Author Topic: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!  (Read 14937 times)

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Offline Nepster

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NeoLemmix has an ever growing variety of options and hotkeys. Among them are certainly some that noone still uses, because once upon a time they were useful, but newer features made them redundant. These clutter the options menu and make NeoLemmix harder to use for new players. So to determine which options and hotkeys are actually in use, I would appreciate if you could
1) Send me your file NeoLemmix147Settings.ini (located in the same directory as your NeoLemmix.exe).
2) Tell me what hotkey functions you used during the last two or three months. If you haven't played levels recently, then extend the time period as appropriate.
3) Tell me whether you use any of the Debug option (like Infinite Skills or Skill Overrides).
Either post your answers here or send me a PM.

After some time (probably when one week passed without anyone answering/sending me anything), I will post a summary and we can discuss which options to cull.

Offline Simon

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »
1) Attached.
2) I've remapped nearly everything that I use, so I've attached the hotkeys. Maybe I've remapped even what I don't use. I don't believe I know precisely what I've used either. I'd probably err towards listing too many keys because it's easy to conjure scenarios where they'd be useful.
3) Never used them, but I don't build or maintain NL levels.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 06:27:43 PM by Simon »

Online Proxima

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2017, 06:34:12 PM »
I've attached mine as well; I haven't used NL much because DROD takes up most of my gaming time, but I'm definitely interested in playing when I have time.

Hotkeys: I use save replay, load replay, directional select, pause, restart level, forward and back 1 second, and forward 10 seconds.

Never used debug options.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 09:55:57 PM »
1) attached

2) I use the standard layout. Most used hotkeys are: Time skips, pause, FF, savestates, hightlighting, directional select, walker select, replay, toggle music/sound.....
    ---> It would be better to list what I don't use ;P:  I select all skils via mouse, so I don't use hotkeys for skills, RR, nuke. Also the edit replay feature isn't used, I rather see the stuff. But I think that's about it.

3) never used the debug mode. ---> the editor is the debug mode     so I recommed cull there ;)  YES ICHO SAYS CULL!! :lem-mindblown:

Offline bulletride

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 10:11:48 PM »
I use frame skip back/forward (big skip and little skip for each), ff, restart,  save/load replay, cancel replay, image, pause, directional select, select walker, clear physics, toggle music, select lemming, quit. Never noticed the fall distance one but I will use that now as well!

I have never used a debug option besides the one that validates your levels (if that even counts).

Offline exit

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2017, 11:54:35 PM »
1) Attached

2) Things I use: pause, zoom in/out, clear physics mode, frame skips, next/previous skill (i.e. the hotkeys that scroll along the skill bar), fast forward, fall distance template, restart, and quit.

3) Never used any of the debug options.

Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 12:42:28 AM »
I've never used debug mode; not even sure at the moment what it's for.  Isn't just using the editor as easy as whatever that's for?

I use pretty much all of the hotkeys (that I know of; I'm sure there are a couple I do not, as it seems I can never keep up), maybe not all of them constantly but save state, reverse, forward all have uses. I rarely use clear physics mode. I don't use edit replay feature; being new though I haven't read up on it or even understand it. But honestly, from what I can guess, it seems superfluous.

If the save state system gets changed like namida said he planned; I most definitely will continue using that.
I use the minimap exclusively to scroll. I never move the mouse to the border to scroll in fact I dislike this feature; I'd prefer having to hold down another button to move the screen or something along the lines which Lix does.


I might put this in the other or a new topic/// Don't let me hijack the thread//

The "Don't replay on Backwards frameskips" button option is still wacky;

-leaving this unchecked [Which upon reading it a user would assume means Replay WILL happen on a backwards frame skip] no replay happens on backwards frame skip.
-Checking doesn't effect backwards frame skip at all; but rather makes no replay happen on restarting. ??? ???

Okay to make it as clear as I possibly can; here is exactly what I personally would prefer:
-no replay on backwards frame skip; whether option or permanent, as long as it's possible.
-replaying on restarting
-a separate button to restart WITHOUT replaying.

With the current options this isn't possible to choose the latter two options while playing a level it's only permanently set to one or the other.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 10:49:47 AM »
I use default hotkey config.

Used very often
- Restart
- Pause (via middle click)
- Fall distance ruler
- Fast forward
- Load replay
- Frameskips (one frame, forward 10sec, back 1sec)
- Select walker
- Directional select
- Zoom

Used less often but still fairly frequently
- Replay insert
- Edit replay
- Clear physics
- Save replay
- Pause (via P)
- Frameskips (forward 5 sec, back 5 sec)
- Highlight

Rarely used
- Save image
- Release mouse
- Cheat
- Select unused lemming
- Show athlete info

Never use during normal gameplay (ie: excludes testing or unusual circumstances)
- Skill selection (including "previous skill" / "next skill")
- Toggle sound / music
- Cancel replay
- Save / load state (but this might change in the future due to the improvements to these features)

Anything not listed here, I forgot; it should not be assumed it falls into "never use".

Some of these, although I don't personally use often, there is good reason to keep them. For example, the "select unused lemming" key is rarely useful during normal gameplay, but crucial for talisman challenges with a "one skill per lemming" requirement.

