Absence of VSI: which levels to modify?

[Proxima]

Assuming that VSI will not be reintroduced in D Lix, some levels should have lix counts reduced (with a corresponding reduction in # to save) so the last phase of play does not run on too long. It's true that the player can fast-forward (or turbo), but the new player may not have found this feature yet, and even if they have, it's an unnecessary annoyance.

Of course, "should" in this case is a hypothetical imperative (i.e. a matter of opinion). So, as I go through the levels, I'll note any that I think should be changed, and suggested values to change to. This is a work in progress, so I'll continually edit this post as I go along.

(Simon has recommended I keep all suggestions for modifying levels together, so some of these issues do not relate directly to VSI.)

Format: xx/yy means "yy lix, require xx saved", not two different suggestions for number of lix.

Simple 1 "Any Way You Want" -- even though the point is to be a very easy level, I feel the extra-large SI is more annoying than useful. I suggest 10 lix, SI 50, require 5 or maybe even 2 or 1. Reduce skills to 10 of each.

Simple 2 "Pipe Dream" -- no change necessary as completing the path takes time, but if S3 is changed this should be too, as it feels odd to have the lix count jump downwards in the early levels. I suggest 10/20.

Simple 3 "Building Block Maze" -- lix still coming out when path is complete. I suggest 16/32. Remove imploders and blockers so builder is the initially selected skill.

Simple 4 "Diamond Dash" -- same, even more so as completing the path takes less time than in S3. I suggest 20/40.

Simple 6 "Every Lix for Herself" -- without VSI, saving 100% is much harder than previously. Should this be addressed?

Simple 7 "Blocked by a Snowball" -- the usual problem. I suggest 20/20 (this is fine, even for an early level, as there is no immediate danger and you can use the walker to free a blocker). Simon suggests 19/20, perhaps this is better.

Simple 8 "Goblin City" -- same. High lix count is deliberate to allow the obvious solution (block, bash, platform) with plenty of leeway; however, 100 is unnecessarily high. I suggest 10/50.

Simple 11 "Little Miner Puzzle (part 1)" -- is this level really appropriate for so early? Several of the miner placements are high-precision. If it stays, lix count could be reduced (maybe even to 1!) to avoid other lix getting in the way of selecting the correct lix for mining.

Simple 12 "Get Down from There!" -- usual problem. Also, 75/80 makes the level feel more imposing than it actually is. I suggest 20/25.

Simple 13 "Let's block and blow?" -- not a big problem as SI is low. However, as the level is so short and simple I'd be inclined to reduce it to 19/20.

Simple 15 "Put Your Lix on Ice" -- remove floater, imploder, blocker.

Simple 16 "Alternative Methods Recommended" -- retitle? Most solutions will not finish the path while lix are still coming out, but it is possible. I suggest 30/40.

Simple 18 "Minimalism (Part 1)" is unsolvable. I'd like to propose we replace it with my contest level, "A Necklace of Raindrops", perhaps placing the latter as Simple 11 so that "Little Miner Puzzle (Part 1)" can be moved up.

Simple 21 "Lix Potion Number Nine" -- intended solution changes SI, but level is possible without. Should it be left at SI 50 or changed to SI 4? If changed, doing nothing solves the level, but players still have to realise the trick. If left at SI 50, reduce to 20/40.

Simple 23 "Four Corners" -- usual problem. I suggest 36/40.

Simple 24 "Pitfall" -- change to 29/30.

Simple 25 "Ferry Tale" -- exit top is missing.

Simple 31 "Low Clearance" -- usual problem. I suggest 30/40.

Simple 32 "The Lion, Lix and the Wardrobe" -- change to 20/40.

Simple 33 "Don't Leave Me Hanging!" -- change to 30/30.

Simple 34 "Fear of Heights" -- the solution I think intended requires VSI. Level is solvable without, for instance by waiting until all lix are out, then digging in the middle. This feels like a hack and requires a long wait. Maybe the level should be replaced altogether?

Simple 35 "One Way Road" -- needs hyphen in title.

Simple 38 "The Two Towers" -- change to 38/40.

Simple 40 "The Road Goes Ever On" -- for consistency with S1, 10 lix and SI 50. Could require 100% as this is easy. Could also reduce skills to 20 builders and platformers, 10 of all others, but perhaps it's better to leave the higher skill counts so novice players have more leeway?

[Simon]

Excellent thread. It's great how you take initiative on the community pack!

I like to stop spawning before the player has finished carving the path. If needed against backroutes, it's okay to keep spawning afterwards. But in general, let's avoid this.

Simple 7 "Blocked by a Snowball": I suggest 19/20 instead of 20/20. I have no other reservations with your ideas so far in Simple 1 through 15.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Time for the Quirky levels!

Quirky 2 "Flugtag" could be reduced as low as 25/25, solution requires waiting for the last lix to take a skill, which is annoying with many lix.

