Lemmings Forums Level Contest #10 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[namida]

This topic is for discussion, posting replays, etc. If you're an entrant and you want to update any of your levels, please post in the updates topic. The ZIP and NXP attached to this post will be updated periodically, but until the update phase has closed, you should also keep an eye on that topic if you want to be sure you have the latest versions. Updates are now closed.

Rule 1 Levels (Create a level with no permanent skills)
BulletRide's "Precision" (NeoLemmix)
Colorful Arty's "It's A Bad Counting Day" (NeoLemmix)
Flopsy86's "Synchronised" (NeoLemmix)
Gronkling's "Lost Umbrellas" (NeoLemmix)
IchoTolot's "The Drunken Knights of Clausthal" (NeoLemmix)
mobius's "In the Pale Moonlight" (NeoLemmix)
Proxima's "Tailor-made for athletes" (Lix)
Simon's "Long Division v24" (Lix)

Rule 2 Levels (Create a Fun/Tame/Tricky-type level)
BulletRide's "Pyramids Again" (NeoLemmix)
Colorful Arty's "Capture the flag" (NeoLemmix)
Dullstar's "Across the Ball Pit" (NeoLemmix)
Flopsy86's "13 Little Skulls" (NeoLemmix)
geoo's "Marching Band" (Lix)
Gronkling's "Playing in the DIRT" (NeoLemmix)
Minim's "Temple of Versatility" (NeoLemmix)
Nepster's "Just the right skills..." (NeoLemmix)
Proxima's "A Necklace of Raindrops" (Lix)

Rule 3 Levels (Create a level using at least two NeoLemmix-exclusive object types)
Apjjm's "Live And Let Diode" (NeoLemmix)
Dullstar's "Lem-17 Bomber" (NeoLemmix)
IchoTolot's "Beware of the Overload!" (NeoLemmix)
Minim's "If you can't reach 'em..." (NeoLemmix)


Do note that many of the NeoLemmix levels use custom graphic sets. All used graphic sets are among the ones that can be auto-downloaded as needed, so the easiest way to get them is to simply turn "Enable Online Functionality" on in NeoLemmix. If you don't want to / can't use this functionality and need help finding the graphic sets, just ask.

The music files are too large to attach to the post, so you can download them via this Dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6iajvkzyopc8y9q/Contest10Music.zip?dl=0
To use them, place them in a "music" subfolder of your NeoLemmix folder.

For the NeoLemmix levels, an NXP of the entries is also available and attached to this post. Please be aware that there are some Lix entries too, and for obvious reasons these are not included in the NXP.

The update phase is now closed. Voting will open on June 27th.

ZIP / NXP last updated: 2016-06-13 02:43

[Proxima]

Replay for geoo's level

[Simon]

100 % on geoo's Marching Band, and solutions to both of Proxima's levels.

-- Simon

[Colorful Arty]

I can't decide if I should play these casually or do a short Youtube series

[Flopsy]

As far as I'm aware Colorful Arty

myself, namida and IchoTolot are probably doing videos on the contest levels. I think it's nice that multiple people are doing videos this time because last time it was only namida so we only saw his point of view and opinions towards the contest levels.
It would be nice to see these levels from many people's point of view on video, the more the better.

It feels like a mini community pack has come out for this contest
Can't wait to play them but I have to wait until Saturday and I'll have videos up by Sunday afternoon (GMT) hopefully

[Colorful Arty]

Just posted my first video playing the levels. I probably should not have done this blind, since level 1 was so tough I couldn't beat it in the video.

[Nepster]

Lots of replays and lots of comments...

Apjjm: Live and Let Diode (click to show/hide)

This was a fun level, though the teleporter could easily have been removed by a slightly different level design. So I was slightly disappointed as only one instead of the two types of gadgets played an essential role in this level (though of course it qualifies for R3).

Bulletride: Precision (click to show/hide)

Very well-hidden and nice solution, though a little bit too much precision for my taste . It would have been even better, if it was clearer that the trigger areas of the flame-throwers reach beyond the middle part.