Please note, the config file I've attached is from a V10.13.16 experimental.



Quote
If the save state system gets changed like namida said he planned; I most definitely will continue using that.
Latest experimental already includes this, try it out. :)
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Offline Gronkling

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 11:09:08 AM »
Big list of hotkeys (click to show/hide)

I have never used a debug option in my life.

Offline bsmith

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2017, 04:00:03 PM »
I have not used several of the hotkeys for newer stuff simply because I am not familiar with all the features the NeoLemmix engine now has.

The keys I use all the time are all the time control stuff.
Keys that I use less often but still regularly use are the release rate, nuke, directional select, clear physics, and replays.
Keys I used to use (on older engines or non-neolemmix engines) are the select skill button keys; with the current skill system I find it easier to use the mouse to select skills.

Offline Apjjm

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 08:21:35 PM »
Attached

I mainly use the default hotkeys, but with save replay mapped to "S". I use pause through both F11 (out of habit) and P (if i remember it is on P).
I sometimes toggle the mode for seeing triggers on some levels.

Often used
Restart
Pause
Fall distance ruler
Fast forward & frameskips
Walker select & directional select
Save replay (I don't auto-save unless I am testing levels for others).

Sometimes used
Highlighting
Toggle music
Save/Load state
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Offline Akseli

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 06:26:49 PM »
I haven't changed settings or hotkeys and I haven't used debug options.

Default hotkeys I use very often:
- Restart
- Quit
- Pause (F11)
- Select skills (F3-F10)
- Fast forward
- Skip 10 seconds
- Save state and load state
- Save replay and load replay
- Directional select

Hotkeys I started using pretty often just recently:
- Fall distance template
- Clear physics mode

Hotkeys I use sometimes:
- Toggle sound and toggle music
- Highlight a lemming

Stuff I do with my mouse:
- Click to cancel replay
- Click to skip one frame forward during pause
- Adjust release rate
- Select other skills than the original 8
- Browse minimap
- And very rarely one frame skip back clicking the button for it

Learned that there's "Select walker", I'll try to use a hotkey for that from now on instead of "Highlight lemming".





Offline Dullstar

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 11:41:50 PM »
I don't THINK I've rebound any of the hotkeys, but am vehemently against the removal of the option to rebind keys.
It's been a bit since I played so I had to remind myself what I normally use. I'm almost certainly using an older version of NeoLemmix right now. Will probably update it next time I do some serious playing.

 Most commonly used hotkeys:
 - Restart (R)
 - Cancel Replay (C)
 - Fast Forward (F)
 - Skip 10? Seconds (spacebar - not entirely certain if the time interval is correct, but if you start a builder and press space, the builder is laying the last brick).
 - Framestepping
 - Directional Select


Very rarely use:
Save state - I usually forget it exists and restart and play the replay back until I'm where I want to be. If I remembered it existed it would probably be more useful.

Situational:
 - Clear physics - I like the idea of it, but I mainly see it as a tool for dealing with really hard-to-read tilesets or for checking to see if something in an unfamiliar tileset is a trap. I actually don't know what the hotkey for it is, and I might not have ever downloaded the version it was added in.
 - Highlight lemming
 - Insert skill assignment without cancelling replay

Should get into the habit of using:
 - Select walker - IIRC my habit was to move the cursor around a bit until the lemming info says what I want it to.

Notably Never Use:
 - Click to cancel replay. I always either overwrite it with a new skill assignment, or cancel it with C - usually the latter.

I was going to request that "ignore replay skill selection" be kept because I hate the replay skill selection, but it looks like it was already culled a while ago, with the "ON" behavior kept, and the "OFF" behavior culled - i.e. exactly how I prefer it.

The only debug skill I could see being useful is Infinite Skills, since you could use it to try things that wouldn't normally be possible in a level without having to make an edit (for things like, say, the "Which levels can you beat using only one of each skill" challenge, for levels that don't give you at least one of each skill). I don't see much use in keeping the others around.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 11:47:46 PM by Dullstar »

Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 10:54:00 AM »
Quote
I don't THINK I've rebound any of the hotkeys, but am vehemently against the removal of the option to rebind keys.

The option to rebind hotkeys, in general, is not going to be removed. What is up for some consideration is (a) whether certain functions for hotkeys need to exist or can be removed; and possibly (b) whether the default hotkey layout should be changed.

Quote
- Skip 10? Seconds (spacebar - not entirely certain if the time interval is correct, but if you start a builder and press space, the builder is laying the last brick).

Yes, (by default) spacebar is a 10 second skip. The newest experimental versions (and future stable versions, obviously) have an even better feature for dealing with construction skills though - a key (by default, it's the ] key) which will skip until either (a) no lemming is platforming, building or stacking or (b) any lemming becomes a shrugger, even if other lemmings are still building / platforming / stacking. Especially useful if dealing with multiple constructive skills at the same time, or if dealing with stackers (which are finished much quicker than platformers or builders).

Quote
I was going to request that "ignore replay skill selection" be kept because I hate the replay skill selection, but it looks like it was already culled a while ago, with the "ON" behavior kept, and the "OFF" behavior culled - i.e. exactly how I prefer it.

