Level Idea

[Timballisto]

I got an idea for a level or level pack.  What if there was a level that multiple people worked on?  One person would start it, and then when they were done pass it to the next person via email or upload.  It would keep going like that.  Before the level was even started though, it would have to be decided who would work on the level and the order of people who would work on it.

There'd be some rules:

Limited number of new terrain piece per person
Limited number of new objects
No altering any existing things
Limited number of skills allowed to be added

Does anyone have an idea of how we could work out statistics and level names?

[Conway]

This sound interesting. Perhaps each contributor could have a quota of 5 skills to add, and somebody would have to decide on the number of lemmings, someone would decide how many could die, and someone would decide upon a release rate. The title isn't really important, I don't think. How about just 'Collaborative Level'?

[Timballisto]

Collaborative level sounds good I suppose.  Everything else seems fine.

I think the rest of the rules should be:

10 terrain pieces
4 objects (unless you're starting - you can put in 1 exit and 1 entrance extra)

If we agree shall we start one?

I'm willing to start a level or work on another one someone else starts.

[Timballisto]

Okay. &#A0;So is this good?-


order

1.me
-lemmings given
-terrain set
2.Conway
-lemmings needed
-RR
3.Isu
-time

[Isu]

Cool Idea Timb'. I'm in! B)

I'm cool just as long as i don't have to start it.

[chaos_defrost]

I'm in, if it isn't too late...

[Shvegait]

Sounds fun  

I have to wonder if the final product will be anything worth playing though

[Conway]

Okay.  So is this good?-


order

1.me
-lemmings given
-terrain set
2.Conway
-lemmings needed
-RR
3.Isu
-time

 But we'll all be working on the terrain, won't we?

[guest]

I think I'm interested as well.

Just one thing:  I think it should be the last person in the chain who decides the time limit.  Because it might be hard to design a level with a pre-given time limit.

By the way, is this for LemEdit or Cheapo?

There's also a similar issue with exits.  I think it might be best if we allow everyone the option to move the exits around, so that it can be easier to accomodate your additions to the level.

I don't know how well this will work, but that's why we should try and find out, right?  

[Timballisto]

...wow.  I got a lot of feedback on this thing and I got it fast.

Um, so in regards to all mentioned issues-


terrain-

Of course we will all work on terrain.  Otherwise it would be pointless to do this.  I just mean that to make things less complicated person 1 will choose the terrain set that will be used to create the level.  For example, someone starts off the level and decides that the level will use the bubble set.  That is the set used.

Exits-

There are ways to work around this problem.  You could make the exit inaccesable somehow and then make a new exit.  You could make another separate trap door to exit area (kind of like one side goes to one exit and the other to one on the opposite side).  If this still bothers you, then personally I think we should get done with one level and then see how much of a problem this issue turns out to be.   Otherwise a huge argument could start over this and we'd never make a level!!!

lemedit/cheapo-

Good question.  Technically I guess it could be for either.  It would be alright with me but I wouldn't really want to start out with the level.  This may cause problems for some people, but that's okay.  This is okay because the people who prefer lemedit can just work on levels together and those who prefer cheapo could group up as well.  That way everyone gets what they want.

Time-

I have already thought of that and if you haven't already noticed I gave the last person in line the time job.

How well this will work-

That really depends on the people making the level and how well they build into each others' ideas.  My original idea was to see what would happen if a small simpler level idea was taken and then expanded upon by other people.  The end result could be of any quality, which to me seems to make it worth a couple tries even if we do mess up.

Deadline for joining groups-

is suppose the max amount of people working on a level would be six, considering the fact that I have six volunteers to pioneer this new thought including myself.  So, Insane Steve, you're in.  Shvegait it sounds like you're in but I'm not sure.  You can drop from the group later if you're not in  but for now I'll just stick you in.

Oh, and, guest, The person before you in the list will eventually need your real email address to send you the level.  Of course if you don't want to give it to whoever that is then I suppose we could always upload the level versions.

Mkay.  Here's the list as of yet-

1.me
-terrain set
-lemmings given
2.conway
-RR
3.Isu
-Lemmings needed
4.Insane Steve
5.Shvegait
6.Guest
-time

[Conway]

For the issue of the door/exit: What if one person decided where they will go when all the layout is built, and he is the only person not to have a hand at the terrain? That way, no one could be deciding exactly how the level will played and what route will/can be used.

[guest]

For the issue of the door/exit: What if one person decided where they will go when all the layout is built, and he is the only person not to have a hand at the terrain? That way, no one could be deciding exactly how the level will played and what route will/can be used.

Perhaps.  But who would volunteer for such a boring job, if he's not allowed to contribute terrain?

One possible way to minimize issues with having an exit that other people can't modify, would be the following:  if you decide to put an exit, unless you're the last person in the chain, make an effort to leave some open space around the exit where the next person can do something with.  That way, the exit would not place too much of a constraint on the people following you.

It's also true that the next person can always make things interesting by introducing a new entrance somewhere, so perhaps the exit issue isn't quite as bad as I originally thought.

[guest]

lemedit/cheapo-

Good question. &#A0;Technically I guess it could be for either. &#A0;It would be alright with me but I wouldn't really want to start out with the level. &#A0;This may cause problems for some people, but that's okay. &#A0;This is okay because the people who prefer lemedit can just work on levels together and those who prefer cheapo could group up as well. &#A0;That way everyone gets what they want.

The main reason I brought this up is because LemEdit place certain limitations on you.  In particular, a LemEdit level can only support up to 16 active objects (the remaining 16 will just become decoration with no actual effects on the Lemmings), up to 4 entrances, and 32 steel areas.  So if this is based on LemEdit it would be good for the participants to keep in mind these limitations as they develop their part of the level.

Other than that, I really don't care which one we use.

Oh, and, guest, The person before you in the list will eventually need your real email address to send you the level. &#A0;Of course if you don't want to give it to whoever that is then I suppose we could always upload the level versions.

Although I do usually put in fake e-mail addresses in my posts, occasionally I do put in a real one: guestlevels@yahoo.com.  

[guest]

following: &#A0;if you decide to put an exit, unless you're the last person in the chain, make an effort to leave some open space around the exit where the next person can do something with.

Let me clarify "open space".  I don't mean you have to leave a gigantic ring of nothingness around the exit.  Instead I just mean a relatively uninteresting area near/around the exit you throw in, such as a long, boring walk to the exit or something.  It could even be interesting visually; the point is to leave the area near an exit you introduce be "open for development", be it for others to enhance gameplay or enhance the look (or both).

[Proxima]

Mkay. &#A0;Here's the list as of yet-

1.me
-terrain set
-lemmings given
2.conway
-RR
3.Isu
-Lemmings needed
4.Insane Steve
5.Shvegait
6.Guest
-time

If you have six people, why not do it like this: (1) style (2) number of lems (3) RR (4) number to save (5) time (6) level title (and intro screen text, if Cheapo)? That way, you gain the option of having a title chosen at the end that reflects the level in some way; as well as letting everyone have some share in the level statistics....

[tumble_weed]

gah am i too late?

Well I'd like to join
maybe Timb can be the "team leader" and he starts then everyone has a turn at adding/subtracting/changing things in the level...then after everyone it is passed back to Timballisto and he can finish off the level and have the final say on what the level is like

Or possibly we can do multiple collaboration levels...with maybe 2 or 3 people in each, 1 person could start by deciding the specifications of the level such as time, RR, Amount o lemmings, Skills etc and then someone could do the terrain...or something allong those lines  

[Timballisto]

Well, we already have six people for level 1, but it's easy enough to have you be the person who starts off group two.

Guest I like your idea about the exit and I like the idea for the statistics distribution.  The stats will be as you said.  Well, if everyone is okay with the current rules, I will start making a level.  If you're not okay with them, then keep this in mind:  I am trying to just get one of these done.  We can always do another one by a different set of rules later.

[Isu]

Aack! I've not been online due to Work, and it seems that everything is decided without me X_X.

Anyway, coming to this Cheapo/Lemedit decision, it would be much preferred if I could participate in a Cheapo level. I would have a lot more hassle creating a level in Lemedit than in Cheapo.

[Shvegait]

I think that LemEdit would be more conducive to this sort of thing in some ways because of how terrain pieces are managed, while in Cheapo the level is basically a bitmap.

What are the rules on Erasers/Black pieces?

[geoo]

I'd like to take part too, if this isn't a problem.
I prefer LemEdit, maybe if one of the first group prefers Cheapo,
someone else (meaning me in that case ) could do his job. (If the first group is a LemEdit group)
If I can't, no problem either.

Little question:
Do you think the idea of the part edited by a person should be given to the next one not to destroy it?

[guest]

What are the rules on Erasers/Black pieces?

Do you think the idea of the part edited by a person should be given to the next one not to destroy it?

I believe that was Tim's intent, that you are only to add stuff, not remove or change existing stuff from other people.

So my interpretation would be that you can't use eraser or black pieces to remove pixels already laid out by existing people.  You can still add new terrain pieces over what was already there, but you should make a sound judgment whether your addition would be considered a bad interference on the existing stuff.

