jLemmings (disappointing)

[Mindless]

a Lemmings clone written in Java, and I thought Cheapo was ugly =8O
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jlemmings/

[JM]

What is jLemmings about?

[Mindless]

It's a really ugly Lemmings clone... you need the Java Runtime Environment to execute the ".jar" file.

[JM]

It's ugly :x
Then I won't play on it

[Mindless]

Screenshot:

[Shvegait]

You weren't kidding!

[JM]

The terrain on that screenshot looks bad.

[Shvegait]

It's odd how they used a real graphic from Lemmings for the exit (and entrance I guess), but made the lemmings themselves look absolutely horrible. Look at their ugly pumpkin faces! Surely they could make less ugly terrain than that... They couldn't even get the order of the tools right on the toolbar

Ah well, they get an 'F' for Effort

[guest]

Someone mentioned somewhere that they were making a lemmings clone in java...I think it was mindless.

[JM]

Mindless started this thread saying there was a bad lemmings clone. Obviously they have made the lemmings look ugly and everything else I see on the screenshot looks revolting!

[Mindless]

Someone mentioned somewhere that they were making a lemmings clone in java...I think it was mindless.

No, 0xdeadbeef is making a Java Lemmings clone, and (s)he'll be using the original Lemmings graphics, so it won't even come close to being this horrid.

This is in no way mine, and if it was, I would deny it anyway.  O_o

[Jazzem]

The lemmings!!! They're sunburnt all over!

[ccexplore]

It's good to keep in mind that artistic ability and programming ability are two separate things.  Clearly this jLemming project needs some help from people who can draw.  (Yes, I know you're thinking, why not just rip the graphics?  Well for starters, some people might want to respect copyrights, especially for open source projects)

Interestingly, the icons on the skills toolbar are strangely reminicent of the Team17 remake!  I mean, the shovel, the ax, the umbrella......

Maybe those who don't like the Team17 skills toolbar should serious point the Team17 guys to this screenshot, that'll get them to redo their own skills toolbar quick.   (j/k)

[guest]

This is in no way mine

I thought so. Just making sure. It's unbelievably ugly.

[Argai]

a Lemmings clone written in Java, and I thought Cheapo was ugly =8O
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jlemmings/

Cheapo ugly?  ::

[ccexplore]

Well for starters, some people might want to respect copyrights, especially for open source projects)

I take that back, they already ripped the entrance and exit graphics, so I don't think that's their concern.

Maybe they're just too lazy to rip the other graphics?

It's quite possible that this is a still-in-progress project, so they just don't have time to finish all the graphics yet.  Or this could be an abandoned project where they never got to the point of finalizing the graphics.

Sourceforge projects are generally open source, so feel free to contact the programmer(s)/development team to see if they're interested in obtaining rips of the original game graphics.  (Or heck, even just sending them the graphics in default.sty would be an improvement.)  This is also a good way to check whether the project has been abandoned (if no one respond, then obviously it is abandoned).

Aside from the bad graphics though, how's the gameplay?

[chaos_defrost]

Sheesh. The Yoshi's World game's graphics actually look good next to those... I mean, ok, for a game whose physics are (hypothetically) somewhat like Lemmings, at least they could've made the game's appearance not look thrown together at the last second...

[ccexplore]

Sourceforge projects are generally open source

This also means that if you feel like it, you can take the code in their project and use it as the basis for your own, presumably using better graphics.  (0xdeadbeef, take note!)

But do make sure first what the exact licensing terms are.  Just because it's on sourceforge doesn't necessarily mean it's open source, and there are several kinds of open source anyway.  Generally, open source means that you can copy their code, but then you'll need to release your program in the same open-source manner as well.

[ccexplore]

Please make note of this line when you view the project info on Sourceforge:

Development Status: 3 - Alpha

Alpha means it isn't even good enough for Beta yet!  So basically this is still like in the "doodling" stage.

