the record here with NeoLemmix at least, also looks pretty clear that higher resolution graphics support has never been amongst the more frequently requested feature; we had been seeing far more requests (well, so far anyway) for things like new skills for example.

Lix consciously avoids borrowing any graphics from the original games to steer clear of any copyright issues.  So the game in the official repository can never include the WinLemm graphics for example.  But there's nothing preventing you or anyone else (well, other than time and effort) to port the WinLemm styles over to Lix, and provide the files for other people to put into their copy of Lix.  Lix doesn't currently support a level customizing the lix animations, but there's also nothing preventing you from changing the graphics in your own copy of the game to use WinLemm's (though you'll have to make your own version of animations for the lix skills that are not the classic 8, and some of the lix skills have deviated a little from lemmings so it might not look quite right to directly use WinLemm's animations in Lix without some tweaks), in other words modding them globally to look like lemmings than lixes.  AFAIK most if not all graphics in Lix are in PNG files that you can mod yourself without changing any of the game's programming.

Yeah, I was joking. Everyone has different preferences, and there can be something particularly nice about playing games in their original format. Retro gaming is a big thing, after all.

And indeed, NeoLemmix is superb as a platform for the game of Lemmings. The emphasis on puzzle-solving is a welcome development, as is the ability to reverse an action if you make a mistake rather than having to do the whole level again! (Hunt the Nessy & X marks the spot come to mind here...!)

Nice idea about modding Lix, I didn't realise that would be possible from an end-user POV. I'll see if I can figure out how to do it...

[WillLem]

Okay, so for starters - we wouldn't need recolored sprites. NeoLemmix recolors them via code, not via alternate spritesheets.

What we would need graphically, is (a) high res Xmas lemming sprites, and (b) high res original lemming sprites for 8 of the 10 new skills in NeoLemmix (the Walker and Cloner don't need sprites).

However, as mentioned, this is going to be very low priority on the coding side, and likely, any creation of them at this stage will be a wasted effort. If anything, it would make more sense for the code to be there first, perhaps using quick and dirty upscaled sprites as placeholders during development, and swapping in proper ones later.

A more immediately useful effort might be to recreate the graphic sets in higher quality. Same resolution, but full 24 bit color (alpha blending would need to be avoided to prevent physics breaks on existing levels). NeoLemmix already supports this, as you'll see if you look at graphic sets like those from Lemmings Plus IV onwards.

With that being said, some people may be averse to such a change, so it would need to exist as a mod rather than a change to NL's standard copies of these sets.

Hmmm yes, my inexperience with coding/game development is probably very apparent in the midst of this discussion! I'm primarily an artist rather than an engineer; I make music and cartoon art.

That being the case, I would be more than happy to make the new sprites needed for the 8 new skills. If you can send me over the frame-by-frame sprites as they are currently, that would be very handy as a guide for what's needed.

As for the Xmas sprites, I'm pretty sure these already exist in WinLemm style (they feature in both Lemmini and SuperLemmini, so someone must have them somewhere, or maybe they're extractable from the Lemmini directories?)

Just so I'm clear as to what you mean by "graphics sets", are you referring to the individual components that make up a level such as terrain, objects, liquid, etc? Or the buttons, text, menus, etc? Or both?

[WillLem]

I suppose you want hi-res physics where 1 pixel equals 1 physics unit.

Namida has already expressed in no uncertain terms that the physics will remain lo-res as long as he's developing NL. I guess an upscaling of the graphics is the main thing I'd personally be interested in, but that's only because I don't know the first thing about coding video game physics and I'm very happy to regard Namida's expertise on that point!

Given the complexity involved in a physics change, I'd think any change to high-res in NL would need to take one of these two approaches:

1. Physics stay as close as possible to current. The "is pixel solid?" check, instead of checking a single pixel, checks a 2x2 area (which may start at an odd offset). This would still need significant changes, as we could likely no longer pre-determine each individual pixel's solidity in cases of alpha blending, but would instead have to do so on-the-fly during runtime due to the different ways the pixel could be included in a 2x2 chunk. As such, even this approach would be pretty complicated.

2. Physics don't change at all, and the higher-resolution is a purely visual element. Terrain pieces, objects, etc can only be placed on 2 pixel boundaries, and a low-resolution physics map is generated for them, probably again using some 2x2 area rule (but based on the terrain piece's standalone graphic, not the overall level physics map).

Approach 2 seems like the best compromise.

