Author Topic: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x  (Read 2192 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« on: June 21, 2017, 02:47:38 pm »
I updated three levels from the lemforum pack.

Every Lix: oriental fixes.
Let's Block and Blow: remake in lab tile set.
Low Profile: Adapted to new tumbler/floater physics.

I made a pull request for these, also see attached for reference.

I recorded a few replays and made a pull request.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:05:13 pm by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 03:07:28 pm »
Most of those are my levels, so I should be able to do them. I'm just having so much fun playing namida's RPG that it's hard to find time right now :)

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 05:02:40 am »
I merged geoo's replays and 3 updated levels. Thanks for covering more than half of the task! 17 lemforum levels remain to be proven, along with 29 Rubix levels.

geoo remade Let's Block And Blow in Raymanni's lab tileset, see attached screenshot. (Bug in the image exporter: Levels smaller than 640x400 don't print stats, only a few dots in bottom-right corner.)

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 10:36:36 pm »
To Destroy is to Construct: Terrain modification to fix backroute. Level and replay attached. Replay recorded in 0.7.7 but is independent of walker behaviour (walker is assigned to a walker).

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 11:08:40 pm »
Replays for remaining Daunting levels, except "I'm Gonna Make You Mine", which should be replaced as it doesn't work with new builder physics.

<Proxima> Forgot to mention in my post, I've changed The Crimson Room to have only 12 lix.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:55:43 pm by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 12:07:48 am »
One-Lix Showdown by namida. This is a difficult level, and I suggest using it to replace Lixes in Arms (Vicious) at the same position.

I'm going to keep looking through the spare levels I have, to decide on a candidate for replacing I'm Gonna Make You Mine.

Replay also attached.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 12:54:06 am »
Theresa falls up the stairs by mobius. This is a potential candidate for replacing I'm Gonna Make You Mine, but needs confirmation from mobius as to whether my solution (replay attached) is a backroute or acceptable. I remember this level being a source of backroute frustration when first posted, but maybe some of these were fixed? At any rate, in the current version it took me a while to solve, and I'm happy enough with the solution to consider it a candidate.

Replay recorded in 0.7.7. Should work in 0.7.8, but the last three skill assignments become unnecessary.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 04:44:32 pm »
Replays: Dividing Three By Two, Changing of the Guards, Buridan's Lix (both solutions)

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 04:55:09 pm »
I'm Gonna Make You Mine: proposed change (builders -> 20, platformers -> 5) with replay.

Edit Simon: Lix 0.7.10 has everything above and including this post.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 08:53:29 am by Simon »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 09:09:12 pm »
I've updated Lixes in Motion to use the (Raymanni's new) toy set. I may make more embellishments to other levels of mine. May have more plans too, if there's time. [rubs hands together with evil grin].

note: I tested; level works as intended though an old replay might fail because the entrances have moved slightly.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 09:29:13 pm »
Solutions for the new/updated levels.

One Lix Showdown: Really nice level.
Make you Mine: A bit technical for my taste, still.
Theresa: I found what looks like a backroute, and a solution that's a bit precise, but in spirit quite interesting.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 10:13:53 pm »
Simon proposed the following change to Bulldozer (second attachment). I think it makes the level a bit nicer.

Alternatively, I came up with a new level which is similar in spirit to Bulldozer. Maybe if people agree that it's better (and if it's free of backroutes), I can decorate it a bit and it could go instead of Bulldozer.
EDIT: Added a decorated version.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:48:42 pm by geoo »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 10:53:23 pm »
Solution to the 20-builder 5-platformer Make You Mine. Agree that it is still technical. Can swap it out if wanted, can keep it.

Sinking Ship looks good, haven't solved it yet, despite having solved Bulldozer. I'm good with the Bulldozer replacement or Sinking Ship.

I propose to ditch Digging the Air from Cunning and insert Theresa into Daunting. To keep ranks at 40 levels each, Proxima suggests to move Now This Is Fun from Daunting to Cunning. Okay with me, should be late Cunning.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 11:00:02 pm by Simon »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 09:35:22 pm »
I've updated the 'Theresa level' (changed title, old title is up for anyone else to take if you'd like) and altered the level. But this level has been severely backrouted by many, particularly Nepster and namida found solutions which make it very difficult to fix. I'm not certain this level is still salvageable. This version obviously has some major differences.

Next is; Duality. An old level by Yawg rated pretty highly by a lot of people. I neglected making this since forever simply because of lack of arrow walls, but it may not be a problem. Still should be tested for simple backroutes. This level has many solutions but all should be very difficult or at the least require some out of the box thinking.

I will look through the pack for other levels of mine I'd like to fix or replace. If I only replace one level; use Duality.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2017, 12:22:54 am »
an update: [EDITED]

levels of mine I'd be okay with removing;*

climb to freedom!
6 gaps, 5 builders
Path to Mahiman?  -- a lot of people said this level was tedious
Exit, Stage Right -- (I may improve this one)
Tower of Babel (I may improve this one)
Babylon Fading
When the Levee Breaks
A Soulful Bounding Leap



I've made another newer level "Ascension" (from Mobilems 2). This one got favorable reviews in the past.

EDIT:
I've completely redone "Migration". I think it looks nicer with the Gore set, takes up less space and less work (for the player), and renamed it. This level has many solutions. It should go some where near the beginning I guess.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 12:17:07 am by möbius »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2017, 12:22:04 am »
levels of mine to fix/remove:

climb to freedom!  [decent level but not amazing. I might try to replace it]
6 gaps, 5 builders [pretty boring imo]
Path to Mahiman?  -- a lot of people said this level was tedious
Exit, Stage Right -- (I may improve this one)
Tower of Babel (I may improve this one)
Babylon Fading -- [I think I'd like to change/replace this one]
When the Levee Breaks [pretty boring imo]
A Soulful Bounding Leap [need to look into this one, I forget most of it]

Erbalunga by Pieuw. When I was making levels by Pieuw for this, it seems I picked the worst possible levels from him at the time, instead of the best. :XD: Not that this level is bad, but he has quite a few far better than those like this and Diggin' the air...

another funeral -- rename?