I also suggest that each time someone adds their stuff to the level, don't just e-mail the next person, e-mail everyone involved in the chain.  That way everyone is always kept in the loop regarding how the level is evolving and can therefore provide feedback or make preparations as necessary.

[tumble_weed]

oh well if we are having 2 groups we can have cheapo and lemedit....

I would go lemedit

...anyway maybe what we could do is start of with a solution such as "a level that involves using one level to free a second group of lemmings in another area of the level" so then people have a vague idea of what they are making...instead of everybody changing around the level each time

That way maybe the first person could start off with the basic...entrance, exit, some skills and some basic terrain and then the rest of the people could go from there and make the level better.

[Mindless]

I also suggest that each time someone adds their stuff to the level, don't just e-mail the next person, e-mail everyone involved in the chain.  That way everyone is always kept in the loop regarding how the level is evolving and can therefore provide feedback or make preparations as necessary.

It would be even better to ftp it up somewhere.

Also, the the level's filename should include the revision number. (ex. xxxxxx00.lvl ... xxxxxx99.lvl)

[Mindless]

Here's an upload/download portal I've made.  Tell me if it doesn't work.
http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/

[tumble_weed]

Nice.

it works...I uploaded:

hghf
TWPAK00.dat

You can delete these...I was testing

[Timballisto]

Wow.  Nice.  That should make things much easier!

Well.  Ug.  Lots of input here.  The cheapo groups can decide their own rules as I am not quite familiar enough with cheapo to decide anything for anyone.

TW, I like your solution idea.  However, I want to see how a level would go and I will do what I said earlier, only I'll put you in place of Isu since he doesn't want to do lemedit.

geoo89...uh...you can be in the second lemedit group.

1.me
-terrain set
2.Conway
-lemmings given
3.Tumble weed
-RR
4.Isane Steve
-lemmings needed
5.Shvegait
-title
6.Guest
-time

Again, we can try all of the rules that are stated here in the second level and I am more than willing to do that.

If we follow the rules...

-We should and up with 60 or less terrain pieces.
-We should end up with 26 or less objects (this one will be easy enough)
-We should end up with 18 or less steel areas (also fairly easy)

Okay.  I'm done with my 3rd level pack so I'll start us off.

[Conway]

So, is 60 terrain pieces the amount the level can contain altogether, or is that each member's quota?

[Timballisto]

That's each member's quota put together.

[Mindless]

Apparently my script doesn't like spaces in filenames... I'll try to fix it, but for right now replace spaces w/ underscores.

Fixed. Tell me if there are any problems.

[Timballisto]

Okay! &#A0;Level 1-1 is done. &#A0;Now it's Conway's turn. &#A0;

JA JA JA Get the level...HERE

If anyone wants the current solution then get this

Solution file type thing...yea

[JM]

Ive got the level.Looks like it will be a good level.Next time someone wants to make a group level email me at thetransplants2@hotmail.com thanks

[Conway]

What's the skills quota?

[Timballisto]

It's 5 per person.

[Mindless]

Okay!  Level 1-1 is done.  Now it's Conway's turn.  

JA JA JA Get the level...HERE

If anyone wants the current solution then get this

Solution file type thing...yea

Your files need file extensions... and all LemEdit level files should be in 8.3 format (filename.ext) since it is a DOS application.

[Timballisto]

Can't you rename the file and give it its extension? &#A0;The Mac seems to have eaten them. &#A0;Or &#A0;I suppose I could rename them...

Is it still possible for you to download the level and or view the solution?

[Isu]

I tried that, and it doesn't work in WinLemm, maybe I should play it in DOS...

[Timballisto]

Conway does it work for you?

[Mindless]

Can't you rename the file and give it its extension?  The Mac seems to have eaten them.  Or  I suppose I could rename them...

Is it still possible for you to download the level and or view the solution?

Yes, I can still use it.

[tumble_weed]

if you change the name you can still use it in custlemm

and I'm glad you chose a nice terrain set....I was scared you would have picked Ugly 0 for a while

and Maybe we can all have 2 goes each but on our second turn just fix things up and try to make the level better

[Timballisto]

You don't like the dirt set?  Is it really that terrible?  I think it looks pretty good.   It all depends on how you use the set.

[tumble_weed]

well I don't HATE it...but it's probably my least favourite

I agree with the how you use it comment...but that goes with all sets really...

My order would probably be something like this:

Hell
Crystal
Rocky
Columns
Bubbles
Bricks
Tiles
Snow
Dirt

[Timballisto]

Mine would probably be...uh...

Oh I like them all each for what they've got to offer.  The only exception I think might be the snow set.  It's not one I like.  I don't know why.  It's just a bit too plain I guess.  Maybe I haven't looked at it hard enough yet...

[Conway]

Personally, I don't think much of the blue set chosen for this level. I'll see what I can do . . .

[chaos_defrost]

Ah, good. A set with straight pieces. That'll do nicely.

[Shvegait]

The crystal set has a lot of small pieces. Are we going to be able to make a full level with so few terrain pieces each? I agree with tumble_weed that maybe we ought to each have a second pass after the first... We'll see though.

[Timballisto]

Well...There are a couple rather large pieces.  I found enough.  We're going to have 60 pieces in the end anyway.

I think that we should decide whether to do the second pass thing after we get done with the first loop.  If it's bad, we can do a second pass.  If not, well then no second pass.

[Conway]

Okay, here it is: >Download!<

 Your move, Tumble!

[tumble_weed]

YAY!

[Timballisto]

Hey.  Looking pretty good so far.  I think we could go somewhere with this one.

[JM]

Looks like it's going to be a nicely made level when it is finished.

[Conway]

What's the word, Tumble Weed?  B)

[tumble_weed]

Lazy

i'm still alive, I haven't forgotten

[tumble_weed]

Ok now I'm done

Mr. Steve it's your turn...the file is uploaded at Mindless' portal - http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/

[Conway]

Looks good! I've found it's actually possible to save all but one if you build to the crosses first, then do the stuff with the other climbers, then build to the crystal before releasing the crowd. That way the final builder turns back and survives.  

[chaos_defrost]

I can't load the level. Can you save it in a levelpak .dat file for me?

And I may be out of commision for a couple days. I'm getting my wisdom teeth extracted (not just pulled) tomorrow, and I may not be in the mood for level editing. Hopefully I'll have it up by Sunday.

[Conway]

It's in the individual 2Kb level format. You can load it directly in Lemedit, then save it in a levelpack.

[Timballisto]

It seems to me that, atleast with this particular level, there will be no need for a second loop.  So far, anyhow.  I suppose that could change.

[chaos_defrost]

My computer doesn't want to recognize it as a ".LVL" file. It just calls it a generic "file" and I can't do anything with it.

[Timballisto]

This is neat!  I'm glad I did this.  It's turned out interesting results.

Hope the wisdom teeth thing isn't too bad.

[guest]

My computer doesn't want to recognize it as a ".LVL" file. It just calls it a generic "file" and I can't do anything with it.

Can't you just rename it afterwards and tag on the ".lvl"?  Or are you saying the computer won't even let you download?

Oh, and sorry to hear about your wisdom teeth.  Best of wishes on a speedy, not-too-painful recovery.  [How many teeths are to be extracted (ie. not pulled)?]

[chaos_defrost]

It downloads fine, I just can't get it to load, .lvl after it or not. I renamed it "grouplevel" and LemEdit won't recognize "grouplevel" or "grouplevel.lvl". Odd.

[Conway]

Yeah Steve, good luck with the teeth!

 The file doesn't need the lvl extension to open it in LemEdit. You can rename it to anything, type the filename into LemEdit and it will load.

 edit: Try renaming it to something shorter, like a single character.

[Timballisto]

That's exactly what I did.  Maybe it has to do with the whole eight characters thing?

[chaos_defrost]

The one letter thing worked. Thanks.

[Conway]

Yeah DOS is strange with how it handles filenames.

[guest]

It seems to me that, atleast with this particular level, there will be no need for a second loop. &#A0;So far, anyhow. &#A0;I suppose that could change.

Ha ha, I guess depends on how Steve's wisdom teeth operation comes out.....  

(Though I have full confidence that he'll have no trouble churning out something good even when under great pain.)

[guest]

That's exactly what I did. &#A0;Maybe it has to do with the whole eight characters thing?

Yeah, remember LemEdit is a DOS program so it can only handle 8 character filenames, in spite of Win95+.

[Timballisto]

(Though I have full confidence that he'll have no trouble churning out something good even when under great pain.)

I thought the same thing.  Yes, whatever he comes up with, I'm pretty sure it'll be something good!

[tumble_weed]

yeah sorry...I wanted to name it something shorter...but I thought I'll go with the naming convention that everyone else was using...it just needs to be renamed to something with 8 characters

Oh and sorry Conway I hope you dont mind me blacking out some of your terrain, I just thought the level could do with a little neatening

[Conway]

What terrain? I didn't notice anything blacked out.

[tumble_weed]

well I did and i added terrain over yours.

[Timballisto]

I didn't notice any terrain gone either...then again I only looked for the invisible pieces for about 30 seconds so chances are that I missed something.

[JM]

I downloaded the level and it seems to be looking good.