Or keep lo-res, and optionally pipe the output through a pixel art scaler. They're a massive improvement over blurred bilinear scaling.

Good shout. Pixel art scalers might be a great solution, I'd certainly consider using them to modify the individual sprites & graphics sets. But...would there be away to apply them to an entire game's output?

But does anybody really want lo-res physics with hi-res rendering? I still believe that WillLem wants hi-res physics.

Not so much, as mentioned above I'm more concerned with the visuals than the physics. Leave that to the coding geniuses!

But does anybody really want lo-res physics with hi-res rendering? I still believe that WillLem wants hi-res physics.

I actually disagree, from my reading of this posts it seems his primary concern is with the visuals of WinLemm.  It is unclear whether he cares about the physics, though you do have to also consider how that plays into the framerate you would run all the game's animations on.  Lo-res physics with hi-res rendering does already exist in Mac Lemmings, so at least in one case the developers deemed it a reasonable compromise.  I don't remember how WinLemm handles hi-res, though it would not surprise me at all if it took the same approach as Mac, since doubling the framerate for hi-res (well, if you want the lemmings to walk at visually the same speed as low-res, rather than twice as slow) may simply not be feasible in all levels with the hardware of the time.  Though I suppose they could maybe cheat a little by only rendering every other frame so that it doesn't have to actually render twice as frequently as lo-res, even though the physics might actually be updated twice as frequently.  Maybe.

Keeping the physics lo-res also makes it potentially possible to support rendering the same level with either lo-res or hi-res graphics without affecting the gameplay and solution of the level at all, assuming care has been taken to ensure the two versions of terrain graphics resolve identically in terms of physics (and similarly, all the terrain changes performed by skills behave likewise).  I don't have anything personally against leaving to the level author to pick lo-res vs hi-res, but I feel like if we do that, inevitably someone like WillLem will next be pushing for some way to override that preset choice anyway and ask to be able to play a level authored lo-res with the hi-res graphics counterparts instead (and vice versa for the mirror-universe version of WillLem, so to speak).  [To clarify, I'm primarily talking about styles like the ones based on the original game's, that would presumably come in both lo-res and hi-res versions.  For custom content it will be up to the content creator whether to bother creating both vs just one of the two.]

Don't get me wrong, it's probably more natural to have hi-res physics with the hi-res graphics.  But I suspect doing that will make it even less likely to happen for NeoLemmix.

Yeah, exactly. What ccexplore said

[namida]

That being the case, I would be more than happy to make the new sprites needed for the 8 new skills. If you can send me over the frame-by-frame sprites as they are currently, that would be very handy as a guide for what's needed.

If you have NeoLemmix V12.0.0 or higher (ideally, V12.6.0 or higher, as these include a couple of new sprites for the Shimmier skill), then look in styles\default\lemmings and styles\xmas\lemmings for the standard and xmas sprites respectively. The "scheme.nxmi" file is a text-based file, and describes the recoloring for certain states as well as the hotspot and frame counts for each graphic. (Note that these frame counts are purely for visuals; the physics frame count for actions where this matters is hardcoded and cannot be changed short of hacking the EXE or a source code modification.)

If you haven't already, you might want to try out the new skills in-game too, either by playing content that contains it (Lemmings Plus VI is a good one that's not too hard, although it doesn't use the Shimmier skill - the Shimmier is a very recent addition and wasn't in NL yet when LPVI came out, and was only included in a stable release about a month ago; I don't really think there is much content that does use it yet). It might be easier to think about how such sprites should look after seeing them in action.

The Disarmer currently has a graphic nearly identical to the Digger. We need a unique sprite for it even at low-res, but no one has made one yet.

As for the Xmas sprites, I'm pretty sure these already exist in WinLemm style (they feature in both Lemmini and SuperLemmini, so someone must have them somewhere, or maybe they're extractable from the Lemmini directories?)

They definitely don't exist officially. If SuperLemmini has them, Tsyu may have created them himself, or found them as part of some Lemmini fan-created content. They also could be direct upscales of the low-res sprites, or direct recolors of the non-xmas sprites.

Just so I'm clear as to what you mean by "graphics sets", are you referring to the individual components that make up a level such as terrain, objects, liquid, etc?