Yeah, this was removed when the NXRP format for replays was introduced. NXRPs don't even save information on skill selection, only on skill assignments.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 07:34:38 PM »
Thank you all for your option settings and hotkey usage! :thumbsup:

In this post I will summarize the results of the poll and then make a second post regarding proposed changed.

Usage of Debug options:
Noone uses them.

NeoLemmix Options:
Save Successful Replays Automatically:    Yes: 8No: 6
Only Cancel Replay on Cancel Hotkey:    Yes: 0No: 14
Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskip:    Yes: 1      No: 13
Manually Saved Replay Naming:
      Auto, Overwrite Old File:Yes: 1
      Auto, Confirm Overwrite:Yes: 0
      Auto, Add Timestamp:Yes: 10
      Ask For Filename:Yes: 3
Enable Online Features:Yes: 9 No: 5
Enable Update Check:Yes: 5 No: 9
Update Styles Automatically:Yes: 2 No: 12
Pause After Backwards Frameskip:Yes: 10 No: 4
Lemming Count Blink:Yes: 1 No: 13
Timer Blink:Yes: 11 No: 3
Black Out Zero-Skill Count:Yes: 11 No: 3
Disable Background Images:Yes: 2 No: 12
Disable Skill Shadows:Yes: 0 No: 14      (Ron_Stard requested this)
Show Minimap:Yes: 8 No: 2
Zoom:
      Fullscreen:Yes: 9
      Windowed, 3x:Yes: 2
      Windowed, 4x:Yes: 3
Music Enabled:Yes: 10 No: 4
Sound Enabled:Yes: 12 No: 2
Success Jingle:Yes: 5 No: 9
Failure Jingle:Yes: 4 No: 10

Hotkey usage (sorted by frequency of usage)
Timeskip:    13   
Pause:    12
Directional Select Lem:    12
Fast Forward:    11
Restart Level:    10
Save/Load Replay:    10
Clear Physics Mode:    8
Fall Dist Template:    7
Quit:    7(Likely some forgot to mention this hotkey)
Highlight Lem:    7
Select Walker:    7
Toggle Music/Sound:    6
Save/Load State:    5
Save Image:    4
Select Skill:    4
Zoom In/Out:    4
Edit Replay:    4
Cancel Replay:    3
Inc/Dec RR:    2
Nuke:    2
Release Mouse:    2
Next/Prev Skill:    1
Replay Insert Mode:    1
Show Athlete Info:    1
Cheat:    1
Select Unused Lem:    0
Special Skip:    0
(Note: I haven't counted hotkeys that people say, they use only rarely.)

Edit: Corrected the counts for "Lemming Count Blink".
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:10:13 PM by Nepster »

Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2017, 07:35:00 PM »
Given the statistics above, I would like to discuss the following changes:

Remove all debug options
None seem to be using them, so it seems safe to remove them completely.

Remove option "Only Cancel Replay on Cancel Hotkey"
As noone uses this option, this seems a pretty obvious candidate for culling.

Reduce options in "Manually Saved Replay Naming"
It seems that adding timestamps supersedes asking for overwriting files, so I suggest culling the option "Auto, Confirm Overwrite".
Regarding "Auto, Overwrite Old File": Exit is the only one using it. As Exit auto-saves all replays anyway and does not use the "Save Replay" hotkey, I suspect this setting gets very little usage as well. Exit, are my assumptions on your usage correct? If so, I would recommend culling this option, too.

Remove or replace option "Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskip"
Apjjm is the only one using this option. Could you please tell us how important this setting is to you?
IIRC, möbius suggested this option, but complains that it doesn't work as he expects. So perhaps instead of completely removing this option, we can replace it by something that möbius and Apjjm like better?

Improve Online options
While the basic online features seem very well-liked, the more specialized ones seem less used. So I wonder whether we should replace them by buttons on the option menu? E.g. one could have one button that displays either
- "Try downloading new NL version" (if basic online features are disabled) or
- "Download new NL version" (if basic online features are enabled and NL out of date) or
- "NL is up to date" (if basic online features are enabled and one uses the current NL version)
But this might need a longer and more detailed discussion, so perhaps this thread is not the ideal place to put this suggestion forward.

Remove option "Lemming Count Blink"
Currently only Gronkling is using this option, who I would like to encourage sharing their thoughts on this option. Personally I feel that this is a relic from the times, where only the "total-save-requirement" got displayed and not the "still-to-save" and "currently-living-lems". So depending on Gronklings opinions, we might decide that this option is obsolete now.

Disable success and failure jingle by default
Currently these jingles are enabled by default, but the majority changed this setting. So I think the default should reflect this in the future.