Bulletride: Pyramids Again (click to show/hide)

Good looking level. But the solution was slightly boring, because it consisted mostly of bashing along at ground level.

Colorful Arty: It's a bad counting day (click to show/hide)

Excellent level , which will probably not win the beauty contest though . And the last bit of my solution might not be 100% intended though...

Colorful Arty: Capture the flag (click to show/hide)

Levels like this are precisely the reason why I want to cull invisibility (and fake) for objects so much (I am only glad I played the single levels, thus being able to cheat by looking into the editor)

Dullstar: Across the Ball Pit (click to show/hide)

Not my favorite: Too much building and I have already seen too many very similar levels.

Dullstar: Lem-17 bomber (click to show/hide)

Nice level idea, though not the most beautiful of the levels. It would be even better, if I couldn't just use the platformer at the starting platform and save the lemmings this way.

Flopsy: Synchronised (click to show/hide)

Very good level that was much fun to play Only the building parts at both sides could have been one or two builders shorter.

Flopsy: 13 Little Skulls (click to show/hide)

Nice looking level, though too much building+bashing and too little other skill uses.

Gronkling: Lost Umbrellas (click to show/hide)

My best try so far solved only 48/50 lemmings, not 49. But there are so, so, so many places, where something only works by being pixel-precise and so, so, so many other places, where things do not work due to one or two pixels, that this level is not really fun. Please make it (whenever possible) clearer for the player, what approaches work and what won't!

Gronkling: Playing in the DIRT (click to show/hide)

Very beautiful level and much fun for such a relatively easy level.

IchoTolot: The Drunken Knights of Clausthal (click to show/hide)

Good level idea! But the digger needs to be placed pixel-precise (which one only sees after 5 minutes game-play - even shadows won't help, because of the height of the level) and I needed like 10 tries to place the miner correctly, so that the miner survives the fall and is faster than the digger. Moreover I wonder whether the vertical scrolling is really needed here, which I still find confusing.

IchoTolot: Beware the Overload! (click to show/hide)

Sorry, but this level would have been much better, if it had been much smaller. I don't see any reason why it has to be sooooooo big! Currently I frequently got lost on the map and spent way too much time searching where my lemmings are.
The level idea in itself is quite nice.

Minim: Temple of Versality (click to show/hide)

Without the bottom route, this might have been a very good and fun level. But currently there were too many waiting periods and too few things to do.

Minim: If you can't reach 'em... (click to show/hide)

Good level. My only problem is, that the lemmings hop out of the "holding" pit between the teleporter and the steel. Given the existance of the top terrain line, I totally didn't expect that and it was a nasty surprise!
(And I still can't distinguish radiation from slowfreeze objects, but that is not your fault, but that of the style)

möbius: In the pale Moonlight (click to show/hide)

Nice level which requires two different methods to prevent lemmings from splatting.

geoo: Marching Band (click to show/hide)

Much too trivial and after the four skill assignments within the first three seconds, it is waiting, waiting, waiting...

Proxima: A Necklace of Raindrops (click to show/hide)

Fun, easy level. A slightly more restrictive skillset or other slightly less powerful skills wouldn't have hurt the level in my opinion (but then I usually prefer harder levels, so don't give this comment too much weight).

Proxima: Tailor-made for Athletes (click to show/hide)

Another level that was much fun. My solution is slightly on the fiddly side though.

Simon: Long Division v24 (click to show/hide)

Totally, absolutely backrouted!

[everything played with NeoLemmix V1.43 or C++ Lix]

[IchoTolot]

As Nepster: Everthing solves except for Gronklings floater level


Replays attached. 
Comments: Watch my playthrough    

Playlist link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKR1N9oJTTlKa23xOtzcGO4-6cPUwhhia

[Simon]

I have updated Long Division v24 -> v25 to prevent Nepster's backroute. Nice find, I had caught similar backroutes in the last month.

Icho's v24 solution is awesome and fun, maybe even more fun than the intended solution. The solution missed a main trick, so I've rendered it impossible in v25. You must now build from the lowest ledge. Maybe I should have left Icho's v24 solution in.