[Conway]

TW, what I'm more concerned about is that the only change you've made to the solution is covering the water by the door. The only other changes seem to be small and aesthetic. That's cool as well, I guess . . .

[chaos_defrost]

The tooth extraction went very well, although I've been bleeding from the mouth for about the last 7 hours. Doesn't hurt as much as I've been told it would.

So, the rules are: No more than 10 terrain pieces, no more than 4 new interactive things, and no more than 3 new steel areas, correct? Also, after making my addition, I should figure out how many lemmings are required to pass the level.

I'll try to figure out some clever addition I can make that doesn't completely mess up the solution to the level. Not sure when it'll be complete, but... it appears my surgery today had no complications and I'll be fine.

[tumble_weed]

TW, what I'm more concerned about is that the only change you've made to the solution is covering the water by the door. The only other changes seem to be small and aesthetic. That's cool as well, I guess . . .

yeah pretty much

I couldn't do much else to the solution it was all already pretty much intricately planned out.

[guest]

I couldn't do much else to the solution it was all already pretty much intricately planned out.

Oh good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who feel that the solution/level is way too completed at this point.  Someone clearly ignored what I said about leaving room for the next person.

Heck, even the exit's placed with no room for expansion.  That's the thing, the level feels too constricted already, seeming to leave little room for anything other than minor aesthetic expansions.  And it leaves you with the dilemma of whether to just plow over the neat solution concept it requires right now so you can actually put something besides decorations to the level, or to spend the extra time figuring out how to augment the level without changing the solution too much.

I suppose though I should reserve judgment until I see what Insane Steve and Shvegait will do to the level.  I suppose the level can always use a second entrance or something.

[Conway]

Oh, sorry about that! I guess I'm just used to closing levels ready for press. I'm not used to leaving a level half-done. If you like, Tumble Weed, I'll start fresh from Timbalisto's base and post a more open level.

[guest]

Nah, don't worry about it, we can always start a second group level later.

[Timballisto]

I'm interested in seeing what a second level would bring.  

I'm sorry about the exit space thing.  I tried to go as far as I could to give a little space, and, I did.  But it apparently wasn't enough.  Next time I'll try harder to stretch it out - I think I was forgetting that aesthetics could be implemented later by everyone else.

[guest]

I tried to go as far as I could to give a little space, and, I did.

Well on second thought, I guess there might be some room for expansion between the one-way wall and the exit.  Though one needs to be careful to preserve the concept of what you're currently supposed to do in that section.

[Conway]

Don't worry about the concept. I was being selfish by making the solution so specific. Fell free to destroy it completely as you see fit, Steve!

[guest]

Don't worry about the concept. I was being selfish by making the solution so specific. Fell free to destroy it completely as you see fit, Steve!

But you see, the concept is so good I like it and would hate to throw it away just like that.   :-/

...Well, unless if the replacement is better I guess, hehe.

Anyway, with 2 more person before my turn, I guess I really have to wait and see.

[chaos_defrost]

I have an idea for how to add something to the level without messing with its current solution too badly, but it'll take some working.

What's the maximum number of skills I can add to the level?

[Timballisto]

You can add five.

Oh, and if you like the solution then you can just keep the level in its current form and use it.  I mean, that is one of the reasons we upload each version right?  (I know the obvious reason but that can be one too).

[JM]

This level will be amazing when it is complete.

[Timballisto]

Hrm.  You think so?  I don't know.  It could really change in the next steps.  I sure hope it's good though.  Right now it's pretty good.

[tumble_weed]

well dont worry its our first try...maybe the first person shouldn't add any terrain to start with...

that way it would take more turns to make a complete level...also maybe the entrace and exit could be placed on either side of the level

[guest]

also maybe the entrace and exit could be placed on either side of the level

That would make the level a bit too big.  Most levels don't utilize (ie. for purposes other than decoration) anywhere near that much space.

What would've been really nice to have, but is missing in CustLemm, is a teleport object.  With a teleport object you have much more freedom in stitching various parts of the level together.  I guess we could try that when (if) we do a Cheapo version of group levels.

[Isu]

I was hoping that the second group level would be cheapo, because using lemedit gives me much more hassle, and I do want to participate to a group level too ya know...

[Conway]

Maybe next time, the door and exit should be placed in the final step.

[Shvegait]

Or maybe the entrance could be placed at the beginning, but the exit not until the last step?

[tumble_weed]

ha, well I've made lots of levels with the entrace and exit on either side of the level.

well anyway I'd be interested in a second lemedit one, I wouldn't do a cheapo one...I really dislike cheapo...it's just not Lemmingy enough

[Isu]

And I really dislike Custlemm, how can I play a game with no music? A game has got to have some form of sound/music, or I lose interest in it very quickly.

[Timballisto]

For both of the above reasons I use the original lemmings

^_^

[Isu]

But the Adlib file doesn't work on my XP Computer...
I have to burn the file to disk (Yes a CD.) and place it on my old Win95 PC, the floppy drive doesn't work on that computer. Or I could use Mindless' "LevelDataDecompressor"

I still play it, just not as often as Cheapo.

[JM]

If someone built a version of Custlemm that plays music that would be brilliant!

[Timballisto]

Why doesn't it play music now I wonder...

[JM]

I always end up playing on Original Lemmings because that plays music.The Windows 95 version of Lemmings seems to play it aswell.The only version that won't play it is Custlemm.I wouldn't be able to examine this version to see why it won't play music.

[Conway]

I don't dislike either game, but for the purpose of level designing, I much prefer LemEdit. I usually use Custlemm (because it handles the levels in the right order) with Media Player on in the background, which plays much better music than Lemmings!

[JM]

I prefer Custlemm out of all versions.

[Shvegait]

I just have all my Lemmings music on Winamp, which I play in the background. Also, CustLemm does have *sound*. It supposedly plays music from a CD if you have a music CD in, although I forget the exact track order. I'm thinking of burning Lemmings music to a CD and putting that in while playing CustLemm... Hmm...

[guest]

Why doesn't it play music now I wonder...

Eh, just one of the many screwed-up things the author of LemEdit/CustLemm (same person?) did.

[chaos_defrost]

Wow. I'm finding I'm having a difficult time making my addition without adding a massive back-route to the level. I'll hopefully have my revision up soon.

[guest]

Wow. I'm finding I'm having a difficult time making my addition without adding a massive back-route to the level.

Oh boy, if you're having trouble already, I shudder at what I would be facing by the time it gets to my turn.  

Anyway, looking forward to it.  B)

[tumble_weed]

hehe at least we'll learn from this one

and yeah I've had music CDs in my computer and it's REALLY annoying...because the songs stop and start when you play new levels...

but usually I just play anything that I have on itunes at the time...

anyway I'm sure it's possible to hack Custlemm to play music...I'll assume the problem is that it tries to read songs off the CD drive.

[guest]

I really dislike cheapo...it's just not Lemmingy enough

Interesting.  What is it about CustLemm that are so sorely missing in Cheapo?

[tumble_weed]

1. Custlemm makes levels for the REAL lemmings game
2. No stupid title screen with a lemming woman thing
3. No annoying post level screen
4. The Cheapo physics are slightly off
5. Don't like the custon graphics...they usually look awful
6. Music is annoying
7. Doesn't feel like you're playing authentic lemmings levels
8. In my opinion its far harder to use the editor
etc...

[Shvegait]

I told you guest, it doesn't have the "classic" feel

Cheapo has a ton to offer though. Direction selection alone is a huge improvement. Replay (when it's not buggy) is very nice. The graphics are only as good as you make them (or as good as they are made). They're not inherently worse... that makes no sense. Same goes for the music.

Sure, Cheapo has some bugs and behaviors that aren't consistent with Lemmings, but I'd argue there are more bizarre bugs in Lemmings than in Cheapo... I agree in some ways that LemEdit is easier to use than Cheapo, but the Cheapo editor is more flexible without a doubt.

and yeah I've had music CDs in my computer and it's REALLY annoying...because the songs stop and start when you play new levels...

Hmm? Isn't this how Lemmings acts normally? Or did you mean that reading the CD then not reading it, etc. constantly gets annoying?

[Timballisto]

Hmm? Isn't this how Lemmings acts normally? Or did you mean that reading the CD then not reading it, etc. constantly gets annoying?

Well that sounds like what usually happens to me with my computer.  When I play AOE the music goes for about 1 second when I start a game, and then it stops, and then it "cracks" and it goes on and off and it gets really annoying.  The music comes from the CD.

Of course it could be a completely different situation but I don't know.  

[guest]

1. Custlemm makes levels for the REAL lemmings game
2. No stupid title screen with a lemming woman thing
3. No annoying post level screen
4. The Cheapo physics are slightly off
5. Don't like the custon graphics...they usually look awful
6. Music is annoying
7. Doesn't feel like you're playing authentic lemmings levels
8. In my opinion its far harder to use the editor
etc...

Well, Peter's not ever going to have a good answer for #1 and #7, since they're basically saying "because it's not the original Lemmings".  The rest are fortunately addressable--though at Dimwit's current pace of progress, maybe not in our lifetime.  O_o

[guest]

anyway I'm sure it's possible to hack Custlemm to play music...