Reformulate option settings to avoid double negations
When compiling the results of this poll, I realized that some of the options are formulated using a negation. They are probably better understandable if we reformulate them in a positive way. To cite Microsoft's User Interface Principles:
Quote
When writing the text for a check box, make sure it is easy to know what will happen when it is selected and when it is unselected, or cleared. The recommended option is to write the text directly as the result of the check box being selected. For example, write "Send me helpful information from your partners" instead of "Do not send me helpful information from your partners." While I can imagine many marketing people arguing about this particular example, I'm sure you know what I mean.
So I propose the following changes:
OLD
NEW
   Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskip     Replay After Backwards Frameskip
   Disable Background ImagesDisplay Background Images
   Disable Skill ShadowsDisplay Skill Shadows
Moreover (but less importantly) I suggest the following changes:
OLD
NEW
   Save Successful Replays Automatically     Automatically Save Successful Replays
   Enable Online FeaturesUse Online Features
   Enable Update CheckNotify me of new NeoLemmix versions

Remove some of the less-used hotkeys
Special Skip: This is a very recent addition, so let's keep it for now.
Select Unused Lem: Only namida uses this hotkey and even him only very rarely. It might be useful for talismans demanding no more than one skill per lemming, but as far as I know only 5 such talismans exist at all (and all of them in LPI-IV). So I suggest culling this hotkey.
Cheat: I am the only one using this hotkey regularly, so I say: Cull this hotkey!
Show Athlete Info: Only IchoTolot uses this hotkey. While I can see that it might be in some situations useful, it doesn't seem important to most players. So depending on IchoTolot's opinion, I would either cull this hotkey completely or at least do not assign any default key to this function.
Replay Insert Mode: At the moment only namida is using this, but this might again be due to being a relatively recent addition. So I would suggest keeping it for now, but check again after a few months, whether usage has increased or not.
Next/Prev Skill: Only Exit is using this hotkey. Given that we have specific hotkeys for skills and buttons on the screen, I wonder whether these hotkeys should be kept. Depending on Exit's opinions, I would either cull this hotkey completely or at least do not assign any default key to these functions.
Release Mouse: Given that this is only useful in windowed mode, 2 users out of 5 is not too bad. So let's keep this for now.
Nuke: Simon and bsmith are using this hotkey. Simon doesn't say anything about how often he uses this hotkey and bsmith uses it "less often but still regularly". As we have a quit hotkey and a nuke button, I would like further feedback, especially from Simon and bsmith whether this hotkey should be kept.
Inc/Dec RR: Currently these seem barely used. I would suggest keeping them, but not assigning any default hotkeys to them. See also the next suggestion.
Cancel Replay: Honestly, this surprised me! Given that the corresponding option is not used at all, there are still users who prefer to cancel replays via a hotkey instead of clicking on the screen. bulletride, Gronkling and Dullstar, please correct me if I misunderstood something.

Add a hotkey to wap between the minimum and maximum RR
There has been a discussion in IRC some days ago, how to make the RR hotkeys more useful. One suggestion was to have hotkeys that  jump to the most frequent RRs, namely the minimum and the maximum 99. To avoid having too many hotkeys, I therefore propose to combine these two hotkeys, which jumps to RR 99 whenever the current RR is less, and it jumps to the minimum RR if the current RR is 99.

Rename "Select Walker" to "Select Walking Lemming"
Given the new walker skill, I feel that the current name is ambiguous and should be more clearly distinguished from "Select Skill: Walker".

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2017, 09:37:22 PM »
Add me to the list of people that cancel replays with a hotkey. I do that all the time, it's actually right next to my pause button. That way I don't step forward one frame by clicking the screen.
Sometimes I use next/previous skill buttons, but I find myself just clicking on the skill bar quite often too. I'm kinda indifferent about this one.
I like the success/failure jingles, at least enough to use custom ones in my pack. Then again, turning them off by default seems to be a fine idea if most people have it off anyway.
I always manually name my replays, so I'm indifferent in this regard as well.
As for a release rate hotkey, I don't use it now that I figured out you can max/min the release rate with a right click on the -/+. If the hotkey did that as well I think it would be better.
I'm fairly indifferent about the others that were mentioned.

Offline Apjjm

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 08:32:52 PM »
Remove or replace option "Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskip"
Apjjm is the only one using this option. Could you please tell us how important this setting is to you?
IIRC, möbius suggested this option, but complains that it doesn't work as he expects. So perhaps instead of completely removing this option, we can replace it by something that möbius and Apjjm like better?
Edit: On second thought i don't think i care too much for this option. I use click to cancel replays. I prefer not having to click to cancel after a single backwards frameskip though, as i only ever do that if i intend to edit the replay. If i could bind back 1 frame and cancel replay to the same key (never tried) i guess that would work.
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Offline exit

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 10:04:38 PM »
Reduce options in "Manually Saved Replay Naming"
It seems that adding timestamps supersedes asking for overwriting files, so I suggest culling the option "Auto, Confirm Overwrite".
Regarding "Auto, Overwrite Old File": Exit is the only one using it. As Exit auto-saves all replays anyway and does not use the "Save Replay" hotkey, I suspect this setting gets very little usage as well. Exit, are my assumptions on your usage correct? If so, I would recommend culling this option, too.

You are correct, so go ahead and remove the option. I set this setting so that I wouldn't have to save replays manually, thinking I would need them, but I don't do much with replays anyway (or at least not enough to need to save one for each level I play :P).
 
Next/Prev Skill: Only Exit is using this hotkey. Given that we have specific hotkeys for skills and buttons on the screen, I wonder whether these hotkeys should be kept. Depending on Exit's opinions, I would either cull this hotkey completely or at least do not assign any default key to these functions.

I actually often find myself using the mouse to select skills, so this hotkey would not be missed. I would suggest outright removing this option.

