Poll

Which of the options in post #45 do you prefer to the current colors? (Select any combination of the three OR "None".)

Yellow for Brick style
3 (21.4%)
Red for Bubble style
4 (28.6%)
Blue for Pillar style
4 (28.6%)
None
3 (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets  (Read 10642 times)

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Offline mobius

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[SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« on: August 17, 2019, 03:13:53 PM »
So I tried making this point before with only words and it didn't work so this time I'm going to do it with pictures.

IMO; some of the default colors for the one way arrows are fine; blue for marble works great. It's clear and contrasts well with the terrain colors. But some are awful; take a look at my example pics and you tell me which one looks better. (or more importantly; which one is easier to see)

First is the default for fire:


this is another (red arrows from a L2 set, Egyptian I think)



Here is the default for rock:


now here's a a brown colored set (from one of Gronkling's sets)


--------------
I know it's now possible to add any arrows you want thanks to the new formats and I appreciate that but it's still an issue because sometimes the only thing I can find to work really well, to stand out is an odd graphic set that not everyone may have or it might be a graphic set that doesn't get updated because the person might not be around anymore. And I don't really like the idea of having a level that's only a rock level for example except for this one part of the level, the arrows being from some other random tileset and having someone unable to play the level because they didn't download that style for that tiny purpose. The other method I had of solving this problem was changing the theme of the level to another set but this has the downside of changing other things like the color of builder bricks which does not necessarily look good. Not to mention that it's just FAR EASIER if the damn default color looked good in the first place.

The color ideas I have come from Lemmini; I don't know who or why they changed the colors when making Lemmini but they made excellent choices as all of the arrows stand out really well and look really good imo. The key is to pick colors that contrast really well and can't blend in easily with the terrain; so essentially try to pick a color that doesn't exist anywhere else within the set already, or not very much. Look at the crystal set for example; the red arrows stand out (and people have commented on how good they look in the past) exactly for this reason.

Look at this example for the bubble set:
https://youtu.be/ylzQwaNRkgk?t=491
IMO the red looks FAR better than the pale default color from original Lemmings.

So here are my proposals:

marble: no change needed
pillar: change to blue the pale doesn't stand out so well especially on the lighter yellow blocks
fire: change to red?*
dirt: no change needed
crystal: no change needed
brick: change to yellow the pale color doesn't stand out at all on the pale/grey blocks and chains.
bubble: change to red the pale doesn't stand out so well on some of the lighter pieces
snow: no change needed
rock: change to brown or yellow


some of the L2 sets maybe could use a change as well but I haven't really looked into that too well yet. Many of them like Egyptian are okay imo.

*this one may be rather tricky actually because the fire set contains both a lot of blue and red but thinking about it I'm not sure what other colors would look alright in it. But imo; it's a pretty clear winner for red in that image above.

Now if everyone still thinks no change is needed or doesn't approve of any of these choices; can we get some kind of better way to choose our own color; without changing other things in the level??
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:14:29 PM by namida »
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [sug]change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 04:47:51 PM »
I totally agree.

Firstly, I've mentioned this before (I'll see if I can find the old topic in a bit) -- the editor should let us choose any one-way walls with any style. For instance, suppose mobius and I disagree over which colour Rock OWWs should be as default, only one of us will get our way, but we could both make our levels with the OWW colour we want by choosing it from another style.

Regarding specific colours: the current beige for Rock is awful. Brown is a clear improvement, but still not very clear. I would prefer a strong red -- bright yellow as mobius suggests could also work.

I prefer blue for Fire over red, but I can see that red would be advantageous if you had OWW over a large section of the blue bricks.

Offline namida

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Re: [sug]change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 08:03:50 PM »
Changing on a per level basis is unlikely. That would be a significant new feature.

However, changing the fixed colors for certain styles can definitely be done, very easily, if the community mostly agrees on a new color. One could even implement a user-side mod if they don't agree with the standard, with a single modification to theme.nxmi.

There is already precedent for deviating from the L1 colors: Snow does so.
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Offline mobius

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Re: [sug]change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 12:59:45 AM »
I don't really have a strong preference for the exact color in any case. I'm mostly concerned with the arrows being more visible and overall looking better. So if there are better suggestions than the ones I proposed, that's fine with me.