Well, at this point it'd be a blind search if I were to try, so unless Mike reveal some concrete searachable bits, don't get your hopes up.

Besides, I still think it'd be better to just play, with a separate program, whatever music you fancy in the background while playing the game.

-------------------------

Oh wow, I didn't even realize this is the "group level" thread!  We sure have gone a bit off topic.  

[Timballisto]

Well yeah, but I suppose that's okay seeing as we're waiting on what I'm sure will be a great addition to the level from Insane Steve.

...

Hey, who ever said we had to do one at a time?  Why not do two levels at a time?  If anyone wants to form or join another group, cheapo or lemedit, say so.  There's no reason not to do another.

[Isu]

I'll join the second group, I don't really care if it's lemedit or cheapo (although Cheapo is still preferred ).

[Proxima]

I'll join a Cheapo group if one starts.

Tumble_weed: I am addressing two of your problems. I've made a set of styles with the authentic graphics, and with (what I hope are) more appealing level-introduction and level-completion screen. However, we're waiting on guest to complete the music.....

[guest]

I've made a set of styles with the authentic graphics,

Incidentally, it was never quite clear to me how exactly you did that.  I'm under the impression that CustLemm/LemEdit doesn't work on your XP machine, and since the Mac doesn't connect to the Internet, you wouldn't be able to get anything from there either.  So what's the source of your authentic graphics?  ::

[Proxima]

The Lemmings Solution, Shvegait's level pictures, Planet Lemmings (for the Genesis levels) and some good old-fashioned hard work.

[guest]

Hmm, well ok I hope it is reasonably complete.  LemEdit users would be annoyed if you're missing any terrain pieces.  

What about the interactive objects?  None of the sources you mentioned have animated graphics as far as I can tell?

But one interesting incentive for LemEdit users:  does your style contains graphics from the "special graphics" levels?  Sounds like it does, right?

[Proxima]

Not yet, but hey, it would be easy enough to do those too. If I can find the time -- they'd be much harder work, and I shudder at the thought of four new sets of standards and intro screen images (yes, I'm picky, I like making those different with each style).

Many of the interactive objects I took by snapshotting individual frames from the game itself on the Genesis emulator. (I know.... it was a heck of a lot of work. But I wanted to do it.) For some I used the Cheapo ones. (I actually prefer the Cheapo crystal, column and pink style exits to the originals. And getting all the frames for the trap objects would have been far too much work even for me -- though I did get the dirt style traps from the Lem-Dirt style by making levels with a dozen of each so I could snapshot several frames at once.)

I'm fairly sure there are almost no terrain pieces missing. I couldn't work out from the levels I studied exactly what the individual unit is for the curly ground terrain in the pink style, but I hope that the pieces I included are adequate. I couldn't find any levels using the Q and Z from the fire style lettering, so for consistency I kept the Cheapo graphics for the entire alphabet, but included alongside them the X, exclamation mark, and arrow from the original.

Anyway, if there are any terrain pieces missing, I think the extra ones I've included will more than make up for it.

[Mindless]

i have all the terrain peices in bmp and png format if anyone wants them

[tumble_weed]

that would be cool if you split the special levels up into pieces ...so we could make levels that are like the special levels.

I'll join the next Custlemm level...although I guess I could try to help with a Cheapo

[chaos_defrost]

Part of my problem is that I've had work and the like. I think this isn't necessarily the best time for me to be working on the level.

So, I've got an idea for a minor solution addition (it really doesn't change the existing solution much -- just adds something to it) and will probably add aesthetic terrain pieces. If I had a bit more time, I'd make a more solution-oriented addition. Should be done by tomorrow.

If we do another, I should be up for it, if I have the time.

[Mindless]

i have all the terrain peices in bmp and png format if anyone wants them

http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/_misc/lem_terrain_gfx.zip

Edit: note that the bmp's have a 1px border (pink) on every side, but the png's have no border

[Proxima]

that would be cool if you split the special levels up into pieces ...so we could make levels that are like the special levels.

I'm working on it. I've done the Mayhem special level already.... most of the work was not so much splitting it up, as "filling out" the pieces that go behind the others or off-screen so you can't see what the rest of the piece looks like.

[Proxima]

OK, I've done the Tricky and Taxing specials now. I'm highly tempted to give up on the Fun one, though; the trees are much too tightly clumped together to separate, and there aren't really any individual "pieces" of graphics. Votes, anyone?

[tumble_weed]

yeah I see your point...

and I suggest that you don't under any circumstances do the sunsoft level

[guest]

Many of the interactive objects I took by snapshotting individual frames from the game itself on the Genesis emulator. (I know.... it was a heck of a lot of work. But I wanted to do it.)

So what about the ONML graphics sets?  I assume that since you're asking me for the ONML MIDIs, you must have some ONML stuff in there.  But "Genesis emulator" isn't an option when it comes to interactive objects in the ONML graphics sets.

[Proxima]

Peter's Cheapo styles for the ONML sets already have the original graphics -- or at least, I can't tell any difference.

[tumble_weed]

uh...is this level progressing?

[Mindless]

http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/_misc/lem_terrain_gfx.zip

Edit: note that the bmp's have a 1px border (pink) on every side, but the png's have no border

now, the objects also:
http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/_misc/lem_object_gfx.zip

[JM]

Thanks for the objects.

[chaos_defrost]

Should be progressing, soon. I had a party yesterday, and... ya. Should be moving along today.

EDIT: Ok, so I've made my addition, and I think I managed to add something cool to the solution, but I can't get a necessary trap to work. Any ideas?

[tumble_weed]

try changing around the Z value...

[Proxima]

now, the objects also:

*cries*

Thank you so much! Now my new styles will truly have all the original graphics...... though hey, personally I think I did a pretty good job sequencing the ones I did all by myself.........

[guest]

EDIT: Ok, so I've made my addition, and I think I managed to add something cool to the solution, but I can't get a necessary trap to work. Any ideas?

Regretably I haven't got a chance to look at it yet, but 2 general things to look out for:

1) except for entrances, interactive objects only take effect if their z-order is 0 thru 15 (ie. the first 16 slots), else they are basically fake

2) An object's activation area will always be aligned to a multiple of 4 in the y (vertical) axis, so it's best to have the y coordinate of the object itself be a multiple of 4.

[tumble_weed]

ahh thanks guest for #2...I remember I heard that about a year and a half ago...but i completely forgot...that would explain why the exit doesn't work sometimes

[chaos_defrost]

Ah. The Z order was 31 for whatever reason. Works fine now.

Your move, Shvegait.

[JM]

How's work on this level going?

[Conway]

Download it and see!

 edit: Nice addition, Steve! I knew you'd liven it up somehow. B)

[Shvegait]

This is going to be interesting... I'm gonna go take a walk. Maybe some good idea will hit me  

[Shvegait]

OK, I've made my addition (The walk helped a ton!) It's all down to guest, now

Download Here

[guest]

Wow that was quick.

I have been and will still be at work for the next 5 hours, so don't expect anything from me until at least tomorrow.  I still haven't seen what Insane Steve did, mind you.  

[Shvegait]

Well, the quickness should give you an idea of how much free time I have right now I should also say that the trick I added is one I had been looking for a long time to put in a level, and I was lucky that it could fit in here.

Oh, and I called the level "Collaboration", of course because of the whole concept behind the level, but also because of how the climbers have to work together.

[chaos_defrost]

I just realised my addition can be back-routed with a very well-placed bomber. This can be fixed by shifting one piece I placed left 2 pixels, and another I placed left one pixel. It doesn't affect any one else's pieces, nor the solution or addition Shvegait made (Very neat addition, by the way). Shall I fix this, or should it wait until, say another go-round? Or...?

[JM]

So has the level been finished then or almost?

[guest]

I just realised my addition can be back-routed with a very well-placed bomber. This can be fixed by shifting one piece I placed left 2 pixels, and another I placed left one pixel. It doesn't affect any one else's pieces, nor the solution or addition Shvegait made (Very neat addition, by the way). Shall I fix this, or should it wait until, say another go-round? Or...?

Go ahead and fix this.  To Shvegait:  please keep the existing version as well so I can decide which version to base off from.  Although highly unlikely, it could be the case that I might in the end prefer to expand off of the backrouted version.

[JM]

I've had a look at this level and it's not bad.I really like it.

[Shvegait]

Oh, good. I had noticed that backroute, but I forgot to say something. &#A0;X_X I wasn't sure if it was a big deal or not, because it just allows you slightly more room for error (unless you are referring to something else). The tools are all still used in basically the same places, and to the same effect.

@guest: Will do, but I suspect it won't matter either way.

[tumble_weed]

This can be fixed by shifting one piece I placed left 2 pixels, and another I placed left one pixel.

i haven't checked out the level yet, but it sounds like a really precise level...I'll download your additions tonight and see what you've done

[guest]

All right, judge for yourself  :-/:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/grplv1-6.zip

I'm still not at peace with my additions, but turns out one lovely aspect of being the last person to make additions is that, adding just a single skill to the skillset often results in backrouting other people's contributions if you're not careful.  So ultimately, sorry but I'm just unable to come up with anything better than what you get right now, and I don't want to drag on with this.