Add a hotkey to w[r]ap between the minimum and maximum RR
There has been a discussion in IRC some days ago, how to make the RR hotkeys more useful. One suggestion was to have hotkeys that  jump to the most frequent RRs, namely the minimum and the maximum 99. To avoid having too many hotkeys, I therefore propose to combine these two hotkeys, which jumps to RR 99 whenever the current RR is less, and it jumps to the minimum RR if the current RR is 99.

If very few people use the hotkeys to increase and decrease the release rate, wouldn't adding this be somewhat pointless? Since most people use the mouse to interact with the skill bar, I don't think this would see much use. If it is added, I would suggest not having a default binding like you proposed for the increase/decrease RR hotkeys.

Online Proxima

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2017, 10:22:18 PM »
Cart before horse. I don't use a hotkey to control release rate because the ability to jump to the maximum is lacking. Adding it would be a very nice timesaver. I don't mind whether it's a separate key, or just something that happens when you press the "increase RR" key twice (although you'd have to be careful that it doesn't get annoying if you're trying to set a precise RR and keep jumping to the maximum instead).

I would like the ability to assign keys to next/previous skill to remain, even if nothing is assigned by default. I am never going to learn individual keys for NL's 17 skills on top of learning a Lix layout. I appreciate this isn't an essential thing to have, as usually the skill you want will be a few buttons along, so a next/previous hotkey ends up being not much faster than using the mouse. Still, it's nice to have the option.

Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2017, 05:57:21 AM »
Quote
Remove option "Lemming Count Blink"
Currently only Gronkling is using this option, who I would like to encourage sharing their thoughts on this option. Personally I feel that this is a relic from the times, where only the "total-save-requirement" got displayed and not the "still-to-save" and "currently-living-lems". So depending on Gronklings opinions, we might decide that this option is obsolete now.
I believe Flopsy uses this option too? I swear I remember seeing it in his videos.

Quote
Select Unused Lem: Only namida uses this hotkey and even him only very rarely. It might be useful for talismans demanding no more than one skill per lemming, but as far as I know only 5 such talismans exist at all (and all of them in LPI-IV). So I suggest culling this hotkey.
I think this needs to stay unless these talismans are also culled (which could be a seperate discussion). These talismans can become a huge hassle to try and achieve without such an option, which is why it was introduced in the first place. On the other hand, it may be worth removing this from the default layout.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:03:56 AM by namida »
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Offline Simon

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2017, 07:42:13 AM »
Quote
Select Unused Lem:
I think this needs to stay unless these talismans are also culled
may be worth removing this from the default layout.

Mere brainstorming: Since the talisman requires select-unused-lem throughout the level, offer to attack the level in a separate mode where select-unused-lem is always on. You select this mode from the level browser and free the hotkey.

Maybe analyze the talisman-heavy packs for how common this talisman is?

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Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2017, 11:43:41 AM »
Thanks nin10doadict, Apjjm and exit for the further infos. Taking this into account we have:
Hotkeys to cull: Select Unused Lem(?), Cheat, Next/Prev Skill
Hotkeys to remove default keys: Show Athlete Info, Nuke, Inc/Dec RR, perhaps some of the skill selects for less used skills(?)

I would like the ability to assign keys to next/previous skill to remain, even if nothing is assigned by default. I am never going to learn individual keys for NL's 17 skills on top of learning a Lix layout. I appreciate this isn't an essential thing to have, as usually the skill you want will be a few buttons along, so a next/previous hotkey ends up being not much faster than using the mouse. Still, it's nice to have the option.
The whole point of this poll was to avoid arguments like "this hotkey sounds nice", but see whether the hotkeys are actually useful in game-play. We had this hotkey for over two years now (probably since around V1.16, when namida introduced the new skills), so chances are that you won't use this hotkey if you haven't used it yet.
Moreover you don't have to remember all of the 17 skill hotkeys (I don't either). Knowing and using the 8-10 most important ones already helps a lot.
On a side note, I dare say I smell a carrot here... ;P

I believe Flopsy uses this option ["Lemming Count Blink"] too? I swear I remember seeing it in his videos.
From chat:
Quote
<Flopsy> I did use it at some point but I think since I've been on my new laptop, I didn't bother turning it back on

I think this [Select Unused Lem] needs to stay unless these talismans are also culled (which could be a seperate discussion). These talismans can become a huge hassle to try and achieve without such an option, which is why it was introduced in the first place.
I just solved the talismans for LPI (Danger 30), LPIII (Timid 5), LPIV (Smooth 3) and LPO (Breezy 8, Breezy 28) all without using this hotkey. I did not try to remember every lemming that already had a skill, but assigned skills to lemmings which probably haven't had any other skill before. In particular I always assigned the skill to a random lemming when facing a crowd. The only talisman which I didn't get on my first try was Breezy, because I used an overly complicated solution which needed roughly 10 skills more than necessary. After simplifying my solution, I got also this talisman on my first try.

Mere brainstorming: Since the talisman requires select-unused-lem throughout the level, offer to attack the level in a separate mode where select-unused-lem is always on. You select this mode from the level browser and free the hotkey.
Then we reintroduce gimmicks. I would rather keep the hotkey than do this, because hotkeys are the less intrusive solution.