Quirky 4 "Waste Not, Want Not" -- 30/40

Quirky 5 "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" -- 6/10

Quirky 7 "Ramen Masterchef" and Quirky 9 "Setting a Fundament" -- these are further levels like S32 where the work is over once you've got a landing platform under the hatch(es), so there need to still be some lix coming out But perhaps the current 200/400 and 51/100 are too much? Not sure here.

Quirky 11 "Migration" -- remove empty space at far right.

Quirky 14 "The Abominable Snowlix" is another, less clear-cut than Q7 and Q9, but many lix are lost while the route is built, so you need to have a fair number left. Current stats are 35/50 and I have 27 still in hatch when the route is complete. Maybe 15/30?

Quirky 16 "Roundabout" -- 40/40

Quirky 17 "Decompression Method 1" is unsolvable. I've created a fixed version of the level.

Quirky 19 "That Pesky Gap" may be unsolvable. Anyway the level concept (merge all lix) is annoying without VSI. I suggest replacing the level with "Diggin' the Air" from the outtakes, which is a pretty good level.

Quirky 22 "Under the Rainbow" -- narrow the large gap slightly to avoid bridge-stretching, or remove one or two builders to make Nepster's ceiling route the only solution.

Quirky 25 "Detour" should have numbers substantially reduced, but I don't know what Steve would consider acceptable. Maybe 20/20?

Quirky 26 "Hard to Port!" -- 38/40

Quirky 28 "Lix Lata" -- 20/40

Quirky 29 "Prelude" -- 20/30

Quirky 30 "Snowball Battle" is unsolvable. Easily fixed, though: 20/20 and remove the walker (this is what I've done in the version uploaded in the other topic).

Quirky 32 "Box Set" takes forever with the current 400 lix. Reduce to 80. Save requirement is problematic though; too low and the player can ignore several boxes completely. I think 60/80 is a good compromise.

Quirky 34 "The Pit" -- Not sure. Maybe it's best to leave as it is.

Quirky 35 "Exit, Stage Right" -- 29/30

Quirky 36 "Tower of Babel" -- 30/50, reduce climbers to 30, cubers to 20.

Quirky 37 "Snowjump" -- 10/20

Quirky 38 "The Runaround" -- remove exploder and cuber.

Quirky 40 "The Final Sacrifice" -- 29/30

[Minim]

What does VSI stand for?

[namida]

What does VSI stand for?

I forget the exact wording (SI = spawn interval), but basically, lack of VSI = the release rate can't be changed during gameplay (it can still vary from one level to another).

[Proxima]

Quirky 22 "Under the Rainbow" -- narrow the large gap slightly to avoid bridge-stretching, or remove one or two builders to make Nepster's ceiling route the only solution.

From posts in the old community pack topic, it appears the ceiling route was intended.

[Proxima]

And now for Cunning.

Cunning 1 "LIX" -- SI 35

Cunning 4 "It's a Long Way Up" -- 17/20

Cunning 11 "Babylon Fading" -- 25/25. Maybe delete the rightmost portion of the level to make singlescreen?

Cunning 13 "When the Levee Breaks" -- 15/50, add a walker

Cunning 14 "Don't Look Back" is a Just a Minute type -- completely trivial with no time limit.

Cunning 17 "Some Like to Run" -- remove cuber. Remove background colour?

Cunning 18 "Cold Irons Bound" -- 10/10, reduce floaters to 2

Cunning 24 "All Over the Place" -- 60/60. Remove background colour?

Cunning 31 "It Takes Time to Build..." -- 37/40

Cunning 32 "Well OK Then" -- 4/10, reduce cubers to 6

Cunning 37 "The Rainbow Road" -- 7/10

Cunning 38 "A Completely Ridiculous Level" -- 19/100

Cunning 39 "Dr Strangelix" -- 10/15

[Simon]

I've implemented all changes above. They're excellent suggestions. For 2 or 3 levels at most, I overrode your suggestion. D-Lix 0.6.5 ships with the implemented changes.

If you find problems in already-discussed levels, report them in a fresh post. Don't put important stuff in the posts above.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

So we move on to the Daunting set...

Daunting 4 "Over My Head" -- 15/15

Daunting 8 "Too Far to Walk" is a Just a Minute type, trivial with no time limit.

Daunting 9 "Passing Engagement" -- 10/10

Daunting 13 "I TOLD YOU ABOUT STAIRS BRO" -- 20/20

Daunting 20 "Slipping" -- 20/20. No need to abbreviate Nortaneous's name.

Daunting 21 "Slipping Again" -- 20/20 and remove the floater. Same thing with the name.

