"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Nessy]

Sorry I wanted to write a post yesterday but I got sidetracked by work and forgot .

I like the definite talisman list and your proposers in your previous post so I have no further suggestions/changes for them.

My two cents about which ones should be gold or silver:

- ONWARD AND UPWARD: Bronze
- Have a nice day: Gold (because new players naturally use many builders so limiting the number to as low as five is Gold worthy)
- ROCKY ROAD: Bronze
- It's hero time: Silver (not Gold because some people use the no climber solution as their first solution)
- The Great Lemming Caper: Silver (not sure about this one so I said Silver)
- Final impediment: Gold

- Perseverance: Silver
- LEMTRIS: Silver (not sure about this one either)
- If At First You Don't Succeed: Silver
- Get A Little Extra Help: Bronze
- Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming: Gold (using no builders already limits a lot of things you can do, and the 10 of each skill even more)
- And Then There Were Four: Bronze (because multitasking is something people most likely do on this level already)
- Poles Apart: Silver

As for Everybody Is A Hard Nut I need to investigate this further, so I'll make another post about that later.

[Proxima]

So, it looks like we're close to agreement on the selection of 32 talismans, which I'll repost here for the convenience of having them all in one post:

Current selection of talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
Cascade: Save 100%
And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes

LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
Upside-down World: Save 100%
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Poles Apart: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

(By the way, Nepster mentioned in chat that he's too busy working on the new-formats version to give feedback on talismans.)

Looking through the list, I feel that there are a lot more medium (silver-worthy) than particularly easy or particularly hard talismans, so I don't think we'll go with either namida's 5:3:2 ratio or an even distribution. I'd rather like to have exactly 8, 16, 8 for the neat numbers, but I won't be too dogmatic about it.

Since we've started on selecting gold talismans, let's finish that off first. So far, between my list and Nessy's, we have seven:

Cascade: Save 100%
Flow Control: Save at least 14/21
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

If we want to go up to eight, I think these are the strongest candidates for the last one:

ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%. This would be my pick. It turns out that to save 100%, you have to optimise over the whole level, carefully selecting which skills to use in each part so as to have the skills you need left for other parts. It's a really hard and satisfying challenge. Nessy voted this bronze, but admitted in chat that he hadn't tried solving it himself, and underestimated the difficulty.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% no builders. Nessy (above) voted this gold, although I don't agree as it feels much easier than the other gold candidates. It's true that KYHO is a very easy level just to solve, so the talisman is a huge step above a normal solution, but perhaps that shouldn't be taken too heavily into consideration for levels at either extreme of the pack.

(Alternatively, if we change our minds and use the "100% builders and 1 floater only" talisman, this is definitely gold-worthy.)

A Beast of a level: 100% 2 of each skill. Earlier in the thread, bsmith rated "any% 3 of each skill" as already silver-worthy, and "100% 2 of each skill" is an even harder version of this. Also, it's a lot harder than solving normally, given that it's a Fun level. Still, I'm not sure myself whether this is a gold-worthy challenge.

Any preferences between these three, or alternative proposals?

[nin10doadict]

I'm not sure because I haven't really tried most of them, but Cascade 100% felt too easy to be gold to me. I figured it out in about 5 minutes. Maybe I was subconsciously drawing up a memory of the 100% solution that I had seen long ago, but that was over 10 years ago so I doubt it.
Either that or I'm actually getting better at the game but I kinda doubt that too.

[Nessy]

I say that ROCKY ROAD should be the last Gold talisman. Like you said I merely assumed and underestimated that level.

As for Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming I say to keep the "no builder" talisman. It's just a personal preference.

[Proxima]

Akseli has also been trying out the talismans, and he sent me this list of how he would rate them:

Akseli's ranking (click to show/hide)

I didn't solve yet DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Postcard from Lemmingland, The Lemming Funhouse and Come on over to my place, but I don't want to postpone you from seeing these other solutions already.