Because Sourceforge is meant for open source development, it is only natural to start release source code as soon as it compiles and does something meaningful.  So just because you can use it right now doesn't mean the author thinks it's good enough for a true release (well, I hope that's the case anyway).  In any case, to take an analogy, it's not like Mindless only release perfect programs when he posts links to his gxplr program and the like.  

[Mindless]

Cheapo ugly?  ::

That Lemming/woman intro screen is not my idea of a good way to make a good first impression.

[ccexplore]

Sheesh. The Yoshi's World game's graphics actually look good next to those...

Yes.  If I recall, didn't you rip a bunch of those graphics from the Mario games themselves?  

It might be hard to believe, but there are some people in the world, me included, who can't even draw to the level of Yoshi's World the game.  (Of course, if I were to make a clone of Lemmings in Java, I would probably take 0xdeadbeef's route and reuse the original graphics instead.)

[guest]

That Lemming/woman intro screen is not my idea of a good way to make a good first impression.

I've heard of that, but what exactly is it?

[ccexplore]

That Lemming/woman intro screen is not my idea of a good way to make a good first impression.

What's your expectation of a "good first impression"?

I didn't think it was bad at all.  It has a nice air of irreverence to it.  At least it isn't a boring intro screen, even if you don't agree with its style.

And it is more animated than the main menu of the original game......even by standards back then, I think the original game's main menu is a bit drab and static.

[Mindless]

Alpha means it isn't even good enough for Beta yet!  So basically this is still like in the "doodling" stage.

Judging from the fact that the last release was on May 1, 2004, I'd guess it's a dead project.  So, in this case, alpha is the "as good as it gets" stage.

In any case, to take an analogy, it's not like Mindless only release perfect programs when he posts links to his gxplr program and the like.  

Yes, yes... my programs do often have major bugs, but I also (try to) fix them in a timely manner.

[ccexplore]

To continue helping others read the webpage, let me point out one line in the project description:

The game is build so that anyone without the need of coding expercience, can create their own maps, or replace the ingame graphics. Check out the beta release under files section!

So maybe that's the point for the graphics to be ugly!  It forces you to come up with something better.  (It would still be nice if the bundled-in graphics are better, but at least you can see that the author is less concerned about that aspect, since he assumes that other people will supply replacement graphics anyway.)

[Mindless]

As for playablity, you could try it out, but it's about as good as the graphics...
- to increase\decrease the release rate you must repeatedly click on the "+"\division(!) buttons
- builders almost seem to build faster than they can normally walk and the steps that they make are 1 px thick, so that in the end, it looks like a line...
- the "Lemmings" slide into the exit

Strangely enough, this game has a Mario style included with it.

[ccexplore]

Sounds like this is something that would be perfect for 0xdeadbeef.  I mean, 0xdeadbeef has been concentrating on the graphics so far, whereas this game presumably has the basic game mechanics in place in sacrifice of decent graphics.  Both planned on writing it in Java.  Put 2 and 2 together and you should get something nice!

I'm going to post a link to this topic on 0xdeadbeef's thread.

[ccexplore]

- builders build faster than they can normally walk and the steps that they make are 1 px thick, so that in the end, it looks like a line...

Aren't the bricks 1 px thick in the original game?  (But I think I know what you mean).

I'd imagine it isn't too hard to adjust the build speed in the code.  Well, this is what you get for an abandoned project.  :-/

- the "Lemmings" slide into the exit

That's a graphics thing not game mechanics.

[Mindless]

That's a graphics thing not game mechanics.

There are other game mechanics problems, for example the max fall height is only ~2x the "jump height" (which is too large itself.)  While this may be more realistic, for a clone that calls itself jLemmings, you'd think that they'd try to make it more like the original.

...and according to the release notes, it's a beta. http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=108287&release_id=235302
(I'm not blaming ccexplore for reading the project summary.)

[ccexplore]

There are other game mechanics problems <snip>

Hmm, maybe that's when the programmer starts giving up and abandon the project.    How disappointing.

[Proxima]

Cheapo ugly?  ::

The graphics in the default styles are pretty ugly, which is why I've bothered to make styles using the originals.

