Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]  (Read 70723 times)

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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #225 on: July 09, 2020, 06:52:25 PM »
RE: Icholotot

if you happen to have Dovelems maso 18(Take a step ahead) and Bonus 1(Pletorah's Temple) replays that would be cool tool.

those 2 I tried to solve just too hard for me. I managed to solve Maso 16 (Complete Auturky) which was broken originally.

all the other replays from Dovelems are Good and all Pimolems replays are good so don't need those.

so just need those 2 replays from Dovelems.

Und Danke fur Alles.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #226 on: July 09, 2020, 08:14:55 PM »
RE: Icholotot
thanks alot now I have all your neolemmix replays, Reunion, United, Pimolems and now Dovelems. also thanks for the pm of the 2 dovelem replays that I were missing. now all i need is the replays when you get around it for World tour legend(minus 39,40) and groupie(minus 40). I have all of yours replays for the other ranks of world tour.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #227 on: July 09, 2020, 09:10:18 PM »
and Kaywhyn it's ok about the replays. take your time. I have all icholotots 11.1 replays even for genecide and bonus which you haven't completed yet. although their certainly will be changes so even the 11.1 ones i have they will change. At least I'm glad someone is working on this pack, so I know that when changes happen I will hopefully get the final versions replays whether from yours or icholotot's. as I stated I'm lousy at solving even slighty medium ones. plus I just don't have the patience to attempt these not only are they extremely difficult but so many levels are long in time. also many maps like you said are huge (ie Neutrality 40 which I couldn't even come close to solving. But I love watching these levels. His maps are gorgeous and his tunes are awesome.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #228 on: July 09, 2020, 11:52:51 PM »
@admins: Please move eric's post above to the Dovelems topic.

@eric FYI, if you want to post/discuss Dovelems, go to https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3242.0 instead. I'm sure Icho would appreciate it if we could limit discussions here to just about the United pack, since that's what this topic is for. Just a way to keep everything in their own discussion topics.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #229 on: July 10, 2020, 01:51:15 AM »
sorry about that Kaywhyn. Here will be only from now on be about united. It's just I'm kinda new at this forum stuff. i transfered it myself by copying it to dovelems and removing it here.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 01:56:40 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2020, 02:06:34 AM »
No worries, eric. At least you're slowly becoming familiar with everything here on the site. You're good, man. Nothing wrong with your posts at all, some are just not in the right place/topic. I myself certainly wouldn't want different level pack discussions to be mixed up in a thread that's supposed to be about United. It's just like it doesn't matter how well written your paper is. If it's off-topic, I would give it a score of 0 or 1 (I'm a math teacher, not an English teacher). This is definitely a friendly bunch who are willing to help out in any way they can.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #231 on: July 10, 2020, 02:10:31 AM »
a math teacher huh. maybe that explains partly why you're so good at doing these United Levels. you can figure out ways to get lemmings to their destination

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #232 on: July 10, 2020, 05:14:02 AM »
I attribute it more to the experience I have gained from all the many custom level packs I've played over the years. That's what has increased my puzzle solving abilities tremendously. Also, Icho's Neolemmix Tutorial pack has helped me a lot with some of the harder United levels. Yes, many of the United levels have been hard for me and have slowed my progress, but so far they all haven't been anything I couldn't handle. Even now, I've managed to solve a few Genocide levels, but I'm still nervous about what's to come and whether I'll be able to handle them. In any case, since I'm already quite far into United and am somewhat close to the end, I'm going to keep going until I finally beat the pack, or the pack beats me.

Really, it's just all about knowing which skills will help in each situation and which ones won't and whether it's possible to save skills for someplace else. For many of the United levels I got stuck on, a lot of the time I kept thinking I'm a skill short, I simply approached the level incorrectly, or I can't let go of a solution that I think should work but it ultimately won't. In the third case, sometimes it takes me a while to find a novel, different approach to the level due to how I've tried the same route that keeps failing. A really good example is War 36. In my feedback, I said that I constantly kept fighting between two possible routes, one which almost works but doesn't because the fall is fatal by 1 pixel, but I couldn't let this one go for a long time, because I kept thinking about the other possible route but because I kept thinking about it incorrectly in my mind I thought it wouldn't work either, so I kept coming back to the other "almost works but fall is fatal by 1 pixel" route. Even if it wasn't a fatal fall, the problem is that you would always end up 1 platformer short. So, for a very long time, I kept trying different things between the two routes, and after a time, I finally found one which worked to solve the level. In the end, Icho said that mine is a "slight variation of the intended route but is acceptable for him." He was really relieved that I didn't backroute the level, because it had already gone through so many different versions.