Daunting 22 "Lix Ferenda" -- 20/40

Daunting 23 "Segmentation Fault" -- 20/40

Daunting 29, 30 "Buy One Get One Free" (1 and 2) -- ugly stacked exits to prevent using a bomb hole to bypass the exit. Why not put steel there?

Daunting 31 "I'm Gonna Make You Mine" -- 20/30, remove the rock formations in the lower-right and shrink the level accordingly

Daunting 36 "Rumble to the Bottom" -- 20/20

Daunting 38 "Two for his Heels" -- capital H, 99/100

Daunting 39 "The Lix Who Japed" -- SI 60

[Proxima]

And Vicious:

Vicious 1 "Dividing Three By Two" 50/50

Vicious 9 "Lixster Quadrille" 40/40

Vicious 11 "Down Among the Dead Lix" 10/20

Vicious 16 "The Gr8 Escape" 40/40

Vicious 17 "Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks" 20/20

Vicious 18 "Toccata" -- SI 4

Vicious 19 "Thomas the Climber" 39/40

Vicious 23 "A Matter of Perspective" 20/20

Vicious 25 "Brute Fours" 16/20

Vicious 26 "100% Built by Lixes" 25/25

[Proxima]

A few more suggestions for the early ranks:

Simple 16 "Alternative Methods Recommended" and Daunting 12 "Alternative Methods Required" -- both names should be changed since S16's name is too long, but the pairing should be kept. I suggest "Alternative Route Recommended" and "Alternative Route Required".

Simple 26 "Charge of the Lix Brigade" -- reduce blockers to 1

Cunning 40 "The Ob3lisk" -- change to 40/80

Simple 13 "Let's Block and Blow?" -- fling-bomber rather than imploder

Simple 21 "Lix Potion Number Nine" -- conversely, give imploder here

[Simon]

Lix 0.6.6 will have all changes above, except for:

• Daunting 29, 30 "Buy One Get One Free" (1 and 2) -- ugly stacked exits to prevent using a bomb hole to bypass the exit. Why not put steel there? -- you or geoo should make this edit. I haven't solved part 2 yet, I don't feel competent to make this change.
  
• Cunning 40 "The Ob3lisk" -- change to 40/80 -- I removed the stacked hatches: Now only one hatch at the top, one at the bottom. Save requirement 20/60, floaters 40->30. When you're done with the top, there are still about 10 lix in hatch. I hope that's okay.
  

If you have further suggestions, please create a new post. I won't look at the posts above anymore.

[geoo]

Notes on some Hopeless levels:


Feel the Pressure: Idea requires SI change. Might be fixable (and a bit easier) with the SI set to the right value from the beginning.

Tinker Tailor: I believe it relied on the time limit for backroute prevention, but I don't remember the exact backroute. Should work with fixed SI in principle.

We're in this one together: Idea based on SI changes. Should still be possible by decreasing the SI, increasing the number of lix and making the level a bit taller.

Oh No, Not Again: Needs SI 4. At most minor adaptations needed.

Won't get fooled again: My solution abuses SI changes. ccx' intended solution is different; I think I know what it is and can check if it needs SI change. But it's border-line glitchy iirc.

[ccexplore]

Hello, real life factors have led to a noticeable drop of forum visits by me over the past few months, nevertheless fear not, I haven't abandoned the community completely.

Won't get fooled again: My solution abuses SI changes. ccx' intended solution is different; I think I know what it is and can check if it needs SI change. But it's border-line glitchy iirc.

My intended solution never needed any SI changes, in fact amongst some of the earlier versions of the level the initial SI had been tweaked once or twice to counteract side effects of any timing differences introduced by terrain changes that were made for backroute fixes.  So not only was variable SI not conceptually required, I had actually maintained the intended solution to be free of needing any SI changes throughout all versions of the level, well before Simon started making a stink about variable SI.

Now of course I have yet to test it out on D-Lix so I don't know (yet) that there aren't some subtle physics differences altering the timing of stuff, and may require some tweaks yet again to the terrain and/or initial SI.  Hopefully not.

One annoying thing about the truly fixed SI now is that you'd have to spend more time waiting for lixes to exit.  It's possible that with some possibilities now completely eliminated by lack of variable SI, the total number of lixes could be drastically reduced as well.  Also, I guess perhaps things might look rather less likely to "work out" on the outset when you're not given the option to vary the SI.

I don't know I'd agree with the solution being borderline glitchy but of course, maybe you have something else in mind.

[ccexplore]

I've confirmed the current version of "Won't Get Fooled Again" worked as-is unmodified in D-lix for my solution.

Of course, it's quite possible it may end up reordered in the set, as fixed SI greatly reduces certain classes of solution possibilities.

[Simon]

Don't look back: This got a time-limit gadget. Unrelated lix activates a discrete trap, so the main crowd can pass. This makes runner assignments harder: The runner arrives at the trap too early.