[Mindless]

I'm glad someone agrees with me on that.

Apparently, unless I'm missing something, in order to change the ugly Lemming-like creatures, you'd have to recompile the .jar with the new graphics.

[ccexplore]

The graphics in the default styles are pretty ugly, which is why I've bothered to make styles using the originals.

I thought Cheapo's Blue/Crystal style was decent though, and maybe also the Columns style.  I have to agree I'm not too enthusiastic about its Pink style.

[ccexplore]

I'm glad someone agrees with me on that.

Actually, Ahribar was talking about the graphics in the styles that came with Cheapo, whereas I thoght you were talking about the Cheapo intro screen where you select levels/sets, which you can't even customize.

[Mindless]

I was using the intro screen as an example of what I didn't like.

[ccexplore]

So there isn't anything about any of the Cheapo graphics that you at least tolerate?

[Proxima]

I thought Cheapo's Blue/Crystal style was decent though, and maybe also the Columns style.  I have to agree I'm not too enthusiastic about its Pink style.

I also thought they were OK until it became possible for me to design levels with the original graphics..... though the Columns style is perhaps the least crap. One thing I do like, though, is the exits (except of course the Fire one); in my new styles I've combined the design of the Cheapo exits with the colouring of the originals to get the perfect combination

[ccexplore]

Wow, there's no accounting for taste I guess.

I don't see anything special about the Cheapo exits at all.  Aren't they all the same except for the palette?

At least the original graphics have some variety in their exits (ok, not a lot, but you can identify at least 3 distinct styles:  dirt/pink, column/crystal, and fire).

It's your styles so I guess we can't make you do stuff, but I think it would suck that you would give everyone the opportunity to use all these original graphics but deny them the original exits.  I hope you include both styles of exits in your styles.

[ccexplore]

At least the original graphics have some variety in their exits (ok, not a lot, but you can identify at least 3 distinct styles: &#A0;dirt/pink, column/crystal, and fire).

Oops, my memory was a little rusty.  The pink style is distinct enough shape-wise from the dirt style, it is really another exit style.  So it's actually 4 and not 3.

[ccexplore]

Wow, my memory is really rusty then.  Seems like Cheapo's exits aren't just the same exit in different color schemes after all.  X_X

Anyway, I sort of see a little bit of where you come from with Cheapo's exits.  It seems that the stairway part of the exit is more prominent and has more clarity in the Cheapo graphics then the DOS ones.  But somehow the Cheapo ones seem to look more pixelated to my eyes for some reason.

[0xdeadbeef]

Since my humble efforts to recreate Lemmings in Java were referenced here, I thought I should maybe comment on this.

I wouldn't bash the jLemmings team at all. Agreed, they're missing a nice look at the moment. This doesn't mean however, it won't evolve into a great remake. Well, probably it won't, but that can't be decided yet

About copyright issues: I'm not even sure if I can ever release my remake into public since I'm a little afraid of legal actions by the copyright owners. BTW: Who holds the copyright for lemmings at the moment? Sony?
Surely, before releasing it, I will try to contact the copyright holder. Then again, I have little to no hope, that I will get any reply at all.  So I can understand that the jLemmings team doesn't use the original gfx.

Apart from that I surely won't take anything and I don't need anything from jLemmings. It's true that my approach looks a bit like beeing the opposite of jLemmings'. Then again you should be aware, that up to now I did a lot of things that weren't really fun like ripping gfx, converting all the levels to a text file format, creating infrastructure, collision masks and definition files. I didn't do it this way because I'm afraid of the "real" coding, but because I'm looking forward to make the lemmings walk so much and I fear that if I did this first, I wouldn't have the strength to continue with the not so interesting stuff.

Also, if I look at the screenshot posted, it looks like the jLemmings guys don't intend to recreate the original levels. Probably the levels are all just one image instead of being constructed of tiles. And drawing the levels/animated objects etc. was a major piece of work (for me at least).
As far as my planning goes, the whole lemmings state machine should be much less code and effort. Well, not considering the tweaking to make it "feel" like lemming of course.