So far, there have only been 4 United levels that have stumped me for more than a week. Everything else about 1.5 - 2 days or less. I think this will very likely change with the Genocide levels. Ultimately, most of the time I'm able to get by the roadblocks if I keep at it long enough, most likely after I take an extended break by getting away from the level for a while or I play other level packs in the meantime. Getting away from a level you're stuck on really helps to clear your mind so that the next time you come back to the level you're looking at it with a fresh start. Interestingly enough, so far all the United levels I encountered that have time limits have all been really hard levels for me. Of course, a lot of the United levels with infinite time have been difficult for me too, but I find it interesting that all the ones with time limits have all been hard for me. Now, in contrast to most people here, I love time limits in this game, especially since I'm a math person and I love numbers. Except for Tension 41, they're all really short levels. It just goes to show you that even with a small time limit, short levels can still be deceivingly tough. In other words, short levels have the tendency to look easy, but in actuality they can be really hard levels. War 36 has been the most difficult timed United level so far for me, although that might change with the Genocide levels, and I'm quite certain there will be some timed levels in the rank. Similarly, long levels tend to look very difficult, and they generally are, but in actuality some long levels are easier than they appear. I guess even intimidation can affect one's ability to solve a long level, but this is just a psychological effect trying to mess with you.

Generally, what I do when solving a level is I place the obvious skills first. Got a wide water gap with a low ceiling that you need to get across? It's obvious that a platformer goes here! Need to go from a low place to a really high place, and the walls have vertical scalable edges? Obviously a climber needs to be used! I'm sure pretty much everyone here does this, so I'm sure I'm not the only one. I find this very helpful, because then it's easier to work with the skills you have left. Then next you try to place the non-obvious skills. Sometimes, there's more than one possible skill choice to use at a particular spot, so this sometimes takes some trial-and-error to determine the correct skill to use. You try one of the skills, and if that leads to an eventual situation where it won't help solve the level, then this generally means the other skill is the correct one to use instead. Not always, though. In the course of using one possible skill for a particular spot, it's possible that other skill placements in other places where there's more than one possibility were placed incorrectly themselves.

In general, I'm just a huge puzzle lover, especially math puzzles. This definitely has also helped with my lemming level solving abilities, as I mentioned before this has kind of ingrained a sort of puzzle mentality in me, where I take everything in life that needs to be figured out as a kind of puzzle to solve.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 05:21:25 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #233 on: July 15, 2020, 07:48:57 AM »
Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5. 5 days of hashing things out and still no solve. Looks like I'm not worthy enough to beat your United pack, Icho. :( Seeing how I'm currently stuck, I'll just send replays now. Here are War 3, 11, 24, 30, 32, and 38 resolved, along with the new replays Genocide 1 through 4. Have I managed to backroute any of the Genocide levels? In this batch, I highly doubt it.

Regarding the resolved levels, unless you say otherwise, these all seem to be intended now, so I'm quite certain these are the final versions of all the War levels and therefore the rank doesn't need anymore fixing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now the new Genocide levels, along with my thoughts on Genocide 5. Out of this batch, both Genocide 3 and 4 were the easiest ones.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It all goes without saying that I still intend to keep going until the very end, as I'm now 66 levels away from the finish. Just that for the time being, Genocide 5 is the new roadblock for me.

Also, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here: Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.

Keep up the great work! ;P
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 08:51:35 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #234 on: July 15, 2020, 12:53:42 PM »
V 11.2 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 4 32 (reduced Lemming count to 30 and save req to 29)
- 5 01 (added a OWW)

Quote
Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.

That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working. ;)  Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! :thumbsup: No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.


War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance:

This is finally intended! :thumbsup:

War 32 - Eternally Revolving:

No, that's still a total backroute, even worse than the other ones. Reducing the lemming count will hopefully put an end to this without giving away much of the actual solution. ;P

War 30 - Journey to the Coast:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.

Quote
However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,
So you made it harder for yourself here. ;)

In general:
I don't plan on doing much about level positioning anymore though. A few ups and downs in the curve are fine with me, even more as it really seems that different people find different levels hard/easy. This was not a big deal for the other 2 persons solving it for example - they had other roadblocks though.

Genocide 1 - QUOLA

Nope that's still quite a backroute. A OWW should stop this.

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins

It's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take. :devil:  Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded. ;) 

Everything else was intended! :thumbsup:


Quote
Also, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here: Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.