In my opinion from the easiest to the hardest (so not related to the difficulty of solving normally the level in case, but the absolute difficulty of these talisman solutions):

Bronze feeling ones:

Get a little extra help
The Crankshaft
And then there were four...
Turn around, young lemmings
Lemmings in the attic
A Spot of Bother

Maybe bronze, maybe silver:

Poles Apart
The Great Lemming Caper
If at first you don't succeed...
Upsidedown World
I have a cunning plan
The Steel Mines of Kessel

After this very similarly difficult bunch of solutions, so  the "easiest" is not very far from "hardest" so you don't need to focus on the order too much:

Flow Control
It's hero time
Have a nice day
Which one are you trying to get?
Creature Discomforts
Perseverance
Scaling the Heights
Cascade
ROCKY ROAD
ONWARD AND UPWARD
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming (no builder)
A Beast of a level
Final impediment
LEMTRIS
Across the Gap

I hadn't gotten round to posting my own opinions on which ones should be bronze, but I agree with Akseli's six except maybe Lemmings in the attic -- the digger/basher staircase is much easier to pull off in NL, but may be tricky for new players to think of. Still, if we want to have eight bronze talismans then I think we should consider that one, The Lemming Funhouse, and I have a cunning plan; the others on Akseli's "maybe bronze" list feel too difficult to me (especially The Steel Mines of Kessel, which was the last talisman I solved in the pack).

As for golds, it looks like we're agreed, at least, on Cascade, ROCKY ROAD and Final impediment, but have a lot of disagreement on the others I'm busy this week, so I'll leave it until the weekend to make a decision and post a new version. But I do want to keep this moving, as Nepster has mentioned that new-formats NL is on the horizon and he'd like to have Redux ready to ship with it; and Flopsy is looking forward to LPing the project.

[Nepster]

I just solved the 100% talisman for "The Lemming Funhouse" and I am not a fan of this one. The solution is pretty much the standard one, just a lot more fiddly and extremly precise.

[namida]

The Steel Mines Of Kessel (assuming this is still "no blockers" and still based off the Amiga version), only bronze or maybe silver? I would've rated this one Gold for sure - after all, people literally thought the level was impossible under NeoLemmix when the blockers were removed (until they were subsequently readded a few versions later). Has an easier solution been found?

[Proxima]

Yes, Akseli sent me this replay. I'm tempted to block this route off by adding steel; it would make the normal solution, as well as the talisman solution, much more interesting.

[bsmith]

If I remember correctly, the blockers were temporarily removed from The Steel Mines Of Kessel at the same time as bombers were changed to be untimed.  I think part of the uproar about the change was suddenly having to learn a new solution with the new bombers.  In hindsight having the untimed bombers makes a no-blockers solution easier to execute; it may have been gold worthy with timed bombers but not with now with untimed bombers.

Do not add steel to stop the route Akseli found.  In my opinion The Steel Mines Of Kessel is a lot like If at First You Don't Succeed.  The point is NOT to find a specific route, rather the point is just to be creative with a restricted skillset to solve the level.  In Kessel, the restriction is that your only excavator is the bomber; similarly, the restriction in Succeed is that you have fewer bashers than a straightforward solution would use.  These are levels in the original Lemmings; back then everyone, including the developers, was just trying things out and learning strategies.  Editing the levels to enforce certain routes (other than major backroute removal) undermines how they were designed.

Finally, the proposed talisman distribution of 8-16-8 bugs me a little.  I think 12-12-8 might make a nicer split.

[Proxima]

Yeah, I probably overreacted. The attached route is also possible and a lot simpler than my first solution. I think we'll just leave the level as-is and make it a silver talisman. (Also, I like the effect of the spine in the rocks; it would be a pity to spoil that with extra steel.)

* * *

I'm going to put together and release version 0.4.0 over the weekend. This is just to show where we're up to; nothing is set in stone yet except for the selection of levels. Still, I'd like to make final decisions on level ordering, backroute fixes and talismans fairly soon, so please have a look at the new version (when I post it) and tell me whether there's anything you think needs changing.

bsmith: I'm not dead set on my proposed 8-16-8 split, but if we go up to 12 bronze as you suggest, which ones should it be? At the moment my inclination (after some feedback from Nepster in chat) is to go with Akseli's six, plus If at first you don't succeed and I have a cunning plan. Given the fixes to If at first, the talisman isn't much harder than solving the level.