Another thing to consider is if shading or an outline is done on the arrows this will also greatly improve visibility, no matter the color.
The snow set's arrow is excellent since it really stands out, but then the snow set is mostly essentially two or so colors so-to-speak (white and green). So red really stands out. I think Proxima's suggestion of yellow would probably be better than the brown (at least than the one I have here). I actually used yellow before in my own levels but couldn't find where I got them atm.
The fire set, as I said, is a bit of a tricky case. And I forgot to point this out but in my pic; you'll notice that those red arrows have a white highlight on them, which is partly what aids in them standing out. If the blue arrows had this it might also help.
I also kind of liked the black arrows from Genesis (but every set had this, I think? they had no color in the whole game)
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Offline namida

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Re: [sug]change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 01:46:07 AM »
I can definitely look into adding an outline.
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Offline mobius

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Re: [sug]change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2019, 04:07:15 PM »
So I just firgued out (which I should've bothered to figure out long ago) that you can easily edit the colors yourself.

Go to style\ style of your choosing\ open the "theme.nxtm"
this specifies all of the custom color choices. Simply change the one marked "ONE_WAYS".

Here's a site that gives example colors, and can kind of give you an idea how the code works:
https://www.color-hex.com/

note that this does not change their appearance in the editor
that's not true it does; but you must restart the editor
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 05:39:57 PM by mobius »
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 06:56:59 PM »
Okay so - no one objects to this, I take it?

Does anyone specifically have an issue with the idea of adding an outline? (This and recoloring are not mutually exclusive.)
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 08:20:44 PM »
So you mean simply having the outer contour of the arrows strengthened, or even being able to modify the colour of the outline independently of the colour of the arrows themselves?
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2019, 09:33:55 PM »
Quote
So you mean simply having the outer contour of the arrows strengthened, or even being able to modify the colour of the outline independently of the colour of the arrows themselves?

Having them independently adjustable is feasible, although my thought was more just the "have it a darker (or fixed) color".
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2019, 12:19:06 AM »
On the topic of the outline, I'd be interested in seeing a mockup of the proposed change.

If we're still considering changing the colors of the arrows, too, I'd say the proposed image for rock is still difficult to see. Outlines might help.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2019, 04:03:50 AM »
Quote
If we're still considering changing the colors of the arrows, too, I'd say the proposed image for rock is still difficult to see. Outlines might help.

All cosmetic changes can still be considered (no physics changes will be made to them).
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2019, 08:33:59 PM »
Here's two possible candidates for how they might look with outlining. (Yes, they're the wrong color for the brick style. I did this quite quickly, so didn't actually have the level's theme set to Brick.)

I'm leaning towards the bottom option, but I'm quite open to either.

Style creators still will only need to specify one color. The outline color just ends up being a darker shade of the main color.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 05:18:04 AM »
The top one looks rather thin compared to the original (even though if I had to guess it's probably the same size and the outline just creates the illusion that it's smaller).

I have no objections to the bottom, however, and think it looks good. I'd suggest starting with this and then seeing if further color changes are still needed.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 05:59:51 AM »
Quote
The top one looks rather thin compared to the original (even though if I had to guess it's probably the same size and the outline just creates the illusion that it's smaller).

Your guess is 100% correct.

Quote
I have no objections to the bottom, however, and think it looks good. I'd suggest starting with this and then seeing if further color changes are still needed.

Sorry, let me be clear - that screenshot was not in any way meant to illustrate colors for any style. It was purely to illustrate the outline.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 07:38:51 AM »
It was probably my post that is a bit unclear. I met that I liked the outline as shown in that picture, so my suggestion was to implement that outline method with the existing colors used in the sets as a starting point to see if further changes need to be made to the default colors, or if the outline is sufficient.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2019, 08:19:05 AM »
Here's 7 of the 9 official styles with the outlined OWAs. (The other two have custom one-way arrow graphics, so aren't affected by changes to the default.)
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2019, 08:25:18 AM »
Here's the same modification applied to the Fire arrows. (I don't think it would suit Crystal, plus Crystal is plenty visible as-is.)

Also attached are three possible alternate colors that work alright. I like the 3rd one (out of the alternates; ie: blue2) the best (maybe because it feels closest to the original?).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 05:39:41 PM by namida »
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2019, 10:41:59 AM »
Are all of these going to be optional? ;) These look more different from the original ones than I expected - there are probably going to be cases where people would want to use these for increased visibility, but I wouldn't want them to replace the default ones, at least not as a complete replacement, without the option of sticking to the original versions, for those who want to.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2019, 11:09:42 AM »
I like these a lot :thumbsup: Very good visibility all-round. For the Fire arrows, I agree the third one is the best; cyan stands out very well on red terrain.