Ah, "graphic set" is a bit of an outdated term now, we usually call them "styles", but old habits die hard. Anyway, a graphic set or a style refers to the collection of components - objects, terrain, backgrounds, lemming sprites, etc; some styles might not have all of these elements. In the case of the official DOS Lemmings games, we have 10 graphic sets - from Orig, "Dirt", "Fire", "Marble", "Pillar" and "Crystal"; from OhNo, "Brick", "Rock", "Snow" and "Bubble", and then the Xmas style from Holiday Lemmings. (One thing to note here is that Xmas mostly has the same terrain pieces as Snow; and as such, NeoLemmix has merged the terrain pieces from it into the Snow style; so NL's Xmas style only has objects and lemming sprites.)

[ccexplore]

As for the Xmas sprites, I'm pretty sure these already exist in WinLemm style (they feature in both Lemmini and SuperLemmini, so someone must have them somewhere, or maybe they're extractable from the Lemmini directories?)

They definitely don't exist officially. If SuperLemmini has them, Tsyu may have created them himself, or found them as part of some Lemmini fan-created content. They also could be direct upscales of the low-res sprites, or direct recolors of the non-xmas sprites.

AFAIK WinLemm only ever has Lemmings and ONML levels, it never featured any of the Xmas levels let alone having custom Xmas lemmings sprites.  The Xmas lemmings sprites (at least in the official Lemmings games; no idea about SuperLemmini) are not just recolors, they also each wear a festive Santa-like cap.

Now, Mac Lemmings is hi-res and Mac does have Xmas Lemmings, so it might be possible to try taking the sprites there (I believe I already extracted and uploaded them all here somewhere; do a search and see.  If not, let me see if I can do anything about it soon.), although they might be subtly different enough from WinLemm's that I don't know how well they'd mesh with WinLemm's hi-res regular ones.  At a minimum you might need to tweak the palette slightly.

[namida]

Now, Mac Lemmings is hi-res and Mac does have Xmas Lemmings, so it might be possible to try taking the sprites there (I believe I already extracted and uploaded them all here somewhere; do a search and see.  If not, let me see if I can do anything about it soon.), although they might be subtly different enough from WinLemm's that I don't know how well they'd mesh with WinLemm's hi-res regular ones.  At a minimum you might need to tweak the palette slightly.

This last part shouldn't be a particularly huge problem, as any single level is only going to feature one set of lemming sprites on-screen at a time. As long as they look good in and of themself, they should be fine.

If it is too inconsistent to the point that even over several levels it feels awkward, perhaps the Mac version could also be used as the source of the high-res regular lemming sprites.

An edge case to consider: What happens in the case of a style that specifies custom lemming sprites, and the user is in high-res mode, but that style lacks high-res custom lemming sprites. Is the preferred behaviour here to use the low-res custom sprites, or the high-res default sprites?

I would also like to stress again that this is all theoretical at this stage. I'm not making any definite promises of implementing high-res support - although of course, as stated, I'm absolutely happy to integrate code if it gets written. And I'm not saying for sure I'll never implement the support, just that it's not currently a priority.

[WillLem]

As for the Xmas sprites, I'm pretty sure these already exist in WinLemm style (they feature in both Lemmini and SuperLemmini, so someone must have them somewhere, or maybe they're extractable from the Lemmini directories?)

They definitely don't exist officially. If SuperLemmini has them, Tsyu may have created them himself, or found them as part of some Lemmini fan-created content. They also could be direct upscales of the low-res sprites, or direct recolors of the non-xmas sprites.

OK, I have managed to extract the Xmas sprites & all graphics sets from SuperLemmini. At the very least I can use these as a guide/template to help create my own.

If you haven't already, you might want to try out the new skills in-game too, either by playing content that contains it (Lemmings Plus VI is a good one that's not too hard, although it doesn't use the Shimmier skill - the Shimmier is a very recent addition and wasn't in NL yet when LPVI came out, and was only included in a stable release about a month ago; I don't really think there is much content that does use it yet). It might be easier to think about how such sprites should look after seeing them in action.

The Disarmer currently has a graphic nearly identical to the Digger. We need a unique sprite for it even at low-res, but no one has made one yet.

I've given most of the new skills a try now, I'll get to work on some upscales of those using the WinLemm sprites as a guide. Also happy to look at doing a low & hi-res sprite set for the Disarmer, however I've played my way through the sane Lemmings Plus VI levels and haven't yet seen the Disarmer skill in action. Can you point me to a level which features this skill?

(As an aside, I've downloaded the NeoLemmix Introduction level pack and placed it into the 'levels' directory, but it doesn't appear in the level select list. I tried "Add Content To List" but it doesn't appear as a supported file...)