An alternative would be to add a couple more of the easy talismans that have been suggested, for a 12-16-8 split. How do you feel about that?

* * *

Regarding the general point: I agree that in most cases (with a few exceptions like No added colors, Fall and no life) the developers did not have a specific intended solution. Still, this is a Redux, not a flat remake; we're allowed to improve the levels if we choose. I think there are a few select cases where being more specific about what solutions are acceptable is a clear improvement to the level. Others may disagree or draw the line in a different place, and that's fine; that's why we're having the group discussions. But I can't agree that we have to stick exactly to how the original levels were designed. We agreed a long time ago on things like time limit removal, reduction of lemming counts, and making hidden traps visible; I think backroute removal is a natural and important part of the same process.

More specifically, I've thought again about If at first you don't succeed. I think the "single hero lemming" solution is trivial enough that it's important to prevent it; and I can see two ways of doing this. One is the version I've already posted, with water under the pillars (and we could add terrain blocks so they're not suspended in mid-air). The other is to use bsmith's suggested version with extra steel blocks, and reduce builders to 6. I'll see what others have to say before making a final decision or, if necessary, putting this to a poll. For now, the water version is still in 0.4.0, but this is not final.

(As already mentioned, the talisman "Save 100% with 1 basher" is still possible with only 6 builders.)

I've highlighted Everyone's a hard nut as another level in need of de-backrouting (at least, removing trivial solutions; there are still several possible ways to solve the puzzle). So far there hasn't been any feedback on this; I hope there will be.

[bsmith]

I'm not sure which ones I would put at bronze for a 12-12-8 split, but my sense of aesthetics should not dictate the distribution.  From the majority of people weighing in, it seems 8-16-8 is more natural.  I have not devoted a lot of time to the talismans myself, so I don't have a strong opinion yet.

***

I think we are butting heads since we both draw the line in different places about how far to change the original levels in the redux.  I'm not trying to say that we can't make changes but I feel since these are the classic levels that I don't want to go too far with making changes.  I am more amenable to skillset changes than terrain changes in this regard.

For If at first you don't succeed, of the two options you suggest I much prefer the one to add steel and reduce the builders to 6.  At least this way the level retains its visual appearance.

***

I just looked at your proposed changes to Everyone's a hard nut on the previous page.  Of the three options I think 1b (add a steel plate + swapping the miner to an extra basher) is the best option.

[Nepster]

Regading If at first you don't succeed: Can someone please explain why we would need to reduce the number of builders to 6, if we added steel blocks below the pillars, where the water is in the current version?

[bsmith]

Proxima wants to cut a set of solutions he considers unintended by using water under the pillars.  I believe that makes too large of a change to the level, since we do not know what if anything was intended.  My position is we should restore the original terrain and add steel under each pillar to stop the bash under everything backroute, which leaves most solutions available.  The steel + six builders is a possible compromise which stops many of the routes Proxima dislikes without making a substantial change to the level design.

[Proxima]

Specifically, the attached solution (recorded on the unmodified Taxing 1), which is just too simple and takes all the charm out of this level.

The other question I'd still like some feedback on before releasing 0.4.0: should we prevent the over-the-side solution on Dolly Dimple (by making the walls taller)? At first I thought no, but then I remembered that this solution is pretty much the same as the intended solution to Worra load of old blocks, which is just eight levels later in the Redux, and it might be worth avoiding that repetition.

[Proxima]

The other question I'd still like some feedback on before releasing 0.4.0: should we prevent the over-the-side solution on Dolly Dimple (by making the walls taller)? At first I thought no, but then I remembered that this solution is pretty much the same as the intended solution to Worra load of old blocks, which is just eight levels later in the Redux, and it might be worth avoiding that repetition.

Addendum: This change wouldn't totally prevent an over-the-side solution (think The Razor's Edge), but it would make it harder. And the Razor's Edge trick appears nowhere else in the official levels that I know of.