And just to tease you, here's another screenshot from my project. You might note that I just integrated the cursor...
http://home.arcor.de/0xdeadbeef/rocky.png

[ccexplore]

Oh, so these were the high-resolution Win95 graphics then.

Damn they really do look nice. B) Ahribar, does your "original graphics" look more like the Win95 one or the DOS one?

[0xdeadbeef]

[EDIT]
Oops, this wasn't a question to me at all. Err, then take it as additional information
[/EDIT]

I'm going for a 640x400 resolution (the windowed mode may be a little more widescreen as on the screenshots, which are 800x400), so I use the Win95 "big" graphics. I guess the "small" graphics set should be pretty much the same as in the Amiga/DOS versions.
Then again, the "big" gfx set of the Win95 version is only partly a hires recreation. Most things are just scaled to the double size making them look quite ugly (especially the outer border).
For some of these tiles, I did some pixel painting to make them look nicer, but as there are so many "ugly" tiles, I gave up quite early. Maybe later on, if the programming is (ever) done, I will come back to this issue.


[EDIT2]
Ok, I just downloaded and tried jLemmings. Forget what I said about you can't tell the quality by the gfx since it doesn't matter anyway: the gameplay is FAR from being acceptable:

No real diggin/bashing (doesn't remove bricks), no object animation (water, traps, exit decoration), not even the cursor changes when it's above a lemming. Bashing most of the times doesn't work, the whole climbing/bashing/building etc. is not nearly working like it should.

The levels are not just bitmaps as I first suspected: also objects can be placed, but this is much simpler than in the original game (no paint modes like "draw on visible", "don't overdraw", also no flipping or removal). There seem to be no traps or "no brick" objects apart from entry/exit btw. So I it won't be even possible to recreate a simple standard Lemmigs level near 100% with this even if the (non animated part of the) level was provided as one large bitmap.

Also, if this in the alpha version and was compiled in May 2004, the chancesare quite low, that there'll be a beta soon.

And about copyright: I don't think that they would care, since there's a lot copyrighted material in the JAR file: they have the original WAVs (from the Win95 version?), ripped Mario-Gfx and also some Disney characters in an "about" screen.

[Proxima]

Wow, I didn't realise this would generate so much controversy

I've uploaded the exits I used for the five Lemmings 1 styles so you can have a look: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/exits.gif

If you really don't like them..... I guess I could make a poll and ask other people whether they prefer the originals.

[Proxima]

Oh, so these were the high-resolution Win95 graphics then.

Damn they really do look nice. B) Ahribar, does your "original graphics" look more like the Win95 one or the DOS one?

Um....... I haven't seen either so I can't tell you Here's a screenshot of a whole level in one of my styles, if it will help you compare: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Teaser.gif

I can put more screenshots up if you like, just tell me what you want!

[JM]

That's an amazing screenshot Ahribar. The level design is also amazing.

[Mindless]

Wow, I didn't realise this would generate so much controversy

Neither did I.  :-/

I've uploaded the exits I used for the five Lemmings 1 styles so you can have a look: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/exits.gif

If you really don't like them..... I guess I could make a poll and ask other people whether they prefer the originals.

I'd rather you used the originals...

[geoo]

 Well, for the exits, I don't like the ones for the Classic/Colums and the Crystal style. I really prefer the original for those.

I general, I hope the music gets ready as soon as possible since I want to use your styles; the only changed style of Cheapo that wasn't that bad was the Fire style (except the objects, which were really bad). The Classic/Colums style in cheapo have a totally different feeling, for the Crystal one I dislike the missing contrast, and the pink is really bad.
(I don't really care about the dirt one since I also don't like the original too much, but the cheapo one causes also a different feeling).

That's my opinion.
(About jLemmings I think I don't need to say anything.)

(Note: this should be right topic now )

[JM]

I dont really like the hell graphics as much but I love the pink set and the crystal set.