Passing engagement -- rename?

Conundrum -- I may rename this and add decoration

The Last Laugh ???????? [can't remember this one well and I may change or replace it.

Lixes in Arms should have 1 imploder. [the intended solution though not required is to trap them in a builder bridge on the left so they're clumped together]


Stuff in the way by tseug -- this level does not work at all without a time limit! In any case if it's kept in this pack it's far easier (in current state) then Hopeless.

Tinker Tailor, eye of needle, I should test these levels, haven't played them in a long time.



I've uploaded "As Good As Dead" another new remake from a Mobilems level that got good reviews. If you'd like to me group my own levels and replacements together let me know. I've figured you(s) wanted to take care of that.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2017, 12:02:33 pm »
I'm going away for a few days, but when I get back I'll have a look at all the latest posted levels and decide what to do with them.

I feel I should clarify the situation. We have made a couple of replacements recently to keep the pack in line with new versions of Lix, but in general, we've already gone through a long selection and ordering process, so I don't think we should make more replacements than necessary now. I will at least look at any levels posted here, but I will lean towards keeping the line-up as it is unless one of the new levels is clearly a lot better than one of the old ones.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 05:47:25 pm »
Replay for "As Good As Dead". Saves 19 with a spare floater.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2017, 01:30:45 am »
In that case, I will do my best to make sure any replacements I suggest can match their old level's difficulty. Because some of these by me, I very strongly dislike [at least compared to recent levels I've made]. But I understand how tedious ordering the levels is so I don't want anyone to have to deal with that.

thanks for testing. That solution is a backroute but easily fixed. Wait, there shouldn't be a tree :XD: :D [moved the tree over so can't be reached with 1 builder. I'd like to keep the tree; I think it's nice decoration]
I removed it because I might make more changes to it.

I'll post again with a more detailed post and explinations. I'll try to keep this as organized as possible. My biggest problem I had with making Revenge of the Lemmings was keeping it organized. That was a dismal failure. :XD: [organizing it, that is, not the pack itself].

My replacement for Migration should be able to stay in the same place. But I will re upload everything later as well.

Solution to the 20-builder 5-platformer Make You Mine. Agree that it is still technical. Can swap it out if wanted, can keep it.

Sinking Ship looks good, haven't solved it yet, despite having solved Bulldozer. I'm good with the Bulldozer replacement or Sinking Ship.

I propose to ditch Digging the Air from Cunning and insert Theresa into Daunting. To keep ranks at 40 levels each, Proxima suggests to move Now This Is Fun from Daunting to Cunning. Okay with me, should be late Cunning.

-- Simon

I have a handful of levels of varying difficulty for possible entry. I can pick one that's equal difficult of Digging the Air's position to replace it OR one for Daunting if need be.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 01:06:46 am »
You may ignore my earlier posts and uploads.

EDIT: I forgot to add a new graphic I added to the game! [I will add this to the other topic as well]
place this in geoo/construction. It is required for Sauce for the Goose and Mass Lixicide.
I will make a formal post for this graphic once I improve upon it. [will try to do so as soon as I can]


These are levels of my own which I've embellished:
(these levels shouldn't need to change in rank (because of my alterations that is)

migration   >   solution improved (easier to execute? And less time-consuming) and decoration improved (changed graphic set (to gore) and title)
Five for Fighting   >   added a little decoration
Lixes in Motion   >   changed graphic set (to Toy)
Path to Mahiman?  -- a lot of people said this level was tedious   >   added a couple of walkers and reduced builders. Level should be less tedious now.
Exit, Stage Right -- (I may improve this one)   >   added decoration and altered solution a bit. Should remain about same difficulty. May require backroute testing but I doubt it.
Conundrum/GetBehindSatan   >   added decoration and changed title. Thanks also to those who updated this level to work without variable SI.
it takes time to build…   >   solution improved (easier to execute? And less time-consuming) and decoration improved (changed graphic set (to gore))
cold irons bound   >   changed solution a bit but difficulty should remain similar. I believe geoo proposed this solution a while ago but I rejected it at the time. Since the new SI I like this solution now.
Tower of Babel   >   graphic set changed (toy) and solution changed but overall difficulty I believe stays the same
over my head   >   changed graphic to lab and altered solution very slightly, difficulty should not be changed


These are possible replacements I'm requesting or suggesting. I've tried to match a level to replace in difficult but that proved a little harder than I thought.

The following are the levels I'm totally in favor of removing (some I do not like at all)

digging the air
Babylon Fading
When the Levee Breaks
A Soulful Bounding Leap
Erbalunga


the following levels I do not have anything strongly against but I'd be okay with letting them go:

another funeral (is a bit tedious and my original intended solution to this level never worked anyway, in Lix nor in NL).
The Last Laugh
Lixes in Arms
Stuff in the Way -- this level does not work at all without a time limit. In any case if it's kept it's far easier (without time limit) then Hopeless. -Perhaps this matter has already been adressed with the saw?

-----

the following are new levels that can be added as replacements: I'm estimating their difficulty which may vary greatly from you guy's opinions.