<IchoTolot> SimonN: My solution was waaaay too fiddly
<SimonN> IchoTolot: hi, yes, it's not the intended route
<SimonN> I have tried to reduce skills as much as I could, so many fiddly routes are already impossible

-- Simon

[Minim]

Nepster mentioned an interesting comment about the styles of one of my levels.

(And I still can't distinguish radiation from slowfreeze objects, but that is not your fault, but that of the style)

When I created this level, I also expected the lemmings to blow up when the timer counts to zero so that it could blow up the platform on the right, not turn into a stoner. When I discovered that it wasn't a radiation object I was thinking "That's my level completely ruined". There was no way on that graphic set that I was able to convert it to a radiation object, so I had to do what I can and add bombers to the level.

As for my other one, I tried to create as many routes and as many solutions as possible to challenge players. Removing the bottom route is only going to make this level less exciting.

[Dullstar]

Here's a replay and review for IchoTolot's "Beware the Overload."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

9/10

Good:  Very interesting puzzle involving crowd control with teleporters.
The actual playable part of the level uses horizontal space well, being neither too large nor too small.

Bad: Somewhat trial-and-error once you figure out the solution.  5 to 10 extra climbers should help with that without oversimplifying the level.
Could be smaller vertically.  Since it doesn't use the updraft for anything except to prevent splatting, maybe this fall would be better off made survivable without it.  The level should still qualify for Rule 3 without it.

[IchoTolot]

Here's a replay and review for IchoTolot's "Beware the Overload."

That's actually an alternative route (the basher should be used differently). But the overall level idea is still there and it's really just a minor variation, so no update required.

Also the size just cames from me having fun building a mech repair station + adding ceiling deco for the upper part    I needed more room for decoration and a better looking landscape!

[namida]

Here are my replays for the NeoLemmix Rule 1 levels. Two of these (BulletRide's and Gronkling's levels) are "best attempts", not actual solutions.

I'm posting playthrough videos like I did last time; playlist is here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWvcY0oGEFwm7cGM5e9-0iMOHbv7NwIn

[IchoTolot]

Updated my replays to the newest versions    (expect V3 of Bulletride's levels as I still used V2)

Simon found another intersting alternative solution on Apjjm's level which could be considered not intended. Replay is also in the zip file.

Also we saw that on BulletRide's R2 level the steel is not steel! Simon tried the ceiling route and we noticed this. Did you turn autosteel off?   

Also my Youtube playlist has been updated as well, showing me solving the V2 levels

[bulletride]

Updated my replays to the newest versions    (expect V3 of Bulletride's levels as I still used V2)

Simon found another intersting alternative solution on Apjjm's level which could be considered not intended. Replay is also in the zip file.

Also we saw that on BulletRide's R2 level the steel is not steel! Simon tried the ceiling route and we noticed this. Did you turn autosteel off?   

Also my Youtube playlist has been updated as well, showing me solving the V2 levels

This level started as an older level I never released thats solution wasn't possible under NeoLemmix mechanics. I changed up most of the terrain to make it more interesting as an easy level but the original lemmix steel probably got messed along the way. Ill fix it in a few nice find.

[mobius]

my level is backrouted; not sure how to fix at the moment. I'll be working on it right away but it might take a while...

Nepster's solution was interesting however.

[Gronkling]

Here's my solutions to the levels, their all for the first version APART from Simon's R1 and ColourfulArty's R1. All of them are solved on NeoLemmix_Exp 1.44-D & Lix 2016-01-31

Comments (click to show/hide)

Apjjm R3 (click to show/hide)

Nice level, harder than it looks! My solution has lots of spare skills but I like it The objects don't cause the most difficulty in this level.

BulletRide R1 (click to show/hide)

Very nice basic idea, wrapped into a simple level. Was both one of the hardest and most fun levels here. The title probably makes this level seem like it's going to have an unfun solution though

BulletRide R2 (click to show/hide)

Good decoration, and easy enough.

Colourful Arty R1 (click to show/hide)

Good level exploring a single theme, though possibly a bit too long for my tastes.