Runner solution (click to show/hide)

Above the 4th obstacle, assign blocker to the early runner. Mine through this 4th obstacle with a regular lix, thereby releasing the blocker again.

• Okay to keep this level with time-limit gadget?
• If keep, difficulty remains at Cunning?
• Or instead of the time limit, jag the main floor diagonally, to kill who turns? Must jag very often, to prevent blocker assignments next to a small obstacle.
• Or replace level entirely? The level is artificial without time limit support by Lix. I want to create at least one forest level anyway, to showcase the forest tileset within the community pack. Proxima has suggested Get Down From There in Simple.

ccx: Happy to see you around again, thanks for supporting your level. I hope the VSI-free game grows on you a little. It feels correct to me, play has become much more concise without VSI and time limits.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

There is a simpler way to do the revised Don't Look Back. I think it's okay and well-placed in terms of difficulty.

Solution (click to show/hide)

The runner mines through the fourth obstacle. When building over the third obstacle, start the builder further back to waste more time.

[Simon]

Don't Look Back without the time-limit gadget. The time limit's purpose was that nobody turns; let's aim for the purpose, not the means.

The exit sits in a box with only a small opening. The box turns uninterrupted builders. An uninterrupted builder was too slow in the old version, and turning fits the level's spirit.

Agree how Don't Look back is streamlined, without any hard trick, good for Cunning.

Proxima: Let's do another release, because you're already pointing people to your zip file. To cover 5 ranks with replays, please send me replays for:
Daunting/buyonegetonefree2.txt
Vicious/alieninvasion.txt
Vicious/chasm.txt
Vicious/halfwaydownthestairs.txt
Vicious/hellfire.txt
Vicious/lixesinarms.txt
Vicious/spingeometry.txt

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Zip contains the requested replays.

[Proxima]

I've updated the zip of the lemforum pack with a couple of lix count changes that I'd decided on but forgotten to do. Old replay of Lixes in Arms probably won't solve, so I've recorded a new one. Let me know if any other levels have problems.

[Simon]

Thanks! I've ran the verifier, we have covered all 200 levels in the first 5 ranks.

Both of your replays for Lixes in Arms solve the level from today's (2016-07-21) zip file of your entire level tree, I keep both replays in the proof collection.

All suggestions from above are included in 0.6.7. For new suggestions, please make a new post.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Playing "No More Heroes" (Hopeless 21) I found an alternative solution that required couple of dozens of tries to get the correct timing to shave off the final two frames, that one lix was too late. This wasn't much fun, so I suggest to make the execution easier. Here are two possibilities:
1) Make my solution easier to execute: This is easily done by changing the SI to 5 or even 6. But Simon thinks that my solution misses one lovely detail.
2) Remove the batter to make my solution impossible: While the current level is solvable without the batter, this solution requires again very precise skill assignments. So I tried to modify the terrain a little bit to make execution easier - see attached level. Without the batter, many of the sawblades are no longer necessary, so I removed all sawblades and all steel that is no longer needed to prevent backroute. I hope, I didn't remove too much.

[Proxima]

Suggestions for lowering lix counts in Hopeless:

Labyrinth of Despair 39/40
Metal City Mayhem 32/32
Think Inside the Box 144/160
Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix 30/30
The Hotel in Hell 17/20
Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite 12/24 (and also The Lion, Lix and the Wardrobe 12/24)

[geoo]

Here's a backroute to the latest version of No More Heroes. It's a side effect of replacing the bomber with a walker. I think in principle the level should still work if walker is replaced by a bomber again, with according terrain changes to keep execution easy, don't know if that causes any issues.

[Nepster]

Replacing the walker with an imploder would create backroutes, but here a version with a fling-bomber instead. Let's see whether the flinging creates new backroutes...

[Simon]

Design history of NMH-with-walker: We sped up the climber path, compared against NMH-C++.

I solved the exploder version. The exploder looks safe on first sight: If you explode close to crowd members, you turn crowd members and lose. Exploders are good, they're funnier than walkers.

Timing is delicate for the level designer, because the level feels nice whhen everything falls into place. I'm okay with erring in the lenient direction.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Suggestions for lowering lix counts in Hopeless:

Labyrinth of Despair 39/40
Metal City Mayhem 32/32
Think Inside the Box 144/160
Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix 30/30
The Hotel in Hell 17/20
Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite 12/24 (and also The Lion, Lix and the Wardrobe 12/24)

Why do you think Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix needs a reduced count? I think this might make the timing more difficult, but I'm not sure. This level should work fine with a Fixed SI and no time limit. The backroute occurs if the This level went under so many changes  I can't remember the backroute that works with unlimited time (if there even was one) but I don't think it matters.

Looking at my own video this should be fine.

here's intended solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie581oadDTs

[Proxima]

The intended solution works fine in D Lix, but with the original 50/50, there were still lix spawning when the route was complete.