Now, Mac Lemmings is hi-res and Mac does have Xmas Lemmings, so it might be possible to try taking the sprites there (I believe I already extracted and uploaded them all here somewhere; do a search and see.  If not, let me see if I can do anything about it soon.), although they might be subtly different enough from WinLemm's that I don't know how well they'd mesh with WinLemm's hi-res regular ones.  At a minimum you might need to tweak the palette slightly.

This last part shouldn't be a particularly huge problem, as any single level is only going to feature one set of lemming sprites on-screen at a time. As long as they look good in and of themself, they should be fine.

If it is too inconsistent to the point that even over several levels it feels awkward, perhaps the Mac version could also be used as the source of the high-res regular lemming sprites.

An edge case to consider: What happens in the case of a style that specifies custom lemming sprites, and the user is in high-res mode, but that style lacks high-res custom lemming sprites. Is the preferred behaviour here to use the low-res custom sprites, or the high-res default sprites?

I would also like to stress again that this is all theoretical at this stage. I'm not making any definite promises of implementing high-res support - although of course, as stated, I'm absolutely happy to integrate code if it gets written. And I'm not saying for sure I'll never implement the support, just that it's not currently a priority.

None of this should be a problem - as mentioned, I now have all sprites & graphics from SL including the Xmas set (these are all great, as long as they work with low-res physics we should be good to go!), and I'm happy to create anything that doesn't yet exist by closely mimicking this style. (Furthermore, I also have all of the Mac graphics as uploaded by ccexplore, just in case!)

I understand that hi-res support isn't a priority btw, but I am happy to at least get the basic graphics together. It would then be up to you if you wanted to do anything with them as I have no coding experience at all. I'd be willing to learn though if it's just a few simple commands/tweaks to existing code.

Nice to be talking about it, anyways. It's refreshing to know that, as a developer, you're listening to feedback and at least discussing it.

[IchoTolot]

I don't really care for high-res graphics, but I don't oppose them being an option. I would most likely stay with the lower res as I like to be able to see, control and analyse every pixel of a level to be able to precisely form the solution, may it be when creating levels or solve other people's content. When I want better graphics and eye candy I don't turn to lemmings (although I would still consider some tilesets eye candy ).

I would strongly oppose high-res graphics if they mean any change to existing physics though. Even if they are only an option they should be only a visual change and having 2 sets physics in an engine would be chaos. My main concern was and is always the user created content as that it stays as stable as possible. An engine without functional content is nothing after all and I don't think slightly higher res graphics are worth any sort of physics overhaul and broken level/replays. I rather have 100% functional content in the form of thousands of quality puzzles.

[Proxima]

As I grew up with the Mac version, I miss its gorgeous high-res graphics (particularly the skill panel) and would love to use them in my own packs. Lix is great, but it doesn't have the original Lemmings graphics (or music) because Simon prefers to avoid copyright infringement.

Considering the various options, I think it's far better for this to happen as part of NL rather than a separate program, because NL has many quality-of-life features that I would miss if they were not present (e.g. framestepping, replays, excellent editor UI). And there's all the new skills and objects, which I don't use much myself, but they mean that HNE (hypothetical new engine) would not be able to load most NL content, so I'd have to maintain copies of three separate engines and content for each. Alternatively, HNE could adopt the NL features, but then I don't see much difference between this and option 1, except that whoever programs HNE would be redoing a lot of already-done work.

I'm definitely against reviving SuperLemmini, because again, it doesn't have the quality-of-life features, and it doesn't feel right for someone else to "adopt" SL and add features to it when the project has an owner who is currently inactive. If he came back and gave permission, that would be a different story.

I don't have anything personally against leaving to the level author to pick lo-res vs hi-res, but I feel like if we do that, inevitably someone like WillLem will next be pushing for some way to override that preset choice anyway and ask to be able to play a level authored lo-res with the hi-res graphics counterparts instead

It's not just about "overriding" people's choices; don't forget there is at the moment a huge wealth of content created by authors who are no longer active and cannot express a preference for how their levels should be played.

* * *

If NL does add support for high-res graphics, I would agree with Will and Icho that physics should remain low-res. Firstly, this was heavily supported by a poll at the time of the proposed "NL 2.0" revamp, so it's clear this is what the fanbase wants. Keeping low-res physics would allow playing existing content with high-res graphics, without the level authors having to do any maintenance -- as well as keeping things simple for designers of new content (which includes myself, as I have two packs currently in progress).

