Author Topic: Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]  (Read 53734 times)

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Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2020, 09:03:18 PM »
Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post.

Just played it now. Nice work! :thumbsup: However, the Author's name "Amiga Lemmings" wasn't filled in. That should be easy to fix. May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2020, 09:04:53 PM »
May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

That would make it harder to trap the lemmings with a builder wall, in case the player wants to do that.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2020, 03:01:49 PM »
Quote from: Proxima
In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle
---
"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will... keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked

I voted this way principally because I agree that it's good to have a builders-only level, and this is both an interesting puzzle and a great level to play pause-free. It does kind of stand out as a "naughty" level because of the stacked hatches thing, but as you've mentioned most of the community seem to be generally OK with stacked hatches, depending on how they're used.

The Boiler Room is a great level, though, and the Redux version of it is decent. So... either way is good, but I've voted Timing because I just have more solid reasons for thinking it should be included.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels

Yeah, fair enough. Redux is not really a remix pack and I suppose what I'm suggesting constitutes a remix level. Redux is more like a remastered greatest hits :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #123 on: August 05, 2020, 12:20:11 PM »
"The Boiler Room" wins 7-5 after a very exciting contest :P It was neck and neck for a long while, then TBR pulled ahead, then WillLem's vote closed the gap a little so I couldn't call it early, but still, a clear enough winner.

For fans of "It's all a matter of timing", I've made a decision. Not only will the level still appear in the NeoLemmix conversions of the full levelpacks, but since the ABC and ABCB versions are substantially different and both did appear in official versions of ONML, I will keep both as separate levels. (Right now currently leaning towards ABCB for Havoc 12 and the ABC version in Extra Levels, but that's a decision for later.)

So, to recap, the level selection and ordering are absolutely final now. We will keep to 160 levels, with "It's all a matter of timing" replaced with "The Boiler Room" and no other selection changes. Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" and Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please" will switch places, with no other ordering changes.

All that's left is to make a final decision regarding talismans. I'll make another post going over the options and put up a poll later today.

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2020, 09:47:05 AM »
Just got the NeoLemmix update from the website; However V12.9.3 has replaced Proxima's updated changes that I made. >:( I've gone ahead and made all the changes (again) and have attached the updated level pack below. Now we just need the website to upload the updared content.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #125 on: November 07, 2020, 12:06:43 PM »
I've updated the first post of the topic with the latest version of Lemmings Redux, which is compatible with NeoLemmix 12.10.

Changes:

* The Boiler Room has replaced It's all a matter of timing as Lunatic 2. (NB: I am still maintaining a separate conversion of original Lemmings for NeoLemmix, and this will contain It's all a matter of timing in both its 3-hatch and 4-hatch versions. It will, however, be a while before I have time to post an update, so please be patient.)
* Where Lemmings Dare has switched places with With a twist of lemming, please, so the former is now Manic 31 and the latter is now Manic 11.
* If at first you don't succeed has no water, which was a decision made a long time ago, but for some reason the version with water was still included in the pack up to now.
* Which one are you trying to get? has only 3 trapdoors, so 10 lemmings will drop from each.

No changes have been made as yet regarding talismans. Since there won't be time to make decisions and get an absolutely final version of Redux ready before NL 12.10's stable version, I will wait for the stable version to be out and then re-post a summary of where we are up to with talismans and post a poll.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2020, 01:49:14 PM »
12.10 stable is out! :thumbsup: It's time to start wrapping up talisman selection so that we can produce a once-and-for-all final version of Lemmings Redux.

Discussion of new talismans was mostly on pages 2-4 of this topic, with this post in particular being a summary of the situation so far (which hasn't changed since then). The changes to level selection mostly don't affect talismans: none were proposed for "It's all a matter of timing", and the talisman on "Which one are you trying to get?" still works. As for "The Boiler Room", possible talismans would be "save 49/50", "no blockers" or "6 builders"; I'm fairly neutral on whether any of those should be chosen.

There are currently 36 talismans. Only a couple have been suggested for possible removal: "The Great Lemming Caper" no blockers, and "PoP YoR ToP" bombers only (since the latter is not possible on the original game). The above-linked post contains a list of 15 possible new talismans, mostly being my own selection from the max-saved and SYCLW challenges.