Offline mobius

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2019, 05:41:41 PM »
Will we still be able to edit the colors ourselves the same way as before (in theme.nxtm)?
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2019, 05:45:29 PM »
Are all of these going to be optional? ;) These look more different from the original ones than I expected - there are probably going to be cases where people would want to use these for increased visibility, but I wouldn't want them to replace the default ones, at least not as a complete replacement, without the option of sticking to the original versions, for those who want to.

If the decision is in favor of these, they will replace the existing ones. Users are free to restore the old graphics manually in their copy of NL if they wish - these days copies of older styles downloads are preserved so you can get the graphics from those.

EDIT: If doing this though, keep in mind that any future styles that use default OWAs will likely pick their colors with the outline in mind - so if any style seems unclear without the outline, make sure it still looks unclear with the outline too before reporting an issue. And likewise, if creating your own styles that use the default OWAs, make sure the color you pick still looks good with the outline as well.

I like these a lot :thumbsup: Very good visibility all-round. For the Fire arrows, I agree the third one is the best; cyan stands out very well on red terrain.

Ah, sorry, I specifically meant the 3rd of the different color ones was my favorite - ie, the duller blue that's closer to the original, but still stands out a fair bit more. But this isn't a super strong preference, and I'm open to any of those (or another option altogether) if that's where the community preference is.

Will we still be able to edit the colors ourselves the same way as before (in theme.nxtm)?

Yes, and I'm still open to changing the default colors too if people feel this is necessary (although I suspect that, Fire aside, this won't be the case anymore - they all look pretty clear to me!).

However, you won't be able to edit the inside and outline colors separately. The outline color will always be a darker shade of the main color (the main color is what theme.nxmt will specify).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 06:06:30 PM by namida »
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2019, 06:20:10 PM »
Added a poll regarding the outline. (I'll do a separate one for the Fire arrow colors.)

Also - while I won't do a screenshot for every style, here's how the high-res outlined OWAs look (this is with custom outlined graphics created the same way as the low-res ones; not just upscaling).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 06:31:12 PM by namida »
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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2019, 10:26:24 PM »
In case I forget to check back later when that poll goes up, I like blue2 the best for Fire. It improves visibility compared no color change, while maintaining the original feel quite well compared to yellow or blue1.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2019, 02:23:11 AM »
Okay - it's pretty clear opinion is overwhelmingly in favor of the "fat" outlined arrows (only one vote for status quo, and none at all for "thin" outlined arrows), so I don't see the need to keep that poll up any longer.

Poll for the different colors for the Fire style is up.
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Offline mobius

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2019, 02:27:57 AM »
I think I voted after leaving the page open for so long that the poll had changed and as a result it registered my vote for something I didn't even realize. Is it possible to undo my vote so I can read it and vote properly?
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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2019, 03:03:48 AM »
I had a look at the L2 and L3 ones - unfortunately I didn't save the screenshots. The only thing that stood out to me was that l2_egypt and l2_shadow have custom one-way arrow objects. l2_shadow's were barely different from the default (and not different at all for the left-facing arrows), so l2_shadow will use the default ones in the future. l2_egypt's are a bit more different - I get the impression they're taken from WinLemm and downscaled? - so I'll leave them as is, unless people really think we should use the standard ones.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2019, 11:56:53 AM »
I had a look at the L2 and L3 ones - unfortunately I didn't save the screenshots. The only thing that stood out to me was that l2_egypt and l2_shadow have custom one-way arrow objects. l2_shadow's were barely different from the default (and not different at all for the left-facing arrows), so l2_shadow will use the default ones in the future. l2_egypt's are a bit more different - I get the impression they're taken from WinLemm and downscaled? - so I'll leave them as is, unless people really think we should use the standard ones.

Shadow should just have standard bright yellow ones in the normal case. Can I ask in which terms they are currently different? ???

L2 egypt ones are indeed downscaled WinLemm arrows

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2019, 05:39:49 PM »
Quote
Shadow should just have standard bright yellow ones in the normal case. Can I ask in which terms they are currently different? ???

Look at the bottom-right of each arrow in the one-way-right arrows (this must be the actual OWW_right object, not just a flipped OWW_left).
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2019, 08:44:48 PM »
Look at the bottom-right of each arrow in the one-way-right arrows (this must be the actual OWW_right object, not just a flipped OWW_left).