[WillLem]

As I grew up with the Mac version, I miss its gorgeous high-res graphics (particularly the skill panel) and would love to use them in my own packs. Lix is great, but it doesn't have the original Lemmings graphics (or music) because Simon prefers to avoid copyright infringement.

Considering the various options, I think it's far better for this to happen as part of NL rather than a separate program, because NL has many quality-of-life features that I would miss if they were not present (e.g. framestepping, replays, excellent editor UI). And there's all the new skills and objects, which I don't use much myself, but they mean that HNE (hypothetical new engine) would not be able to load most NL content, so I'd have to maintain copies of three separate engines and content for each. Alternatively, HNE could adopt the NL features, but then I don't see much difference between this and option 1, except that whoever programs HNE would be redoing a lot of already-done work.

I'm definitely against reviving SuperLemmini, because again, it doesn't have the quality-of-life features, and it doesn't feel right for someone else to "adopt" SL and add features to it when the project has an owner who is currently inactive. If he came back and gave permission, that would be a different story.

Totally agree with all of this. Lix, whilst a good alternative, just isn't the Lemmings we know and love.

And, NL is a fantastic engine. Better to adapt it slightly than build a totally new one.

The only thing I would say is that SuperLemmini is a great platform for the game, and remains faithful to the original in terms of its emphasis on execution as well as puzzle solving. It's not perfect, but it doesn't deserve to fall by the wayside completely. I would suggest that adding its sprites & graphics to NL (it could even be called "Lemmini Mode") and allowing the user to customize the in-game control panel to suit their playing style may be a way to keep what's good about it without having to continue maintaining it as a separate platform.

[WillLem]

I would strongly oppose high-res graphics if they mean any change to existing physics though. Even if they are only an option they should be only a visual change and having 2 sets physics in an engine would be chaos. My main concern was and is always the user created content as that it stays as stable as possible. An engine without functional content is nothing after all and I don't think slightly higher res graphics are worth any sort of physics overhaul and broken level/replays. I rather have 100% functional content in the form of thousands of quality puzzles.

If NL does add support for high-res graphics, I would agree with Will and Icho that physics should remain low-res. Firstly, this was heavily supported by a poll at the time of the proposed "NL 2.0" revamp, so it's clear this is what the fanbase wants. Keeping low-res physics would allow playing existing content with high-res graphics, without the level authors having to do any maintenance -- as well as keeping things simple for designers of new content (which includes myself, as I have two packs currently in progress).

I think we can all agree that the physics should remain the same. Namida has already made it very clear that he's opposed to changing the physics of the game. If it's possible to overlay hi-res sprites & graphics without altering the physics, great! And tbh by hi-res I basically mean the SuperLemmini/WinLemm graphics sets, which mostly already exist and are already very familiar with everyone on the forum. I see no reason why those graphics couldn't be used, even for user-created content.

I guess if there's an instance where a user has made custom backgrounds & graphics in low-res, the hi-res Lemmings sprites might look out of place. But a simple fix to this would be to allow the user to specify whether they want to create in hi or low-res, and whether they want the level to be playable by others in hi or low-res. That way, everyone has the luxury of choice, and if a creator want to put out low-res-only content (or vice versa), they can! Their levels would always exist in the intended format.

[WillLem]

By way of bringing a bit of action to all this, @Namida - here are the completed hi-res custom sprites for Ascender, Reacher, Stoner and Swimmer. These were the easiest to get started with, if you like these then I'll keep going with the others and get a full gfx/sprites/styles pack together as soon as I can.

Let me know what you think!

-WillLem

EDIT: I have now moved these to the NeoLemmix Graphics Sets message board. Seemed more appropriate

[namida]

Ascender should already exist from WinLemm or Mac sprites. It's just known by a different name in older engines, specifically "Jumper". It's the animation when lemmings step up a height of 3px or more while walking.

I'll also have to put a stop right there on using any assets taken directly from, or extracted using, SuperLemmini - SuperLemmini's licence does not allow for us to do this, and I'd prefer to respect the licence terms of other fanmade engines. If we want to use any graphics, we need to extract them from an official game directly, or create them ourselves. I have in the past successfully been able to extract graphics from WinLemm; not sure if I posted the extraction tool and/or the extracted files anywhere, but I don't remember it being particularly tricky so if I can hunt down the format documentation, I can likely write an extractor again. For Xmas sprites, we would need to either make these ourselves, upscale the existing ones, or find a way to extract them from the Mac version.

