Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration  (Read 12027 times)

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Offline Akseli

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2017, 05:32:02 pm »
I might as well join the party here and state that you've Nessy joined just this forum two months ago and no one would've guessed that only by looking at your incredibly professional feeling levels. :thumbsup: The whole pack felt astonishingly backroute-free already in its initial release, there were literally no level that felt broken or trivial. What's even funnier is that this kind of pack pops out of nowhere (at least I didn't know it was upcoming...) and surprises the entire community, all I can ponder now is that were these really the first levels you've ever designed and didn't you even have anyone to test them in advance?

If Icho said that it took 3 hours to play this pack, I used maybe 4 hours to get through all of the 33 levels. Even though it felt a bit easy compared to levels around it, I must to admit that "The Abandoned Sanctuary" is probably my favourite level of the bunch as well, it was highly pleasant to play it. Great use of namida's Metal [EDIT: Machine, Metal is a different one :P] tileset, also! For real, there's definitely some challenge for players at all skill levels, I'd say Irritation goes already beyond Mayhem, and isn't quite like late Tricky, as the elders humbly say in the introduction. :)

Thank you, Nessy, for this rewarding Lemmings experience.

My solutions are attached.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 09:20:20 pm by Akseli »

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2017, 05:52:44 pm »
Thank you Akseli! I'll take a look at your solutions after looking at möbius's streams. :thumbsup:

The whole pack felt astonishingly backroute-free already in its initial release, there were literally no level that felt broken or trivial.

There are a lot of backroutes. A lot of them no big deal but a lot of them that are. Of course, this is to be excepted and I don't think anyone releases a pack backroute-free the first time, even if its there 5th or 10th pack ever!

What's even funnier is that this kind of pack pops out of nowhere (at least I didn't know it was upcoming...) and surprises the entire community, all I can ponder now is that were these really the first levels you've ever designed and didn't you even have anyone to test them in advance?

Nobody believes me when I say this is my first pack. I PROMISE everybody that it is. However, as for the levels a lot of them are not the first ones I created. I have a lot in my recycle bin folder that are either bad or just not creative enough. I did try to play a lot of packs while making levels in order to see what was truly possible with a game like lemmings that I would never have figured out on my own just by playing the official games, so that's why I thank the community here. These past months have been crazy for me for personal reasons, but even on really busy days I would still manage some time in creating levels even if it was setting up a terrain but not having a solution yet.

Even though it felt a bit easy compared to levels around it, I must to admit that "The Abandoned Sanctuary" is probably my favourite level of the bunch as well, it was highly pleasant to play it.

This level is a perfect example of what I was talking about. This level started off with a trivial solution, but I liked it and I just kept on figuring out a better solution to it until finally arriving at the one you see today. It didn't happen overnight.

Great use of namida's Metal tileset, also! For real, there's definitely some challenge for players at all skill levels, I'd say Irritation goes already beyond Mayhem, and isn't quite like late Tricky, as the elders humbly say in the introduction. :)

I think I'm one of the only ones that likes the Machine tileset. I like the idea of almost everything being metal because it can lead to the solution seen in Migraine 3.

As for the elders, they grew up in another era where late Tricky was considered to be the hardest thing for young and inexperienced lemmings, but as the land became harsher the challenges soon grew. ;)

But yes the difficulty curve needs some work, but my primary concern was making sure the backroutes are fixed.

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2017, 09:15:41 pm »
Final möbius stream comments. To be honest I actually wasn't excepting this pack to be so difficulty. I guess I don't know my own strength yet. :lem-shocked:


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I forgot to mention something to Akseli in my reply to his post. I did do a lot of research around the forums to find out what people like and don't like. It helped me to avoid a lot of the pitfalls that beginners fall into sometimes when they start off, such as putting in a time limit on levels that don't really don't need them.

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 08:57:13 pm »
Version 2 is now available!

- 7 new levels have been added, bringing the pack to 40 levels (10 in each rank).
- Custom music.
- Backroute fixes.

I'm very happy with this pack and I'm very happy that everyone enjoyed it so much. I'm going to let it rest now regardless of what happens, with the only change being to update the pack to the new formats when the time comes.

In other news I have decided to publish something else I have been working on the side just for fun in the In Development topic. I wasn't going to publish it initially, but I was encouraged to go for it. It's coming soon...

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 09:56:21 pm »
Here are my Irritation Replays, sorry to get these to you so late! I'm quite sure I backrouted a few at least mildly. Here are my comments.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My levelpack: SubLems
For NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

Upcoming levelpack: ArtLems
Development Topic: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3166.0

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 10:34:08 pm »
Thank you Colorful Arty! I'm glad you enjoyed my levels.


I still have a lot to learn about making levels. The most obvious is making a better difficulty curve. It seems that my levels hit Mayhem in the second rank and it stays there. I also tend to think that a level is going to be a hard one, but it turns out that it's easy and vice versa. I guess you can only do so much, and just being honest about it and getting feedback like this is the only way to help with that. Another thing is play testing. I did play test my levels multiple times on multiple days for backroutes, but I need to start doing it a little bit more vigorous as some backroutes I would never have found while others were so obvious and silly that I should have caught them. Well, it's the only way to grow as a level maker :). Hopefully, these are things I can work on in future packs.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 11:07:02 pm »
So I've played this as far as I could, thought I may as well add my replays to the collection :P even though you're getting a lot of replays for the first rank and not many for the rest. Irritation 2 has me completely stuck; I'd like to come back to it at some point, but I really don't have much time to play packs these days.