Note:  I still haven't seen Insane Steve's fixes yet, so I'm going to let him do the fix himself directly on this version of the level (it wouldn't affect anything else besides his portion of the level).  The level in its current state is based off of what Shvegait originally put out.

[Proxima]

Any chance of a screenshot?

[chaos_defrost]

Actually, downloading the level, it'd appear the back-route's already fixed.

[I'd add more to this, but I have to go somewhere.]

[guest]

Actually, downloading the level, it'd appear the back-route's already fixed.

Well ok, I did silently fix one part of your stuff, namely getting rid of the ability for you to build off the left edge of the sphere.

But you mentioned shifting something else 2 pixels and I have no idea what that was.

[Shvegait]

It could have been the ledge. Err.. maybe not, I don't know.

[chaos_defrost]

By changing this, you've actually eradicated the back-route I had mentioned: If you time a bomber so that a lemming can land on the sphere facing right (bypassing the lower ledge and avoiding the trap), you don't need to use the trick I added. Since the lower ledge now overlaps the sphere, this no longer can be done.

Thank you. The level looks very nice, and the wide variety of tricks utilised is impressive. Now, to see if there's any glaring back-routes...

[guest]

Oh, interesting, didn't think of that.

But that isn't really significantly different from what you intended, as both are precisely-timed bombers.  I should also note that as it is right now, I think things still work if the bomber explodes right after it lands on the lower ledge rather than in mid-air.  That too can probably be fixed by extending the upper ledge's right edge more to the right (which I haven't done).

I silently, and without asking, did the change mainly because of the issue of building off the sphere on its left edge, which means you can use the bomber elsewhere, a potentially much more serious issue.

On that note, for backroute checking, I think the key thing to look out for is the use of a skill in an unintended location thereby shifting skill availability in other areas of the level.  An example would be to use the blocker on the entrance area instead of building.  I believe I've gotten that taken care of (but check for yourself and decide).

[Shvegait]

The aforementioned backroute with the bomber does still work.

I did test placing the blocker at the entrance (for my version), and the only backroute I found was one that allowed you to build up and over the trap, using two miners to get to the exit (fixed by covering a piece of the mesh terrain with an invisible piece). This shouldn't even seem remotely possible now with the additional bar you'd have to mine through. Even though you now have 5 builders, you still only have 3 miners.

The tricks seem constructed such that they can't be backrouted easily if at all, but I don't want to assume anything either.

[JM]

I've been looking at the latest modification of this level and its good.

[guest]

Any chance of a screenshot?

Here you go:

[JM]

The level looks ace.

[Proxima]

If anyone's interested, here's a Cheapo remake of the level.

Guest's walkthrough mentioned a hidden trap without specifying which type, so I've used the knife trap -- which therefore makes its first ever appearance on a Cheapo style! Cameras out, folks, to record the historic moment........

[guest]

Oh, didn't realize you're going to remake it in Cheapo.  I should download it later and see whether/how well the intended solution works there.

There are actually 2 traps on this level, both of which are somewhat hidden.  The one on top of the one-way walls is indeed the "knife" (slicer) trap.  There's also a molecularizer hidden on top of the steel block to the left of the sphere (you can see maybe one pixel of that trap sticking out from the steel).  That trap kills lemmings that drops from the left of the sphere.  There's also a tiny bit of water to the right of the middle crystal (the crystal below the steel block).

[JM]

It was re-made in Cheapo. Cool!!

[Proxima]

Oh, didn't realize you're going to remake it in Cheapo.

Nor did I; it was a spur of the moment decision, largely prompted by the fact that after seeing the screenshot and the walkthrough I still didn't understand what the solution was.

I should download it later and see whether/how well the intended solution works there.

It should work; I've tested all the individual parts of the solution, and given an extra minute to allow for Cheapo's slower movement.

There are actually 2 traps on this level, both of which are somewhat hidden.

OK, I've added the other one. I don't know which trap you call the "moleculariser", since both the remaining crystal style traps do pretty much the same thing but I used the little trap because it's easier to (nearly) hide.

[guest]

Yeah, it's the little one, like the one you find in Taxing 28 for example.  Not the big one that looks like a Van De Graff electric generator.

[JM]

The big one is found on Mayhem 23. The big trap that looks like a Van De Graff electric generator is the moleculariser.

[guest]

Oh ok.  I was always under the impression that the molecularizer is the small one, and the big one is called a "zapper" (since you clearly sees electric sparks with the big one, but not the small one).

[Proxima]

I don't know of any official source for the names, but I checked a couple of walkthroughs, and it seems "moleculariser" is indeed a name for the big discs trap; the walkthrough refers to the small trap as the "Ghostbuster trap", but I don't know how widely used that name is.

[JM]

It told me that in a walkthrough aswell. We should start a topic on the traps of Lemmings.

[Shvegait]

So... anyone up for another round?

(I'm back btw )

[Isu]

Yep, Is it Lemedit or Cheapo?

[Shvegait]

I don't care either way, whatever anyone else wants.

[guest]

let's do a Cheapo one (or if we're starting multiple levels at once, make one of them Cheapo).  Otherwise some people will be continually excluded from participating.  (Well, not counting remakes I guess.)

I'd do a level as long as I don't have to be the first or last person in the chain.  

[Proxima]

Definitely; you did LemEdit so it's only fair to do Cheapo next.

I'm in; who else have we got? (And please can we use one of my new styles? )

Incidentally, one last thought about the traps on the last level. Since the knife trap, when used, is completely hidden -- is there a chance that there is one somewhere, on one of the nine crystal levels on the original game? Finding it would be kind of like the Lemmings equivalent of the Holy Grail.......

[Shvegait]

is there a chance that there is one somewhere, on one of the nine crystal levels on the original game?

Very easy to check in LemEdit. Remember, you only have to check 6 levels, since 3 are repeats.

[Proxima]

Well, would someone who has LemEdit care to check, then?

[guest]

I'm in; who else have we got? (And please can we use one of my new styles? )

You certainly can if you choose to be the first person in the chain.  

[Proxima]

Which raises a point: who decides on the chain order? I guess I could, once I know who's in. (I more or less did for the LemEdit one -- at least, it was my suggestion about which positions got to decide what that was finally followed, even though I wasn't participating! )

[tumble_weed]

I know i said before that I would try out with a Cheapo level...But I'll probably give it a miss...I have uni and other things to do...I'm not in...I'll do a Lemedit one though...and it's surprising that there's only 9 crystal levels, which is weird since its such a nice looking style.

[Isu]

WHO'S IN?
Isu (me)
guest
Ahribar
And probably Shvegait, He didn't say he was, but the message was loud and clear

And note that if I was first I'd probably use ISWorld.sty, since that seems to bring out the best in me (not to mention the fact that I think it's one of the best cheapo styles around).

Oh yes, I assume we're doing this in cheapo, correct?

[geoo]

I'm in, if you don't mind.

Please set me at an early position, I'm not too experienced in editing levels, I only did a few yet (My first Cheapo levels will be released soon).
I don't want to "destroy" the level adding backroutes or whatever.

And yeah, I'd also prefer the ISWorld style.

[Conway]

I'm in. I don't really have a preference on the style, although I think Jaunjo's are pretty sweet.

 Could I be near the end? Since I don't want to mess up this one by trying to finish it prematurely!

[chaos_defrost]

If I were in this, I'd have to be right at the beginning of the row, because I'm leaving on the 6th of august for a trip to Canada, and may not be able to check the boards for at least a week... so I'd need to get my contribution out of the way quickly.

Style? Doesn't matter, although the main preference I have for ISWorld.sty is that I made the terrains to complement my own design style for levels. That said, i don't know how it'll work with other designers, although it appears Isu can make neat levels with it (Or, the one I saw, at least).

If we are going to use a Juanjo style, I like Galaxy.sty or Machine.sty.

[Isu]

Geoo99, would you mind being first?

Geoo99
Isu (me)
Ahribar
Guest
Shvegait
Conway

If Insane Steve were in this, He'd be before Geoo99.

If anyone has an objection to the order I've put this in please say so, so that I (or someone else) can sort it out.

As with the stats....hmm....can I say we follow the same rules as the lemedit one? That seemed to work out great before.

And we also need to decide which style we're using. I suppose If Geoo99 were to go first he'd get to choose.

Is everyone okay on that?

[Adam]

Am I too late to join in all of this?

[Isu]

I dont know, there were six before, and we have six now.

[guest]

I'm willing to opt out of this one if you want to join, Adam.

[Adam]

I'll wait till the next one if there's enough people.

[Conway]

There's no reason we can't have seven, is there?

[Isu]

Not that I know of. I was just trying to keep things likethey were in the Lemedit one.

[JM]

Who's working on the next Lemedit level?

[Proxima]

As with the stats....hmm....can I say we follow the same rules as the lemedit one? That seemed to work out great before.

Except that in Cheapo there's more to decide: intro text, hints, level size, music.

We should work out a system whereby some people will choose two things -- preferably putting the smaller decisions together, like time and hints. (Those two would go well being both decided by the last person.) I could try to draw up an order, but first I'd need to know who's in; we seem to have eight people at the moment.