Colourful Arty R2 (click to show/hide)

Too much walking, the zombies don't add enough to the level, possibly a bit too hard

Dullstar R2 (click to show/hide)

It was OK... there's basically nothing to say about this level.. I had some fun with stoners

Dullstar R3 (click to show/hide)

Easy, but a fun concept. Down facing arrows didn't contribute much.

Flopsy R1 (click to show/hide)

Nice level, building could be reduced

Flopsy R2 (click to show/hide)

Thanks for using my tileset! Possibly a bit too hard, might be better with only one entrance.

Geoo R2 (click to show/hide)

Would be a good way to teach blocking with bombers, number of lix could be reduced for less waiting time at the end.

IchoTolot R1 (click to show/hide)

A classic Icho level.. therefore good!

IchoTolot R3 (click to show/hide)

This is a stressful level for some reason, I didn't find it very fun. The downward arrows/updraft don't contribute much either, could be reduced in vertical size

Minim R2 (click to show/hide)

A bit bare decoration-wise.

Minim R3 (click to show/hide)

Probably the best use of two different objects here. The solution I found was extremely fiddly.

Möbius R1 (click to show/hide)

A bit bland in terms of decoration, lots of building too though it's not particularly unfun. Quiet easy too.

Nepster R2 (click to show/hide)

Far too hard for this rule + very tedious.

Proxima R1 (click to show/hide)

This is the only level I felt I backrouted lots. Harder than it looks.

Proxima R2 (click to show/hide)

Fun! (Nothing else to say)

Simon R2 (click to show/hide)

Hard level, very fiddly.

I didn't expect my R1 level to be this hard for people! Also my R2 level is designed to be possible with no builders.

[Dullstar]

More Reviews!

These two levels I couldn't solve:

BulletRide's Precision

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I didn't realize you could use blockers in that fashion.  I guess I learned something new today.
Interesting level idea.  I'll have to keep this technique in mind in the future.

Gronkling's Lost Umbrellas

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Almost every approach I've seen or tried for this level fails by one pixel.  Is this level intended to be pixel precise?  Can't say I'm a huge fan of pixel precision.

---

This one went okay though.

Flopsy86's Synchronised

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Good: Figuring out how to distribute skills, figuring out how to save right side.
Bad:  Seems at least some amount of precision with builders is inevitable in order to reach the right side without creating an area where lemmings can die.  I had an extra builder I could have used there, but that would have increased the amount of precision I needed to turn the builder around to reach the exit.  (I ended up using such precision, however, due to not realizing I had an extra builder).

The replay attached is for Synchronised.
UPDATE:  I think this solution only works in the original version.  I'll have to try again on the updated one.

---------

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:
Gronkling, I don't think your solution for Across the Ball Pit works in v2.  However, I will soon make an update restoring it (or at least something really close to it).  v2 replaced some of the skills (including the stoners) with the three digging tools.  In testing, the miner couldn't be applied as well as the digger or the basher, so I'll replace the miners with the stoners when I release v3.

EDIT 2:  Update released.

EDIT 3:  I just noticed that none of the replays for Lem-17 Bomber turn around the lemming to bash through the one-way-wall like I'd intended, but I don't think there's any good way to force it without a substantial redesign to the layout so I'm just going to leave it.  For some reason I never thought of the fact that you could use just the builder to do it .
For reference, I'd intended for to use a bomber to turn around.  The builder was supposed to be to allow lemmings to get back up to the exit.

[IchoTolot]

Finally solved Gronklings level and I must say it's an excellent level!
Seeing the solution afterwards it isn't really that complicated (still hard though as you need to see several things), but you have to see that little trick to save that one skill    add some ways that almost work and get ready to be stucked.
I can see now why Gronkling was surprised on how nobody managed to solve it.

Replay attached.    But please try to solve it regulary, I know you are able to!

Video will be uploaded later today as well.   EDIT: It's up now

[namida]

Here's my replays for the Lix R1 levels. Comments / etc will be in the video as usual, but in short I'll say: Two very nice levels here!

EDIT: Video is up now, link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr81nXEZ7H4

[bulletride]

Finally beat Gronklings level as well after taking a few days break from it. Amazing job at stumping so many people for so long! Great level!