So just some very minor animation change needed here.

Alright then, as long as they stay bright yellow (I find them very fitting here) I am totally for this change in favor of simplicity. :)

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2019, 09:26:11 AM »
Speaking of yellow, can we get those yellow fire arrows provided in some style? Not as the default, just as an option?

With the regular, back-and-forth-moving arrows, which appear on all other official tilesets, it's easy to find surrogates that have the colour you desire for a particular level. However, the continuously-moving triangular arrows are only available in blue, to my knowledge.

So it would simply be nice to have some alternatives here as well. ;)

I do indeed like a lot of these arrows on a purely visual basis; however, I'm still a little uncomfortable with the idea of them overwriting the default arrows of at least the official tilesets - especially when they significantly change their look, by going with a completely different colour or shape. After all, not only custom packs, but also the original packs Lemmings and ONML plus all the Holiday Lemmings packs are going to be affected by this change.

I think playing the original packs should still feel as authentic as possible in NeoLemmix. Couldn't outlines in general be made an option that every player can adjust for themselves under "preferences" in the main menu? Much like the high-quality mini map, or also high-res mode, I guess? ;)

Because high-res mode is another thing that, while visually nice, alters the rough and deliberatly "cheap"-looking aesthetics of the original game. 8-)
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2019, 10:42:56 AM »
Because high-res mode is another thing that, while visually nice, alters the rough and deliberatly "cheap"-looking aesthetics of the original game. 8-)

The developers of the Mac version, as well as everyone who grew up with that version, would disagree with you there.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2019, 11:16:33 AM »
I actually did grow up with the Mac version. :P But also with the DOS and the Atari version. I think by now I've gotten so used to the DOS aesthetics of NeoLemmix that I think I might miss them when they're gone.

Anyways, the point is that high-res mode is optional, fortunately - so why shouldn't outlines around one-way arrows be as well? ;) And to be clear: Not for the level designer - they should only have one type of one-way arrows at their disposal, so that nobody can deliberately "fool" the player - but for the players themselves. So that each individual user can decide whether outlines are necessary for their subjective playing experience. Some people have better eyesight than others, after all. ;)
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2019, 05:15:45 PM »
Quote
I think playing the original packs should still feel as authentic as possible in NeoLemmix. Couldn't outlines in general be made an option that every player can adjust for themselves under "preferences" in the main menu? Much like the high-quality mini map, or also high-res mode, I guess? ;)

Because high-res mode is another thing that, while visually nice, alters the rough and deliberatly "cheap"-looking aesthetics of the original game.

High-res mode can make it harder to deduce physics just by looking (while testing it out, I've definitely found I have to activate clear physics mode a bit more often than usual), and is more CPU and memory intensive. High-quality minimap has no direct drawbacks, but it can be extremely CPU-intensive (it's not much worse than regular minimap for memory) and weaker PCs will struggle to keep up. Those two features need to be optional for those reasons.

On the other hand, this change to one-way arrows will have negligable, if any, performance impact; nor do they make the visuals harder to understand in any way (the opposite, in fact). The only disadvantage is that some people might prefer the older appearance - and based on the poll results, where we had only one vote for the status quo against several for adding the outlines, it doesn't sound like this is many people. The final nail in the coffin for me adding an option, is the fact that - as mentioned earlier in the topic - an "option" still exists anyway, in the form of that you can simply mod your copy of NeoLemmix by replacing the new outlined OWW graphics with the non-outlined ones from an older copy of the styles download - nothing's changing with regards to their physics, only their visuals, so this will work fine.

I'll note that NeoLemmix already isn't true to DOS in terms of one-way arrows. Most of the one-way arrows match the colors that DOS uses in the data files, but DOS doesn't actually use this color as-is when rendering "only on terrain" objects, so in practice they end up a different color. Even Lemmix does not accurately reproduce this effect (which is why NeoLemmix never did either). Even beyond that, some have also had manual color changes from what DOS's data specifies. Of course, NeoLemmix never claimed to be "accurate to DOS" in any way, just to have a "DOS-like feel", and even that has always come second to clarity / user-friendliness.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2019, 06:17:05 PM »
I for my part would even say the outline version of the arrows looks way better than the old version.

I consider this as a straight upgrade and would also highly doubt any person would be totally turned off over slightly different OWWs.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2019, 05:54:52 AM »
While it's not as clear-cut, it also looks like the dark cyan arrows for orig_fire are the preference too, so looks like those will be sticking. I'd say that more or less wraps up this matter, then?
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2019, 03:08:49 PM »
I would still suggest that Rock should use the same red colour as Snow.