Maybe analyze the talisman-heavy packs for how common this talisman is?
In LPI-V, LPO, LPOII there are in total 109 talismans of which only 5 use the "only one skill per lemming" restriction. NepsterLems has 12 talismans, none of which uses this restriction. IchoTolot's Lemming Reunion and Wafflem's LemmingsBytes don't have talismans at all.
I haven't checked any other packs.

EDIT: namida notified me that I misread one of the talisman descriptions and corrected the version number for inclusion of the new skills.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:19:16 PM by Nepster »

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2017, 12:08:41 PM »
We had this hotkey for over two years now (probably since around V1.28, when namida introduced the new skills), so chances are that you won't use this hotkey if you haven't used it yet.

That's entirely specious, since I only really started playing and solving levels in NL a few days ago, not nearly enough time to get used to it and know what I prefer. I used these keys all the time back when I played Mac L1 as a kid (which I know doesn't count for much, as the style of gameplay is so different now).

I know the better argument is that the feature isn't pulling its weight if only one person is using it. Still, I'm not sure what harm it does to anyone to keep it as an option hotkeys can be assigned to?

Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2017, 12:16:16 PM »
Sorry, I thought you used NeoLemmix for a longer time. Then I would suggest that we keep these hotkeys for the next few weeks to give you time to see whether you like them or not. Please share your experiences afterwards and then we can make a final decision whether to keep the prev/next skill hotkeys or not.

Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 01:07:28 PM »
To reiterate about the backwards framestepping. [can this be given a shorter name?]

The reason namida instituted this option was because at least me and Flopsy complained that when you backup (at least for my own case) I usually back up a couple frames to fix a mistake, therefore I DO NOT want the game replaying, in this case I'm always having to cancel the replay. If I want to go back further or restart I will use replay or save state or some other feature. If I want to replay, I have the replay button. So I'm very happy the option was made, because apparently people want to replay on Backwards framesteps, which is fine. But the way the option currently works doesn't seem to work that way;

-leaving this unchecked [Which upon reading it a user would assume means Replay WILL happen on a backwards frame skip] no replay happens on backwards frame skip.
-Checking doesn't effect backwards frame skip at all; but rather makes no replay happen on restarting. ??? ???

Here's how I would word and work it;

check for replay on backwards frame skip. (no check means replay does not start on a backwards frameskip.

I entirely agree with Nepster on removing things that clutter the program. I think there are already too many but in cases like this where if there are people really getting use out of one item and people getting use out of the opposite there should be an option.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 01:38:29 PM »
check for replay on backwards frame skip. (no check means replay does not start on a backwards frameskip.
The suggestion to rename the option to swap the meaning of checked vs. unchecked is already in my list above, cf. "Reformulate option settings to avoid double negations".

-leaving this unchecked [Which upon reading it a user would assume means Replay WILL happen on a backwards frame skip] no replay happens on backwards frame skip.
-Checking doesn't effect backwards frame skip at all; but rather makes no replay happen on restarting. ??? ???
Sorry, but I cannot really reproduce the (wrong) behavior. The behavior I see is the following:
a) Backwards frameskip 5 seconds when option unchecked: The replay starts if (and only if) there has been some skill assignment during the last 5 seconds.
b) Backwards frameskip 5 seconds when option checked: The replay never starts, regardless whether some skill assignment has been done during the last 5 seconds or not.
c) Restart level when option unchecked: The replay starts if (and only if) there has been some skill assignment during the current try.
d) Restart level when option checked: The replay never starts, regardless whether there have been some skill assignments during the current try or not.
(and similar for other time periods instead of 5 seconds)

I gather that a), b) and c) are how you like the option to behave, even though for some reason you cannot observe a) in action. But this shouldn't be too much of a problem as you prefer the behavior b) anyway?
I take you don't like the behavior d). Is that correct?
Just to confirm: Assume you assigned a skill during the first 3 seconds, and at second 4 you press the "5 seconds backwards frameskip", which takes you back to the very beginning of the level. Although this is essentially the same effect as restarting the level, you still don't want to replay the skill assignment? Correct?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 04:47:32 PM by Nepster »

Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2017, 01:48:40 PM »
Quote
Just to confirm: Assume you assigned a skill during the first 3 seconds, and at second 4 you press the "5 seconds backwards frameskip", which takes you back to the very beginning of the level. Although this is essentially the same effect as restarting the level, you still don't want to replay the skill assignment? Correct?

There is already some distinction between these, if the "Pause on backwards frameskip" option is on. Both would take the player to frame 0, but the restart key would leave the game unpaused, while the backwards skip key would leave the game paused. There is no difference when the "Pause on backwards frameskip" option is off.

EDIT: No, on second thought, there is still a difference. The backwards skip key would leave the game state (paused, normal or fast forward) as-is, while the restart key would leave the game at normal speed, unpaused.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 02:47:27 AM »
Cancel Replay: Honestly, this surprised me! Given that the corresponding option is not used at all, there are still users who prefer to cancel replays via a hotkey instead of clicking on the screen. bulletride, Gronkling and Dullstar, please correct me if I misunderstood something.