Ascension; a new level by me (from Mobilems2); was well liked in the past. Daunting difficulty.
As Good as dead; a new level by me (from Mobilems1 that was added later) was some people's favorites from my pack. Daunting difficulty I'm guessing. This is one that I was very surprised people found as difficult as they did.
Sauce for the Goose by t3tesla (original Lemmings in a Situation); Quirky or Cunning Difficulty; maybe Daunting
Babylon Fading; same title but this is a different level ( a remake of on of my Mobilems levels.(uses forest graphic set). Quirky or Cunning Difficulty; maybe Daunting
six ways to success by Martin Z; An interesting level with  many solutions (kind of like Dolly dimple). Quirky or Cunning difficulty.
Fallout by t3tesla (original Suicidal Tendencies); Cunning difficulty, maybe Quirky or Daunting

The Theresa level/Five Easy Steps: this needs testing to be considered.

Duality by Yawg. IMO (and some others) a very, very great level. Very difficult and fun. I highly recommend this first as a candidate to replace any higher tiered level for any reason. It is quite difficult; possibly fitting best in the last rank.
Mass Lixicide possibly daunting or vicious. Another unique and fun level.


--------------
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 01:09:01 am by möbius »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2017, 02:20:24 pm »
Replays for all of moebius's changed and proposed levels. moebius: Please look through for backroutes. Most solutions are good, but some are egregious backroutes.

We didn't solve Path to Mahimah, cut that level entirely. We have so many excellent new levels. Cut Levee, Digging the Air and cut SoulfulLeap to make room.

Replace Babylon Fading with Babylon Fading if you'd like, but please rename Babylon Fading to avoid confusion with the old map. I don't see any connection in the first place between either level and that name.

All of mobius's re-themes are very good, use them all. In particular, replace Time to Build with the Gore set Time To Build. Nice level!

Keep Erbalunga. Especially Icho insists on keeping it, considering Erbalunga above pack average quality.

Maybe cut Oh no not again if Proxima likes a lot of mobius's levels, but the only criterion is ugliness.

Icho suggests reorderings concerning levels he knows from other packs. Will post this list later. That list will be mainly for Proxima.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 02:28:06 pm by Simon »

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 02:52:41 pm »
Some comments, and solutions attached.

Updated levels:

Slaughterhouse: I really like the re-design, but check for backroutes.
Five for Fighting: I think the entire starting platform could be moved a little to the left, so the long builder aligns nicely when you build from the edge of the lower platform.
Lixes in Motion: Really like the re-design, and I think it's a nice level to keep.
Exit, Stage Right: Still not quite sure what's intended here. What I got looks like a backroute.
Conundrum/GetBehindSatan: I like the updated design. I think the old title was fine, but either title works I guess. Is it correct that I have a basher to spare?
cold irons bound: I don't remember which solutions I've found in the past, but the one I got now is nice.
it takes time to build…: Again, really like the redesign visually, but check for backroutes. I resorted to avoiding the climber to save time. Without that, it seems very tough to pull off. It looks like you need one more basher and lose one more lix than allowed. It is possible to do it as save 3 and saving a basher and 2 diggers, but it's very tight. Unless I'm missing something, I feel like it either should be lose 3 or lose 5; lose 4 is strange. Maybe the top gory block could be widened? I found another solution that saves 38 using an extra trick to speed up the building, I wonder how you feel about that one.
over my head: Again, great redesign visually, should take this one. I don't remember the original solution exactly so I can't tell the difference.
Tower of Babel: Definitely nicer than the original. I think it's a decent easy level, I think I remember Proxima didn't like it very much.
Path to Mahiman: I don't mind this level too much, it's a bit of variation from the levels around it. But it'd be better if you could change it so that you don't need builders at all, and cut the builders entirely. That'd also go much better with the labyrinth theme, if you cannot actually pass through walls.

New levels

Ascension: I really like the idea of this one. I'm wondering what's intended for the last bit, right now your solution allows for some very precise digger placement to get everyone home. I hope that's not intended, if it is, then you could adapt a variation.
As Good as dead: What I got looks like a backroute.
Sauce for the Goose: I think it's quite tricky, I used a few hacks to solve it.
Babylon Fading: I like the new level, and it's of moderate difficulty. I agree though it's a bit strange to keep the old title. Either way, I think it's a better level than the old one, but a bit easier.
six ways to success: My solution saves a lot of skills, but I can't see anything else offhand.
Fallout: Looks very interesting and had me stumped for a while, but my solution looks like a backroute in the end, I think the bomber placement is a bit precise.
The Theresa level/Five Easy Steps: Still not sure what the intended solution is, but I like the level either way.
Duality: I somehow remember this being harder. My solution feels a bit unsatisfying because of the hackjob I do at the top left. I don't like this zig-zaggy bit there, it's not quite clear what you can and can't do there.
Mass Lixicide: Really love this one. Maybe you could place the chains in such a way that the thin part is right above the platform, to make the blocker placement easier? I also suppose the extra builder is to get above the top-most blocker?

So from the new levels, in their current state my favourites are Mass Lixicide, Ascension, Babylon Fading and Theresa.

Levels to cut:

I think Path to Mahiman could add some nice variety if you can make a builderless version. So I don't think it should be cut necessarily.
Erbalunga is a good level, I agree. I think it's worth keeping.
Digging the Air and Levee I think it's fine to replace with something better. Soulful Leap I find to be an interesting level, and quite tricky for its position. A better candidate to cut IMO would be Roundabout, it's just visually not very appealing.
Another Funeral is a level which I quite like actually, I think the only thing is that it could do with some minor tweaks to ease execution (right now it needs timing to not block off any lix with the final builder). Though I wonder what you originally had in mind for it?
The Last Laugh is a pretty cool level in my opinion as well.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 07:53:15 pm »
I haven't looked at the new levels yet, but perhaps we can get the issues with the updated levels sorted out before moving on to those.

My replays are attached. Slaughterhouse, Five for Fighting, Lixes in Motion, Over My Head and Tower of Babel seem to have no issues.

Exit, Stage Right: The extra complications seem to have led to backroutes. I can't say how to fix this without knowing what solution was intended.
Conundrum: The redesign is fine, I prefer the old title.
Cold Irons Bound: geoo's second solution is nice, but if we're going to go with that, we have to remove the basher-on-steel solution somehow.
It Takes Time to Build: This looks backroutable by digging to the steel on the left, but if you do that, you uncover the water object behind the terrain. That should be fixed, I think. Otherwise, the level is probably okay; there are a few different ways to do it now, but it looks a lot better so I'd like to keep the redesign. Possibly remove the extra skills?
Path to Mahiman: This is improved with the reduced skills, so it's more of a puzzle now. Perhaps skills could be reduced further, either so that you have to find geoo's builder trick, or to avoid it somehow. (As I said, not making any decision on whether to cut this level until I've had a chance to have a proper look at the new levels.)

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2017, 11:50:05 am »
Re-rankings from the session with Icho.

From Hopeless:
Recycling Plant: easier by 1 rank
Bipolar Maniac/Top Shelf: easier by 1 rank
Parking Garage: easier by 1 rank
Tinker Tailor: easier by 2-3 ranks
Lix lies on Broadway: easier by 2-3 ranks (Simon: maybe only 1 easier)
Rhapsody in Blue: easier by 1 rank
Oh no not again: easier by 1 rank or cut entirely
Eye of the Needle: easier by 0-1 ranks

From Vicious:
Conundrum: easier by 1 rank
Betcha Can't Save: easier by 1 rank
Bashing and Building: harder by 1 rank
Hellfire: easier by 1 rank

From Daunting:
Dances with Lixes: harder by 1 rank (by Simon. It's harder than Elixir, both are good in Vicious.)
Death or Glory: harder by 1 rank
Lix who Japed: harder by 1 rank
Erbalunga: harder by 1 rank (and keep, don't cut)

We'd still cut Path to Mahiman even in the revised version and instead use one of mobius's new maps.

Rename Told You About Stairs with normal capitalization. All-caps rips apart the overall style of the pack despite possibly fitting the level.

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2017, 03:00:12 pm »
Thanks, the above feedback is helpful even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it :lix-tongue: I certainly agree on "Bashing & Building", which is one of only four Vicious-and-below levels I haven't solved.

I'll have a thorough look through the pack and proposed new levels when I have time, and come to a final decision.

Since some of the "easier" verdicts may be based on backroutes, can I see your replays? Naturally I'm particularly curious about "Rhapsody in Blue".

"Recycling Plant" will probably stay put because it's good to have a relatively easy rank opener, and having a good-looking rank opener is also important.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2017, 05:27:51 pm »
I haven't yet had a look at the new levels, just the updated ones. Here are some comments with me repeating lots of stuff that was already mentioned by others.

Slaughterhouse: I like this remake very much. But I would remove the sawblades, unless they are necessary. They simply don't fit together with the gore style, in my opinion.
Conundrum: While I like the added decoration very much, I prefer the old name.
Cold Irons Bound: I have two solutions, the first one is nice, the second feels like a backroute.
Exit Stage Right: Very likely a backroute, because I can save 19/20.
It takes time to build: Even though the new style is nice, I prefer the original level. There the layout was a lot clearer and it doesn't have the problem that one may separate a lix from the top to help building stuff at the bottom. Moreover all these sawblades look ugly.
Path to Mahiman: Unique idea, but the solution soon feels very repetitive. So I prefer to cull this one (if we have good replacement levels).
Tower of Babel: This has a glaring backroute by going down at the left edge and not doing anything with the bottom lixes. Otherwise I like the changed style.
Five For Fighting, Lixes in Motion and Over my head: Very nice remakes! :thumbsup:

Now for the culling discussion (going through the list möbius proposed initially):
Digging the air: Agree to cull.
Babylon Fading: Agree to cull (the original version).
When the Levee Breaks: Agree to cull.
A Soulful Bounding Leap: This isn't a bad level. So I would only cull this if we need some more space and have a strong replacement.
Erbalunga: It's a nice level and there are other levels like "Breackout" or "Don't look back" that I would rather cull instead of Erbalunga.
Another funeral: I very much like the solution, but especially with the new digger mechanics the solution became a lot trickier to execute. So instead of removing it, I would prefer to simplify it's execution.
The Last Laugh: Yes, if we have a good replacement for this level among the proposals by möbius, this might be a candidate to replace.
Lixes in Arms: A better level than Last Laugh, in my opinion. Even if we had a very strong contender for its position, the question would be whether to replace this level or another one like "Cuber Replacement".

And finally regarding the reordering discussion:
Parking Garage: It should stay in Hopeless.
Spoiler for Parking Garage (click to show/hide)
Tinker Tailor: It could be moved 1 rank down, but not more. Note that there have been several NL versions, with this being a backroute-fixed version of the harders NL version.
Lix lies on Broadway: For veteran players who know this trick, this is probably easy. But as far as I know this is the first time this trick appears in the lemforum pack. So a place in Hopeless is deserved.
Rhapsody in Blue: Should definitely stay where it is.
Oh no not again: While the solution is pretty easy itself, it is very hidden. So while we might move it 10 levels earlier within the same rank, it should stay in Hopeless (or be cut entirely).
Eye of the Needle: It is still harder than the first 10 levels in Hopeless, so while I am not against moving it to Hopeless 15 or similar, it should remain in Hopeless.
Conundrum: Feels prefectly fine at its current position.
Death or Glory: I don't think this is much harder than the other levels around it.
Erbalunga: I think mid-Cunning is fine for it, as it has a few solutions (one of them even having one basher and one digger spare).
I agree with all other suggestions for moving levels.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2017, 10:10:29 pm »
lol everytime I'm getting ready to post a new person comes with a ton of replays :XD: . It's taking me a little while to look over all the replays so give me a few days to reply. I've fixed several of the levels already.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2017, 01:29:09 pm »
thanks for all the comments.

levels fixed:
Cold Irons Bound
Exit Stage Right
It Takes Time To Build
Five for Fighting (geoo's suggestion)
Babylon fading (fixed and changed title)
Six Ways to Success, changed decoration a little bit as well
tower of babel
As Good as Dead

@Simon:
You didn't solve "Path to Mahimah" why exactly? Was it too tedious/not fun or difficult? I don't think anyone found the level very difficult at all. I think the changes eliminated any tedium that were had with building (which it used to have).

new levels scrapped: Five Easy Pieces
There are some obvious backroutes with the new skills. I really don't feel like bothering with this level at all; as I've said it's already been pleagued in the past. If youre curious;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Other solutions were new but acceptable. Six Ways to success and t3tesla's levels have several interesting solutions. I might alter them but I'll think about it more. I have also not looked at Duality and Mass Lixicide yet. The extra builder there is to get over the blocker as geoo said.

Duality: that pointed area left of the upper hatch must be this way; it forces you to use at least two skills there (digger and miner) to hold back the crowd.


Cold Irons Bound: fixed basher backroute and geoo's alternate solution. Note that there may be secondary solution to this level which relies on super extreme precision (may not be possible) This is not the intended solution. There's no way to remove this if it works that I know of.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I hate to do this but I have one more new level to add!
It's the Whispering Wind, another from Mobilems, you'll notice it's a repeat of Five for Fighting.

at least one person really liked this level:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylzQwaNRkgk&t=808s

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2017, 02:49:55 pm »
Edited "Forest of Fears" to get the one-way device working without having to use those thin platforms. This is a nice Quirky level, and I think we could use it to replace Path of Mahiman.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2017, 03:49:55 pm »
Forest of Fears looks backroute-fixed in Proxima's version, well done. I've tried to make the one-way gadget even clearer:

-- Simon

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2017, 04:03:00 pm »
Forest of Fears reverted to Proxima's one-way gadget, trying to prevent Nepster's backroute (swap bomber with one of the bashers) with wider leftmost water pit.

re Path to Mahimah: I've played the new version halfway. It seemed obvious enough how to proceed and I was too lazy to finish it. It's indeed faster and better than before, but still fiddly. The alternative levels are very strong in comparison.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 04:17:58 pm by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2017, 05:53:04 pm »
mobius: Please provide your replays for the most recent versions of Exit Stage Right, Cold Irons Bound, It Takes Time to Build.

I have attached my replays for Ascension and As Good as Dead. Check whether these are intended / acceptable; if not then provide replays of intended solutions.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2017, 06:12:21 pm »
Quote
new levels scrapped: Five Easy Pieces
That's a pity, because the solution you hinted at is great. So I tried to come up with a backroute-fix myself, cf. attachment.

@möbius: Please check whether you agree with my changes and whether this is (at least somewhat) close to your intended solution.
@everyone: Please try to backroute this version.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2017, 11:17:54 pm »
The Pit (Quirky): Exploders 1->0, final builder is less precise. The fling-exploder was misleading, it allowed many wrong ideas that started promising. Without the exploder, the level is worthy of Quirky, whereas before it seemed too hard.

Nepster: I tried for 10 minutes to backroute your 5Steps, didn't get any solution.

-- Simon

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2017, 12:27:13 am »
mobius: Please provide your replays for the most recent versions of Exit Stage Right, Cold Irons Bound, It Takes Time to Build.

I have attached my replays for Ascension and As Good as Dead. Check whether these are intended / acceptable; if not then provide replays of intended solutions.

Attached the intended solution(s). Cold and Time to build have more skills than necessary and allow for some leeway.

the other levels are intended. Ascension has a few different solutions; all acceptable. @ geoo's comment in IRC: is it really that precise? I specifically modified the edge of the pillars to avoid precision. Actually the level doesn't seem to work without this modification. I told Simon this; digging next to a straight wall makes odd behavior (easily makes notches in the wall). The walls could be modified even further I guess.

@möbius: Please check whether you agree with my changes and whether this is (at least somewhat) close to your intended solution.
@everyone: Please try to backroute this version.

this is pretty nice! If it works; I like it. But it may still require backroute testing...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2017, 12:43:11 pm »
Proposed backroute-fix for Exit Stage Right.

Regarding Cold Irons Bound:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It Takes Time to Build: My only remaining issue is that the extra skills don't really give enough leeway, with the lose-4 save requirement. May we change this to lose-5 (as geoo suggested earlier)?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 01:50:54 pm by Proxima »

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2017, 06:31:19 pm »
New updated levels (see attached)

I didn't realize that in Path to Mahiman you could just follow the trail; I thought it involved finding a good spot to clip through the ceiling. Now with that idea in mind, but considering that clipping through ceilings is ugly, I made a new version that instead gives you a basher. I think this version is much more interesting, while rather short once you know the solution.
I update The Pit to eliminate Nepster's simple solution, in addition to Simon's already existing changes.
I changed It Takes Time to Build to address Nepster's and my issues with it. In the new version, there is a lot of leeway, it's back to platformers to bridge the gap while at the same time you still have to release the top lixes facing left otherwise they drown. Unless the leeway allows for some strange backroutes, I think this version should work very nicely.


Issues with proposed levels.

Quote
Duality: that pointed area left of the upper hatch must be this way; it forces you to use at least two skills there (digger and miner) to hold back the crowd.
I don't get this. If it were simply flat (and maybe a bit widened to ease execution), it'd still force you to use at least two skills.
Btw I just realized that the level can be solved with a builder to spare. If you look at my solution, it'll be obvious how considering your comment.

Quote
Ascension has a few different solutions; all acceptable. @ geoo's comment in IRC: is it really that precise? I specifically modified the edge of the pillars to avoid precision. Actually the level doesn't seem to work without this modification. I told Simon this; digging next to a straight wall makes odd behavior (easily makes notches in the wall). The walls could be modified even further I guess.
You don't need to be able to dig there at all, watch e.g. mine and Proxima's solutions. But it should either be easily possible, or impossible altogether. Right now, it's four pixel-precise diggers, two of which are also frame-precise, and as the terrain is misaligned (odd coordinate) on the left, it even looks like there's a tiny overhang after you dig, but the climbers can still scale it.
If you want to make it impossible, just make parts of the top platforms steel. If you want to make it easy, put some steel halfway down the pillar so you can just dig down in one go without much precision, until you hit steel.
Similarly, there's this horizontal overlap between the climbers' platform and the top platform (allowing the climbers to walk from the climbers' platform to the top platform). I think this overlap should either be much wider, or the platforms should align exactly so that even if you place a blocker at the very edge of the top platform, the climbers will turn around and not go to the exit. As it is right now, there are some solutions that require more precision than really necessary, e.g. one that saves two extra lix (see attached), but also variations thereof.

My previous solution to Five Easy Pieces still works in Nepster's fix, see attached.

Cold Iron's Bound has another solution different from the ones we had so far, see attached.

Exit Stage Right looks backroute free as far as I can tell now. Only minor complaint is that the one-way gadget above the platformer gap doesn't allow for jumping over the gap now which always used to be possible (thus reducing options to think about), but I think in the current version that actually prevents a backroute exploiting this.


Reorderings

I think Icho's suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt if they actually pertain to NeoLemmix versions of levels. As far as I know, some levels have changed quite notably.
I remember when I proposed Recycling Plant, Steve (and Proxima too if I remember?) though the level might be too hard for the opener of Hopeless. I can't really tell how hard it is, but I like it as an opener to Hopeless.
Bashing and Building I remember having trouble with, but based on someone's feedback (I don't remember) I put it in Vicious in the end. The solution is quite simple, but I don't object to moving it to Hopeless if we have another level to move down. I think it's a similar story to Oh No Not Again, once you know the solution it's quite simple, but it's hard to come up with it. I think the only level where there's some consensus that it could be moved down from Hopeless is Broadway Tinker Tailor.

I'd be ok with moving Parking Garage past One Step Off as Nepster brought up. I was musing about that back in the day actually.

Regarding the other ranks, I think Conundrum and Death or Glory are fine where they are. I don't have strong opinions on any of the other ones.


Cullings

I think the levels with consensus are Digging the air, Babylon Fading, When the Levee Breaks (and maybe Path to Mahiman if you think my remake sucks).
But that might already be enough if we don't want to swap in too many new levels.

There is still One-Lix Showdown that was proposed to go in? To replace one of these levels, or to replace Make You Mine?


Simple (Lovely) levels

Some thought I had, which isn't urgent and could be discussed and implemented later:

With the new tile sets, I think it'd be great to have a few prettier levels early in the game. For instance, Building Block Maze is rather plain and could be replaced by a level that maintains the spirit and looks pretty.

I was also a bit afraid players might be bored by the slog of lots-of-everything levels, and maybe things could be mixed up a little early on with some simple 2 or 3 skill puzzles, where there's not much to try (and you only need to understand 2 or 3 skills which doesn't take much time experimenting). In particular, I think some of the repeats (i.e. levels reused from harder ranks with a more generous skill set slapped onto them) could be replaced by something more interesting. One proposition I have, see attached is Beneath the Lab. It could go instead of a level like Four Corners, Let's All Go Down the Strand, The Road Not Taken or Alternative Route Recommended (possibly with some minor re-orderings to ensure variety), or possibly even Four Color Circus or Blocked by a Snowball (which is very close to Hrududu, two levels which are "place a blocker, build a path, release the crowd").

« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:57:18 pm by geoo »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2017, 06:52:51 pm »
Thanks everyone for feedback, new levels/edits and replays. We're under a bit of time pressure considering Simon wants to make a stable release, but everyone's put in some hard work to help things run smoothly.

In the next few days, I'll have another look over everything in this thread and then make final decisions. For now, a few quick responses to parts of geoo's post:

Quote
I think the levels with consensus are Digging the air, Babylon Fading, When the Levee Breaks (and maybe Path to Mahiman if you think my remake sucks).
But that might already be enough if we don't want to swap in too many new levels.

There is still One-Lix Showdown that was proposed to go in? To replace one of these levels, or to replace Make You Mine?
I like "Babylon Fading" myself, although with a couple of votes against, it's definitely a candidate for swapping out. It would be nice to make room for Theresa, if we can fully backroute-fix the level.

One-Lix Showdown is proposed to replace Lixes in Arms.

One consideration that hasn't been brought up yet: This is a Lemmings Forums community set, so I don't think we should include remakes of levels by authors outside the community (Martin Zurlinden, Yawg, t3tesla). I wouldn't be completely against it if we had gaps to fill, but the opposite is the case: we have too many levels and are struggling to decide which to leave out.

Another reason for excluding these levels is that we can't ask the original authors for their intended solutions. Mobius really likes "Duality", but geoo and I both found it much easier than mobius rated it, so our solutions are probably backroutes; but without knowing the intended solution, how can we go about fixing them?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 07:02:21 pm by Proxima »

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2017, 08:06:41 pm »
I like the new Path to Mahiman.
Also attached a replay to Sinking Ship. For the version with decoration I would raise the exit platform a bit. In the current version, I didn't really know whether the lix would survive the fall from the top plank of the big ship or not.
Regarding Mass Lixicide: There is slight modification of the intended(?) solution that has one builder spare. I doubt that this builder can be used to create an actual backroute, but I still wanted to mention this solution.

Quote
My previous solution to Five Easy Pieces still works in Nepster's fix, see attached.
Thanks. I made a few changes and can no longer adapt your solution now.

Quote
Mobius really likes Duality, but geoo and I both found it much easier than mobius rated it, so our solutions are probably backroutes; but without knowing the intended solution, how can we go about fixing them?
And there is the attached alternative solution, that's arguably even more problematic than the ones posted so far.

Quote
Cold Iron's Bound has another solution different from the ones we had so far, see attached.
And here is another problem: The save-all solution of "It takes time to build" and (what I imagine to be the intended) solution to "Cold Iron's Bound" are pretty similar. So either we have to modify "It takes time to build" again (though I don't know how to prevent the attached solution), or cull (this new version of) "Cold Iron's Bound".

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2017, 07:58:53 am »
Regarding It takes time to build: I thought at some point that we eliminated the double digger cancelling from the physics (by having the very last frame in the cycle remove terrain), but it seems like it didn't happen after all. I don't think there's much that can be done about this, without a physics change.

Five Easy Pieces still has my backroute. Only difference at the end is that you jump over the blocker, turn with the miner, and bat towards the exit instead.

EDIT: Attached Sinking Ship with the lifeboat moved up, as Nepster suggested.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 08:14:32 am by geoo »

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 04:37:09 pm »
Thanks, geoo, for this variation of the backroute to Five Easy Pieces. The attached level should fix this. The solving replay is the same that I already attached to my previous post.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 05:05:59 pm »
New hackjob deluxe backroute to Five Easy Pieces.

And I updated Pain Train to make execution easier considering the change in digger/steel interaction.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 05:17:24 pm »
Okay. Thanks again to everyone who contributed to discussion and work on the levelpack. I've decided to go ahead with the following changes:

Update these levels (with the latest versions from mobius' zip unless otherwise stated):
Q11 Migration -> Slaughterhouse
Q18 Path to Mahiman (geoo's version)
Q34 The Pit (geoo's version)
Q35 Exit, Stage Right (my version)
Q36 Tower of Babel
C15 It Takes Time to Build (geoo's version)
D4 Over My Head
D17 Lixes in Motion
V2 Conundrum (keep this title)
V14 Five for Fighting
V30 All Aboard the Pain Train (from above post)

Remove these levels:
L14 Four Color Circus
C10 Diggin' the Air
C13 When the Levee Breaks
C18 Cold Irons Bound
V10 Lixes in Arms

Move these levels:
L11 A Necklace of Raindrops -> L14
Q18 Path to Mahiman -> Q35
Q35 Exit, Stage Right -> C10
C4 It's a Long Way Up -> C13
C36 Once You Pop, You Can't Stop -> C18
C37 The Rainbow Road -> C4
D19 Dances with Lixes -> V13
D34 Seven Pillars of Lixdom -> C36
V13 Cuber Replacement -> D19
V31 Bashing & Building -> H17
V33 Hellfire -> D34
H17 Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix -> V31

Add these levels:
Beneath the Lab -> L11
Forest of Fears -> Q18
As Good as Dead -> C37 (change exploder to imploder)
One-Lix Showdown -> V10
Theresa falls up the stairs -> V33 (most recent version; keep this title)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 05:40:36 pm »
Here another version of Theresa falls up the stairs (formerly Five Easy Pieces) with a larger gap to the left of the hatch.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 09:13:55 pm »
Here another version of Theresa falls up the stairs (formerly Five Easy Pieces) with a larger gap to the left of the hatch.

where/what set do those platforms come from? They are nice but I've not seen them before.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2017, 02:22:53 am »
Everything until here is merged into Lix 0.7.14, including Proxima's changelist and Nepster's Theresa with larger gap at left.

-- Simon

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2017, 12:01:10 pm »
Community pack has 100% coverage for 0.7.14 physics, see: https://github.com/SimonN/lemforum-replays

Get Hype from Vicious needed small changes (one extra lix, making the rightmost barrier slightly smaller) to work with the delayed digger. Level is attached.

I also covered the two levels Proxima said still need changes in order for the intended solution to work, so check if those are backroutes.


The only other change that I still propose is replacing Bulldozer with Sinking Ship.

EDIT: Another backroute for Theresa.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 03:15:37 pm by geoo »

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2017, 04:06:44 pm »
I tried lots of difficult ways to jump across there, but somehow forgot to check the easiest way. :-[ So here another version of Theresa.

EDIT: Yet another version, because geoo just found another way to backroute it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 04:43:15 pm by Nepster »

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2017, 09:23:27 pm »
I guess this is another backroute?

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2017, 04:13:06 pm »
Yes, this is yet another backroute. Attached are two new versions:
- theresa.txt: A fix for geoo's latest backroute, which keeps the steel-mining to turn a lix.
- theresa V2.txt: A daring change that replaces the five steel steps with usual terrain. This prevents any turning by steel-mining, but allows freeing the blocker with the miner instead. I remember that in the NeoLemmix version möbius made the steps deliberately steel, but at the moment I cannot see a good reason for this, provided the platforms are very thin. Most likely I just overlooked a very simple backroute, but if this should by some miracle work, then I would prefer this version over the previous one.

EDIT: geoo found some more backroutes to theresa.txt, but the intended solution to theresa V2.txt. So if you want to try to backroute this level, please focus on theresa V2.txt.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:08:44 pm by Nepster »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2023
  • The Owls are not what they seem
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2017, 12:13:09 am »
Yes, this is yet another backroute. Attached are two new versions:
- theresa.txt: A fix for geoo's latest backroute, which keeps the steel-mining to turn a lix.
- theresa V2.txt: A daring change that replaces the five steel steps with usual terrain. This prevents any turning by steel-mining, but allows freeing the blocker with the miner instead. I remember that in the NeoLemmix version möbius made the steps deliberately steel, but at the moment I cannot see a good reason for this, provided the platforms are very thin. Most likely I just overlooked a very simple backroute, but if this should by some miracle work, then I would prefer this version over the previous one.

EDIT: geoo found some more backroutes to theresa.txt, but the intended solution to theresa V2.txt. So if you want to try to backroute this level, please focus on theresa V2.txt.

originally the steps were thick brick, then I made them steel then I went back to brick with holes in them or part steel... I tried different things, I don't remember ever trying very thin platforms. (this was also in NL without jumpers and batters and runners).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)



possible update for 'sauce for the goose' to remove a solution found by multiple people. Not sure if this will be better than before; the goal is to make it harder/more interesting, if that hasn't worked then disregard this fix.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 01:06:59 am by möbius »

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1459
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2017, 06:33:32 pm »
Quote
Are the runners necessary...
No, one can actually solve the level without the runners, but this requires quite a lot precision. So I added the runners for the very purpose you used them for.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2017, 03:11:55 pm »
Vicious/Down Among the Dead Lix: Slight terrain change to remove Clam's br. Replay included.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2017, 04:01:23 pm »
Replay for the new version of Sauce for the Goose.

mobius: At the moment I'm not planning to include the level Duality, since it seems to have lots of backroutes and the original author isn't around to ask about his intended solution. Still, could you post your replay? That would help me get an idea of whether it might be worth doing more work on the level.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2017, 10:08:35 pm »
Hopeless/Divison of Labor: Slight terrain change to remove backroute found by both Nepster and Simon. Replay included.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:44 pm »
Let's All Go Down the Strand adjusted to match Get Hype.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2017, 09:03:59 am »
Proxima suggested removing the alternative routes from Empty Space.

Below is my attempt at that, what do you think?

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2017, 05:06:30 pm »
Instead, I was contemplating this sort of change to Empty Space:

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2017, 01:25:56 am »
Everything until here is merged into Lix 0.7.19. I used Proxima's Empty Space.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 01:46:32 am by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2017, 03:05:34 pm »
Can we rename Cuber Replacement? Previous levels do not suggest that cubers in particular are the go-to tool for making a digger continue.

Consider culling L13 "Let's block and blow?" C4 "The Rainbow Road" uses the same trick, and is more impactful if this trick isn't spoonfed to the player earlier.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2017, 05:00:07 pm »
In favor of renaming Cuber Replacement.

Let's Block and Blow? is cute, nontrivial, and flingbombs which is already underrepresented. Very good level, I'd love even more cute levels, like Beneath the Lab. Flopsy solving Let's Block and Blow? was perfect, got it after 2 rewinds.

I accept the argument that Rainbow Road packs more punch without Let's Block and Blow. If we replace Let's Block and Blow at all, the replacement should be cute, and ideally have a simple fling-exploder.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:23:58 pm by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2017, 08:44:59 pm »
On looking again, the trick in Let's Block and Blow? (given the fling bomber) is a bit different from the trick in Rainbow Road, so I think we can keep both.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2017, 10:21:17 pm »
Sinking Ship: Attached an almost-solution that saves 32 where 35/40 are required. I had 34 before that looked the same.

I don't see clear ways how to improve on this. But it's too close to 35 to feel entirely off. geoo, please judge. Bulldozer lacked clarity of why exactly (saving 60 where 80/120 are required) failed, encouraging to fidget towards 80. It would be sad if Sinking Ship had the same problem.

Edit: Attached a 35. Still looks the same as before. The save requirement feels overly tight.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:30:11 pm by Simon »

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1263
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2017, 10:52:59 am »
Instead, I was contemplating this sort of change to Empty Space:
Alas, this doesn't work as you can just use a climber (or even builder for Ramon's solution) from the inside of the box to elevate the bomber hole.


Quote
Can we rename Cuber Replacement? Previous levels do not suggest that cubers in particular are the go-to tool for making a digger continue.
I think the name is rather appropriate as the player places a cube and something that very much resembles a cube (a replacement, or alternative or maybe you can find a better word) in the level. I don't see any allusion to the cube as go-to tool for continued digger in there.

Or Maybe "Build Your Own Cube" or something like that?


Attached is a version of Sinking Ship that should eliminate Simon's solution. Please tell me if it still looks like you can get close enough to the requirement to try pushing this solution through.
EDIT: If this is not good enough, attached is an even more extreme variation (V2b), it's also a bit uglier.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 11:17:06 am by geoo »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2017, 10:30:16 pm »
My backroute idea fails on both versions by large margin. I found these solutions instead. They look intended.

I'd pick Sinking Ship v2 for the pack, over Bulldozer. v2b looks good to me too, but if you like v2 better, we should use v2.

-- Simon

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2017, 07:47:29 am »
Everything until here is in Lix 0.7.22.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 07:53:50 am by Simon »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1984
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2017, 11:49:41 am »
Forest of Fears had two backroutes in 0.8.0.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

De-backrouted level here. Include this in 0.8.1?



-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 12:04:30 pm by Simon »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 3066
    • View Profile
Re: Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2017, 06:09:23 pm »
D24 Over the Hump is very similar to the earlier level Lixes in Motion. I suggest replacing it with Duality (from mobius' post here) and switching it with D29 Round Trip.

Duality is easier than mobius' post suggests, but is still an interesting and fun mid-difficulty level.