All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected! ;)

Prime example: LOTY 2019 resulted on the received information about the Reunion level "The Face of Evil". The style of the solution was very liked and I wanted to recapture the essence of it.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #235 on: July 15, 2020, 11:00:45 PM »
Curses! I was pretty certain that all War levels have now been fixed up. However, good to know that only one remains in the War rank. Also, only 4 Genocide levels solved and I managed to backroute the very first one? Now that's surprising, to me. Go me, I guess lol :D

Quote
Quote
Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.

That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working. ;)  Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! :thumbsup: No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins

It's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take. :devil:  Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded. ;)

Thanks for the encouragement! In that case, yea, I'm just stupid then. I have the personal tendency to doubt myself a lot. Really, the thing that's keeping me going with the pack is just how I'm very close to the end of this huge pack. Certainly all the very tough hurdles I struggled with and eventually succeeded in getting past in the earlier ranks definitely contributed to providing me more encouragement to keep going. At the same time, I was also stuck on War 6 for a few days so I guess it's not too bad that I'm already stuck this early in the Genocide rank. For War 6, that was just me being stupid. This also ties back to what I said about difficulty being subjective. Levels you and others found hard I might had found easy and similarly levels I found hard you and others might had found easy. So, this probably means I'm not alone in thinking I'm stupid for levels in the latter, as there's most likely others in the exact same situation.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.

Quote
However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,
So you made it harder for yourself here. ;)

Aha, another case of me unnecessarily overcomplicating the solution, similar to what I did on War 20 with the whole miner cancelling. In that case, forget what I said about moving the level further down the rank, although I know you already said that even if it did require the obscure trick I used you're not going to move it, as you're ok with fluctuating spikes in difficulty. No pack is perfect in going from easy to difficult all the time. Good point! ;)

Quote
All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected! ;)

Good to know! ;) I kept thinking my written feedback was being ignored. Thanks as usual for the encouragement and support and again I'm glad to hear that I'm being very helpful in helping you improve and eliminate backroutes. ;P 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #236 on: July 16, 2020, 12:16:30 AM »
hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. Also your the only one currently playing the hardest levels. also I collect replays from you too. I keep 2 separate folders of replays. one with others(including some of your non-backrouted war ones as well as other ranks from previous peoples.), and of course icho's p.m.
ones in his separate folder. I like to compare even ones that weren't backrouted but still have tiny differences in replays, I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).
Also as long as the updated versions that Icho does have replays that work from others, then I keep those too. I only remove others replays when he updates the pack and those don't work anymore.

I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:29:56 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #237 on: July 16, 2020, 09:38:27 PM »
hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).

I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.

You are way too kind, eric. Thank you very kindly, sir! Much appreciated. :) Well, thanks to both of you gentlemen's encouragement, I finally solved Genocide 5 last night. Indeed, this whole time I was stuck I was simply a dumb dumb, because

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, onward!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 10:13:50 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #238 on: July 20, 2020, 09:47:47 AM »
More replays inbound! Here are Genocide 5 through 14, as well as War 32 and Genocide 1 resolved. Definitely starting to get really difficult. I would had waited until the halfway point before sending replays, but having finally solved Genocide 14 just now after being stumped on it so badly for a few days, it got me exhausted. Let's see how many of these I managed to backroute. I'm guessing Genocide 7 and even Genocide 14? Nevertheless, I still intend to keep going and finish the pack. 27 main levels left!

Regarding resolved War 32, I think we can now declare all of the War rank finally backroute free! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now for the new replays

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, you mentioned that you changed the mushroom position slightly on War 36. What I want to know is if we're talking about the same one. In my feedback for the level, the one I was referring to is the slanted mushroom pointing down to the left on the slanted slope in the middle. When I load up the level, it all looks the same to me except maybe for one of the mushrooms in the pond in the middle. That's not the one I was referring to in my feedback. So, which one did you change the position of slightly, the slanted one or the one near the water?

Onward and hoping the remaining Genocide levels don't trump me too badly. After the brutal Genocide 14, I'm not too hopeful, but as I said I still intend to go through til the very end. I've made it too far into the pack to possibly stop now.

Once again, thank you for the encouragement to keep going. Good to know I’m being cheered on by some, pack author included, to keep going and finish the pack once and for all! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 10:34:48 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]
« Reply #239 on: July 20, 2020, 11:40:10 AM »
yes kaywhyn, I want you to finish the pack, however long it takes, even if some levels take days or whatever. I'm keeping an eye out for your replays. any that aren't backroutes that he updates for I keep. if the pack gets updated and your replays fail then I remove them. Boy you really are determined to do this. I just wouldnt have the patient to try to solve a level after many days.

But I wish you continued success.