I think the reason I didn't use the setting for the corresponding option had something to do with it interfering with something else I also did, but I can't remember what. I'll test it shortly and edit this post with the results. Also, since I don't ever have a reason to click on the screen during a replay, the option to disable the effect seemed unnecessary. Basically, I greatly prefer cancelling with the hotkey, but never had a specific reason to disable clicking to disable.

Back when the option existed, I did disable selecting skills cancelling the replay; I think that's when I developed the habit of using the cancel replay key. That said, to me, it feels a lot more natural than clicking on an empty portion of the screen. Usually I only click on something if I want to interact with it.

Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2017, 10:09:52 AM »
I'll look through this thread more thoroughly at some point to decide on other changes to be made. However, in the meantime, I've removed the debug options for the next update, as they do actually complicate the code quite a bit so it'll be good to get rid of them (whereas most others don't have such a significant impact, so it isn't such a huge deal if they're still there for now).

Regarding the Cheat key in particular - I remember that I removed it once in the past, only for it to be requested that I re-add it (which I did). Are we sure it should be removed then?
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Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2017, 03:28:39 PM »
Regarding the Cheat key in particular - I remember that I removed it once in the past, only for it to be requested that I re-add it (which I did). Are we sure it should be removed then?
Yes, we are. It was me who requested the readdition, and I still use it. But given that I am the only one who does, this hotkey doesn't nearly get enough usage overall to be kept.

Regarding the option "Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskip", I forgot to post the results of a discussion with möbius in chat:
This option should be kept, but changed a little bit: Only on backwards frameskips, the replay should be cancelled. But on restarting the level, the replay should play normally. Some posts a few months ago, that state that möbius prefers cancelling replays even on restarting a level, are outdated and should be ignored.

Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 11:28:44 AM »
^ What you describe here for that option is already the intended behaviour. So if that's not what's happening, it's a bug, and I will try to remember to look into it before V10.13.16's release.
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Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2017, 05:25:19 PM »
at some point in here the athlete info displayed in the menu bar was discussed.

It seems as there is still room in the menu bar; I suggest replacing this info to go next to the lemming status indicator (on the far left). That removes the need for this hotkey and then the lemming status indicator never has to be covered up. I'd also prefer this way because currently when an athlete or permanent skill lemming is highlighted it says "athlete" or etc instead of "faller/walker" etc which can be a hassle in certain situations.
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Offline namida

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2017, 09:29:54 AM »
There is only enough room to display both at once in all reasonable cases, if we were to replace the text descriptions with graphical icons. I'm not entirely opposed to this idea, though.
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Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 10:37:31 PM »
Minimap obsolete:
Previously there was talk about culling the minimap. I can’t find that thread, so sorry if I say something that’s totally not correct. I was opposed to it at the time (as I used the minimap extensively). But now with the advent of the ZOOM feature (which is very nice!) the minimap has become sort of obsolete. I would be perfectly okay with culling the minimap now, as it no longer serves its major function and has several problems:

-Since it’s gotten several “updates” IMO it’s gotten worse; it no longer displays the old full standard length of a level.
-I don’t like the “high-def" minimap at all. I don’t think it’s necessary or helps anything and it sounds like it causes lag for some people.
-I can’t display levels that are taller than the old standard.
-It can’t display the entire level; that was the whole point of it in the first place. As already stated; zoom takes care of this so it’s not needed for that anymore.
-It takes up space in the menu bar that could be used for other things.
-From all the discussion I remember I was one of the very few people who used or cared about the minimap at all. Several people (Raymanni in IRC once I think?) stating they never even look at it.

at some point in here the athlete info displayed in the menu bar was discussed.

It seems as there is still room in the menu bar; I suggest replacing this info to go next to the lemming status indicator (on the far left). That removes the need for this hotkey and then the lemming status indicator never has to be covered up. I'd also prefer this way because currently when an athlete or permanent skill lemming is highlighted it says "athlete" or etc instead of "faller/walker" etc which can be a hassle in certain situations.
There is only enough room to display both at once in all reasonable cases, if we were to replace the text descriptions with graphical icons. I'm not entirely opposed to this idea, though.

^is this idea still being considered? I like icons opposed to words and they take up less room.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 03:58:23 PM »
I am open for the suggestion to remove the minimap, but won't do that without a proper discussion.

-I don’t like the “high-def" minimap at all. I don’t think it’s necessary or helps anything and it sounds like it causes lag for some people.
Then disable it in the options menu. There is an option "High-quality minimap".

at some point in here the athlete info displayed in the menu bar was discussed.

It seems as there is still room in the menu bar; I suggest replacing this info to go next to the lemming status indicator (on the far left). That removes the need for this hotkey and then the lemming status indicator never has to be covered up. I'd also prefer this way because currently when an athlete or permanent skill lemming is highlighted it says "athlete" or etc instead of "faller/walker" etc which can be a hassle in certain situations.
There is only enough room to display both at once in all reasonable cases, if we were to replace the text descriptions with graphical icons. I'm not entirely opposed to this idea, though.

^is this idea still being considered? I like icons opposed to words and they take up less room.
In this form? No. Instead I prefer small icons hovering over the head of the lemming, as that's far closer to the view focus of the player. Currently such icons are only displayed in clear-physics mode when hovering over a lemming and always for zombies when hovering over them.
I am not opposed to display the icons more often, but wanted to test the current set-up first, as it will interfere less with the usual game-play.