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 06:57:46 PM »
Alright, let's see what people think. Here's a preview. This uses exactly the same shade of red as Snow does.

Left side is low-res, right side is high-res.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2019, 01:41:40 AM »
I'm not sure I really like either option. How would blue or yellow look?

Offline Minim

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2019, 07:39:38 AM »
I think the red chosen is a bit too dark. A lighter red would've been a little bit better.
As for Dullstar's post, I believe blue will look better for rock. A Royal blue will really distinguish the tones between the rocks, gems and branches.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2019, 09:28:07 AM »
Here's the thing: The red looks great on the rocks or the emeralds, but it's harder to spot on the roots / branches than the white, of course.

Is it still possible to combine arrows of different colours in one and the same level, anyway? This formerly could be done by simply taking one-way arrows from a different tileset, because every tileset had separate ones. But now, they usually switch to whatever is the "theme" colour of the tileset, don't they? Meaning you can of course still use differently-shaped arrows by taking them from various tilesets, but whenever you use arrows from any tileset that refers to the default ones, they all switch to the same colour, don't they?

Wouldn't it be possible to "simply" select a colour for each individual one-way-arrow object in a level by specifying the colour in the text file? i.e. basically the same way it is done with the reversal of colours for athletes or zombies - or, to my knowledge, also with the recolouring of lemmings sprites in general, as of recently.

This would probably be a lot of work to program initially, but once implemented, it would allow to select perfectly visible colours for every one-way-arrow object in a level, that can be individually adjusted by whatever thet terrain in the background looks like. ;)
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2019, 01:10:24 PM »
I made a mockup of blue and yellow arrows by extracting colors from the fire proposals from earlier. I like the blue ones the best.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2019, 05:06:20 PM »
On a personal level: I'm not at all a fan of those two new proposals - to me it's a close call between red and white, pretty much with white winning just on "if there's no huge advantage, keep it as is". But it's not a big enough deal to me to make this a "putting my foot down, what I say goes" situation, so...

On a developer level: Poll updated to include these two new proposals. Votes have been cleared, so please vote again if you prefer white or red. If there's a clear winner (and no solid reasoning-based argument against that winner) it'll happen; if there's a tie (or something like a one-vote difference) I'll put up another poll. We've got plenty of time until the next update, even if we package this into a regular styles update (which is 100% possible), so no rush.
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2019, 05:20:58 PM »
Quote
Is it still possible to combine arrows of different colours in one and the same level, anyway? This formerly could be done by simply taking one-way arrows from a different tileset, because every tileset had separate ones. But now, they usually switch to whatever is the "theme" colour of the tileset, don't they? Meaning you can of course still use differently-shaped arrows by taking them from various tilesets, but whenever you use arrows from any tileset that refers to the default ones, they all switch to the same colour, don't they?

This falls well into "not worth the effort" territory. First, the editor would need a color picker - maybe not too difficult, I assume this is a common enough need that there's something open-source out there, or something already provided by the .NET runtimes. The editor already recolors one-way-arrows on the fly, so that part isn't too much of a problem - just have to make sure each one's recoloring to a different color. However, NL does not. It recolors the arrow graphics during loading, and then uses the recolored graphic during gameplay, rather than recoloring on the fly. (The same is true for pickup skills, as well as for style-based (but not state-based, which IS on-the-fly) recoloring of lemmings.) And this is the really tedious part - this would basically be an entire rewrite of how recoloring works on NL's side, and on top of this it would have a performance impact (though probably not too severe - but especially with high-res mode, it's an "every bit counts" situation, as NL's rendering is CPU-based and already ends up quite CPU-intensive, especially on larger resolutions; ideally I'd like to do a rewrite in the future using MonoGame or something else that can do GPU-based rendering, but that's another huge task and I almost feel, if I was going to go to that extent, my effort would be better spent on something original).

And that's without getting into the question of abuse potential. Sure, it's currently possible with workarounds, but the ways it'd be achieved are generally obscure enough that anyone who can figure it out without asking (and thus drawing attention to what they want to do, at which point the reason it's a bad idea gets explained), would already be familiar enough with NL culture in general to know they shouldn't do it - or at least, shouldn't do it without a very good special-case reason.