[guest]

8?  JM up there is asking about LemEdit not Cheapo, so I think it's only 7.

[guest]

8?  JM up there is asking about LemEdit not Cheapo, so I think it's only 7.

Whoops, my bad, maybe it's 8 after all.  Actually it's ISU's fault  :

Geoo99, would you mind being first?

Geoo99
Isu (me)
Ahribar
Guest
Shvegait
Conway

I dont know, there were six before, and we have six now.

Isu's giving me the impression that we had 6 people + Adam = 7.  Somehow Insane Steve doesn't count as far as Isu' concerned.  

[JM]

I knew it was a cheapo level being worked on but i was wondering if the level after was going to be a Lemedit level.

[tumble_weed]

I'm always up for another Lemedit one..If noone minds I want to go first for the Lemedit one

[JM]

I would do the release rate for the Lemedit level.

[Conway]

How's this:

Insane Steve (size, style)
geoo89 (release rate)
Adam
Ahribar (number of lemmings)
guest (number to be saved)
Isu
Shvegait (time)
Conway (title, intro, screen start)

Terrain quota: 10 per person
Object quota (including steel and one-way walls): 4 per person
Skills: 5 per person

 Adam and Isu could maybe have 12 terrain pieces, 5 objects and 6 skills each, since (chosen at random) they've been left out of choosing the level statistics, or somebody else could volunteer instead.

?

Hints are just an optional extra. We don't really need them. If you like, we could just add one each to explain what each of us did.

 Anything/anyone I'm missing?

[geoo]

Insane Steve (size, style)
geoo89 (release rate)
Adam
Ahribar (number of lemmings)
guest (number to be saved)
Isu  
Shvegait (time)
Conway (title, intro, screen start)

You forgot someone to set the music.

And I would suggest to set the lemmings needed later, cause otherwise the ones after lemmings needed is set can't build the level in that way that some lems may be killed if the lemmings to save is set at the maximum for that time.
Size could be chosen later too, because in that way I can be set that it matches better to the level, otherwise I could be just too short for the last ones to continue editing or have a large bad-looking space.
But the lemmings to let out could be set at the beginning, at least a bit earlier.

A problem was the exit last time as far as I can say that 'cause I wasn't in that time.
I think first one sets the exit and it stays there is a not so good idea because he has to strech the level very much and that way it's hard to build in a puzzle, also this time there are 8 persons taking part, so the level should be even longer than the first one, otherwise the last ones can only add little details to the level and not larger puzzle-like ideas.
How about this: First one sets an exit, and everyone can move it for a certain maximum amount of pixel later.

[Isu]

Isu's giving me the impression that we had 6 people + Adam = 7.  Somehow Insane Steve doesn't count as far as Isu' concerned.  

I said that if Insane Steve were in this he would be before Geoo99. Stop saying that I said there were six (well I did say there were six in a later post, but that's not the point). If Insane Steve hadn't confused me as to how he was involved, then that wouldn't have happened.
Jesus, I am so bad at organizing things :-(.

Here are my views on the statistics:

Insane Steve (size, style)
geoo89 (release rate)
Adam
Ahribar (number of lemmings)
guest (number to be saved)
Isu  
Shvegait (time)
Conway (title, intro, screen start)
 
Terrain quota: 10 per person
Object quota (including steel and one-way walls): 4 per person
Skills: 5 per person

Hmm... I could choose the music and the title doesn't really  count, because I imagine it'll just be called Group contributed level or something like that.

I agree with Geoo99 on the size of the level. We should be able to increase the size at will. I do not think that it should be allowed for anyone to decrease the size though. Better still, set the size for 1500x1500 and have the last person (Conway, in this case) crop the level after completing it.

Is there anything else I need to get off my chest? No, I think I'm done, for now...

EDIT: Oops, I got Guest and Geoo99 mixed up.O_o

[guest]

I said that if Insane Steve were in this he would be before Geoo99. Stop saying that I said there were six (well I did say there were six in a later post, but that's not the point).

Hehe, that's all right, I wasn't being serious.  

the title doesn't really &#A0;count, because I imagine it'll just be called Group contributed level or something like that.

I don't agree with that.  It's going to get really boring if every group level ends up with a title like that.

-----------------

On another note, I think geoo89's idea about the exit is brilliant and we should at least try adopting the idea on this level to see how it works out.

[chaos_defrost]

Ok then. If I am going to start, I'll have something up soon. Maybe later today.

As for the style, what would you all prefer to work with? I saw two people mention the ISWorld.sty style, although it seems a bit narcissistic to just go ahead with this style. That said, anyone have any serious objections to the style?

[guest]

On another note, I think geoo89's idea about the exit is brilliant and we should at least try adopting the idea on this level to see how it works out.

So what do people think about being allowed to move the exit away from the entrance by max of 80 pixels horizontal and 50 pixels vertical?

80 and 50 because that's 1/4 of 320 and 200 respectively, so in other words, you can move the exit at most a quarter of a screen's width and height.

Too much?  Too little?

Another thing worth mentioning:  it's pretty obvious, but once the initial release rate has been decided, you probably shouldn't add new entrances to the level, since that changes the dynamics of how lemmings are released on all existing entrances.

[guest]

How's this:

Insane Steve (size, style)
geoo89 (release rate)
Adam
Ahribar (number of lemmings)
guest (number to be saved)
Isu
Shvegait (time)
Conway (title, intro, screen start)

We don't really need to give Conway 3 things to worry about.  I think it is perfectly reasonable to have one person do the title, then someone else after him do the intro.  Screen start can be done in any order, together with other statistics or by itself.

Background color is also technically a possible setting, even though 99% of the levels out there uses black.

Object quota (including steel and one-way walls): 4 per person

I forgot, but I was under the impression that the quotas for LemEdit counts steel areas separately from other interactive objects.  Of course, we don't have to follow that.

[Proxima]

Damn timezones I've missed most of the discussion. Here are my thoughts.

Screen start is a very small thing (and if there's only one entrance it's pretty much decided anyway) so it's only fair to give that to someone with something else. I suggest:

Insane Steve -- style
geoo89 -- number of lemmings
Adam -- release rate
Ahribar -- music
guest -- number to save
Isu -- time
Shvegait -- title
Conway -- intro text and screen start

I've deliberately rearranged a little so as not to give Isu the title, if "Group contributed level" is the best he can come up with I also don't approve of deciding the release rate first, even before the number of lemmings.

Please, please don't let's mess with background colour.......

Hints: I like Conway's idea, but I don't want to end up with eight hints. Let's say everyone has an optional quota of 1 hint they can add if they like. You can't change the order of existing hints, but you can add yours at any position in the order.

Size: go with Isu's idea of starting at maximum (1500x1500) and cropping the level at the end -- that works best, I think.

Entrances and exits: I think it is a good idea to allow exits, but no other objects, to be moved once placed. Instead of a quota of how far you're allowed to move them, I suggest that a move counts as using up one of your quota of objects. (I initially thought two, but since you only get four that's maybe a bit harsh.)

Could we have a quota of, say, 2 terrain erasures per person? Just in case there are annoying fiddly bits that you can't quite get to work?

Style: I would have chosen one of mine if I'd been first, so I can't say it's unfair that you choose one of yours..........

[guest]

Hints: I like Conway's idea, but I don't want to end up with eight hints. Let's say everyone has an optional quota of 1 hint they can add if they like. You can't change the order of existing hints, but you can add yours at any position in the order.

I don't even know the hint feature actually works in Cheapo.  (Don't seem to remember ever seeing it on anyone's levels.)  So how does it work?  Is it related to those I think so-called "hint arrow" objects?

Entrances and exits: I think it is a good idea to allow exits, but no other objects, to be moved once placed. Instead of a quota of how far you're allowed to move them, I suggest that a move counts as using up one of your quota of objects.

Ok, sounds fine.  Do realize though that this is probably less restrictive than what I suggested (not that I'm complaining ), since if the last group level is of any indication, people rarely reached their quotas on objects.

Could we have a quota of, say, 2 terrain erasures per person? Just in case there are annoying fiddly bits that you can't quite get to work?

Well, in LemEdit, there are no erasers but you can turn any terrain pieces into effectively an eraser, so I think in there the black pieces were part of the terrain quota.  I'm fine here with either the 2 terrain erasure as a separate quota or as something to be taken out of the terrain quota.

[guest]

Please, please don't let's mess with background colour.......

LOL    Funny you said that, when considering your Minesweeper level is almost like using a background color (I know it isn't, but you know what I mean.)

Anyway, I do agree in that 99% of the styles out there more or less assumes (ie. works best with) a black background anyhow.

[geoo]

I don't even know the hint feature actually works in Cheapo.  (Don't seem to remember ever seeing it on anyone's levels.)  So how does it work?  Is it related to those I think so-called "hint arrow" objects?

If you hit Esc during the game, a bar at the top appears with options "Game", "Level" and "Hints", in Hints: "First hint", "Next hint", "Previous hint".
You can get hints there (if the author built some in).
E.g. Insane Steve often uses hints in his levels.

[Proxima]

Or, hit ctrl-H for first hint, ctrl-N for next hint, and ctrl-S to make the hint disappear when you've finished with it.