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
I think the minimap is certainly worth discussing. If removed, it would open up space to display other things that might be more helpful. While I think the minimap is cute, it's true that I hardly ever look at it. That said, for really big levels, I do find it useful to click on the minimap to quickly jump to other parts of the level without having to zoom out. If I am looking at the bottom left and want to look at the top right, the minimap can get me there with a few quick clicks. If I zoom out fully then zoom back in, I'm left looking at the center of the level. I'll have to scroll manually over to the top right from there, which is slower.

Offline Simon

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2017, 05:52:58 PM »
If I zoom out fully then zoom back in, I'm left looking at the center of the level. I'll have to scroll manually over to the top right from there, which is slower.

The answer to this is to zoom into the mouse cursor instead of zooming into the center of the screen. (I.e., before and after the zoom, the mouse cursor points to the same point on the land.)

Quote
If I am looking at the bottom left and want to look at the top right

With hold-to-scroll on right mouse button, click and shove the mouse towards the top-right. This is the absolute fastest.

In general, scrolling features have issues whenever they're slower than minimap-scrolling. Minimap-scrolling has moderate speed, but it cannot be fast because it requires a precise click far away from the action, violating Fitts's Law, and then the mouse must move back into the game area.

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« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 05:59:07 PM by Simon »

Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 05:56:01 PM »
If I zoom out fully then zoom back in, I'm left looking at the center of the level. I'll have to scroll manually over to the top right from there, which is slower.

The answer to this is to zoom into the mouse cursor instead of zooming into the center of the screen. (I.e., before and after the zoom, the mouse cursor points to the same point on the land.)

^Yes; this is what needs to happen.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2017, 06:19:14 PM »
I still want the minimap, as I use it regularly to keep tack on other portions of the map, but I agree that it could be made more conveniant for vertical levels.

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2017, 07:05:17 PM »
I like the suggestion of having zoom go to the mouse cursor rather than the center of the screen. I would prefer to see the minimap remain, however. I don't like the idea of having to zoom out in order to scroll large distances, especially considering the only other reason I would ever zoom out on a level are to get a higher resolution overview of the level than what the minimap provides.

As for scrolling:
With minimap:
 Click where you want the screen.
With zooming:
 Zoom out.
 Click where you want the screen once you've zoomed out far enough.
 Zoom back in.

Zooming in place of the minimap changes a 1 step process to a 3 step process.

Furthermore, losing the minimap impedes the ability to have a basic idea what is happening to offscreen lemmings. I don't zoom out while I'm actively playing the level (rather than just looking at the level, maybe thinking about how to solve it) because then things start getting annoyingly small to look at. The minimap is quite helpful for having an idea of what the lemmings I'm NOT currently focused on are doing. Are they contained? Are there some approaching a cliff that will need attention soon? Is there a trap offscreen killing lemmings? Is an offscreen digger/miner/basher about to finish? I don't like zooming out on whatever I'm trying to focus on - things get too small to comfortably look at.

I do concede that the minimap has issues with some sizes of levels that I'm not entirely sure how to fix. Certainly, as much of the level as possible should be displayed on it.



A quick clarification of my specific usage case:

The minimap is used for:
1) Scrolling - I prefer using the minimap to scroll if one is available rather than zooming out/zooming back in.
2) Situational Awareness - I like to be on the current default zoom while focusing on specific lemmings. I use the minimap to have an idea of what offscreen lemmings are currently doing in order to determine if my attention is needed elsewhere. This behavior is further reinforced by another game I play, Starcraft, where the minimap is extremely important for determining where your attention is needed.

For these purposes, I like to have the minimap in low-res mode. Part of this is because I'm used to it since it's been like that for a long time. The other part of it is because its generally brighter colors are more easily read - for what I use the minimap for, I need to be able to clearly see where the terrain is and where the lemmings are. If high res minimap used the same colors as the low res one (i.e. one color for terrain and one color for lemmings) I'd be more likely to use it. As it stands now the high res minimap is blurry and somewhat difficult to read.

I use zooming out for overviews and route planning, when I'm trying to take in the whole level and decide what to do. I don't usually use zoom in (further than default, anyway) in sprite based games except for getting a closer look at the artwork.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:23:22 PM by Dullstar »

Offline Nepster

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2017, 04:25:35 PM »
The answer to this is to zoom into the mouse cursor instead of zooming into the center of the screen. (I.e., before and after the zoom, the mouse cursor points to the same point on the land.)
I have added this to my to-do list.

Offline mobius

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Re: What NeoLemmix options do you use? Let's cull the other ones!
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2017, 01:16:18 AM »
well I just realized I was wrong about something anyways: you cannot always zoom out and see the whole level!!! On very large levels (perhaps this depends on length verses height?) you can't "zoom out all the way" so-to speak. So in some cases there is no way to see the entire level, not with zoom or mini-map. This seems very silly to me. As in the original L1 you could always see the whole level in the mini-map. In the end; it's maybe not a major deal and I'm not sure I'm even asking for this... Just something to think about, idk, maybe down the road, and issue to address...
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