I would strongly oppose high-res graphics if they mean any change to existing physics though. Even if they are only an option they should be only a visual change and having 2 sets physics in an engine would be chaos. My main concern was and is always the user created content as that it stays as stable as possible. An engine without functional content is nothing after all and I don't think slightly higher res graphics are worth any sort of physics overhaul and broken level/replays. I rather have 100% functional content in the form of thousands of quality puzzles.

As long as everyone is happy with a requirement of "every graphic set must have a low-res version (high-res version is optional)", I believe I could do this without any physics impact whatsoever. This requirement would make things easier anyway, as I wouldn't necesserially need to have the editor also support high-res mode.

[ccexplore]

For Xmas sprites, we would need to either make these ourselves, upscale the existing ones, or find a way to extract them from the Mac version.

Extracting from Mac should already be done: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4078.msg73863#msg73863.  Let me know if the Xmas Lemmings sprites are missing in the attachment.

[namida]

For Xmas sprites, we would need to either make these ourselves, upscale the existing ones, or find a way to extract them from the Mac version.

Extracting from Mac should already be done: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4078.msg73863#msg73863.  Let me know if the Xmas Lemmings sprites are missing in the attachment.

Hm, yeah, there's a bit of a style difference from the WinLemm ones, although I don't see any reason they wouldn't be at least useable.

[WillLem]

I'll also have to put a stop right there on using any assets taken directly from, or extracted using, SuperLemmini - SuperLemmini's licence does not allow for us to do this, and I'd prefer to respect the licence terms of other fanmade engines. If we want to use any graphics, we need to extract them from an official game directly, or create them ourselves. I have in the past successfully been able to extract graphics from WinLemm; not sure if I posted the extraction tool and/or the extracted files anywhere, but I don't remember it being particularly tricky so if I can hunt down the format documentation, I can likely write an extractor again. For Xmas sprites, we would need to either make these ourselves, upscale the existing ones, or find a way to extract them from the Mac version.

Hm, yeah, there's a bit of a style difference from the WinLemm ones, although I don't see any reason they wouldn't be at least useable.

I've already got all of the WinLemm sprites and graphics extracted so no worries there. I'm pretty certain that SuperLemmini got most of its level/lemming graphics from WinLemm - they look identical! The only thing I'd really need to take from SuperLemmini is the Xmas sprites. I've had a look at the Mac ones and they're not that great tbh. Plus, I would agree that the style difference is too noticeable. If we're going to do this, let's do it properly.

Is anyone in contact with Tsyu so we can ask him directly if he's OK for us to use the SL Xmas sprites? It would save a lot of time and effort! If not, I'm happy to recreate these myself, I'll make my own versions by modifying the WinLemm default sprites and just using the SuperLemmini ones as a guide for pixel placement etc.

Quick question regarding the Xmas sprites - shall I also make Xmas versions of all the NL skills (Glider, Platformer, etc)?

[ccexplore]

Hm, yeah, there's a bit of a style difference from the WinLemm ones, although I don't see any reason they wouldn't be at least useable.

Well, at least for Xmas Lemmings sprites, I think the Mac ones are your only choice for hi-res, since we know there are no WinLemm version, and the SuperLemmini ones are definitely not Mac and might possibly be created by author of SuperLemmini, and therefore potentially subjected to same licensing issues you alluded to earlier.  The SuperLemmini Xmas ones are also kind of crappy anyway IMO.

[WillLem]

Hm, yeah, there's a bit of a style difference from the WinLemm ones, although I don't see any reason they wouldn't be at least useable.

Well, at least for Xmas Lemmings sprites, I think the Mac ones are your only choice for hi-res, since we know there are no WinLemm version, and the SuperLemmini ones are definitely not Mac and might possibly be created by author of SuperLemmini, and therefore potentially subjected to same licensing issues you alluded to earlier.  The SuperLemmini Xmas ones are also kind of crappy anyway IMO.

OK... I'll do my own using the WinLemm sprites as a guide. Might take a while to get those finished, I'll concentrate on the regular ones for now.

Btw, which level(s) is/are best to see the Disarmer, Fencer and Shimmier skills in action? If I know exactly what they're for it'll be easier to build the sprites.

[Proxima]

Btw, which level(s) is/are best to see the Disarmer, Fencer and Shimmier skills in action? If I know exactly what they're for it'll be easier to build the sprites.

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