[ccexplore]

Um....... I haven't seen either so I can't tell you Here's a screenshot of a whole level in one of my styles, if it will help you compare

You've seen the windows hi-res one if you look at the 3 screenshots 0xdeadbeef has posted.  The DOS one is basically like the one you see on "The Lemmings Solutions".

The difference can be very noticeable, take a look at 0xdeadbeef's screenshot again:

http://home.arcor.de/0xdeadbeef/rocky.png

I don't know, my first impression was "wow" as you've read.  Maybe that's just me, but if you too, try to include them (all 8 sets!) in your styles!  0xdeadbeef should already have all the graphics so it's a simple matter of asking.

[ccexplore]

Actually, forget it.  They look nice precisely because they were displayed in high resolution.  Cheapo doesn't support that it would seem, so there would be no way for you to use those graphics.  Shame.

[Proxima]

Well, for the exits, I don't like the ones for the Classic/Colums and the Crystal style. I really prefer the original for those.

OK, I'll put both in; but I'm still going to use my ones on my levels

I general, I hope the music gets ready as soon as possible since I want to use your styles

I'll send you ccexplore's e-mail address then, so you can help to nag him! God knows I've made little enough progress on my own........

[Proxima]

That's an amazing screenshot Ahribar. The level design is also amazing.

Thank you!

[ccexplore]

Here's a screenshot of a whole level in one of my styles, if it will help you compare: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Teaser.gif

I was distracted, but now that I took a closer look...hey, the Twenty-Second Teaser!

Wow, what a difference you've made to the level's appearance.  Of course, now sour-mouthed Shvegait is going to whine about having huge swaths of the level area unused in the solution <ccexplore shoves Shvegait into a cannon and blasts him off this planet  >.

But seriously, it is very impressive looking.  The only bit I'm less sure about are those overhead pipeworks, they seem a little excessive (too many).  But other than that everything else looks fabulous.  B)

[Proxima]

Thank you!

And yes, that was the joke..... since that, out of all my levels, uses by far the least space, I thought I'd put it into a *huge* level. However, to appease Shvegait a little, I've also made a prequel, "Goblin City", that uses quite a bit more of the terrain. (I didn't plan it that way; I just realised after I'd created the layout that it allowed the possibility.)

[Proxima]

OK, I'll put both in; but I'm still going to use my ones on my levels

Done.

[Shvegait]

I guess I better watch what I say (or how I say it). The first thing I said on the subject was that Hubbart's levels were *extra* cool for using interesting terrain as part of the actual levels (as in, where the Lemmings actually walk). The other thing I said was that it's odd to say that a "good" feature (in a review) of a level would be using only a small part of the terrain. Any comments about terrain use in "The Selhajek Arbenition." are restricted to that level, because, well, you know. I shouldn't have to through that again.

I very much like extra scenery for effect!

But if for some reason I'm in a grumpy mood and decide I don't, and I feel like playing the level, well, I have an old version of "Twenty Second Teaser" that doesn't have the extra scenery (Btw, the scenery is quite interesting on that level. I would have never thought of making a tree in the pink set!)

[Timballisto]

What the?...Why do they all have mustaches?  They look horrible.  So wait, someone is making a java lemmings right now, I know that much, but, is that someone else's creation or no?

[JM]

I hate the moustaches. The lemmings look pathetic with moustaches and the graphics (according to the screenshots) are horrible. What the?? This JLemmings game is horrible I'm not touching it.

[0xdeadbeef]

What the?...Why do they all have mustaches?  They look horrible.  So wait, someone is making a java lemmings right now, I know that much, but, is that someone else's creation or no?

It is.
And if I'll ever finish and don't get sued by Sony or whatever, the Lemmings will look like this:


And levels will look like this:
http://home.arcor.de/0xdeadbeef/escher.png

[guest]

Wow that looks nice! The colored minimap is good but why is it so stretched?

[0xdeadbeef]

As discussed in the other thread, this is not a final layout, just something to play around with for the moment. The final mini-map will look different and will have another ratio. It will however be vertically stretched as all mini-maps in the original versions.

[JM]

The screenshots good