[Gronkling]

That's slightly different to the intended solution, but it uses the main trick so it's fine Ichotolot has the perfect intended one.

[Simon]

Gronkling's solution to Long Division: Your solution avoids the main idea, and you find an alternative solution instead. Well done.

Long Division is already at the hard end, so I'd like to leave in your alternative solution.

To find my main idea by yourself, restrict yourself as follows (click to show/hide)

Assign batter only to lix at the topmost level.

My main idea (click to show/hide)

My main idea is that you must bat 3 times on top level, to push one lix far enough. To see how to do this, watch the intended solution attached to the v25 update post, or do this:
* let the 1st lix, A, from the rightmost hatch walk onwards
* dig with the 2nd lix, B, from the rightmost hatch
* when this digger clusters with another lix, C, bat both forward by an unrelated lix
* assign batter to A, pushing B and C forward even further
* assign batter to B, pushing C forward even further
* create the route with C

You don't bat 3 timse on the top level, but instead stall the crowd on the intermediate level. That's inventive, too, and gives enough time to finish the level in peace. You need to spam diggers, but you have enough.

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

Finally solved Gronklings level and I must say it's an excellent level!
Seeing the solution afterwards it isn't really that complicated (still hard though as you need to see several things), but you have to see that little trick to save that one skill    add some ways that almost work and get ready to be stucked.
I can see now why Gronkling was surprised on how nobody managed to solve it.

Replay attached.    But please try to solve it regulary, I know you are able to!

Video will be uploaded later today as well.   EDIT: It's up now

Oh wow.  I can see why I didn't think of

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

using the builder there but how did I not think of using the terrain on the left side to get up to the ceiling?

[namida]

Here's my replays for Rule 2. Once the video finishes uploading / processing, video for NL levels is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5pdpS_AIp8

I did attempt to record video for the Lix levels too, but it messed up (it has intact audio, but the visual is frozen at the menu screen). So for those, the replays and some text comments will have to do.

All of the levels (both NL and Lix), I 100%ed the first time without even really trying too hard to do so, with the exception of geoo's level. This one didn't give me too much difficulty once I noticed something...

Proxima's "A Necklace Of Raindrops" (click to show/hide)

A nice level, but nothing too special. Very easy to 100%.

geoo's "Marching Band" (click to show/hide)

Very easy to solve. However, as I said, it's the only one I didn't 100% the first time around. Once I realised that all that was required to 100% was slightly desyncing the two groups from each other, and maybe using walkers to save a few stragglers, it wasn't so bad.

[namida]

I missed the updates to both of Colorful Arty's levels in the NXP; so if you're using that, please redownload to be sure you have the latest versions of these levels (I also double-checked the other levels at the same time, I don't think I missed any others).

This only affects the NXP, the zip of LVL files was updated correctly.

[IchoTolot]

I've uploaded a video showing the intentional ways of my entires + some commentary on my thoughts while creating the levels. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJOz0k3B98s

[namida]

Updates are now closed. Voting will open in 4 days.

Due to the large number of levels, some thought also needs to go into how the voting should be handled. In particular, how should the initial round be divided - two groups? Three groups? Maybe four? And how should it be divided - by rule, or just at random?

One possible idea is to have a voteoff for each rule, then put the winning levels (or perhaps the top two levels even) into a final round.

[Apjjm]

Replay of my solution to my own level.

Comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can quite freely switch the miner & digger around to achieve the same result, which some of the solutions here did. It is also possible get one or two of the buttons before digging if you so choose. There is intentionally a bit of leeway on the skills here so that you can create the "1 way gates" however you want.

[mobius]

I'm not 100% sure this is okay, so if it's against the rules please disregard this; [or delete post]

my own solution to my level (in the pale moonlight)

comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most of the solutions I've seen by other people are not bad, and comments have nice, but namida and IchoTolot found pretty simple backroutes. My solutions steals two ideas from Clam and one from tseug

[namida]

The deadline for the playing phase to end has passed. I'll get the voteoff started in a few hours; until then, consider the contest to still be under playing-phase rules (so mobius's post is fine).