Two possible alternate forms which mitigate, but don't entirely solve, the above issues (and these two are mutually incompatible with each other):
- No outright "pick an arbitrary color", just "it'll use the color of the style selected at the time the object was placed". This averts the need for a color picker in the editor, and is somewhat of an obstacle (though not a huge one) to abuse of the feature, but the biggest problem (rendering on the NL side) is still a thing.
- Instead of setting it per-object, set it per-level. NL's "recolor once during load" setup could still work with this, though some minor tweaks to how it works would be needed. In general, this would be much simpler to implement. However, abuse potential is still in (almost) full force with this approach.

At any rate, this is a different suggestion from tidying up the official ones in their default colors, so it should have a separate topic if you really think adding it is justified. As usual, you're welcome to create the topic (and I might change my mind if there's really strong support for it), but I don't expect this will actually happen.
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2019, 02:36:46 AM »
Looks like the preference is very strongly in favor of blue. Guess that's what we're going with.

Does anyone feel there's any further cases that need to be considered?
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2019, 04:41:14 AM »
I had another look at the sets mobius listed in the opening post. Fire and Rock have been dealt with, so that leaves Pillar, Brick and Bubble.

Pillar: I like these arrows as they are and I'm not wild about mobius's suggestion of blue (assuming he means a similar blue to the Marble arrows), but it could be worth making a screenshot to see what blue would actually look like.

Brick: The current beige looks fine on the red bricks, but weak on all the grey material. Mobius suggests yellow, which could work, if it's a bright yellow, not the same shade as the Dirt arrows.

Bubble: The current arrows are a little weak, but I can't say whether I would prefer mobius's suggestion of red without seeing a screenshot.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2019, 08:24:01 PM »
Here's screenshots for those three. If anyone thinks any of these are worth following up on, let me know and I'll put a poll up.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »
I think these are all improvements over the originals.

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2019, 06:13:51 PM »
I've put a poll up. Please vote for "None" rather than not voting if you feel that none of them are preferable to the original; otherwise, please vote for whichever ones you do think are better. (The "None" option is there so I can still look at total # of people voted.)
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2020, 07:56:43 AM »
So far, all the results are quite borderline between change vs don't change - Brick leaning a bit more towards "not change" than the others. I'll leave this one open a bit longer.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2020, 05:29:46 PM »
With how close the votes are, that makes me think even more that it's worth finding some workaround to allow the designer to choose how they want their arrows. I think it would be sufficient for it to be per-level (not per-object), and it could be selecting a colour from a small menu of choices rather than a true colour picker.

I have to admit, even though yellow for Brick was originally my suggestion, now that I've seen it I don't think it works at all (it barely gains visibility on the pale terrain, and loses the nice look of the existing arrows on the red brick) and I would be disappointed if that was enforced from now on.

For the other two -- I voted for changing Bubble, although I think it's a close call. I voted against changing Pillar, but in this case I don't have a strong feeling against the blue arrows.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2020, 10:38:27 AM »
Proxima's suggestion would probably make it easier to find a color that works, since a lot of levels might only use the arrows on one types of terrain, in which case it's not necessary to have a color that is clearly visible on all terrain types and also still looks good, which has proven difficult in sets where there are multiple highly contrasting colors of terrain. I think having the sets have a default would still be convenient for level designers, but a convenient way to override these defaults on a per-level basis that doesn't alter the colors of things such as builders or lemming sprites (like the current workaround of selecting a different style than the one the terrain primarily comes from) would be very useful.

I do think the yellow example is a better yellow for the menu than the dirt yellow if we give limited options instead of a true color picker.

IIRC clear physics already recolors the arrows, which, combined with the outlines, should place a limitation on the amount of design trolling possible, and if it's still a concern there could be a player option to force the style default to be used.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2020, 01:09:47 AM »
So, it looks like the Pillar / Bubble changes are about 50/50, while the Brick change is less popular.

End results here:
- Brick will not be changing
- Pillar and Bubble, I will take another look at it myself at some point (without reading the topic again, so it's just a natural "which one looks better?") and make the final call based on my thoughts there
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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2020, 06:21:45 PM »
After taking another look at this, I feel that Pillar's change to blue is a good idea, but that Bubble is better off remaining as-is.

I think that wraps this up, then?
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG][CONTENT] change default arrow colors of original sets
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2020, 06:42:34 PM »
Yes, I'd be fine with that. I think I've even seen blue arrows on the Pillar tileset before - maybe on the Mac version?
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels