Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread  (Read 18387 times)

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Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2017, 07:50:38 am »
Thanks for the comments! I am good with a stream at 18:00 UTC (seems to be 7:00 PM UK time) so I'll be there! I have no changes to the Egypt tribe in the pipeline so hopefully it should all be mostly intended solutions.

Happy that you enjoyed the Space tribe. I wasn't so sure that explosions and jetpacks were going to go down so well as they can be a bit fiddly at times.

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Offline Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2017, 09:11:01 pm »


QFK v6 Egyptian by geoo and Simon -- this stream shows both geoo's and my gameplay. This comes close to ccexplore's with for watching a race live. :lix-grin: Will expire in 14 days.

Thanks for Kieran for joining twitch chat!

In case you had preferred not to make a twitch account: An alternative for chatting during the livestream would have been IRC (irc.quakenet.org #lix and #neolemmix, webchat). We sit there often, even when not streaming.

During streams, twitch is better anyway. It's one chatroom for all viewers, and twitch saves the chat along with the vod for 14 days.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 09:18:01 pm by Simon »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2017, 10:05:08 pm »
The next update is almost here but still have some stuff to do and ran out of time today, so expect it tomorrow. My changelog has a whopping 22 levels listed for changes, some minor, some major. I'll also give you the following sneak peeks of what else is to come:




Offline Raymanni

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2017, 10:19:51 pm »
I just played L2 recently so it will be a blast to try these out :D

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2017, 08:33:43 pm »
It's finally here! Version 7 attached to the first post! This update brings the Cavelems Tribe, but because the thematic skills I chose combined with the pretty but really awkward to use tileset resulted in a lot of fan use, I figured some people might not like it so much, so also bundled along for the ride is the crowd-favourite Classic Tribe!

Note that the Classic Tribe is the first (and will probalby be the only) tribe where you are allowed to lose lemmings and still get a gold. To prevent annoying guesswork and trial and error, each level of the tribe states in the level title how many lemmings you are allowed to lose.

v07 changelog:
  • New Tribe: Cavelems Tribe!
  • New Tribe: Classic Tribe!
  • Beach 5 Turn the Tide - Backroute fix by enforcing use of flame thrower to free crowd.
  • Beach 6 Hang Sixty - Backroute fix, blocking off area behind beer can and made intended solution even easier to pull off.
  • Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Wow, I didn't even know you could surf through the steel. Obviously a bug, now fixed.
  • Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Less precision needed.
  • Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Major revisions. Level simplified and shrunk slightly, skills changed significantly.
  • Egyptian 2 The Hardening Chamber - Fixed geoo's backroute, removed spare sand pourer.
  • Egyptian 7 Inner Sanctum - Fix geoo's backroute.
  • Egyptian 9 Eye Drops - Major rework, level is shorter, has less skills, simpler to execute and a quicker to traverse layout. Now its more of an actual puzzle instead of a playpen
  • Egyptian 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Some backroute fixes. Nepster's backroute probably unfixable without making the intended route tedious.
  • Space 1 Introducing: Space - Backroute fix.
  • Space 4 Gravity Chamber - Knocked out wall and swapped Jetpack for 2 Jumpers.
  • Space 7 Satellite Junk - Major rework, removed Jumper skill, made jetpacking easier where possible, and all sorts of minor changes.
  • Space 8 Space Rescue - Increased time limit by a minute.
  • Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Rasied starting platform and telporter to fix backroute.
  • Space 10 Alternate Dimension - Backroute fix.
  • Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Removed misleading decorative spiky bits.
  • Sports 5 Give it the Run Around - Backroute fix.
  • Sports 6 Tour De Farce - Backroute fix.
  • Sports 7 The Home Stretch - Straighting ramp to exit for backroute fix (I want the exit raised up so it appears in the starting screen).
  • Sports 8 Pole Position - Major overhaul and simplification to fix longstanding backroute problems once and for all. I may have gone overboard...
  • Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course - Removed red-herring steel block near entrance that opened up backroute.
  • Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Steel near exit for backroute fix, fixed tennis balls so that they actually work.

Classic Tribe: Gameplay differences
While making the Classic Tribe I ended up learning a lot about how Lemmings 2 is different to Lemmings 1 in ways that might surprise you, so to prevent surprises, here's some things you should know. Note that all of the levels had to be specifically designed to accomodate or avoid some of these behaviours, but where ideas didn't work, at least Quest From Kieran 1 got some new levels :D
  • L2 assigns skills to the first lemming out of the hatch that is under your cursor. If the first lemming chosen cannot be assigned the skill for whatever reason, the game stops there and does not look for the next valid target. This means that assigning skills next to blockers may cause the assignment to fail if the blocker was first out of the hatch.
  • Exploders still exist where they blew up until the entire shower of pixels is off-screen, so you may be unable to assign any skills to other lemmings in the area where they blew up for a couple of seconds.
  • Exploders do not remove any terrain if the lemming was falling when his timer ends!
  • At the top of their climb, climbers may climb through 1 or 2 pixels thick overhangs.
  • Miners do not turn on steel.

Oh yeah, the Cavelems Tribe has the Icarus Wings skill, which is pretty ass to control and has some issues, so here's some pointers:
  • It is extremely susceptible to the fan, so I highly recommend either tapping it very lightly, or holding it really far away.
  • There are some issues with it detaching when you smack it into terrain. If you want to land it on a spear which is one pixel thick, the lemming will often fall through, so smack him into a wall or the ceiling instead is my advice.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:11:29 pm by kieranmillar »

Offline Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 08:26:00 am »
Moved Kieran's excellent instructions how to install DOSBox and play L2 to the Help board.

-- Simon

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2017, 04:14:10 pm »
Have you wanted to play this pack, but don't like Lemmings 2 and its dodgy interface? Well I'm happy to meet you half way. Now you can play the Classic Tribe in Neolemmix in Quest From Kieran 2 : NeoClassic, you'll find it attached to the first post.

Note that due to gameplay differences, some very minor terrain adjustments had to be made to make drops that are safe in Lemmings 2 also safe in Neolemmix, as Lemmings 2 has almost double the safe fall distance.

I was in two minds whether or not to make changes over the difference where miners turn when they hit steel in Neolemmix, but not in Lemmings 2. In the end I didn't, but I have a suspicion that a backroute or two may open up as a result. If you find any, maybe I'll make changes.

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2017, 08:59:50 pm »
Tried some of the backroute fixes in Space, Egypt and Beach. I'm still stuck on Beach 9 and 10, I have almost-solutions to both...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2017, 10:01:21 pm »
Thanks for the screenshots
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2017, 07:10:51 pm »
I solved both new tribes and the updated levels, except the totally mysterious Sport 4 (Nice catch). One comment to Classic in general: Can you swap the title and the requirement, so that the "lose xy" is displayed on the second line? This would look a lot better, in my opinion. Screenshots attached as usual.

Cave (click to show/hide)
Classic (click to show/hide)
Beach (click to show/hide)
Egypt (click to show/hide)
Space (click to show/hide)
Sport (click to show/hide)

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2017, 08:50:08 pm »
Solved the remaining updated levels, except for Sports 4 (pretty stumped on that one). I haven't touched the new levels yet, though we might try them out with Simon tomorrow night.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT: Finally solved Sports 4, but it's quite hackish.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 09:27:56 pm by geoo »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2017, 09:14:26 pm »
Thanks again Nepster. I'd like to push an update before tomorrow's possible stream, so thanks for finding more backroutes.

Beach (click to show/hide)

Cave (click to show/hide)

Classic (click to show/hide)

Egyptian (click to show/hide)

Space (click to show/hide)

Sports (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2017, 10:15:50 pm »
Thanks again geoo.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2017, 02:58:18 pm »
Version 8 attached to the first post. Another big update. Neoclassic won't be updated just yet in case more changes are needed after the possible upcoming stream.

v08 changelog:
  • Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - More steel *sigh*
  • Cave 4 Get Stuck In - At last, adding steel for quality of life purposes instead of backroute fixes.
  • Cave 5 Flappy Lem - This, on the other hand, is steel to fix a backroute.
  • Cave 6 Survival of the Fastest - Terrain tweaks for quality of life.
  • Cave 8 Dino Might - More backroute fixes involving steel.
  • Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Another backroute fix involving steel.
  • Classic level titles now put the lose info after the main title. Some titles changed slightly to better accommodate this.
  • Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Use steel to fix backroute.
  • Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Use steel to fix backroute.
  • Classic 3 Hangman - Use steel to fix backroute.
  • Classic 4 Escort Mission - Major revisions, skills also changed slightly.
  • Classic 5 Overflow - Now a Lose 0 level, trap removed.
  • Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Now a Lose 3 level, skills reduced slightly.
  • Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Backroute fixes, number of builders reduced by 1.
  • Classic 8 The Lowlands - Major revisions, skill changes, now Lose 2.
  • Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - Backroute fix by moving some terrain.
  • Classic 10 The Water Tower - Backroute fix by swapping a Basher for a Miner.
  • Egypt 7 Inner Sanctum - Backroute fixes.
  • Egypt 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Removed 5 sand pourers due to previous changes making things need less resources.
  • Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Changed beginning of level to show off necessary mechanic in the hope that people more likely to figure it out. Added shimmier.
  • Sports 4 Nice Catch! - Now Sports 8, small adjustment made to reduce chance of backroute due to skill randomly failing.
  • Sports 6 (now 5) Tour De Farce - A number of backroute fixes.
  • Sports 7 (now 6) The Home Stretch - A number of backroute fixes. Removed Runner skill.
  • Sports 8 (now 7) Pole Position - Minor change to make execution a bit easier. One basher removed.
  • Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Backroute fixes.

Offline Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2017, 09:22:31 am »
I solved Nice Catch on stream, then raced geoo in Cavelems and Classic.

Vod of my play, with geoo's and my voice
Vod of geoo's play

Kieran and Raymanni stayed in chat the entire time, thanks!



geoo won the Cavelem race by 2 minutes, really close. I won the Classic race because geoo didn't want to backroute Richard's Cliff.

The races have been good fun, looking forward to have more!

Ideally, I'd manage to include geoo's broadcast into my own stream, in a corner. I've looked into local RTMP servers, and while I can test-stream to a server running on my own machine, I haven't managed to watch from it yesterday.

Rage sources, sorted by severity, 1 is severest:
  • L2 has abysmal assignment code.
  • L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.
  • Tiring after 3 hours of Jazz runs, then 6 hours of L2 racing.
  • L2 offsets assigned builders and blockers towards the right.
  • Nicely rarely: Unnecessary demand for execution in Kieran's designs. Out of the 25 levels that I played on stream, I suggested at most two easenings of execution, in Spiral Staircase and Bass the Baton. Well done, Kieran, in keeping this number low, I know you kept an eye on this!
-- Simon
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:35:30 am by Simon »