Hint arrows can be set to appear together with a hint, if you want to pinpoint a particular location -- to make it clearer what your hint refers to, or to reveal the location of a hidden object if you're feeling generous. The hint object's data number determines which number hint it appears with. (If you leave it at 0, they won't appear at all.)

[chaos_defrost]

You know, I really don't have the time for making too many more levels. Therefore, I'm scratching myself from the Cheapo level, and deferring the style selection/first move to geoo89. My apologies for this, but preparations for my trip are taking quite a while.

[geoo]

Ok, I'll do this.

[guest]

You know, I really don't have the time for making too many more levels. Therefore, I'm scratching myself from the Cheapo level, and deferring the style selection/first move to geoo89. My apologies for this, but preparations for my trip are taking quite a while.

Oh well.  But enjoy your trip!  B) What places in Canada will you be visiting?

[chaos_defrost]

I'll be going to Quebec City, and staying at Laval University [This is a college-sponsored trip, as part of the University Honors Program]. The intent of the trip is to compare the government and social issues of Canada to those of the United States. I don't offhand remember all the places I'll be visiting, really.

[guest]

I'll be going to Quebec City, and staying at Laval University [This is a college-sponsored trip, as part of the University Honors Program].

Oh ok, that's cool too.

Quebec is nice.  I think the last time I was ever there was like probably more than 10 years (with family).  It was more a quick stop than a visit, but I do remember enjoying the frenchy atmosphere of that place.

[Proxima]

Well, hope you have fun

Now, we'll need to draw up a revised order to take account of the fact we have one fewer person.... something like this:

geoo89 -- style
Adam -- number of lemmings
Ahribar -- release rate and music
guest -- number to save
Isu -- time
Shvegait -- title
Conway -- intro text and screen start

Yes, I know that ends up with me choosing two things, but it seemed the quickest and simplest way to rearrange the order, and they're both very little things. I can swap with someone if anyone thinks I'm being unfair.

[guest]

<snip>
Ahribar -- release rate and music
<snip>

Yes, I know that ends up with me choosing two things, but it seemed the quickest and simplest way to rearrange the order, and they're both very little things. I can swap with someone if anyone thinks I'm being unfair.

I'm fine with it......

......At least until I start regretting it when geoo89 ended up choosing Ahribar's MichaelPink style and Ahribar ended up choosing music #25.  

<covers head and runs away while being chased by Ahribar with a club>

Hehe ok I'll stop.    Honestly, I don't really care.  B)

[geoo]

Ok, first part is done. I used the form by tumble_weed as readme form, only changed the data of course.
.zip can be downloaded here:
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/grouplevel2-1.zip

I used copy and paste once to shorten one tile, I hope this is allowed. It's the tile on the top of the obstacle.

I added no hint because it's quite difficult to write them that they still work for the last version. e.g. referring to "the basher" will be strange if there are more than one basher later.

[Proxima]

Ach, I forgot to mention..... while I'm over here I don't have the ISWorld style, could someone send or upload it please?

[chaos_defrost]

ISWorld Style

[Adam]

I'm happy with that. I get a really easy job ^_^

[Proxima]

Thanks, Steve

[Timballisto]

I'll join the next lemedit one.  Tumble can start it out.

[tumble_weed]

I think the Lemedit one needs a few more people...

[Conway]

I'm afraid I'll be going to London next week, so don't expect anything from me until Friday. I doubt the my turn in the level design will have come around by then though. I still haven't passed the first entry! I should try to do that before I leave tomorrow.

 You can put me down for the next Lemedit one too.

[tumble_weed]

okily

so far

Me
Conway
Timb
JM

[Isu]

 Yes, I can take part too. I have yet to do my turn on the cheapo, but I s'pose I can participate in lemedit.

How's the level going Adam?

[geoo]

Ok...if I don't have to choose the title...me too.

[Shvegait]

I'll participate with a LemEdit one as well.

geoo89, have you started the Cheapo one yet? You're first on the list.

[geoo]

Yes, see reply #216.
It's Adam's task to continue now.

[Timballisto]

K we now have enough people for the next lemedit.  Now we just need Tumble to start us off.

TW
Conway
Timb
JM
ISU
shvegait

to see what is changed by each person, please refer to the final draw up of responsibilities for the first lemedit level.

[Shvegait]

Yes, see reply #216.
It's Adam's task to continue now.

Oops. I did see that a couple days ago too. Sorry bout that.

Adam, have you made any progress?

[JM]

Who's doing what on this lemedit level?

[Timballisto]

1.
-terrain set
2.
-lemmings given
3.
-RR
4.
-lemmings needed
5.
-title
6.
-time

[tumble_weed]

After I finish my uni assignment I'll get started on this and Timballisto...5 should be time and 6 should be title....the title is best left to the end, for example if the timing of the level is an integral part of the puzzle then it could form part of the title (ie Just a Minute)

oh and I'll tell everyone now...I'll be using the Hell set since it's my favourite....and apparantly it's other people's favourite too according to the poll...and also...to avoid the problems we had last time (the level feeling like its already complete after the first couple of people) I'll put the entrace and exit further away...

Remember the least person will complete the level, so people 1-5 don't need to in any way finish making the level.

[Timballisto]

Okay.   I guess we'll make the time one #5 then.

I'm interested to see what you'll come up with.

[tumble_weed]

hehe so am I...I will surprise everyone

[JM]

I have free time to work on the level.

[JM]

Has any progress been made on this Lemedit level yet?

[Proxima]

How's the Cheapo one going? Where is Adam?

FYI...... my girlfriend's computer has gone bust, we're getting it fixed, but I will be out of contact for a while. (We've temporarily hooked up her mother's computer to the Net, which is why I am writing this.) From the looks of it, that shouldn't be a problem but if Adam does get it done in the next day or so, don't be too cross if I don't get it for a few days.

[tumble_weed]

really sorry I have a Uni assignment due on Monday and I have to work on...I'm really sorry if I'm inconveniencing people.

[JM]

Don't worry it's ok. We could start on the level now couldn't we?

[Isu]

As with Cheapo, where has Adam been lately? He seems to have been online to register his participation, but now he's gone. What do we do? ::

[ccexplore]

Hmm, seems like he's been AWOL for about 2 weeks.  If by the 21st he doesn't show any signs of life, we should discuss shoving him to the end of the chain (or just drop him out of it altogether) and rearrange who-does-what for the rest of us.

[JM]

Perhaps he's on holiday

[ccexplore]

Well, if that's true he should've said something about it to us.  It's irresponsible to just run off for weeks like this without leaving so much as a word to anyone else.

Anyhow, there're still a few days left before the 21st.

[Shvegait]

Adam does that. He shows up for a couple of days and disappears for a couple of months. Nothing unexpected.

[ccexplore]

Well, a couple of months is a totally unacceptable amount of time to stall a chain level for.  I'm afraid we'll have to do without him if he doesn't show up.

[Timballisto]

Try emailing him.  If he doesn't email you back within a little time, then I would move on.

[JM]

Yeah you could e-mail him. I'm just waiting for Tumble Weed to work on the new Lemedit level.

[Proxima]

Adam isn't easy to reach by e-mail, I think. YIM is better if you manage to find him.

[tumble_weed]

ok everyone the file is uploaded at http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/

remember to read the text file

I have specifically not made a complete path to the exit, since the problem last time that we ended up stuck with a solution too early in the process.

Enjoy.

[JM]

I'll take a look at the level

[Proxima]

OK, since Adam hasn't shown up I've rearranged the order for the Cheapo level and done my bit (since I was next after Adam). The results are here: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/grouplevel.zip

Apologies to geoo89 for not using his solution; I thought it was too restrictive, in that the first person in the chain shouldn't be trying to make a complete level..... unless we want the level to look like a series of puzzles one after another rather than one big puzzle. I've made notes on how my draft can be solved, but I expect the final draft won't use those ideas either.

EDIT: it occurs to me, how about for anti-backroute purposes we allow skills to be deleted as well as added? Should we make a separate quota for this? Thoughts?

[ccexplore]

EDIT: it occurs to me, how about for anti-backroute purposes we allow skills to be deleted as well as added? Should we make a separate quota for this? Thoughts?

Well, since we don't truly know the final solution until the last person finishes, I'm not sure how well that'd work.  Maybe the next person would actually want to take the level in the direction of the backroute rather than what the previous person had in mind.  And adding/removing terrain is another potential way to eliminate backroutes.

Still I guess we can try it out and see how well it works.  I'd think a delete quota of 1 or 2 should probably be enough.  I personally will try not to use it at all unless absolutely necessary.

[Proxima]

It's a fair point..... hey, how about, instead of a separate quota, deleting a skill counts as using up one of your quota of 5 skills? That way, the people early in the chain won't want to delete because they're still building up the level, but it's available for the last people to make more use of.

Also..... you do know you're next?

[JM]

Has anybody done any more work on the Lemedit level yet?

[Timballisto]

We're waiting for Conway, but he doesn't appear to be on the board.  At least not recently.  If he doesn't come back soon we should try to email him, or we could just skip him if he doesn't respond to that.