Anyhow, comments on the first rank...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 11:14:04 pm »
Started playing this now. I've finished the first rank (they're getting hard already) and am working on the second rank (two down so far). A few things I've noticed...
Levels look very good and have clever solutions. Well done there. I've gotten stuck on a few, but nothing for too long yet, which is good. It would be really discouraging to get locked up on the first rank... I speak from experience on this one. :-[

The custom toolbar looks pretty good. I can tell what skills are what at a glance, with one glaring issue... The number '5' and the number '6' look exactly the same; they both look like fives. That's a big problem. :lem-shocked: I didn't actually notice until Irritation 3, where I thought I had 5 builders only to discover that I actually have 6.

Great music choices! I'm hearing some Skyward Sword, some Oracle of Ages, some remixes of standard Lemmings themes, some Partners in Time, some Bowser's Inside Story... :thumbsup: The songs don't loop very well, though... I like to use .ogg files and manually set up the loop with Audacity. Making it loop properly really does make it sound and feel nicer, especially when you're stuck on a tough level. Should you like, I'd be willing to teach you how. :)

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 11:19:17 pm »
I was referring to Ancient Temple of the Lemming actually.

Also, I am definitely getting the updated .nxp with the music!
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My levelpack: SubLems
For NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

Upcoming levelpack: ArtLems
Development Topic: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3166.0

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2017, 12:33:32 am »
Glad to hear everybody's feedback!

Irritation 2 has me completely stuck; I'd like to come back to it at some point, but I really don't have much time to play packs these days.

That level, In Your Wildest Dreams!, is actually a lot easier than the level that used to be Irritation 2: Never Getting Back Together, which is the most popular level so far. It was hard to place it because some people found it very easy and some very hard. It's now Irritation 4 and that's all I want to say so I don't give away spoilers.

Started playing this now. I've finished the first rank (they're getting hard already) and am working on the second rank (two down so far). A few things I've noticed...
Levels look very good and have clever solutions. Well done there. I've gotten stuck on a few, but nothing for too long yet, which is good. It would be really discouraging to get locked up on the first rank... I speak from experience on this one. :-[

I got stuck on a first rank level in Lemmings Plus Omega II. They told me it was hard and I tried it to see if it really was. Very good pack, but not for the weak. I'm still in rank 3 so I guess I'm doing good so far...

I know you don't like very hard levels so I'm just going to warn you that this pack gets very hard towards the end, but I know you can do it! :thumbsup:

The custom toolbar looks pretty good. I can tell what skills are what at a glance, with one glaring issue... The number '5' and the number '6' look exactly the same; they both look like fives. That's a big problem. :lem-shocked: I didn't actually notice until Irritation 3, where I thought I had 5 builders only to discover that I actually have 6.

That actually isn't my toolbar. I got it from a forum member named altiereslima. I gave them credit in my first post and in the actual pack. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I tweaked the numbers so they aren't confusing.

Great music choices! I'm hearing some Skyward Sword, some Oracle of Ages, some remixes of standard Lemmings themes, some Partners in Time, some Bowser's Inside Story... :thumbsup: The songs don't loop very well, though... I like to use .ogg files and manually set up the loop with Audacity. Making it loop properly really does make it sound and feel nicer, especially when you're stuck on a tough level. Should you like, I'd be willing to teach you how. :)

The looping does suck... that's why I was hesitate the first time around to add custom music. Even now it still needs a lot of work. I'll go ahead and play around with Audacity, and if I need help I'm glad you offered to help. Thanks :).

I was referring to Ancient Temple of the Lemming actually.

Also, I am definitely getting the updated .nxp with the music!

Oh okay, and you should definitely try the updated .nxp, there are 7 new levels that I added to bring the pack up to 40 levels instead of the awkward 33 ;P.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2017, 12:36:45 am »
Next three levels solved... and stuck again on "An Incident in the Mine". I have a solution that saves 24, but I can't see how to convert that into a win. Incidentally, you need to check the post-level texts for this pack; I shouldn't be seeing "Right on! You can't get any closer than that" after a fail.

Comments on levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 01:04:31 am »
Incidentally, you need to check the post-level texts for this pack; I shouldn't be seeing "Right on! You can't get any closer than that" after a fail.

Wow, that's embarrassing. I'll fix that and republish it in my first post as V2.1

Offline Nepster

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2017, 06:01:48 pm »
Attached new replays for the level, where the update broke the old one. A lot of the solutions that previously looked very backroutish now have a good chance to be (close) to intended. Still I have a few special comments:
Never getting back together: I still consider this harder than most of Headache.
The Abandoned Sanctuary: I liked the old version better. Basically the same solution still works, but getting the two climbers where they have to be now takes a rather hackish trick.
We're coming home: This now feels a lot more like a standard solution, than the one I found in the first version.
Firework Chamber: The beginning is pretty precise on timing the lemmings from the left-most three hatches. Getting this right required a lot of fiddling around. The first version was better in that regard.

PS: At first I read "Pointless" instead of "Painless" for the rank name ;P

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2017, 11:08:29 pm »
Thank you for the replies Nepster. I'm going to look at them tomorrow or the next day.

A quick comment I can tell you right now is that if the trick in The Abandoned Sanctuary for the two climbers to stay at the top of the ledge feels hackish I can always tweak the terrain to fix it so it feels more natural. That's no problem at all. That was the original solution I had for that level, but I changed it in version 1 and then changed it back in version 2.

In Firework Chamber the timing for the left hatches was supposed to be precise but not that precise, but I guess it's worst than I thought. I'll see what I can do about that.

Offline Nessy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Migration
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2017, 12:43:05 am »

Proxima, I'll check your replies next :).