Author Topic: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!  (Read 281 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« on: August 19, 2019, 04:45:23 am »
I've now done most of the work necessary to port Lemmings Redux to new-formats and fix all issues that have been noticed since the last update. However, there are still a couple of backroute fixes to make, and I would like some input from the community on the best way to do these. I've attached new-formats copies of both the levels in question.

(1) Let's go camping. The backroute: second lemming blocks at the edge of the large wall; first lemming builds a > bridge to get back up, then releases the blocker.

It's been suggested that we should move the wall with the trap further away to prevent this, but that would mean enlarging the level, which I'm a bit reluctant to do as Genesis levels have a maximum size of 511. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.

(2) Oh No! Squish. The backroute: dig just before each trap trigger, then bash away the ground under the trigger; the basher is shallow enough to stop automatically.

This one is a big problem, because it's always going to be possible unless we make severe changes to the level. One possibility is to reduce the number of bashers and diggers. We don't know the intended solution and there may not be any specific intended solution, but I've played around and found a solution I'm happy with (as in, it doesn't feel like a backroute) that uses only 3 bashers, 3 diggers (as well as other skills). But reducing the bashers and diggers to 3 each would still allow the above backroute (you could use a miner and builder for the fourth trap).

We could increase the number of traps, but that would look strange. Another possibility is to place steel under the first trap trigger -- but that also doesn't look great, and it's still relatively easy to do a variant of the same solution.

Honestly, because this level is so hard to fix, I am considering removing it. If we do that, there are two levels I'd like to suggest as possibilities to add in its place, but I'm open to other suggestions:

* It's the price you have to pay (Havoc 3). This level got a lot of discussion in the long Redux topic, and we eventually concluded that it was impossible to fix it, but I thought it may be possible to fix once we got Shimmiers (using them purely as skill-cancellers). Well, we have them now. But it would be strange to introduce Shimmiers for a single level in a pack that otherwise sticks to the original skills, so I'm not wild about this idea.

* Where Lemmings Dare (Havoc 17). This level was on the original long list (page 3 of the long topic), but wasn't included in bsmith's first compilation pack, possibly inadvertently. It hadn't appeared on anyone's lists of suggested removals, and Minim was in favour of re-adding it. Honestly, I think this level got overlooked because I (and possibly also bsmith) thought of it as a "hidden traps" level, since I remember not noticing the traps until I ran into them, the first time I played the level. But looking at it again -- once you know what the vine traps looks like, all six traps around the exit are clearly visible. So this level may have been unfairly passed over.

I'll wait a short while to see what people have to say, and if necessary put up a poll, but I would definitely like to have this settled quickly so we can release new-formats Redux within the next week.

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2019, 05:20:33 am »
Some people add one-way arrows to prevent backoutes for levels. for the Let's go camping level, putting right arrows under the starting platform will prevent the release of the blocker, but because I don't know the intended solution, that might make the level impossible, so it is a risk.

I don't know how to fix the squish level though. On my second glance the level does appear to be broken and need replacing.

As for a replacement, I would probably re-add Havoc 17, but change the colour of the exit platform by adding rocky terrain pieces or steel so that we know where the vine traps are.
Musical fact: The 2019 UK number 1 hit "Dance Monkey" has the same chord progression as the DOS version of the "Lemming3" tune.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 07:06:39 am »
The traps will also be more visible thanks to secondary animations.

If the pack otherwise sticks to L1 skills, I'd say don't use the shimmier for a single level.

Re: Let's Go Camping, very few levels are still their original size. You may have a point in the context of the official game conversions, but for Redux, I don't think it's a problem.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 11:41:25 pm »
For "Let's Go Camping", one-way wall works fine and doesn't seem so bad aesthetically, so I'll go with that unless there are any complaints.

So... I could replace "Oh No! Squish" with "Where Lemmings Dare" and new-formats Redux would be ready to release right now. I also know it's urgent to release the pack so it can be included in the NeoLemmix installer. But I also think the community should have more time to give input on such a major change, especially as we had a philosophy all along of deciding on everything by group consensus.

So, what do people (especially namida) think I should do? Release the pack now, hold off for a week or so, or release it with the proviso that it may have to be updated?

* * *

Another issue is whether to add more talismans. "I am A. T." 100% has been proposed, and if "Where Lemmings Dare" makes it in, 100% on that level is a strong possibility too. Against that, there are 32 levels per rank, so I like the idea of sticking with 32 talismans. If we add more, I'd like to go up to 36 rather than the irregular number 34. For an extra bronze talisman, one idea I had is "PoP YoR Top" without bashers or miners (the converse of a talisman that was proposed but rejected, no bombers). At the moment I don't have any strong ideas for the last one, but we could look again at the ones proposed in the large Redux topic.

Or, of course, we could avoid this by sticking with the current talismans. Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

Offline Nessy

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Re: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 12:03:24 am »
I think it should be fine to wait just one more week. I think that one week is not too much or too little and it gives people enough time to give their input.

I am 100% on board with replacing "Oh No! Squish" with "Where Lemmings Dare". I like "Where Lemmings Dare" and I feel like it has a better solution and much, much more aesthetically pleasing than "Oh No! Squish" :8(): The secondary animations can also make the traps near the exit easier to notice.

For the talismans I do like the idea of having the 100% solutions for "I Am A.T.", "Where Lemmings Dare", and the "PoP YoR Top" talisman. I'm not sure what the final talisman can be yet, but I'll definitely get back to you on that :)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux (new-formats): Coming soon!
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 12:07:40 am »
Quote
So... I could replace "Oh No! Squish" with "Where Lemmings Dare" and new-formats Redux would be ready to release right now. I also know it's urgent to release the pack so it can be included in the NeoLemmix installer. But I also think the community should have more time to give input on such a major change, especially as we had a philosophy all along of deciding on everything by group consensus.

It's really not that urgent. It would be nice to have it in there, but I can modify the list of "included" packs at any time - all that's needed is a reliable download link for the pack, and for it to be ZIP'd in the correct way (and there are several options here). Certianly, not having new-formats Redux released will not hold up the ability to release the installer and/or require an installer version update to be made - it's just a change to this text file hosted on neolemmix.com: https://www.neolemmix.com/installer/content.txt

Regarding talismans - firstly, 36 seems just as "rough" as 34 to me. Pretty much, anything that doesn't end in a "5" or "0", or consist of the same digit repeated (eg. 33 or 44 etc), is going to feel like that. I also question if many players would even consciously take note of how many talismans there are. I think the ideal rule here is "unless you have to limit yourself to avoid having too many, just put a talisman wherever it feels right and don't worry about the exact quantity".