[JM]

He was supposed to be doing the number of lemmings to appear on the level and if he manages to do that I could do the number of lemmings to be saved.

[Conway]

Nooooooooo! Don't finish without me! =8O  What is the quota for terrain/objects/skills?

[Timballisto]

I take it you got my email then?  

10 terrain pieces.
4 objects
3 or less steel areas
5 skills

[Conway]

Oh yeah. I just read it, after reading your message. Have to go now, I should get it done tomorrow.

[JM]

That's ok. I can tell this is gunna be a brilliant level.

[Conway]

Give me until the end of the week, okay? Sorry for the delay.

[Timballisto]

That's fine.  It's not like I expected instantaneous results.  I definitely wouldn't expect that from myself.  In fact, take your time.  I probably will be long with getting in my part.

[tumble_weed]

Yeah there's no rush I even took ages to get the first bit done...

[JM]

Well the design of the level looks good and i'm loving it.

[ccexplore]

Also..... you do know you're next?

Just a ping that I haven't forgotten about this at all, but sadly I didn't do much on it yet either.  I should definitely have something by next weekend or sooner though.

[Conway]

Mine is up. There's still no intended solution, but I think I've made a pretty pattern or something!  X_X

[Timballisto]

um, where is it?  Mindless's portal?

[Conway]

Yep! http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt
Grplv2-2.zip

 Sorry, I should have said.

[JM]

I got the download

[JM]

Are we still working on this group level for Lemedit because I haven't heard about it for about 10-12 days?

[Timballisto]

Yeah.  I realize I haven't gotten around to my turn yet.  Sorry.  I've got a lot of tough classes this year, so I have had a lot of homework.  I'll try to get it done within two days.

[JM]

That's ok Tim. I'd love to see this level when it's complete. It looks good so far.

[tumble_weed]

yeah get it done when you have time...when you have your work done you should work on it. I've been having assignment after assignment (and exams coming up)...i haven't had much time to play lemmings recently, so i guess i understand.

[ccexplore]

Shoot!  I just realize the Cheapo group level completely slipped off my mind.  

I'm still planning to finish my part, although I do want to make certain other long-overdue stuff a higher priority, so I think we're looking at Sept 24 for me to contribute my part.

If that's too late, I'm willing to switch places with the people following me in the group chain.

[JM]

When Timballisto has done his part of the Lemedit level I'll do my part

[Timballisto]

Alright.  Finally I've added my part.  Hopefully we come up with some sort of solution soon.  If we can't do that very well then I suggest the next level we make has more of everything available for each person.

[JM]

It's at the Lemmings file Portal is it?

EDIT: Tim you have missed out the level file.

[Timballisto]

Try it now.

[JM]

Yay! File's there

[guest]

The level's looking good. The hell graphics are ace.

[Timballisto]

JM you're the one who's next right?

[JM]

Yeah I'm next I'm working on the level and I'll upload my work when it's done.

EDIT: Go to http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php

I have uploaded the file. Isu is working next right?

[Timballisto]

I think so.  Did you edit the readme?  I don't think your name is starred.

[Isu]

After I finish my uni assignment I'll get started on this and Timballisto...5 should be time and 6 should be title....the title is best left to the end, for example if the timing of the level is an integral part of the puzzle then it could form part of the title (ie Just a Minute)

Referencing this, am I doing the time or the title? :mikeconfused:

[Timballisto]

You're doing the time.  Who's the last person again?

[JM]

Shvegait is after Isu.

EDIT: In the readme file I've now starred my name. Isu is next then Shvegait.

[Isu]

My update complete. It's grplv2-5.zip

The most noticeable change of mine is the letters above one of the trapdoors, I've also added one-way walls.

Note: You might actually be able to squeese a solution out of this already, I don't know, I couldn't pull it off. :-(

Your turn Shvegait!

[JM]

The levels looking good so far.

[tumble_weed]

yeah looking good...I'd like to see how this turns out after Shevegait's contribution

[Shvegait]

Oy, so I have to finish this off? I'll see what I can do...

This seems to be quite a bit more responsibility that last time.

Could anyone involved, especially Timballisto, JM, and Isu, comment on the changes you made to the level, and how you anticipated they would be involved in the final solution? I don't want to inadvertently neglect someone's terrain changes because I couldn't see how they could be involved in a solution, so please, give me a starting point if you can.

[JM]

I made it where you have to save 50/60 lemmings. You know the collum right next to the second entrance which is next to the fireblower. I made that column. I also added in a few builders and that seems to be all the work I've done.

[Shvegait]

I can examine *what* you did by looking at each of the versions. My question is *why* did you do what you did, as far as a solution is concerned.

[JM]

I wanted the level to save a lot of lemmings so I made it 50/60 to be saved. I made a collum next to the second entrance because I wanted the design of the level to look good.

[Isu]

Well, I merely added decor, The one way walls were to encourage teamwork, I also found a good use of Conway's "Out of the Frying Pan" trick. When I started editing the level, I panned out a solution before hand, so as to make my changes fit to the solution I had in mind. Plus, we needed a blocker or two.

[JM]

We did need a blocker or two. I don't know what the name of the level can be. If nobody can find a name for the level I'll PM them some good levels to help out.

[Timballisto]

I added extra builders because there didn't seem to be enough to even get across the lava lake, and I also added the second entrance to make things interesting.  The sticks were intended to have some sort of climber involved.  Also I divised a method to trap the lemmings in a certain spot.

I hope that helps.

[JM]

That helps. I added in some builders to help. Shvegait have you found a title name yet?

[Shvegait]

Sorry for the delay. I'm kind of busy with stuff right now. I still hope to work on this, but have patience.

[JM]

It's ok Shvegait. I'm looking at this level it seems fine.

[MC Marshy]

I've been looking at this level It looks good.

[JM]

We need to finish it sometime

[Timballisto]

Yeah...is it done yet?  If not that's okay.  Just say when you're going to work on it.

[JM]

I hope to get this level finished. The 3rd group level should also be excellent. Anybody got a title for the level?

[Adam]

I'm REALLY sorry for not showing up, there's been far too much happening in my life lately, but now, it's half term and I can start to get back into Lemmings at last ^^, I sincerely hope you can accept my apologies and forgive me.

[Timballisto]

We forgive you.

[JM]

Lemedit Group Level still not ready?

[Shvegait]

I'm sorry, I've been too busy to sit down and think about what to do with the level.

If someone else wants to take it over (who hasn't participated yet! ), maybe that would be best.

[JM]

Maybe Leviathan could help  

[JM]

We haven't touched the 2nd group level for Custlemm in ages  

Someday we should return to it

[Leviathan]

Maybe Leviathan could help &#A0;

If you guys could explain me a bit more about this project I could help maybe...

Off course I'm less active in january due to my approaching exams.

[Timballisto]

A group of people make a lemmings level.  It's kind of like a relay.  One person starts the level and hands it off to the next person, and it just keeps going like that.  You can't change someone else's stuff (although you can add invisible pieces).  Each person is allotted 10 terrain pieces, 5 skills, 3 steel pieces, and 4 objects.  You don't have to use every one, but you can if you want.  Along with those things each person is given a statistic like time or RR.  The list below describes the order of the 'relay' and the other thing the person sets.

1. TW
-terrain set
2. Conway
-lemmings given
3. Me
-RR
4. JM
-lemmings needed
5. ISU
-time
6. Shvegait/Leviathan???
-title

We're on the last stage here, so if you want to help you can discuss it with Shvegait as it's supposed to be his turn.

[JM]

The group level idea for Custlemm is brilliant. We should keep it going. Leviathan if you're reading this topic you could ask Shvegait certainly and then help finish the group level so we can start the 3rd one sometime  

Let's keep this going. It's amazing I'm enjoying it.

[Leviathan]

First let me take a look at the level and see what has been done already...what's the newest version of the level?

[Timballisto]

The level can be found at this place with lots of stuff.  It's grplvl2-5.  You may have to rename the extension but I don't know.

[Leviathan]

It looks nice but I can't come up with a solution yet.

[JM]

I'm no good with solutions but I think I have a few title suggestions for the level although I ain't the one who's doing the title.

Highway to Hell
Judgement Call
Edge of Oblivion
Hell's Plight

I'll try and get a few more if those titles don't seem any good

[Shvegait]

Leviathan, that was the same problem I was having...

The first group level, in which mostly each person put in their own "trick" or thing you had to do to complete the solution, turned out very well I think. This one seems to have very little direction, and you can't expect the last person to be able to put it all together...

[Timballisto]

I think Tumble had an idea for giving a level a second pass...

That might be an idea.

[JM]

One of us could test the level and send a screenshot of how to pass it to one of the other people who are working on the level.

[tseug]

I took a look at the level. It's certainly not impossible, just a matter of executing whatever solution you choose.

[JM]

Tseug are you able to do the solution for the level?

[tseug]

Hold on, I'll give it a try.

EDIT: It will take some sketching. Back to wild 15 atm.

EDIT2: Wild 15 has been conquored. Now I will continue.

EDIT3: It looks like it's impossible without a glitch of some sort. I'm not sure if you want that.

[JM]

Looks like we only have the title and solution left doesn't it?