Since there hasn't been much input from anyone else as to which talismans to select, I've decided to put up a poll for how many talismans we should have, and once that's settled, we can decide on which ones. Please note: you can select up to 3 options, so that if you think the number of talismans should be in the range 40-48, you can select "40", "44" and "48". Please don't abuse this by making an incoherent vote such as "36", "48" and "50".

This vote is not strictly binding. If, for example, 44 wins, then I'll take it we should include some but not all of the proposed new talismans, and run further discussion on that basis; the final number won't necessarily be 44 exactly (and might not even be a multiple of 4).

32: We would have to remove four existing talismans, but this would mean the number of talismans would be exactly 1/5 of the number of levels.
36: The current number. If this wins, I will still ask for consideration on whether we should remove some existing talismans in favour of new ones.
40: Exactly 1/4 of the number of levels.
44: We would select some but not all of the proposed new talismans.
48: We would accept nearly all of the proposed new talismans, in addition to cutting some existing ones.
50: This is a nice round number and an easy target to arrive at: we could accept all the new talismans and cut "PoP YoR ToP" to arrive at 50 exactly.
More than 50: This would require finding additional new talismans as well as my proposed list.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2020, 07:29:46 PM »
If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.

So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2020, 09:28:11 PM »
I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

If you have time, could you look through my list of 15 (linked in the post above) and tell me which ones from those you consider worthwhile?

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2020, 05:59:49 PM »
This may have been posted in May, but seeing this properly for the first time, thanks for this awesome list! :thumbsup: I'm enjoying most of these talismans and delving each one into detail. Looking forward to doing more of this, but here are the first five talismans I'm going to talk about. Some of my replays are attached too.

{1} Chill out! - No climbers
{2} Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
{3} No justice for the hero - Save 100%
{4} Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
{5} Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2020, 03:34:28 PM »
Now, the rest of the levels. I think it would be helpful to name the rank and order each of these levels appear in. But anyway, here's the last 10. Some more of my replays are attached for some of the levels, along with some more spoilery comments.

{6} SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
{7} Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
{8} ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
{9} Steel Block Party - No builders
{10} Be more than just a number - Save 100%
{11} Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
{12} SEGA Four - No climbers
{13} With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
{14} Temple of Love - Save 29/30
{15} Save Me - Save 45/50

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, only three talismans I thoroughly disagree with so far. Adding all my agreeable ones in to the existing lot would increase the tally to 48, which makes a nice multiple of three. However, I appear to be the only one so far to have voted for three options: 40, 44 and 48.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2020, 04:02:21 PM »
{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback! :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2020, 07:01:20 PM »
Quote
* Chill out! - No climbers

Is there any other talisman currently, that requires this trick? If not, I would think this one is worth adding. If there is, I would vote against it, as there's basically nothing to this beyond that one trick.

Quote
* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers

I'd go for No Diggers.

Quote
* No justice for the hero - Save 100%

I can't figure this one out.

Quote
* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners

I remember both of these being quite interesting.

Quote
* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

I'd suggest No Climbers instead.


I'll have to look at the rest later.

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Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2020, 08:11:19 PM »
{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback! :thumbsup:

No problem, Proxima.

And whoops, that was a rather hilarious mistake that was well spotted on {8}! Also, as I apparently had no replay attached for {2}, my comments are referring to the "no diggers" talisman. I thought I had to do both requirements here too, but using the bomber as part of the solution, I kinda forgot about it. :D

OK, time to redo {8} and a possible "No Climbers" talisman for "Going Their Separate Ways".
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Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #134 on: November 18, 2020, 07:56:49 AM »
OK, had a proper look at this today. The newly proposed ROCKY ROAD talisman (2 builders) is a long analysis, so I'll highlight the tricks required in bold. My replay is attached too. In short, it should be added as a Gold talisman.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, a bit like a Core 4 Maths A-Level question really. Just piece all the parts together, keep experimenting and you'll get the talisman. I used 17 different actions in my solution. This question really is worth at least 16 marks and an overall higher grade.
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